Should characters who queue as vet dps pass a dps check ala gran turismo licensing requirements?

LordSarevok

I say this as sub 10k dps has become a real plague. We talk about fake tanks and fake healers but dps is the reason 90% of groups fail.

LordSarevok

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

We talk about tanks being rare, this is why. I have spent countless hours and innumerable resources farming Yohln, Alkosh, Ebon, etc. Golding it all out, honing my craft, only to watch dps with resto staves light attack and execute mobs at full health. You can complete most vet activities with a fake tank and or healer. Dps is king.

Wolfpaw

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

Hard for ZOS to add a wall like that on paid content.

A real simple solution for the player is to make a premade.

CaffeinatedMayhem

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

A nanny state is not needed. Players need to have a decent estimate of their own capabilities, and/or communicate with the group they are stuck with. If it's your first time in a dungeon admit you don't know the mechanics - if you do not want to teach a noob, don't kick them - YOU leave. If you only want to run with certain level/skill of players - don't queue.

People being decent humans would go a long way.

Danksta

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

premades are a thing

stefj68

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

90% of dungeon is not dps based its mechanics based, if their is a test it should be their aptitude to follow mechanics not how huge is my ...

redspecter23

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

Should people who queue with randoms stop having expectations of them and just do the dungeon with guildmates and friends instead?

Grandchamp1989

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

LordSarevok wrote: »

I say this as sub 10k dps has become a real plague. We talk about fake tanks and fake healers but dps is the reason 90% of groups fail.

lolol I just finished Elden Hollow 1 as tank. Me and the healer did 70% of the dmg group dps was 15k
Some DPS are so horrible they resort to trolling.

I vote yes.

Honestly if you do less than 20k DPS you got no place in Vet period as a -damage dealer-, since the healer will outdamage you and you'll sit there holding the entire group hostage for 30-60 minutes.

Vet should be a privilege not a right. Hit a dummy before you can que. If you can't hit 20k on something that stands still. you sure can't do it when it fights back.
Bad DDs got normal as it fits with the content they can clear, without being carried.

We need more tanks and healers in the dungeon finder anyway, and if you can't perform your role properly, in vet anyway, maybe you can help tank or heal instead of bloating the dungeon finder with bad damage.

Kurat

Dps is not the only issue with pugs. Some can actually pull decent numbers on dummy but lack survivability, awareness or just general skill to dps while dealing with mechanics. Some dont know mechanics at all and you cant dps when you're dead. So dps check alone wouldn't help. Also it's a group effort. Alot of tanks who complain about low dps cant tank themselves and are the cause of low dps. I pug alot and half tanks in vet dlcs dont even have ranged taunt and 9 out of 10 dont use chains. Every class has access to at least leash but they instead taunt 1 and let everything else run around. Dps has to chase and kill every add individually and that lowers the dps. Then half the pug tanks cant even stay alive at certain dlc bosses and need to be rezed which lowers dps again. And then they complain about dps lmao. I'm not saying its always the case but that's my experience with pugs, theres bad players on both side, dps and support roles.

Pugging is always a lottery, if you don't wanna gamble then form your own group. No need to implement any checks.

deleted221106-002999

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

No.

The group finder is a tool for grouping random players and works (more or less) to do just that.

If you don't want random, don't use it. if you use it and don't like what you get, vote-kick or quit.

Dusk_Coven

If you're gonna do that, they should also have to pass a mechanics don't-stand-in-stupid do-the-required-mechanics check.

LordSarevok

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

A nanny state is not needed. Players need to have a decent estimate of their own capabilities, and/or communicate with the group they are stuck with. If it's your first time in a dungeon admit you don't know the mechanics - if you do not want to teach a noob, don't kick them - YOU leave. If you only want to run with certain level/skill of players - don't queue.

People being decent humans would go a long way.

You cannot teach a player to be a good dps in a dungeon run. It's literally impossible. It takes gear, skill, and a practiced rotation to be good.

