Should characters who queue as vet dps pass a dps check ala gran turismo licensing requirements?

Casul

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

Base game vet "1" dungeons 15k
Base game vet "2" dungeons 25k
Early dlc dungeon 30k
Late dlc dungeons 35k

Still leaves a lot of room but ensures a minimum requirement group can pass a clear. HM is another story.

You don't need 35k to run any dungeon that I'm aware of. That seems way too high. Most of the playerbase is sitting at 25k or less.

There are plenty of people who have out the time and effort into hitting reasonable DPS numbers. No reason other people can't do the same.

I disagree with that. As a Playstation user, the number of people that can hit those numbers and get clears in that content is already very low. And I know that from the trophies. And you're not gonna incentivize anyone to get better by not giving them a chance to work through content that's a challenge. Getting your behind handed to you and wanting to come back stronger is a very common motivation in gamers. I wouldn't want to deny people that.

I think the number shouldn't be set at something comfortable and fast that caters to the like 1% that have the time or ability to constantly push forward. The cream will always rise to the top anyway.

It should just be high enough that the content is doable if people are willing to put in the time and energy to learn mechanics of the dungeon. It shouldn't be done on the premise you should be skipping mechanics.

And I honestly can't think of any dungeon that needs more than 25k for that.

Ok then let's go with lower values.

10k
15k
20k
25k

spartaxoxo

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

BuildMan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

Base game vet "1" dungeons 15k
Base game vet "2" dungeons 25k
Early dlc dungeon 30k
Late dlc dungeons 35k

Still leaves a lot of room but ensures a minimum requirement group can pass a clear. HM is another story.

You don't need 35k to run any dungeon that I'm aware of. That seems way too high. Most of the playerbase is sitting at 25k or less.

There are plenty of people who have out the time and effort into hitting reasonable DPS numbers. No reason other people can't do the same.

I disagree with that. As a Playstation user, the number of people that can hit those numbers and get clears in that content is already very low. And I know that from the trophies. And you're not gonna incentivize anyone to get better by not giving them a chance to work through content that's a challenge. Getting your behind handed to you and wanting to come back stronger is a very common motivation in gamers. I wouldn't want to deny people that.

I think the number shouldn't be set at something comfortable and fast that caters to the like 1% that have the time or ability to constantly push forward. The cream will always rise to the top anyway.

It should just be high enough that the content is doable if people are willing to put in the time and energy to learn mechanics of the dungeon. It shouldn't be done on the premise you should be skipping mechanics.

And I honestly can't think of any dungeon that needs more than 25k for that.

Ok then let's go with lower values.

10k
15k
20k
25k

Those seem pretty fair. Perhaps it could be simplified to 15k base game vets, 25k dlc vets. But overall those seem pretty good. Ensures the person can do it but doesn't put a number that will exclude too many people.

Kurat

BuildMan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

Base game vet "1" dungeons 15k
Base game vet "2" dungeons 25k
Early dlc dungeon 30k
Late dlc dungeons 35k

Still leaves a lot of room but ensures a minimum requirement group can pass a clear. HM is another story.

You don't need 35k to run any dungeon that I'm aware of. That seems way too high. Most of the playerbase is sitting at 25k or less.

There are plenty of people who have out the time and effort into hitting reasonable DPS numbers. No reason other people can't do the same.

I disagree with that. As a Playstation user, the number of people that can hit those numbers and get clears in that content is already very low. And I know that from the trophies. And you're not gonna incentivize anyone to get better by not giving them a chance to work through content that's a challenge. Getting your behind handed to you and wanting to come back stronger is a very common motivation in gamers. I wouldn't want to deny people that.

I think the number shouldn't be set at something comfortable and fast that caters to the like 1% that have the time or ability to constantly push forward. The cream will always rise to the top anyway.

It should just be high enough that the content is doable if people are willing to put in the time and energy to learn mechanics of the dungeon. It shouldn't be done on the premise you should be skipping mechanics.

And I honestly can't think of any dungeon that needs more than 25k for that.

Ok then let's go with lower values.

10k
15k
20k
25k

That's what pugs are currently hitting lol. If you wanna implement dps check and they are required to pull 20k on dummy that doesn't move and no mechanics to deal with then in actual dungeon t6he will be doing 10k lmao. Sounds about right.

spartaxoxo

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

Kurat wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

Base game vet "1" dungeons 15k
Base game vet "2" dungeons 25k
Early dlc dungeon 30k
Late dlc dungeons 35k

Still leaves a lot of room but ensures a minimum requirement group can pass a clear. HM is another story.

