MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Recapitated wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

The majority of the pvp playerbase spoke up last time there was a proccmeta, zos listened then, so I dont for the life of me understand how they could circle right back to square one again..only worse then last time. The proccmeta is boring, toxic and devoid of any feeling of accomplishment.

to me, this proves that they just do it on random. i cant really say they listen to cries for nerfing or buffing stuff. like there is a dart in the office and do whatever it lands on it.

i would be okay with these sets, they could be fun if they didnt nerf all the stuff back then for balance and whatnot.

I'm pretty sure they do it so you have to buy the new chapter. Most people right now are running greymoor sets, which means they have to either buy the BoE sets or buy the dlc for the BoP sets. Summerset had sload's, Elsweyr had NMA and now we have all these proc sets. The question is whether at this point they think they got enough people to buy the new content and can nerf the new sets. The markarth sets probably won't be nerfed until enough people buy it via crown store (those without eso+).

This is often said about ESO and its expansions, that the reason things are so poorly tuned and overpowered at release and nerfed shortly thereafter is specifically to sell expansions. While it may look like that, I question if any player legitimately does that. And would said player be stupid enough to fall for the same buff/nerf from one expansion to the next?

And if so, why is it always the stamina sets and never a worthwhile mag set in these releases?

Elsweyr didn't have a p2w set that I can think (everyone had access to NMA) but it did have a deliberately overtuned class.

I don't agree, NMA was the most obvious scenario ever, literally hundreds of builds were changed to use NMA, you could only get it by buying expansion, then they nerf a year later, for new expansion. I actually like the changes to many of the sets that they made and love the diversity even of proc sets. Even don't care about nerf to NMA. But come on, the only other set that is this obviously p2w is Thrassian. BTW overall these p2w scenarios are NOT that bad, not game breaking, and if it keeps them funded it is smart.

NMA was easily accessible without buying Elsweyr.

I didn't say anything about buying Elsweyr? I believe you have to buy Dragonhold DLC to get Southern Elsweyr, to get the NMA crafting station. Obviously you can buy from guild trader or have someone craft a set for you. But I think most people who buy the DLC are when it first comes out before guild traders have lots of pieces available. I did exactly that.

Well they had to add more overpowered burst dmg proc sets so current overpowered DoT dmg proc sets won't feel alone.

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Recapitated wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

The majority of the pvp playerbase spoke up last time there was a proccmeta, zos listened then, so I dont for the life of me understand how they could circle right back to square one again..only worse then last time. The proccmeta is boring, toxic and devoid of any feeling of accomplishment.

to me, this proves that they just do it on random. i cant really say they listen to cries for nerfing or buffing stuff. like there is a dart in the office and do whatever it lands on it.

i would be okay with these sets, they could be fun if they didnt nerf all the stuff back then for balance and whatnot.

I'm pretty sure they do it so you have to buy the new chapter. Most people right now are running greymoor sets, which means they have to either buy the BoE sets or buy the dlc for the BoP sets. Summerset had sload's, Elsweyr had NMA and now we have all these proc sets. The question is whether at this point they think they got enough people to buy the new content and can nerf the new sets. The markarth sets probably won't be nerfed until enough people buy it via crown store (those without eso+).

This is often said about ESO and its expansions, that the reason things are so poorly tuned and overpowered at release and nerfed shortly thereafter is specifically to sell expansions. While it may look like that, I question if any player legitimately does that. And would said player be stupid enough to fall for the same buff/nerf from one expansion to the next?

And if so, why is it always the stamina sets and never a worthwhile mag set in these releases?

Elsweyr didn't have a p2w set that I can think (everyone had access to NMA) but it did have a deliberately overtuned class.

I don't agree, NMA was the most obvious scenario ever, literally hundreds of builds were changed to use NMA, you could only get it by buying expansion, then they nerf a year later, for new expansion. I actually like the changes to many of the sets that they made and love the diversity even of proc sets. Even don't care about nerf to NMA. But come on, the only other set that is this obviously p2w is Thrassian. BTW overall these p2w scenarios are NOT that bad, not game breaking, and if it keeps them funded it is smart.

NMA was easily accessible without buying Elsweyr.

I didn't say anything about buying Elsweyr? I believe you have to buy Dragonhold DLC to get Southern Elsweyr, to get the NMA crafting station. Obviously you can buy from guild trader or have someone craft a set for you. But I think most people who buy the DLC are when it first comes out before guild traders have lots of pieces available. I did exactly that.

