Should characters who queue as vet dps pass a dps check ala gran turismo licensing requirements?

Wyrd88

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

The results of this poll is a bit sad tbh.

novemberhhh wrote: »

Lol just scrolling through here you can tell whos doing the carrying, and who the carries are.

^
Pretty much this.

Raideen

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

Tabbycat wrote: »

Let's keep this game as non-elitist as possible.

It's already there. In my anecdotal observation, this game is the most elitist of any MMO I have played in length. Mostly because the DPS disparity is HUGE. Most other MMO's the DPS disparity is closer together.

It appears to me that the design of the game itself cultivates the elitist attitude I have seen in many.

zvavi

TradoTheOne wrote: »

I would vote for, players who are comming to vet have to complete the norm version first, before trying vet.. mechanic knowledge is king.

I call meh on your comment, normal teaches you nothing and I do not plan on doing all normal dungeons to be able to queue for vet on every character.

Now towards the original post, we don't need tests, we need something that allows people to learn. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/524205/the-undaunted-certification-zvavi-is-bored-in-quarantine
for example.

ThePedge

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

Will there be similar tests for tanks to make sure they can taunt, interrupt and stack mobs?

Would say healer too but at this point healer is a DD with a Resto staff.

AlnilamE

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

The thing is, if ZOS did that, they would have to do it only for actual DPS checks, and people would be shocked at how low the actual requirement would be.

idk

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

Raideen wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

Let's keep this game as non-elitist as possible.

It's already there. In my anecdotal observation, this game is the most elitist of any MMO I have played in length. Mostly because the DPS disparity is HUGE. Most other MMO's the DPS disparity is closer together.

It appears to me that the design of the game itself cultivates the elitist attitude I have seen in many.

Most good players could care less about the DPS found with random GF groups. Most of them have avenues to put together good groups of players for fast and smooth dungeon runs. It is called guilds. Those that do use the GF can carry another DPS through many dungeons. Heck, many can go as a healer can carry the entire group.

As someone who often queues with good players but leaves a slot open so we can see what we find as we can I think it is pointless to have a DPS check as there are too many factors involved. Sometimes we do get a decent player to fill out our group, but often the DPS is low and they keep dying. Not surprisingly, melee players found in the GF are often the worst offenders as they keep dying to the same avoidable PBAoEs. Instead of using a bow they run back into melee range and die again. We are nice to allow them to observe the remainder of the fight from the flat of their back.

There are options that are much better than a simplistic DPS check. FF14 has trials/tutorials for players based on role and it works quite well because boss fights tend to not be a DPS check since they have mechanics that need to be dealt with or avoided.

Beyond that, if you want to set specific requirements for your dungeon group then form your own group. It works well and is something a great many players have been doing successfully for years.

Brockahly

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

20-25k dps minimum limit for vet dungeons, there are so many build guides and rotation guides out there so those numbers aren’t hard to hit. A lot of the content relies both on mechanical knowledge and to actually have the DPS to pass it. I’ve Tanked more dungeons than I have DPS’ed and I can say how damn frustrating it is having a competent tank and healer being paired with 2 dps who put out a combined total of 15k. At the end of the day more dps = less mechanics you work through.

Raideen

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

idk wrote: »

Most good players could care less about the DPS found with random GF groups. Most of them have avenues to put together good groups of players for fast and smooth dungeon runs. It is called guilds. Those that do use the GF can carry another DPS through many dungeons. Heck, many can go as a healer can carry the entire group.

That has not been my experience. I have been called out on numerous occasions for not pulling at least 45% of the damage. In fact my GF will not even touch a vet due to the abuse we have received.

idk wrote: »

As someone who often queues with good players but leaves a slot open so we can see what we find as we can I think it is pointless to have a DPS check as there are too many factors involved. Sometimes we do get a decent player to fill out our group, but often the DPS is low and they keep dying. Not surprisingly, melee players found in the GF are often the worst offenders as they keep dying to the same avoidable PBAoEs. Instead of using a bow they run back into melee range and die again. We are nice to allow them to observe the remainder of the fight from the flat of their back.

I voted "NO" to the DPS check, not sure of the relevance of this part of your post.

idk wrote: »

There are options that are much better than a simplistic DPS check. FF14 has trials/tutorials for players based on role and it works quite well because boss fights tend to not be a DPS check since they have mechanics that need to be dealt with or avoided.

