Proc burst damage is out of control
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Sevn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Atherakhia wrote: »The majority of the pvp playerbase spoke up last time there was a proccmeta, zos listened then, so I dont for the life of me understand how they could circle right back to square one again..only worse then last time. The proccmeta is boring, toxic and devoid of any feeling of accomplishment.
to me, this proves that they just do it on random. i cant really say they listen to cries for nerfing or buffing stuff. like there is a dart in the office and do whatever it lands on it.
i would be okay with these sets, they could be fun if they didnt nerf all the stuff back then for balance and whatnot.
I'm pretty sure they do it so you have to buy the new chapter. Most people right now are running greymoor sets, which means they have to either buy the BoE sets or buy the dlc for the BoP sets. Summerset had sload's, Elsweyr had NMA and now we have all these proc sets. The question is whether at this point they think they got enough people to buy the new content and can nerf the new sets. The markarth sets probably won't be nerfed until enough people buy it via crown store (those without eso+).
This is often said about ESO and its expansions, that the reason things are so poorly tuned and overpowered at release and nerfed shortly thereafter is specifically to sell expansions. While it may look like that, I question if any player legitimately does that. And would said player be stupid enough to fall for the same buff/nerf from one expansion to the next?
And if so, why is it always the stamina sets and never a worthwhile mag set in these releases?
Would a player use the best sets for at least 6 months before it's nerfed and something else becomes BiS? Yes they would.
Agreed. For 3/4 months they will enjoy themselves ingame while others will spend that time complaining in the forums until the next set of nerfs/buffs.
It's a cycle that has repeatedly played out in ESO as already pointed out. Wouldn't necessarily classify them as stupid for time/money spent enjoyed.
Joy Division is right, there's not caring and not bothering to bang your head against the wall hoping for a new result. Been there done that. Procs aren't going anywhere until time to sell a new piece of DLC.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
-Hemingway3 -
Recapitated✭✭✭✭Atherakhia wrote: »The majority of the pvp playerbase spoke up last time there was a proccmeta, zos listened then, so I dont for the life of me understand how they could circle right back to square one again..only worse then last time. The proccmeta is boring, toxic and devoid of any feeling of accomplishment.
to me, this proves that they just do it on random. i cant really say they listen to cries for nerfing or buffing stuff. like there is a dart in the office and do whatever it lands on it.
i would be okay with these sets, they could be fun if they didnt nerf all the stuff back then for balance and whatnot.
I'm pretty sure they do it so you have to buy the new chapter. Most people right now are running greymoor sets, which means they have to either buy the BoE sets or buy the dlc for the BoP sets. Summerset had sload's, Elsweyr had NMA and now we have all these proc sets. The question is whether at this point they think they got enough people to buy the new content and can nerf the new sets. The markarth sets probably won't be nerfed until enough people buy it via crown store (those without eso+).
This is often said about ESO and its expansions, that the reason things are so poorly tuned and overpowered at release and nerfed shortly thereafter is specifically to sell expansions. While it may look like that, I question if any player legitimately does that. And would said player be stupid enough to fall for the same buff/nerf from one expansion to the next?
And if so, why is it always the stamina sets and never a worthwhile mag set in these releases?
Elsweyr didn't have a p2w set that I can think (everyone had access to NMA) but it did have a deliberately overtuned class.Edited by Recapitated on October 1, 2020 6:53PM1 -
Atherakhia✭✭✭✭Recapitated wrote: »Atherakhia wrote: »The majority of the pvp playerbase spoke up last time there was a proccmeta, zos listened then, so I dont for the life of me understand how they could circle right back to square one again..only worse then last time. The proccmeta is boring, toxic and devoid of any feeling of accomplishment.
to me, this proves that they just do it on random. i cant really say they listen to cries for nerfing or buffing stuff. like there is a dart in the office and do whatever it lands on it.
i would be okay with these sets, they could be fun if they didnt nerf all the stuff back then for balance and whatnot.