You don't need 35k to run any dungeon that I'm aware of. That seems way too high. Most of the playerbase is sitting at 25k or less.

There are plenty of people who have out the time and effort into hitting reasonable DPS numbers. No reason other people can't do the same.

I disagree with that. As a Playstation user, the number of people that can hit those numbers and get clears in that content is already very low. And I know that from the trophies. And you're not gonna incentivize anyone to get better by not giving them a chance to work through content that's a challenge. Getting your behind handed to you and wanting to come back stronger is a very common motivation in gamers. I wouldn't want to deny people that.

I think the number shouldn't be set at something comfortable and fast that caters to the like 1% that have the time or ability to constantly push forward. The cream will always rise to the top anyway.

It should just be high enough that the content is doable if people are willing to put in the time and energy to learn mechanics of the dungeon. It shouldn't be done on the premise you should be skipping mechanics.

And I honestly can't think of any dungeon that needs more than 25k for that.

Ok then let's go with lower values.

10k
15k
20k
25k

That's what pugs are currently hitting lol. If you wanna implement dps check and they are required to pull 20k on dummy that doesn't move and no mechanics to deal with then in actual dungeon t6he will be doing 10k lmao. Sounds about right.

I know for a fact that the really frustrating pug groups aren't hitting those numbers (except the 10k one). I have helped a ton of newbies that are hitting like 10-12k. The ones that take a bit longer but get the runs done reasonably smooth ( assuming mechanics known) are hitting these numbers and we really shouldn't be expecting more than that from a pug. You want a fast run then make your own group.

Luke_Flamesword

Even very low dps check can at least remove some "very special players" - last time I was in dungeon with PUG, it was normal dungeon luckily, but one of dps, guy with almost 500 cp was not only standing far from group (so he die from time to time), but also the only thing that he was doing was spaming snipe Maybe he thought that he is still in Cyrodiil or something, I don't know Generally when I going PUG I accept that there can be weaker players but everything have some limits. Some people are so uncoperative or stubborn to not learn, that they are only burden in PUG so I don't mind any verification, even very forgiving one.

Also some healing verification to avoid fake healers should be useful :P

Prof_Bawbag

"I'm happy to teach people mechanics"

There's a sentence that makes me shudder. A huge number of people who spout this lack the social ability to pull it off. I've heard a lot during my nigh on 6 years in this game. The folk handing out that advice wondering why the person they were trying to "teach" told them to go shove their head up a dead bear's ass or completely ignored them. Always themselves blowing their own trumpet when it comes to how good they are when dealing with others because others won't.

The advice isn't even aimed at me, yet it gets my back up too most of the time. There's a fine line between being a patronizing gobshite and being good at communicating with folk. Half the people who claim to be happy to explain things to others only spout that when outside of dungeons. They're usually the first ones to bail or lose their rag. Not saying all, because there are some damn decent folk in this game, but the majority who take to forums or in game chat and claim to be a shining beacon of reason are anything but. Quite frankly, I'd rather be stuck in vet content with someone struggling to hit the dizzy heights than some of the folk that participate in these sort of conversations. Suck any iota of enjoyment out of the game for most folk. Folk who do the most complaining should use pre mades exclusively and leave the rest of us be.

SilverBride

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

I voted no because I had flashbacks of WoW, and having to complete solo simulated dungeon fights before you could queue for random higher level dungeons. It was stressful and I think they finally did away with the requirement.

BUT... I would love to see something similar here. Not as a requirement, but as a way for players to guage what level dungeon they are ready for. It could also help players to train for boss mechanics similar to what they will encounter.

Gilvoth

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

this is horrible that anyone would even suggest an idea like this.

YandereGirlfriend

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

I definitely vote 'yes' or, to be less cutthroat, simply increase the level-gating on all dungeons.

I think that this should be done on a per-dungeon basis because something like vBC2 is infinitely more punishing for lowbee players than vFungalGrotto. And, of course, between an easy vDLC dungeon like White Gold compared to something like vMHK or Frostvault.

CP obviously isn't a 1:1 proxy for your skill at your role but setting the truly difficult vDLC dungeons at like CP600 and above would save a lot of unwitting players from themselves.

LordSarevok

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

"I'm happy to teach people mechanics"

There's a sentence that makes me shudder. A huge number of people who spout this lack the social ability to pull it off. I've heard a lot during my nigh on 6 years in this game. The folk handing out that advice wondering why the person they were trying to "teach" told them to go shove their head up a dead bear's ass or completely ignored them. Always themselves blowing their own trumpet when it comes to how good they are when dealing with others because others won't.