I voted "NO" to the DPS check, not sure of the relevance of this part of your post.

idk wrote: »

Beyond that, if you want to set specific requirements for your dungeon group then form your own group. It works well and is something a great many players have been doing successfully for years.

I voted "NO" to the DPS check, not sure of the relevance of this part of your post.

xI_The_Owl_Ix

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

ArchMikem wrote: »

Because I'm sure the elites would want the check to be like 45k or something outrageous to most.

45k on the trial dummy isnt outrageous. I was hitting that with my heavy attack 3 button mag sorc.

I like tanking but I hate queueing as a tank in the random finder, I had a vet maarselok run (non hm) which took 2h with 3DDs and 1Tank. Quite frankly I dont understand how people hit that low. Having DPS checks would make tank mains actually use the finder instead of grouping per guild/zone and therefore more people would be using the finder. Its a win-win imo.

Djennku

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

We don't need a dps requirement assessment. Who would be the ones setting the requirements for this? The average player does about 10k dps (Note I said average, which includes all 12+ million people who log in, and not just the competitive and 'elitist' players), and it would be extremely unfair to a vast majority if they absolutely had to do X amount of damage or they couldn't participate.

As a fact, you don't need very high or even ridiculous levels of dps to complete content, and aside from the very few dps checks in the game, you only need about 28k group (Yes, I said group) dps to beat harder content like vAS+2, and doing 25-30k in content yourself will get you through pretty much everything. This is of course if you follow the mechanics like they are intended instead of trying to skip them.

Sendirra

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

Passing a parse =/= knowing the mechanics.

Last week I passed the 55k dps mark. But I don't have the knowledge about the more recent vet dungeons (any dungeon since elsweyr was introduced) - yesterday we went with some guildmembers on vet lair of maarselok... As some of us were "learning by doing", it still took us more than an hour to complete it.

What I want to say is - you may have the damage, but if you lack knowledge, the damage means nothing...

AinSoph

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

Unfortunately, premade groups are a weak argument because it's possible for even one person to not know what they are doing or someone not fulfilling their role efficiently to wipe the entire group, not to mention it's even possible for someone with 5 guilds to not even fill a 4-man group and end up recruiting from zone anyways.

spartaxoxo

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

Sendirra wrote: »

Passing a parse =/= knowing the mechanics.

Last week I passed the 55k dps mark. But I don't have the knowledge about the more recent vet dungeons (any dungeon since elsweyr was introduced) - yesterday we went with some guildmembers on vet lair of maarselok... As some of us were "learning by doing", it still took us more than an hour to complete it.

What I want to say is - you may have the damage, but if you lack knowledge, the damage means nothing...

Anyone can not know mechanics, but a person with 7k dps will not be able to break the bubble if someone is trapped inside of it in Vet MHK while the person with 25k dps can.

A dps check is not for determining if someone knows mechanics or not. It's about determining if they have the capability to meet the raw minimum mechanical requirements of their role.

LashanW

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

Djennku wrote: »

We don't need a dps requirement assessment. Who would be the ones setting the requirements for this? The average player does about 10k dps (Note I said average, which includes all 12+ million people who log in, and not just the competitive and 'elitist' players), and it would be extremely unfair to a vast majority if they absolutely had to do X amount of damage or they couldn't participate.

Your kind of average player don't belong in veteran content (which is a small portion of the game compared to the rest). The only thing needed to do more than 10k (single target dps on a standard target) is willingness to learn. If they can't bother to have that, they can stay in normal content (which is a massive portion of the game).

Djennku wrote: »

you only need about 28k group (Yes, I said group) dps to beat harder content like vAS+2

28k group dps in vAS+2? wut?

Sendirra wrote: »

What I want to say is - you may have the damage, but if you lack knowledge, the damage means nothing...

True, I have seen high dps players who absolutely have no clue about mechanics. I have also seen very low dps players fail mechanics a lot. But I have never seen a DPS player that handles mechanic very well but can't do more than 10k dps on single target. I don't think any player good with mechanics will get locked out of veteran dungeons because of a small dps check. A small dps check will however, prevent freeloaders looking to get carried from getting in veteran queues.

spartaxoxo

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

LashanW wrote: »

Djennku wrote: »

We don't need a dps requirement assessment. Who would be the ones setting the requirements for this? The average player does about 10k dps (Note I said average, which includes all 12+ million people who log in, and not just the competitive and 'elitist' players), and it would be extremely unfair to a vast majority if they absolutely had to do X amount of damage or they couldn't participate.