My bad, it was dragonhold. But again,

Merforum wrote: »

NMA was the most obvious scenario ever, literally hundreds of builds were changed to use NMA, you could only get it by buying expansion

NMA was easily accessible without purchasing anything.

Yeah, my main point is that I don't think there is a big problem with p2w in ESO but NMA and Thrassian are the closest to fit that scenario.

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

like all problems in this game it just comes down to lack of cost/ free damage.

slap an ultimate cost on each proc and it will balance itself since three proc sets will be very expensive to maintain and cost you many ultimates.

Yep, procs offer damage without resource cost, or global cooldown cost. The only cost involved is the weapon set bonus opportunity cost. But when you compare proc set damage to added damage from stat sets, the opportunity cost there is comparatively negligible.

Interesting idea about procs costing ultimate though. Too bad it will never happen.

Hang on, many 'PROC' sets have several drawbacks
1. as you say you are sacrificing other 5 piece bonuses
2. some have percent chance to trigger, which makes them very unpredictable (some sets had this removed which may be a mistake)
3. all of them have a cool down
4. most sets been changed from big proc damage to DOT which can be purged (this is ONLY to appease PVPers)

Instead of continuing to NERF everything to appease PVPer who don't want to change their play style of 'whoever smashes buttons the fastest wins', they should just add minor slayer to 3rd piece bonus on 'worst' PROC sets, that way these sets will be better for PVE but will be less attractive for PVP. Everyone Happy. BTW I've been doing lots of BG last few weeks and the most annoying thing is 3-4-4 and people not know how to do the objectives, way more than proc sets.

Vizirith wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

like all problems in this game it just comes down to lack of cost/ free damage.

slap an ultimate cost on each proc and it will balance itself since three proc sets will be very expensive to maintain and cost you many ultimates.

Yep, procs offer damage without resource cost, or global cooldown cost. The only cost involved is the weapon set bonus opportunity cost. But when you compare proc set damage to added damage from stat sets, the opportunity cost there is comparatively negligible.

Interesting idea about procs costing ultimate though. Too bad it will never happen.

Hang on, many 'PROC' sets have several drawbacks
1. as you say you are sacrificing other 5 piece bonuses
2. some have percent chance to trigger, which makes them very unpredictable (some sets had this removed which may be a mistake)
3. all of them have a cool down
4. most sets been changed from big proc damage to DOT which can be purged (this is ONLY to appease PVPers)

Instead of continuing to NERF everything to appease PVPer who don't want to change their play style of 'whoever smashes buttons the fastest wins', they should just add minor slayer to 3rd piece bonus on 'worst' PROC sets, that way these sets will be better for PVE but will be less attractive for PVP. Everyone Happy. BTW I've been doing lots of BG last few weeks and the most annoying thing is 3-4-4 and people not know how to do the objectives, way more than proc sets.

PVE and PVP are completely different animals. Caltrops, warhorn, endless hail and wall of elements are staples of pve and are rarely seen in pvp. PVP is burst and pve is sustained. PVE incoming damage is easily predicted, pvp it's not. PVE the specefic enemies do the same thing every time, pvp they don't. Pvp enemies move erractically, pve they are easy to predict. Balancing both is very difficult. Most mmo's have a little better with increasing lvl and gear rating every expansion, most don't use proc sets and if they do it is significantly less impactful on overall gameplay. To counter your points:

1. They are often far superior to normal 5 piece set bonuses in pvp.
2. Those are less of the issue, most of the ones people run today don't
3. Most do indeed and have high damage to make up for it or are a dot that you can have 100% up time on.
4. If they weren't dots it would be ridiculous. Of course only 3/6 classes have a purge, and nb has cloak dot suppression. Warden's purge is 1 at a time which in pvp about half the time you have a good 3 debuffs minimum.

Sure pvp is more about speed while pve is keeping up with mechanics and rotation. PVE is far less sensitive to fluctuations in set damage balance than pvp. What does a set being nerfed in pve mean? Depending on the level of pve, it varies from nothing to lowering your dps output but doesn't affect incoming damage at all, that boss' damage is definitive. PVP it affects your incoming damage. A set being OP in pve simply means everybody will run it... and that's it.

I'll assume you are explaining the super basic info about difference between PVP/PVE to noobs who might read this. There is an overarching problem that is completely unfixable. PVPers are constantly complaining about 'Balance' but the more classes/races/sets/skills are 'balanced' for PVP the more all that stuff makes PVE (and PVP actually) BORING. Part of the fun of PVE (and should be the same for PVP) is having different class/race/gear/etc. which let's you SPECIALIZE in different stuff and try different ways of playing.