The advice isn't even aimed at me, yet it gets my back up too most of the time. There's a fine line between being a patronizing gobshite and being good at communicating with folk. Half the people who claim to be happy to explain things to others only spout that when outside of dungeons. They're usually the first ones to bail or lose their rag. Not saying all, because there are some damn decent folk in this game, but the majority who take to forums or in game chat and claim to be a shining beacon of reason are anything but. Quite frankly, I'd rather be stuck in vet content with someone struggling to hit the dizzy heights than some of the folk that participate in these sort of conversations. Suck any iota of enjoyment out of the game for most folk. Folk who do the most complaining should use pre mades exclusively and leave the rest of us be.

Just happily and easily explained it to players in vet Moongrave Fane. They listened yet lacked the dps to destroy Dro'Zakars shield before he punished them to death. Even explaining that they maybe should keep ultis saved to burst the shield down. We just died over and over again for about 45 minutes. They literally couldn't do it. That is an invisible wall that gates players non the less. They were absolutely shocked that their dps was actually low, both 810's. That is a failure on ZoS.

LordSarevok

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

I've just been queuing up for random pug vet dlc dungeons. I have completed them all on HM. I like to help competent players achieve harder content. I also recruit for my guild this way. It's an absolute failure on ZoS to put actual dps check mechanics in this game yet set no expectations on what they might need to achieve. Therefore wasting other people's most valuable resource. Time.

LordSarevok

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

That's like getting hired at a new company and put in a role guaranteeing failure. Then this new employee who has had zero expectations set for them is getting harassment from the existing employees, and getting demoralized. Some may even quit totally. It's as I say again, a complete failure on ZoS.

TineaCruris

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

Not even half the dlc dungeons even need designated tank to get through. Everything else one decent player should be able to carry the rest of the group in a worst case scenario.

TineaCruris

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

SilverBride wrote: »

I voted no because I had flashbacks of WoW, and having to complete solo simulated dungeon fights before you could queue for random higher level dungeons. It was stressful and I think they finally did away with the requirement.

BUT... I would love to see something similar here. Not as a requirement, but as a way for players to guage what level dungeon they are ready for. It could also help players to train for boss mechanics similar to what they will encounter.

This is a version of a dps check that makes sense. Making it a value number doesn't make much sense for a number of reasons, not the least of which a dummy is not a real time situation, and most people min/max while doing their dps check, so they don't actually hit the numbers they post in a real situation anyway.

kargen27

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

LordSarevok wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

A nanny state is not needed. Players need to have a decent estimate of their own capabilities, and/or communicate with the group they are stuck with. If it's your first time in a dungeon admit you don't know the mechanics - if you do not want to teach a noob, don't kick them - YOU leave. If you only want to run with certain level/skill of players - don't queue.

People being decent humans would go a long way.

You cannot teach a player to be a good dps in a dungeon run. It's literally impossible. It takes gear, skill, and a practiced rotation to be good.

You can teach a player to be a better DPS/tank/healer in a dungeon run. Maybe even teach them to be good if you have enough patience. All it takes it a person willing to learn and a person willing to teach. You can't teach them to be great but you can help them on their way to getting good. If a player is simply spamming heavy attack you can ask what skills they have on their bar and suggest they hit a few in between each heavy and that will help get things going the right direction. You need to find out where they are at and help them to the next step instead of overwhelming them with a bunch of stuff they are not ready for.
We have a player in our guild that likes to help new players but he panics them because he starts talking about keeping procs up and what gear works best with what skills before they even know to bar swap.
With a random in a dungeon if you see they are struggling ask a question or two and then give some simple advice if they seem open to it. When you get through the run (or when you decide it isn't going to happen) spend a bit of time with them explaining what comes next compared to where they are at. Don't go straight to end game hard mode speed no death set-ups. Keep it closer to where they are. It doesn't take long at all with someone who wants to learn to get a noticeable improvement in a really short time.
When you get those players that refuse to learn that is when you leave the group.

So in the dungeon run, I'm to help farm actual dps gear, help level the good dps abilities up, and help them practice the rotation till they become semi proficient? Sounds reasonable... Should only take 2 to 3 weeks.

Yeah that is what I said.

Actually I said almost the exact opposite of that. You are talking about making them great, not good. I said look at where they are at and help them go to the next step. If they are in mismatched gear suggest easily obtainable gear so they will be better on their next run. Maybe explain the benefits of equipping a full set. You don't have to go help them farm it but put the idea in their head. If you are in a guild that helps new or inexperienced players invite them to join. Ask them where they put their attribute points. A simple adjustment there can make a big difference. Of course it will not help the current run but it will help for future runs. That is the goal of helping inexperienced players. Making them better for next time.