Your kind of average player don't belong in veteran content (which is a small portion of the game compared to the rest). The only thing needed to do more than 10k (single target dps on a standard target) is willingness to learn. If they can't bother to have that, they can stay in normal content (which is a massive portion of the game).

Djennku wrote: »

you only need about 28k group (Yes, I said group) dps to beat harder content like vAS+2

28k group dps in vAS+2? wut?

Sendirra wrote: »

What I want to say is - you may have the damage, but if you lack knowledge, the damage means nothing...

True, I have seen high dps players who absolutely have no clue about mechanics. I have also seen very low dps players fail mechanics a lot. But I also have never seen a DPS player that handles mechanic very well but can't do more than 10k dps on single target. I don't think any player good with mechanics will get locked out of veteran dungeons because of a small dps check. A small dps check will however, prevent freeloaders looking to get carried from getting in veteran queues.

I also want to say that I have never seen a dps with 10k dps be good at vet mechanics beyond stack and burn. If you don't even want to use one skill regularly (which at least push you to like 12-15k dps) you're probably not interested in learning dungeon mechanics either.

MerguezMan

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

1) How do you build such test ?
Is it a one-time certificate, like a tutorial you have to go through with each character ?
Is it a kind of trial dummy you have to beat each time you apply to dungeon queue ?
Does a skill point reset also resets this test ? Mundus boon change ?

2) What is the bottom limit ?
Some players may tell you 25-30k is totally fine. Some will tell you 75-80k is a minimum standard.
That's a huge gap. And the vet dungeon themselves have different settings, if you compare vanilla and DLC dungeons.

3) What about gear and skill swap ?
Imagine the bottom limit is 60k. Your DPS char hits that with given gear and skill set.
You may use different gear and skills to wander overland while queued for dungeon (so you run faster collecting ressources while having to wait 45+ min). Ofc the farming setting doesn't have the same DPS potency as dungeon setting.
So can you still queue in farming setting ?
That limit also accounts for some given food/drink/potion equipped. What if you change these ? What if you run out of these ?
Once in the dungeon, do you allow gear and skill swap ?

4) What about other roles ?
Why apply for a test only for DPS ? Fake tanks and healers are also a thing. How do you test that ?
Same as previous questions for these roles.

Sanguinor2

Djennku wrote: »

As a fact, you don't need very high or even ridiculous levels of dps to complete content, and aside from the very few dps checks in the game, you only need about 28k group (Yes, I said group) dps to beat harder content like vAS+2, and doing 25-30k in content yourself will get you through pretty much everything. This is of course if you follow the mechanics like they are intended instead of trying to skip them.

How can you do this to your tanks? They are people too.
That aside with 28k group dps you spend 53 seconds on each protector assuming that every dd focuses it. Even longer if you get maimed by Felms, if a protector spawns during jump and storm after you are likely not even killing it in 90 seconds to avoid the 2nd protector spawning.
I also really doubt that you all can stay alive for 6 minutes+ per mini boss. Since they enrage after 3 minutes a mini that is alive at 5 min+ will be enrage stage 4 or higher and oneshot your healers with jumps and your tanks with 1 unblocked light attack aswell as any dd with any damage he has.
And finally you will spend 1 hour (not counting times where you focus minis and protectors so more like 2 hours or more) trying to kill Olms in a trial that was intended to be cleared in around 15 to 20 minutes when it released over 2 years ago (basing this off of the 15 min speedrun timer).

So yeah very much doubt on clearing vAS+2 with 28k group dps since there is no world where you can kill a mini boss before it reaches max enrage and at max enrage you literally cannot avoid deaths, its atcually impossible for your healers not to die there unless they run away and let dds and tanks die to the enraged jumps of felms, at max enrage llothis cone will also oneshot anyone that stands in it btw so thats a lot of unavoidable deaths too since llothis will be enraged for 3 min or more with 28k group dps and if one interrupt is off the whole group will be dead anyway.

On second thought all those times I gave you are way too generous since there is 1 protector spawn every 15 seconds or so so that means you have 15 seconds to damage the main and mini bosses before spending the next minute trying to kill the protector that just spawned. You would actually, if you kill protectors when they spawn, spend over 30 minutes on each mini boss alone, that makes 27+ minutes of enraged mini bosses there is no way anyone can survive that.
Another fun fact: with 28k group dps it would take you about 4 hours to kill all protectors that would spawn if you would only focus protectors and main boss and had no downtime because of mechanics. That makes a 5+hours vAS+0 clear. Have fun with that.