I'm pretty sure they do it so you have to buy the new chapter. Most people right now are running greymoor sets, which means they have to either buy the BoE sets or buy the dlc for the BoP sets. Summerset had sload's, Elsweyr had NMA and now we have all these proc sets. The question is whether at this point they think they got enough people to buy the new content and can nerf the new sets. The markarth sets probably won't be nerfed until enough people buy it via crown store (those without eso+).
This is often said about ESO and its expansions, that the reason things are so poorly tuned and overpowered at release and nerfed shortly thereafter is specifically to sell expansions. While it may look like that, I question if any player legitimately does that. And would said player be stupid enough to fall for the same buff/nerf from one expansion to the next?
And if so, why is it always the stamina sets and never a worthwhile mag set in these releases?
Elsweyr didn't have a p2w set that I can think (everyone had access to NMA) but it did have a deliberately overtuned class.
Hanlon's Razor...Edited by Atherakhia on October 1, 2020 7:16PM2 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭Recapitated wrote: »Atherakhia wrote: »The majority of the pvp playerbase spoke up last time there was a proccmeta, zos listened then, so I dont for the life of me understand how they could circle right back to square one again..only worse then last time. The proccmeta is boring, toxic and devoid of any feeling of accomplishment.
to me, this proves that they just do it on random. i cant really say they listen to cries for nerfing or buffing stuff. like there is a dart in the office and do whatever it lands on it.
i would be okay with these sets, they could be fun if they didnt nerf all the stuff back then for balance and whatnot.
I'm pretty sure they do it so you have to buy the new chapter. Most people right now are running greymoor sets, which means they have to either buy the BoE sets or buy the dlc for the BoP sets. Summerset had sload's, Elsweyr had NMA and now we have all these proc sets. The question is whether at this point they think they got enough people to buy the new content and can nerf the new sets. The markarth sets probably won't be nerfed until enough people buy it via crown store (those without eso+).
This is often said about ESO and its expansions, that the reason things are so poorly tuned and overpowered at release and nerfed shortly thereafter is specifically to sell expansions. While it may look like that, I question if any player legitimately does that. And would said player be stupid enough to fall for the same buff/nerf from one expansion to the next?
And if so, why is it always the stamina sets and never a worthwhile mag set in these releases?
Elsweyr didn't have a p2w set that I can think (everyone had access to NMA) but it did have a deliberately overtuned class.
I don't agree, NMA was the most obvious scenario ever, literally hundreds of builds were changed to use NMA, you could only get it by buying expansion, then they nerf a year later, for new expansion. I actually like the changes to many of the sets that they made and love the diversity even of proc sets. Even don't care about nerf to NMA. But come on, the only other set that is this obviously p2w is Thrassian. BTW overall these p2w scenarios are NOT that bad, not game breaking, and if it keeps them funded it is smart.1 -
MurderMostFoul✭✭✭✭✭
✭Recapitated wrote: »Atherakhia wrote: »The majority of the pvp playerbase spoke up last time there was a proccmeta, zos listened then, so I dont for the life of me understand how they could circle right back to square one again..only worse then last time. The proccmeta is boring, toxic and devoid of any feeling of accomplishment.
to me, this proves that they just do it on random. i cant really say they listen to cries for nerfing or buffing stuff. like there is a dart in the office and do whatever it lands on it.
i would be okay with these sets, they could be fun if they didnt nerf all the stuff back then for balance and whatnot.
I'm pretty sure they do it so you have to buy the new chapter. Most people right now are running greymoor sets, which means they have to either buy the BoE sets or buy the dlc for the BoP sets. Summerset had sload's, Elsweyr had NMA and now we have all these proc sets. The question is whether at this point they think they got enough people to buy the new content and can nerf the new sets. The markarth sets probably won't be nerfed until enough people buy it via crown store (those without eso+).
This is often said about ESO and its expansions, that the reason things are so poorly tuned and overpowered at release and nerfed shortly thereafter is specifically to sell expansions. While it may look like that, I question if any player legitimately does that. And would said player be stupid enough to fall for the same buff/nerf from one expansion to the next?
And if so, why is it always the stamina sets and never a worthwhile mag set in these releases?