LordSarevok

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

Kurat wrote: »

Dps is not the only issue with pugs. Some can actually pull decent numbers on dummy but lack survivability, awareness or just general skill to dps while dealing with mechanics. Some dont know mechanics at all and you cant dps when you're dead. So dps check alone wouldn't help. Also it's a group effort. Alot of tanks who complain about low dps cant tank themselves and are the cause of low dps. I pug alot and half tanks in vet dlcs dont even have ranged taunt and 9 out of 10 dont use chains. Every class has access to at least leash but they instead taunt 1 and let everything else run around. Dps has to chase and kill every add individually and that lowers the dps. Then half the pug tanks cant even stay alive at certain dlc bosses and need to be rezed which lowers dps again. And then they complain about dps lmao. I'm not saying its always the case but that's my experience with pugs, theres bad players on both side, dps and support roles.

Pugging is always a lottery, if you don't wanna gamble then form your own group. No need to implement any checks.

I can teach someone mechanics. That's the easy part. To be an effective dps you need to practice the rotation and have proper gear such as not having a resto staff and s/b. You talking about chains is a minimal irritant. Trash groups don't matter the boss does.

LordSarevok

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

I'm down for a license test on every class. Tank bashing, positioning, gear, taunts etc. Healer out healing damage, positioning, buffs, ect. These are rare to me though. 95 out of 100 times the fail reasoning is *** poor dps.

LordSarevok

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

Also keep in mind I'm not saying it's the players fault. Whirlwind and light attacks kill overland mobs effectively. I am also down for teaching them. But it cannot be done on the fly. Letting a fake anything into a group is a disservice to the other 3 people. I pug because I like to help people. Met 3 many year long hiatus people last night and they listened very well on vet March of Sacrifices. All 3 low CP and we beat it easily. I vet pug to help with the so often maligned fake tank issue.

LordSarevok

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Hard for ZOS to add a wall like that on paid content.

A real simple solution for the player is to make a premade.

It is a wall. It's an invisible one to the player, but a wall nonetheless. It is a disservice to that player by the game not setting expectations.

ArchMikem

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

Because I'm sure the elites would want the check to be like 45k or something outrageous to most.

spartaxoxo

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

But the requirement should be pretty low. Something like 20k on regular vet dungeons, 25k on vet dlc. If you want a fast group run a pre-made. Maybe even that's too high. Maybe 15k regular vet and 20k vet dlc.

Should be something easily accomplished if the person isn't running a healer/tank weapon and using a couple of skills.

Casul

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

Base game vet "1" dungeons 15k
Base game vet "2" dungeons 25k
Early dlc dungeon 30k
Late dlc dungeons 35k

Still leaves a lot of room but ensures a minimum requirement group can pass a clear. HM is another story.

CaffeinatedMayhem

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

LordSarevok wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

A nanny state is not needed. Players need to have a decent estimate of their own capabilities, and/or communicate with the group they are stuck with. If it's your first time in a dungeon admit you don't know the mechanics - if you do not want to teach a noob, don't kick them - YOU leave. If you only want to run with certain level/skill of players - don't queue.

People being decent humans would go a long way.

You cannot teach a player to be a good dps in a dungeon run. It's literally impossible. It takes gear, skill, and a practiced rotation to be good.

So? If you don't want "bad" DPS, don't use the finder. There. Done.

Either that or learn how to clear with low DPS. Unless it's vet DLC, it's possible, and even then, I have cleared some vet DLCs with less GROUP dps than my solo runs. It's possible, and maybe OP needs to trash his elitism instead of other people.

kargen27

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

LordSarevok wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

A nanny state is not needed. Players need to have a decent estimate of their own capabilities, and/or communicate with the group they are stuck with. If it's your first time in a dungeon admit you don't know the mechanics - if you do not want to teach a noob, don't kick them - YOU leave. If you only want to run with certain level/skill of players - don't queue.

People being decent humans would go a long way.