I would very much appreciate seeing a 28k group dps vAS+2 clear, the strats to stay alive for 27 minutes of enraged mini bosses must be very interesting and might enable other groups to ignore mini bosses entirely

Ei8htba11

Content people paid for shouldn't be held hostage because of some kind of 'licence' to carry on into the dungeon.

Sure it can be frustrating to take a long time in content because the group you ended up with isn't what you were expecting, but the Dungeon finder isn't the place for having expectations, premades are for that (especially if speed farming for an item). You go in knowing what YOUR strengths are, the rest is just the luck of the draw.

Or, maybe we can have some sort of YOLO check on over eager DPS? Tanking, I've seen many overconfident DD's run off and get wrecked at the first pull because they thought they could burn through mechanics.

Grandchamp1989

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

Content people paid for shouldn't be held hostage because of some kind of 'licence' to carry on into the dungeon.

Sure it can be frustrating to take a long time in content because the group you ended up with isn't what you were expecting, but the Dungeon finder isn't the place for having expectations, premades are for that (especially if speed farming for an item). You go in knowing what YOUR strengths are, the rest is just the luck of the draw.

Or, maybe we can have some sort of YOLO check on over eager DPS? Tanking, I've seen many overconfident DD's run off and get wrecked at the first pull because they thought they could burn through mechanics.

But progression is in every game.. ever.

You have to reach a certain strength or learn certain skills before you can proceed to the next level.
In Mario, Sonic you name it there's mechanics in place you have to learn to get to the next level.
In solo games you simply will not be able to proceed if you don't learn say a .. double jump. You'll be stuck.

Difference here being ESO is "group content" some people are very lazy and want to be carried through these levels to proceed to content they simply, and quite frankly, aren't good enough to do on their own or with a group on their skill level.

The only hostages are the ones these lazy people gets grouped with. These poor fellas are now forced to drag dead weight through a 45 minute to 2 hour dungeon and by the end of it they may have to abandon it because someone feel entitled to get the rewards without putting in the work and the hours.

Lalothen

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

Like others have said, if you're concerned about DPS capabilities then use a premade group for that particular content. You want to pug vet DLCs, then you risk being paired with underperforming players.

Also perhaps try offering to help those players improve their gameplay? It's all well and good getting frustrated and demanding automatic checks, but if you're not at least offering to spend a bit of your time working with a player so that they're more capable in future, then you're not actually doing anything about the problem, are you.

OOJIMMY

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

15k dps should be the minimum.

All these people defending DPS that can't dps have no right to complain about fake tanks.

Jaimeh

I'd just be happy if the tanks had a taunt

CMDR_Un1k0rn

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

I'll just stick to tanking for pre-mades thanks.

Elwendryll

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

People should be allowed to be inexperienced, or even bad, and still experience the content. Clearing is an other thing. When I queue I don't have any expectations. If the people I run with are willing to learn, I teach them, otherwise, I'll still make my best to guarantee a clear with what we have.

It's a random group composition, if you're not confident you can guarantee a clear no matter what comes at you, bring a friend.

But a dps check is really not needed, it's not an issue to have a 5k dps dd if the other is getting the job done.

If the group finder doesn't meet your requirements anymore, join a guild.

Ei8htba11

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

But progression is in every game.. ever.

You have to reach a certain strength or learn certain skills before you can proceed to the next level.
In Mario, Sonic you name it there's mechanics in place you have to learn to get to the next level.
In solo games you simply will not be able to proceed if you don't learn say a .. double jump. You'll be stuck.

Difference here being ESO is "group content" some people are very lazy and want to be carried through these levels to proceed to content they simply, and quite frankly, aren't good enough to do on their own or with a group on their skill level.

The only hostages are the ones these lazy people gets grouped with. These poor fellas are now forced to drag dead weight through a 45 minute to 2 hour dungeon and by the end of it they may have to abandon it because someone feel entitled to get the rewards without putting in the work and the hours.