Elsweyr didn't have a p2w set that I can think (everyone had access to NMA) but it did have a deliberately overtuned class.
I don't agree, NMA was the most obvious scenario ever, literally hundreds of builds were changed to use NMA, you could only get it by buying expansion, then they nerf a year later, for new expansion. I actually like the changes to many of the sets that they made and love the diversity even of proc sets. Even don't care about nerf to NMA. But come on, the only other set that is this obviously p2w is Thrassian. BTW overall these p2w scenarios are NOT that bad, not game breaking, and if it keeps them funded it is smart.
NMA was easily accessible without buying Elsweyr.“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”4 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭These proc sets are somewhat strong but as a vamp stage 4 nb with 17k health, I deal with proc set users just fine, there's way more overpowered sets that no one is mentioning in pvp like thews of the harbinger, eternal vigor and leaching plate.
PvP right now is unbalanced but just like in 2016 when Viper's Sting, WidowMaker and Tremorscale were rampant, good players always adapted.
Leaching plate is good in PvP now?
Because last time I tired it (it was years ago I"ll own) it was god awful. I couldn't even tell it was doing anything.0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »Recapitated wrote: »Atherakhia wrote: »The majority of the pvp playerbase spoke up last time there was a proccmeta, zos listened then, so I dont for the life of me understand how they could circle right back to square one again..only worse then last time. The proccmeta is boring, toxic and devoid of any feeling of accomplishment.
to me, this proves that they just do it on random. i cant really say they listen to cries for nerfing or buffing stuff. like there is a dart in the office and do whatever it lands on it.
i would be okay with these sets, they could be fun if they didnt nerf all the stuff back then for balance and whatnot.
I'm pretty sure they do it so you have to buy the new chapter. Most people right now are running greymoor sets, which means they have to either buy the BoE sets or buy the dlc for the BoP sets. Summerset had sload's, Elsweyr had NMA and now we have all these proc sets. The question is whether at this point they think they got enough people to buy the new content and can nerf the new sets. The markarth sets probably won't be nerfed until enough people buy it via crown store (those without eso+).
This is often said about ESO and its expansions, that the reason things are so poorly tuned and overpowered at release and nerfed shortly thereafter is specifically to sell expansions. While it may look like that, I question if any player legitimately does that. And would said player be stupid enough to fall for the same buff/nerf from one expansion to the next?
And if so, why is it always the stamina sets and never a worthwhile mag set in these releases?
Elsweyr didn't have a p2w set that I can think (everyone had access to NMA) but it did have a deliberately overtuned class.
I don't agree, NMA was the most obvious scenario ever, literally hundreds of builds were changed to use NMA, you could only get it by buying expansion, then they nerf a year later, for new expansion. I actually like the changes to many of the sets that they made and love the diversity even of proc sets. Even don't care about nerf to NMA. But come on, the only other set that is this obviously p2w is Thrassian. BTW overall these p2w scenarios are NOT that bad, not game breaking, and if it keeps them funded it is smart.
NMA was easily accessible without buying Elsweyr.
I didn't say anything about buying Elsweyr? I believe you have to buy Dragonhold DLC to get Southern Elsweyr, to get the NMA crafting station. Obviously you can buy from guild trader or have someone craft a set for you. But I think most people who buy the DLC are when it first comes out before guild traders have lots of pieces available. I did exactly that.0 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »Recapitated wrote: »Atherakhia wrote: »The majority of the pvp playerbase spoke up last time there was a proccmeta, zos listened then, so I dont for the life of me understand how they could circle right back to square one again..only worse then last time. The proccmeta is boring, toxic and devoid of any feeling of accomplishment.
to me, this proves that they just do it on random. i cant really say they listen to cries for nerfing or buffing stuff. like there is a dart in the office and do whatever it lands on it.
i would be okay with these sets, they could be fun if they didnt nerf all the stuff back then for balance and whatnot.