You cannot teach a player to be a good dps in a dungeon run. It's literally impossible. It takes gear, skill, and a practiced rotation to be good.

You can teach a player to be a better DPS/tank/healer in a dungeon run. Maybe even teach them to be good if you have enough patience. All it takes it a person willing to learn and a person willing to teach. You can't teach them to be great but you can help them on their way to getting good. If a player is simply spamming heavy attack you can ask what skills they have on their bar and suggest they hit a few in between each heavy and that will help get things going the right direction. You need to find out where they are at and help them to the next step instead of overwhelming them with a bunch of stuff they are not ready for.
We have a player in our guild that likes to help new players but he panics them because he starts talking about keeping procs up and what gear works best with what skills before they even know to bar swap.
With a random in a dungeon if you see they are struggling ask a question or two and then give some simple advice if they seem open to it. When you get through the run (or when you decide it isn't going to happen) spend a bit of time with them explaining what comes next compared to where they are at. Don't go straight to end game hard mode speed no death set-ups. Keep it closer to where they are. It doesn't take long at all with someone who wants to learn to get a noticeable improvement in a really short time.
When you get those players that refuse to learn that is when you leave the group.

spartaxoxo

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

BuildMan wrote: »

Base game vet "1" dungeons 15k
Base game vet "2" dungeons 25k
Early dlc dungeon 30k
Late dlc dungeons 35k

Still leaves a lot of room but ensures a minimum requirement group can pass a clear. HM is another story.

You don't need 35k to run any dungeon that I'm aware of. That seems way too high. Most of the playerbase is sitting at 25k or less.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

It would be a good tutorial step for many unaware players who don’t realize the jump in damage requiremenrs, myself included. A fixed goal of doing “x amount in x seconds” would really be beneficial for me. I’ve read so many different opinions on what is reasonable to expect that I have no idea what is actually required now how to get there.

Kurat

ArchMikem wrote: »

Because I'm sure the elites would want the check to be like 45k or something outrageous to most.

Exactly this. And how much dps would be the requirement. Some elitist would still insult or vote kick you if doing below 60k and some with more patience say 15k is fine. Player skill gap is too wide. Also some vet dungeons are easily doable with lower dps and some, especially HMs require more. It would be very difficult to pick the right number for the check.

spartaxoxo

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

It would be a good tutorial step for many unaware players who don’t realize the jump in damage requiremenrs, myself included. A fixed goal of doing “x amount in x seconds” would really be beneficial for me. I’ve read so many different opinions on what is reasonable to expect that I have no idea what is actually required now how to get there.

You don't need to do any of the meta stuff until you're trying to leaderboard the vet dlc trials.

LordSarevok

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

kargen27 wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

A nanny state is not needed. Players need to have a decent estimate of their own capabilities, and/or communicate with the group they are stuck with. If it's your first time in a dungeon admit you don't know the mechanics - if you do not want to teach a noob, don't kick them - YOU leave. If you only want to run with certain level/skill of players - don't queue.

People being decent humans would go a long way.

You cannot teach a player to be a good dps in a dungeon run. It's literally impossible. It takes gear, skill, and a practiced rotation to be good.

You can teach a player to be a better DPS/tank/healer in a dungeon run. Maybe even teach them to be good if you have enough patience. All it takes it a person willing to learn and a person willing to teach. You can't teach them to be great but you can help them on their way to getting good. If a player is simply spamming heavy attack you can ask what skills they have on their bar and suggest they hit a few in between each heavy and that will help get things going the right direction. You need to find out where they are at and help them to the next step instead of overwhelming them with a bunch of stuff they are not ready for.
We have a player in our guild that likes to help new players but he panics them because he starts talking about keeping procs up and what gear works best with what skills before they even know to bar swap.
With a random in a dungeon if you see they are struggling ask a question or two and then give some simple advice if they seem open to it. When you get through the run (or when you decide it isn't going to happen) spend a bit of time with them explaining what comes next compared to where they are at. Don't go straight to end game hard mode speed no death set-ups. Keep it closer to where they are. It doesn't take long at all with someone who wants to learn to get a noticeable improvement in a really short time.
When you get those players that refuse to learn that is when you leave the group.