Not saying there isn't/shouldn't be progression. There are also tools built into the game to make sure you have a group that can do the content you wish to do (guilds, premades, friends list of like minded/skilled players). PUGs are literally the last resort for doing content, unfortunately for a lot of people are in this situation either because of skills/ability, or not wanting to join a guild (for which ever of many reasons I can think of right now). They shouldn't be excluded from content for not passing an ePeen test. I've gone through dungeons with players who weren't necessarily geared or skilled for the content, and to be honest, it's sometimes more fun figuring out how to get through it with them than blasting through with little to no effort.

Frankly, the content itself can sort the wheat from the chaff. You can either do it, or you can't. Players that can't, having now seen it, know what to aim for... there's valuable information to be gained from failing a run. I'm constantly raising my bar. Try the content, get wrecked, analyse, come back and try again. A DPS test won't allow players to see what they are up against, and raise their own standards accordingly. Training dummies don't fight back or summon adds, you need real experience to progress.

Pajor

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

As long as you have one dps that is good you can do it. Whats annoying to me is tanks that constantly run around with the adds and you can never cast an aoe because of it.

Sanguinor2

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

Content people paid for shouldn't be held hostage because of some kind of 'licence' to carry on into the dungeon.

No one is being denied content. Normal and Veteran is the same content only in different difficulties and with different rewards.

svendf

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

LashanW wrote: »

x48rph wrote: »

Plenty of people can punch buttons really fast on a target dummy and get those high numbers

Punching buttons really fast is how you lose dps actually. Because of global cooldowns. Plenty of skilled people don't reach very high dps because of fast button mashing, even if they have best gear and max CP. But I get what you are trying to say about high dps players that are absolutely clueless about every aspect other than dps.

kathandira wrote: »

Nah.

If you queue for a Random Group, you should expect to either roll with what you get, or leave and try again. It is a gamble for sure, but it is the intent of the functionality.

If you want a specific quality of group, then you have to pre-make your own.

This is an irresponsible way of thinking imo (for vet content). I mean I can queue as DD for a vet dungeon with no set items and no weapons equipped and try to kill enemies in a vet dungeon with my bare hands. Very irresponsible and no contribution to the team. And when confronted I can just say "go make a pre-made group if you have even a basic expectation from someone who queued for a vet dungeon, I play how I want." Sure I will get kicked, but I'd have wasted time of 3 other people.

The last you mention about fighting bare hands. I´m sure it´s called griefing

Tsar_Gekkou

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

I think a lot of people are just missing the point. This is about vet dungeons. Low dps people can still queue for normal to get the exact same quests and dungeon experience. They aren't missing out on much of anything just doing normal.

Michaelkeir

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

I disagree with a DPS check. Now hear me out. I main tank. I’ve cleared just about all dungeons and vet dlc HM dungeons mostly through pugs. I’ve got 5 different tanks and I run pugs daily because it can be interesting at times and you meet new people that way. (But I do have a group of friends who clear vet HM dungeons with for skins and achievements)

Yes I run into those low DPS archetypes. You know the ones; the light attack spammer, the snipe/crystal frag spammer, the stand in stupid one, the sword and board DPS, or the ice staff heavy attack spammer who pulls the boss off me and then runs around the room. So I more then understand most people’s pain points about low DPS. But as others have stated, just form your own groups if you don’t like randoms. It’s in the name Random group finder. If you must use a pug finder, either vote to kick the DPS or leave. The solution is already there.

I hate low DPS as much as the next guy, but you are talking about blocking people from content that they more then likely are PAYING for either though monthly subs or paid for the dlc outright. That’s crazy. If they can’t complete it because of low DPS, well sucks for them, but it’s their right to access it since they are paying to access it, not clear it.

ZoS will not ok this train of thought. Want to know why? MONEY. If they placed DPS blocks on content, most of the people (with low DPS) could not access it. Meaning they would not pay for dlc or monthly subs. And as we all know, ZoS loves their money. They aren’t going to give up the cash just because some people want a smooth run in a random dungeon, especially since you can form your own groups.

As for me, I’m a firm believer in giving people a chance. If we in vMHK and they slow on the trash mobs, I wait until the boss fight before I bounce. If we wipe over and over, I try and watch what each person is doing to see what the problem is. If I see it I’ll vote to kick, if that fails I’ll drop group and grab my other tank and que up again. But even I have limits. If I’m in vCoA or a base game dungeon and it takes 2 minutes to clear the first trash mob, I’m out right then and there. Because I know from experience that this is going to take a while if they struggling in a base game vet dungeon.

Just my 2 cents.