I'm pretty sure they do it so you have to buy the new chapter. Most people right now are running greymoor sets, which means they have to either buy the BoE sets or buy the dlc for the BoP sets. Summerset had sload's, Elsweyr had NMA and now we have all these proc sets. The question is whether at this point they think they got enough people to buy the new content and can nerf the new sets. The markarth sets probably won't be nerfed until enough people buy it via crown store (those without eso+).
This is often said about ESO and its expansions, that the reason things are so poorly tuned and overpowered at release and nerfed shortly thereafter is specifically to sell expansions. While it may look like that, I question if any player legitimately does that. And would said player be stupid enough to fall for the same buff/nerf from one expansion to the next?
And if so, why is it always the stamina sets and never a worthwhile mag set in these releases?
Elsweyr didn't have a p2w set that I can think (everyone had access to NMA) but it did have a deliberately overtuned class.
I don't agree, NMA was the most obvious scenario ever, literally hundreds of builds were changed to use NMA, you could only get it by buying expansion, then they nerf a year later, for new expansion. I actually like the changes to many of the sets that they made and love the diversity even of proc sets. Even don't care about nerf to NMA. But come on, the only other set that is this obviously p2w is Thrassian. BTW overall these p2w scenarios are NOT that bad, not game breaking, and if it keeps them funded it is smart.
NMA was easily accessible without buying Elsweyr.
I didn't say anything about buying Elsweyr? I believe you have to buy Dragonhold DLC to get Southern Elsweyr, to get the NMA crafting station. Obviously you can buy from guild trader or have someone craft a set for you. But I think most people who buy the DLC are when it first comes out before guild traders have lots of pieces available. I did exactly that.
You can just travel to the house of someone who has the crafting station which most people have right on release day.
Also NMA was in no way comparable to the current procs.
I added a mere 480 weapon/spell damage on the 5pc which was good but other sets could offer just as much, additionally it had a distinct drawback with the 5% cost increase.
480 weapon damage doesn't provide anywhere near as much damage as a single proc does especially not in the same gcd.
In order to get 5-7k additional AoE damage you'd had to use an AoE ability which for most people doesn't even hit that hard to begin with.
Even when taking shalks or blastbones as an comparison the amount of damage you would had to stack to gain an additional 5k damage is absurd and can't be achieved by a single 5pc set let alone a 2pc set.
This is where procs enter the equation, first of all getting that extra burst comes at no direct disadvantage, your damage doesn't even decrease significantly and you could also play 2 defensive sets along with it because procs don't scale with stats but only benefit from damage done/taken increase or penetration and especially malacath.
1 year ago every ult that was once instant got hit by the worst change in the entirety of the game, Cast times.
Why?
Because the devs said they provided too much instant damage which is laughable they're ultimates after all and now they're unreliable, clunky to use and quite frankly have nothing "ulitmateish" about them anymore.
But then Zos decides to add Procs that are once again instant and deal comparable damage to some ultimates but have no cost, a much lower downtime and you don't even have to build for stats to deal damage with them.
6 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well they had to add more overpowered burst dmg proc sets so current overpowered DoT dmg proc sets won't feel alone.0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
That trend of ZoS contradicting themselves goes even further. Not that long ago DoT meta dominated the game for both pvE and PvP. People were doing sick dmg just by using 2-3 Dot abilities on others to the point said DoTs were completly deleting enemies defense. ZoS decided to nerf DoTs because they were giving too much power with low imput from the player. Now they've introduced high amount of high DoT dmg proc sets which are basically doing the same thing but require even less input because You can apply 2-3 proc sets with 1-2 clicks. For example poison injection applying sheer venom and hunters venom is basically equivalnt of using 2 strong DoTs in DoT meta. Somehow in ZoS's eyes back then it was bad but now it's ok.1 year ago every ult that was once instant got hit by the worst change in the entirety of the game, Cast times.
Why?
Because the devs said they provided too much instant damage which is laughable they're ultimates after all and now they're unreliable, clunky to use and quite frankly have nothing "ulitmateish" about them anymore.
But then Zos decides to add Procs that are once again instant and deal comparable damage to some ultimates but have no cost, a much lower downtime and you don't even have to build for stats to deal damage with them.