A big problem is in normal dungeons when a player says this is my first time we might wait for them to do the quest but rarely do we take the time to explain mechanics because we can burn right through them. I don't see that changing though.

Basically I am saying point them in the right direction.

thegreat_one

SMH. if yer looking for good dps using the Group finder yer in for a bad time.
Any group who wants 45k DPS min need a to join a guild lol.

Taleof2Cities

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

The dungeon finder only finds you a group.

It’s not designed to do job interviews.

LordSarevok

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

kargen27 wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

A nanny state is not needed. Players need to have a decent estimate of their own capabilities, and/or communicate with the group they are stuck with. If it's your first time in a dungeon admit you don't know the mechanics - if you do not want to teach a noob, don't kick them - YOU leave. If you only want to run with certain level/skill of players - don't queue.

People being decent humans would go a long way.

You cannot teach a player to be a good dps in a dungeon run. It's literally impossible. It takes gear, skill, and a practiced rotation to be good.

You can teach a player to be a better DPS/tank/healer in a dungeon run. Maybe even teach them to be good if you have enough patience. All it takes it a person willing to learn and a person willing to teach. You can't teach them to be great but you can help them on their way to getting good. If a player is simply spamming heavy attack you can ask what skills they have on their bar and suggest they hit a few in between each heavy and that will help get things going the right direction. You need to find out where they are at and help them to the next step instead of overwhelming them with a bunch of stuff they are not ready for.
We have a player in our guild that likes to help new players but he panics them because he starts talking about keeping procs up and what gear works best with what skills before they even know to bar swap.
With a random in a dungeon if you see they are struggling ask a question or two and then give some simple advice if they seem open to it. When you get through the run (or when you decide it isn't going to happen) spend a bit of time with them explaining what comes next compared to where they are at. Don't go straight to end game hard mode speed no death set-ups. Keep it closer to where they are. It doesn't take long at all with someone who wants to learn to get a noticeable improvement in a really short time.
When you get those players that refuse to learn that is when you leave the group.

So in the dungeon run, I'm to help farm actual dps gear, help level the good dps abilities up, and help them practice the rotation till they become semi proficient? Sounds reasonable... Should only take 2 to 3 weeks.

Yeah that is what I said.

Actually I said almost the exact opposite of that. You are talking about making them great, not good. I said look at where they are at and help them go to the next step. If they are in mismatched gear suggest easily obtainable gear so they will be better on their next run. Maybe explain the benefits of equipping a full set. You don't have to go help them farm it but put the idea in their head. If you are in a guild that helps new or inexperienced players invite them to join. Ask them where they put their attribute points. A simple adjustment there can make a big difference. Of course it will not help the current run but it will help for future runs. That is the goal of helping inexperienced players. Making them better for next time.

A big problem is in normal dungeons when a player says this is my first time we might wait for them to do the quest but rarely do we take the time to explain mechanics because we can burn right through them. I don't see that changing though.

Basically I am saying point them in the right direction.

And how exactly does that help the group today? 3 people have now wasted their time, because someone couldn't be bothered to do even a modicum of research.

Castian

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

A 20k minimum dps would be a nice starting point. Nothing says enjoyable like vet City of Ash 2 and you are being force to tank in the lava because the dps is so low you ran out of platforms.

Separately this is only part of the issue, as it was stated ad nauseam understanding mechanics and how to survive are elements a licensing test mostlikely can't sort out. As is the choice to create a pre-made party instead of rolling the dice.

The dungeon finder is like roulette. Yes it puts a group together, no it doesn't guarantee you'll actually clear. Just as the game imposes level requirements on access to a dungeon, increasing the requirements to increase the possibility of the clear shouldn't be considered egregious.

Vet is there for those that like a challenge, Normal for everyone else. Dungeon Finder is a good way to meet new people and expand the playerbase you play with, but it would be nice to avoid being introduced to a dumpster fire.

idk

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

This is not needed because Zos already gives us the ability to set requirements for those we group with if we so choose.

Not getting into the statement in the OP that blatantly biases the poll. BTW, I have something else in mind but this thread was only designed to speak to one specific topic.

Sephyr

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

idk wrote: »

This is not needed because Zos already gives us the ability to set requirements for those we group with if we so choose.

Not getting into the statement in the OP blatantly biases the poll. BTW, I have something else in mind but this thread was only designed to speak to one specific topic.