So in the dungeon run, I'm to help farm actual dps gear, help level the good dps abilities up, and help them practice the rotation till they become semi proficient? Sounds reasonable... Should only take 2 to 3 weeks.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Only if healer pass a heal check and thank a tank check

It would only be fair

Bobby_V_Rockit

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

It would be a good tutorial step for many unaware players who don’t realize the jump in damage requiremenrs, myself included. A fixed goal of doing “x amount in x seconds” would really be beneficial for me. I’ve read so many different opinions on what is reasonable to expect that I have no idea what is actually required now how to get there.

You don't need to do any of the meta stuff until you're trying to leaderboard the vet dlc trials.

Of course, but I also do not like to waste other players time, especially if what I can achieve is not enough to clear the content reliably in the first place. I’ve gotten to bosses before and just not had enough output to clear it. It’d be good to know this before queuing up to begin with.

spartaxoxo

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

It would be a good tutorial step for many unaware players who don’t realize the jump in damage requiremenrs, myself included. A fixed goal of doing “x amount in x seconds” would really be beneficial for me. I’ve read so many different opinions on what is reasonable to expect that I have no idea what is actually required now how to get there.

You don't need to do any of the meta stuff until you're trying to leaderboard the vet dlc trials.

Of course, but I also do not like to waste other players time, especially if what I can achieve is not enough to clear the content reliably in the first place. I’ve gotten to bosses before and just not had enough output to clear it. It’d be good to know this before queuing up to begin with.

35-40k will let you comfortably clear all content except vet-dlc trials. And the vast majority of it, pretty quickly too.

Everything beyond that is just about making vet dlc trials doable or score pushing.

Casul

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

Base game vet "1" dungeons 15k
Base game vet "2" dungeons 25k
Early dlc dungeon 30k
Late dlc dungeons 35k

Still leaves a lot of room but ensures a minimum requirement group can pass a clear. HM is another story.

You don't need 35k to run any dungeon that I'm aware of. That seems way too high. Most of the playerbase is sitting at 25k or less.

I say that number because many vet dlc dungeons have punishing mechanics. 35k makes it so you won't have to manage these mechanics for too long. I think you could probably manage then with 25k but the number was just for a safeguard.

Honestly I think this whole concept stems on people getting carried through dungeons and not realizing they are, then when they attempt them again they get kicked or get gated on a boss. The result is threads that talk about a "toxic" player base for endgame content or requests to lower the difficulty of said content. Both hold little justification to me.

There are plenty of people who have out the time and effort into hitting reasonable DPS numbers. No reason other people can't do the same.

spartaxoxo

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

BuildMan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

Base game vet "1" dungeons 15k
Base game vet "2" dungeons 25k
Early dlc dungeon 30k
Late dlc dungeons 35k

Still leaves a lot of room but ensures a minimum requirement group can pass a clear. HM is another story.

You don't need 35k to run any dungeon that I'm aware of. That seems way too high. Most of the playerbase is sitting at 25k or less.

There are plenty of people who have out the time and effort into hitting reasonable DPS numbers. No reason other people can't do the same.

I disagree with that. As a Playstation user, the number of people that can hit those numbers and get clears in that content is already very low. And I know that from the trophies. And you're not gonna incentivize anyone to get better by not giving them a chance to work through content that's a challenge. Getting your behind handed to you and wanting to come back stronger is a very common motivation in gamers. I wouldn't want to deny people that.

I think the number shouldn't be set at something comfortable and fast that caters to the like 1% that have the time or ability to constantly push forward. The cream will always rise to the top anyway.

It should just be high enough that the content is doable if people are willing to put in the time and energy to learn mechanics of the dungeon. It shouldn't be done on the premise you should be skipping mechanics.

And I honestly can't think of any dungeon that needs more than 25k for that.