Edited by Juhasow on October 2, 2020 12:39PM2 -
MurderMostFoul✭✭✭✭✭
✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »Recapitated wrote: »Atherakhia wrote: »The majority of the pvp playerbase spoke up last time there was a proccmeta, zos listened then, so I dont for the life of me understand how they could circle right back to square one again..only worse then last time. The proccmeta is boring, toxic and devoid of any feeling of accomplishment.
to me, this proves that they just do it on random. i cant really say they listen to cries for nerfing or buffing stuff. like there is a dart in the office and do whatever it lands on it.
i would be okay with these sets, they could be fun if they didnt nerf all the stuff back then for balance and whatnot.
I'm pretty sure they do it so you have to buy the new chapter. Most people right now are running greymoor sets, which means they have to either buy the BoE sets or buy the dlc for the BoP sets. Summerset had sload's, Elsweyr had NMA and now we have all these proc sets. The question is whether at this point they think they got enough people to buy the new content and can nerf the new sets. The markarth sets probably won't be nerfed until enough people buy it via crown store (those without eso+).
This is often said about ESO and its expansions, that the reason things are so poorly tuned and overpowered at release and nerfed shortly thereafter is specifically to sell expansions. While it may look like that, I question if any player legitimately does that. And would said player be stupid enough to fall for the same buff/nerf from one expansion to the next?
And if so, why is it always the stamina sets and never a worthwhile mag set in these releases?
Elsweyr didn't have a p2w set that I can think (everyone had access to NMA) but it did have a deliberately overtuned class.
I don't agree, NMA was the most obvious scenario ever, literally hundreds of builds were changed to use NMA, you could only get it by buying expansion, then they nerf a year later, for new expansion. I actually like the changes to many of the sets that they made and love the diversity even of proc sets. Even don't care about nerf to NMA. But come on, the only other set that is this obviously p2w is Thrassian. BTW overall these p2w scenarios are NOT that bad, not game breaking, and if it keeps them funded it is smart.
NMA was easily accessible without buying Elsweyr.
I didn't say anything about buying Elsweyr? I believe you have to buy Dragonhold DLC to get Southern Elsweyr, to get the NMA crafting station. Obviously you can buy from guild trader or have someone craft a set for you. But I think most people who buy the DLC are when it first comes out before guild traders have lots of pieces available. I did exactly that.
My bad, it was dragonhold. But again,NMA was the most obvious scenario ever, literally hundreds of builds were changed to use NMA, you could only get it by buying expansion
NMA was easily accessible without purchasing anything.“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”2 -
hakan✭✭✭✭✭The majority of the pvp playerbase spoke up last time there was a proccmeta, zos listened then, so I dont for the life of me understand how they could circle right back to square one again..only worse then last time. The proccmeta is boring, toxic and devoid of any feeling of accomplishment.
to me, this proves that they just do it on random. i cant really say they listen to cries for nerfing or buffing stuff. like there is a dart in the office and do whatever it lands on it.
i would be okay with these sets, they could be fun if they didnt nerf all the stuff back then for balance and whatnot.
I'm pretty sure they do it so you have to buy the new chapter. Most people right now are running greymoor sets, which means they have to either buy the BoE sets or buy the dlc for the BoP sets. Summerset had sload's, Elsweyr had NMA and now we have all these proc sets. The question is whether at this point they think they got enough people to buy the new content and can nerf the new sets. The markarth sets probably won't be nerfed until enough people buy it via crown store (those without eso+).
cant say they do it for sales either. cuz most of the trial sets are used for trials. some dungeon sets were used for pvp but not much. and they had alternatives just like them so it didnt matter, like caluurion.
edit: and most of the sets just sucked and sucks still.
things like NMA is accessible by anyone, you can ask for white NMA gear and some people dont even want money for that though its not expensive. same with eternal hunt, clever alch.
weve just got it this year with myhtics. thats it. and only three of them were being used before one of them got nerfed. heavily.Edited by hakan on October 2, 2020 3:27PM0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »Recapitated wrote: »Atherakhia wrote: »The majority of the pvp playerbase spoke up last time there was a proccmeta, zos listened then, so I dont for the life of me understand how they could circle right back to square one again..only worse then last time. The proccmeta is boring, toxic and devoid of any feeling of accomplishment.
to me, this proves that they just do it on random. i cant really say they listen to cries for nerfing or buffing stuff. like there is a dart in the office and do whatever it lands on it.
i would be okay with these sets, they could be fun if they didnt nerf all the stuff back then for balance and whatnot.