Pretty much what I was going to say.

kargen27

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

LordSarevok wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

A nanny state is not needed. Players need to have a decent estimate of their own capabilities, and/or communicate with the group they are stuck with. If it's your first time in a dungeon admit you don't know the mechanics - if you do not want to teach a noob, don't kick them - YOU leave. If you only want to run with certain level/skill of players - don't queue.

People being decent humans would go a long way.

You cannot teach a player to be a good dps in a dungeon run. It's literally impossible. It takes gear, skill, and a practiced rotation to be good.

You can teach a player to be a better DPS/tank/healer in a dungeon run. Maybe even teach them to be good if you have enough patience. All it takes it a person willing to learn and a person willing to teach. You can't teach them to be great but you can help them on their way to getting good. If a player is simply spamming heavy attack you can ask what skills they have on their bar and suggest they hit a few in between each heavy and that will help get things going the right direction. You need to find out where they are at and help them to the next step instead of overwhelming them with a bunch of stuff they are not ready for.
We have a player in our guild that likes to help new players but he panics them because he starts talking about keeping procs up and what gear works best with what skills before they even know to bar swap.
With a random in a dungeon if you see they are struggling ask a question or two and then give some simple advice if they seem open to it. When you get through the run (or when you decide it isn't going to happen) spend a bit of time with them explaining what comes next compared to where they are at. Don't go straight to end game hard mode speed no death set-ups. Keep it closer to where they are. It doesn't take long at all with someone who wants to learn to get a noticeable improvement in a really short time.
When you get those players that refuse to learn that is when you leave the group.

So in the dungeon run, I'm to help farm actual dps gear, help level the good dps abilities up, and help them practice the rotation till they become semi proficient? Sounds reasonable... Should only take 2 to 3 weeks.

Yeah that is what I said.

Actually I said almost the exact opposite of that. You are talking about making them great, not good. I said look at where they are at and help them go to the next step. If they are in mismatched gear suggest easily obtainable gear so they will be better on their next run. Maybe explain the benefits of equipping a full set. You don't have to go help them farm it but put the idea in their head. If you are in a guild that helps new or inexperienced players invite them to join. Ask them where they put their attribute points. A simple adjustment there can make a big difference. Of course it will not help the current run but it will help for future runs. That is the goal of helping inexperienced players. Making them better for next time.

A big problem is in normal dungeons when a player says this is my first time we might wait for them to do the quest but rarely do we take the time to explain mechanics because we can burn right through them. I don't see that changing though.

Basically I am saying point them in the right direction.

And how exactly does that help the group today? 3 people have now wasted their time, because someone couldn't be bothered to do even a modicum of research.

I didn't say it would help the current group. The post I responded to said it was impossible to teach a player in a dungeon. It is not and that is what I was responding to. Take a little time and if you happen to group with that player in the future maybe it will go smoother.

GrimTheReaper45

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

Vet dungeons need to be more pug friendly.

zvavi

GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »

Vet dungeons need to be more pug friendly.

Pugs need to be more vet dungeon friendly.

PizzaCat82

Maybe ZOS should put in something to teach people the concept of a rotation.

Just having target dummies aint cutting it. Put something in the tutorials or main quest or something.

Don't blame the players for not knowing something the game doesn't teach them.

oddbasket

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

If the dps check involves maintaining it under mechanics then it makes sense.

It is time other roles step up to the standard required or expected by them of tanks in vet and especially vet dlc.

Nomadic_Atmoran

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

If you want that kind of toxic in your gameplay there are other MMOs that will gladly accommodate you.

Casul

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

If you want that kind of toxic in your gameplay there are other MMOs that will gladly accommodate you.

What's more toxic. Implementing a system that makes sure you can successfully complete the content you are queueing for at the cost of lowering accessibility? Or allowing people to join content they are not ready for which will result in them getting kicked (while likely receiving no information as to why)

Setting boundaries fixed the issue above.

JB_den

No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check

OP, you could get a mod that shows group DPS and if they don't meet your personal threshold you could drop group. Problem solved.

YandereGirlfriend

Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.

People taking the "Group Finder only guarantees you a group" attitude seem to be taking a particularly obtuse stance on this matter.

Indeed, in ancient times all you could do was walk to move yourself around and that crowd would, apparently, have been content to leave us there with no improvements or optimizations necessary. With that type of thinking, say goodbye to the advent of the wheel!

So instead of using our metaphorical feet why not use a metaphorical wheel? Why not improve the Group Finder to create more efficient groups and make larger numbers of people happy?

It is not astrophysics, people. Things can always be improved, why aim low and settle?