And I notice all the complaints have the same root cause, PVPer who got used to killing 1vX with cheesy combos and stat/dmg stacking. But every time their innocent victims begin to get smart and use shielding, healing, tankiness, proc sets, coordinated groups, you get the same people complaining profusely "NERF EVERYTHING, I want to be able to kill 10 people without thinking so I can tell everyone how SKILLED I am."

I just hope that before they make every class/race/skill IDENTICAL to achieve 'Balance' for PVP, instead they decide to allow only limited race/class/certain sets in PVP. Like going into PVP you had 2 choices Mag/breton/templar/NMA lt/Crfty/fire/rest staff OR Stam/rdgrd/DK/NMA med/draug/2hnd/bow. But somehow even with that I think people would still whine that Mag or Stam was OP. Then they can focus on making PVE stuff cool and different.

Nerhesi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

I'll assume you are explaining the super basic info about difference between PVP/PVE to noobs who might read this. There is an overarching problem that is completely unfixable. PVPers are constantly complaining about 'Balance' but the more classes/races/sets/skills are 'balanced' for PVP the more all that stuff makes PVE (and PVP actually) BORING. Part of the fun of PVE (and should be the same for PVP) is having different class/race/gear/etc. which let's you SPECIALIZE in different stuff and try different ways of playing.

And I notice all the complaints have the same root cause, PVPer who got used to killing 1vX with cheesy combos and stat/dmg stacking. But every time their innocent victims begin to get smart and use shielding, healing, tankiness, proc sets, coordinated groups, you get the same people complaining profusely "NERF EVERYTHING, I want to be able to kill 10 people without thinking so I can tell everyone how SKILLED I am."

I just hope that before they make every class/race/skill IDENTICAL to achieve 'Balance' for PVP, instead they decide to allow only limited race/class/certain sets in PVP. Like going into PVP you had 2 choices Mag/breton/templar/NMA lt/Crfty/fire/rest staff OR Stam/rdgrd/DK/NMA med/draug/2hnd/bow. But somehow even with that I think people would still whine that Mag or Stam was OP. Then they can focus on making PVE stuff cool and different.

This guy is dead on. 1vX is indicative of a systemic issue. I enjoy the skill ceiling - but the game shouldn't allow the super narrow meta (combined with high skill) to decimate 5-10 people over a period of time because the one (1) person is running max stats and CP is compounding the issue (free tankiness, sustain, etc). Sure skill should let you kill 1, 2 or maybe even 3 people. - but those people who are not as sweaty as us shouldn't just be food. If we get caught by a group of 4+ - then we should die, period. Not just infinitely tank around while comboing single targets.

We need more things to be viable and good than just stat stacking NMA/Alfiq/Necro/Brighthroat/etc... One of the biggest weaknesses of this game is how it advertises itself as an endlessly rich customization end-game but it is actually a super narrow meta. You have have to have different ways to play, and they have to viable and competitive. You have to have real choices in gear, where you can say, for example: "I'm gonnna equip this proc set(s) and malacath so now I can totally blow someone up" but if I lose the initiative, my heals/mitigation/max pool is so crap that I'm screwed.

On a side note, do you know that a mag or stadk will parse higher (in pvp) with pure stats than a necro running 2 (or even 3) proc sets and malacath even with their rapid rot passive? I'm talking super short 15-30 second parse too. Proc sets for the most part have more counterplay options than just eating that Fossilize and undodgeable/unblockable dots that are also applying DD pressure.

This game is a long way from having a truly competitive meta. Anything that expands it, and reduces the length of end-game pvp fights is welcome. CP rework needs to be really pushed up and support truly meaningful choices (e.g. You dont get to be tanky if you specc for damage. You dont get to do good DoT dmg and good DD dmg.)

Getting 1vx'd is usually an indicative of skill levels. Pretty good players are unlikely to be 1vx'd unless it's a major class/build counter. I consider myself just an above average player and I don't know the last time I've gotten really 1vx'd outside of a bomb/ magcro graveyard/smash combo. I have no shame in saying I've lost a 2v1 or even a 3v1 if the other player is very skilled and the other players with me are below average. Larger 1vx's come down heavily to skill and build. Heck I did a 1v 10ish during midyear mayhem because 5 of them died to my dawnbreaker, they were terrible. In cp how much cp matters of course having none and going up against a max cp player will hurt badly.

EDIT:Spelling/Grammer

Nerhesi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

I'll assume you are explaining the super basic info about difference between PVP/PVE to noobs who might read this. There is an overarching problem that is completely unfixable. PVPers are constantly complaining about 'Balance' but the more classes/races/sets/skills are 'balanced' for PVP the more all that stuff makes PVE (and PVP actually) BORING. Part of the fun of PVE (and should be the same for PVP) is having different class/race/gear/etc. which let's you SPECIALIZE in different stuff and try different ways of playing.