I'm pretty sure they do it so you have to buy the new chapter. Most people right now are running greymoor sets, which means they have to either buy the BoE sets or buy the dlc for the BoP sets. Summerset had sload's, Elsweyr had NMA and now we have all these proc sets. The question is whether at this point they think they got enough people to buy the new content and can nerf the new sets. The markarth sets probably won't be nerfed until enough people buy it via crown store (those without eso+).
This is often said about ESO and its expansions, that the reason things are so poorly tuned and overpowered at release and nerfed shortly thereafter is specifically to sell expansions. While it may look like that, I question if any player legitimately does that. And would said player be stupid enough to fall for the same buff/nerf from one expansion to the next?
And if so, why is it always the stamina sets and never a worthwhile mag set in these releases?
Elsweyr didn't have a p2w set that I can think (everyone had access to NMA) but it did have a deliberately overtuned class.
I don't agree, NMA was the most obvious scenario ever, literally hundreds of builds were changed to use NMA, you could only get it by buying expansion, then they nerf a year later, for new expansion. I actually like the changes to many of the sets that they made and love the diversity even of proc sets. Even don't care about nerf to NMA. But come on, the only other set that is this obviously p2w is Thrassian. BTW overall these p2w scenarios are NOT that bad, not game breaking, and if it keeps them funded it is smart.
NMA was easily accessible without buying Elsweyr.
I didn't say anything about buying Elsweyr? I believe you have to buy Dragonhold DLC to get Southern Elsweyr, to get the NMA crafting station. Obviously you can buy from guild trader or have someone craft a set for you. But I think most people who buy the DLC are when it first comes out before guild traders have lots of pieces available. I did exactly that.
My bad, it was dragonhold. But again,NMA was the most obvious scenario ever, literally hundreds of builds were changed to use NMA, you could only get it by buying expansion
NMA was easily accessible without purchasing anything.
Yeah, my main point is that I don't think there is a big problem with p2w in ESO but NMA and Thrassian are the closest to fit that scenario.0 -
MurderMostFoul✭✭✭✭✭
✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »Recapitated wrote: »Atherakhia wrote: »The majority of the pvp playerbase spoke up last time there was a proccmeta, zos listened then, so I dont for the life of me understand how they could circle right back to square one again..only worse then last time. The proccmeta is boring, toxic and devoid of any feeling of accomplishment.
to me, this proves that they just do it on random. i cant really say they listen to cries for nerfing or buffing stuff. like there is a dart in the office and do whatever it lands on it.
i would be okay with these sets, they could be fun if they didnt nerf all the stuff back then for balance and whatnot.
I'm pretty sure they do it so you have to buy the new chapter. Most people right now are running greymoor sets, which means they have to either buy the BoE sets or buy the dlc for the BoP sets. Summerset had sload's, Elsweyr had NMA and now we have all these proc sets. The question is whether at this point they think they got enough people to buy the new content and can nerf the new sets. The markarth sets probably won't be nerfed until enough people buy it via crown store (those without eso+).
This is often said about ESO and its expansions, that the reason things are so poorly tuned and overpowered at release and nerfed shortly thereafter is specifically to sell expansions. While it may look like that, I question if any player legitimately does that. And would said player be stupid enough to fall for the same buff/nerf from one expansion to the next?
And if so, why is it always the stamina sets and never a worthwhile mag set in these releases?
Elsweyr didn't have a p2w set that I can think (everyone had access to NMA) but it did have a deliberately overtuned class.
I don't agree, NMA was the most obvious scenario ever, literally hundreds of builds were changed to use NMA, you could only get it by buying expansion, then they nerf a year later, for new expansion. I actually like the changes to many of the sets that they made and love the diversity even of proc sets. Even don't care about nerf to NMA. But come on, the only other set that is this obviously p2w is Thrassian. BTW overall these p2w scenarios are NOT that bad, not game breaking, and if it keeps them funded it is smart.
NMA was easily accessible without buying Elsweyr.
I didn't say anything about buying Elsweyr? I believe you have to buy Dragonhold DLC to get Southern Elsweyr, to get the NMA crafting station. Obviously you can buy from guild trader or have someone craft a set for you. But I think most people who buy the DLC are when it first comes out before guild traders have lots of pieces available. I did exactly that.
My bad, it was dragonhold. But again,NMA was the most obvious scenario ever, literally hundreds of builds were changed to use NMA, you could only get it by buying expansion
NMA was easily accessible without purchasing anything.
Yeah, my main point is that I don't think there is a big problem with p2w in ESO but NMA and Thrassian are the closest to fit that scenario.
I agree with that, but I don't think NMA is a good example. I'd say the things that even smell faintly of P2W are Warden, Necro, and Mythic items.“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”4 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭like all problems in this game it just comes down to lack of cost/ free damage.
slap an ultimate cost on each proc and it will balance itself since three proc sets will be very expensive to maintain and cost you many ultimates.
Old Rungar always gives what's needed.
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard0 -
MurderMostFoul✭✭✭✭✭
✭like all problems in this game it just comes down to lack of cost/ free damage.
slap an ultimate cost on each proc and it will balance itself since three proc sets will be very expensive to maintain and cost you many ultimates.
Yep, procs offer damage without resource cost, or global cooldown cost. The only cost involved is the weapon set bonus opportunity cost. But when you compare proc set damage to added damage from stat sets, the opportunity cost there is comparatively negligible.
Interesting idea about procs costing ultimate though. Too bad it will never happen.“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »like all problems in this game it just comes down to lack of cost/ free damage.
slap an ultimate cost on each proc and it will balance itself since three proc sets will be very expensive to maintain and cost you many ultimates.
Yep, procs offer damage without resource cost, or global cooldown cost. The only cost involved is the weapon set bonus opportunity cost. But when you compare proc set damage to added damage from stat sets, the opportunity cost there is comparatively negligible.
Interesting idea about procs costing ultimate though. Too bad it will never happen.
Hang on, many 'PROC' sets have several drawbacks
1. as you say you are sacrificing other 5 piece bonuses
2. some have percent chance to trigger, which makes them very unpredictable (some sets had this removed which may be a mistake)
3. all of them have a cool down
4. most sets been changed from big proc damage to DOT which can be purged (this is ONLY to appease PVPers)
Instead of continuing to NERF everything to appease PVPer who don't want to change their play style of 'whoever smashes buttons the fastest wins', they should just add minor slayer to 3rd piece bonus on 'worst' PROC sets, that way these sets will be better for PVE but will be less attractive for PVP. Everyone Happy. BTW I've been doing lots of BG last few weeks and the most annoying thing is 3-4-4 and people not know how to do the objectives, way more than proc sets.0 -
Atherakhia✭✭✭✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »like all problems in this game it just comes down to lack of cost/ free damage.
slap an ultimate cost on each proc and it will balance itself since three proc sets will be very expensive to maintain and cost you many ultimates.
Yep, procs offer damage without resource cost, or global cooldown cost. The only cost involved is the weapon set bonus opportunity cost. But when you compare proc set damage to added damage from stat sets, the opportunity cost there is comparatively negligible.
Interesting idea about procs costing ultimate though. Too bad it will never happen.