And I notice all the complaints have the same root cause, PVPer who got used to killing 1vX with cheesy combos and stat/dmg stacking. But every time their innocent victims begin to get smart and use shielding, healing, tankiness, proc sets, coordinated groups, you get the same people complaining profusely "NERF EVERYTHING, I want to be able to kill 10 people without thinking so I can tell everyone how SKILLED I am."

I just hope that before they make every class/race/skill IDENTICAL to achieve 'Balance' for PVP, instead they decide to allow only limited race/class/certain sets in PVP. Like going into PVP you had 2 choices Mag/breton/templar/NMA lt/Crfty/fire/rest staff OR Stam/rdgrd/DK/NMA med/draug/2hnd/bow. But somehow even with that I think people would still whine that Mag or Stam was OP. Then they can focus on making PVE stuff cool and different.

This guy is dead on. 1vX is indicative of a systemic issue. I enjoy the skill ceiling - but the game shouldn't allow the super narrow meta (combined with high skill) to decimate 5-10 people over a period of time because the one (1) person is running max stats and CP is compounding the issue (free tankiness, sustain, etc). Sure skill should let you kill 1, 2 or maybe even 3 people. - but those people who are not as sweaty as us shouldn't just be food. If we get caught by a group of 4+ - then we should die, period. Not just infinitely tank around while comboing single targets.

We need more things to be viable and good than just stat stacking NMA/Alfiq/Necro/Brighthroat/etc... One of the biggest weaknesses of this game is how it advertises itself as an endlessly rich customization end-game but it is actually a super narrow meta. You have have to have different ways to play, and they have to viable and competitive. You have to have real choices in gear, where you can say, for example: "I'm gonnna equip this proc set(s) and malacath so now I can totally blow someone up" but if I lose the initiative, my heals/mitigation/max pool is so crap that I'm screwed.

On a side note, do you know that a mag or stadk will parse higher (in pvp) with pure stats than a necro running 2 (or even 3) proc sets and malacath even with their rapid rot passive? I'm talking super short 15-30 second parse too. Proc sets for the most part have more counterplay options than just eating that Fossilize and undodgeable/unblockable dots that are also applying DD pressure.

This game is a long way from having a truly competitive meta. Anything that expands it, and reduces the length of end-game pvp fights is welcome. CP rework needs to be really pushed up and support truly meaningful choices (e.g. You dont get to be tanky if you specc for damage. You dont get to do good DoT dmg and good DD dmg.)

Yeah, I remember when I first tried IC it was after I had been tanking for quite a while and could tank just about all Vet dungeons with ease. Then I come in IC and get killed in like 3 seconds. And in Cyrodiil me and several people would get killed very fast by 1 or 2 gankers a lot. There is a difference between PVE and PVP but this is too dramatically upsetting for newbies and made it so I only did PVP during events for a long time. Now I do BG and really like it, the toxic nature of PVP in the beginning probably stops many people from doing it long enough to 'git gud' or git ok.

The gear and skills are very important to be able to do PVP, but I think the most important step is when you learn not to freak out. LIterally the instant I stopped freaking out when I get attacked, I was able to counter and start to kill players 1 on 1. Now in BG I can hold my own 1 on 1 and usually only die when 2-4 gang up on me. If my group stays together we can mow everyone down. My Stam toons kill faster than Mag toons currently but neither has the issues most people are complaining about on the forum. BTW I like all the variety and think there should be some builds/play styles that you have to learn how to counter instead of making everything the same, boring setup AKA balanced, especially nerfing PVE.

The funny thing is I can see those cheesy combos from a mile away now and they hardly phase me. And when I don't instantly die, the gankers are out of resources no ULT and I counter attack and can usually kill them. Or just leave them and go back to the objectives, if it is death match then they must die though. It is amazing how stupid some of these players are to be honest, after I kill them they chase me around the map, while my team and I are capturing flags, taking the ball or whatever.

Here's something else that is funny, on my sorcs I slot Matriarch which take up 2 slots but gives good heals to me and my team mates. And just by healing my team mates at the proper time throughout some fights is the difference between us killing the other group or them killing us. This is obvioiusly why they removed group queue from BG originally I think, because PVP, DPS, 1vXers are mostly selfish and arrogant and with any coordination at all they are easy to kill.

Anyway thanks, glad to see some different points of view in the comments.