Hang on, many 'PROC' sets have several drawbacks
1. as you say you are sacrificing other 5 piece bonuses
2. some have percent chance to trigger, which makes them very unpredictable (some sets had this removed which may be a mistake)
3. all of them have a cool down
4. most sets been changed from big proc damage to DOT which can be purged (this is ONLY to appease PVPers)
Instead of continuing to NERF everything to appease PVPer who don't want to change their play style of 'whoever smashes buttons the fastest wins', they should just add minor slayer to 3rd piece bonus on 'worst' PROC sets, that way these sets will be better for PVE but will be less attractive for PVP. Everyone Happy. BTW I've been doing lots of BG last few weeks and the most annoying thing is 3-4-4 and people not know how to do the objectives, way more than proc sets.
We just need to accept that procs are here to stay. They're fun to use (if you're stam anyway since ZOS seems opposed to let Mag have any fun in this game) and help make overland/pve content a little less tedious. So if we acknowledge they are here to stay, how do we proceed?
No matter what, the first thing we need to see ZOS do is finish what they started last patch: Remove proc chance per hit and instead convert the remaining sets to a proc-per-minute type system. By this I mean every set will proc 100% of the time based off whatever trigger they've chosen (on spell crit, on damage done, on damage taken, etc) and cannot proc again until after a cooldown. This will help make some of the more niche sets that are rarely used a little more attractive. Nerieneth for example would be a more realistic option if it always triggered on damage and simply had a cooldown.
The next most obvious thing they need to do is simply make Malacath not affect proc damage. This is probably the most important thing needed right now as a lot of the proc sets are only a problem because players can use a proc set and a heavy defensive set combined with malacath and do the same damage as a dual dps set class in medium.
Once that is done we have 2 options:
Option 1: Change battle spirit to have a larger impact on proc damage specifically.
Option 2: Change battle spirit to change proc cooldown. Double for example.
Option 2 seems the most reasonable because lets face it... damage is already reduced by 50%. Nothing should be overpowered once its damage is cut in half. If it is, it needs a nerf to begin with.
0 -
Nerhesi✭✭✭✭Nobody (I think) wants meta where proc sets just deal enough unavoidable damage to insta gib someone. That is just as bad as the previous meta of timing a delayed effect, burst, cc ult insta gib.
However the insta gibs you’re seeing like the one above are mostly after someone getting a heavy attack proc stack with another cooldown based heavy attack.
Problem is this is testing, you’re trying to pull this off on a target for testing purposes.
There is definitely a problem with some of the heavy attack stacking procs and how they self stack with skills as well.
But procs need to stay and they need to be a better choice than stats for doing damage. Otherwise we go back to the supremely boring meta where anything other than max stats is a trap.
Procs are being complained about now because they are finally viable (only with malacath) outside of BGs. They have to our perform pure stat sets for single targets and pure damage otherwise why would you ever use one.0 -
Vizirith✭✭✭✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »like all problems in this game it just comes down to lack of cost/ free damage.
slap an ultimate cost on each proc and it will balance itself since three proc sets will be very expensive to maintain and cost you many ultimates.
Yep, procs offer damage without resource cost, or global cooldown cost. The only cost involved is the weapon set bonus opportunity cost. But when you compare proc set damage to added damage from stat sets, the opportunity cost there is comparatively negligible.
Interesting idea about procs costing ultimate though. Too bad it will never happen.
Hang on, many 'PROC' sets have several drawbacks
1. as you say you are sacrificing other 5 piece bonuses
2. some have percent chance to trigger, which makes them very unpredictable (some sets had this removed which may be a mistake)
3. all of them have a cool down
4. most sets been changed from big proc damage to DOT which can be purged (this is ONLY to appease PVPers)
Instead of continuing to NERF everything to appease PVPer who don't want to change their play style of 'whoever smashes buttons the fastest wins', they should just add minor slayer to 3rd piece bonus on 'worst' PROC sets, that way these sets will be better for PVE but will be less attractive for PVP. Everyone Happy. BTW I've been doing lots of BG last few weeks and the most annoying thing is 3-4-4 and people not know how to do the objectives, way more than proc sets.
PVE and PVP are completely different animals. Caltrops, warhorn, endless hail and wall of elements are staples of pve and are rarely seen in pvp. PVP is burst and pve is sustained. PVE incoming damage is easily predicted, pvp it's not. PVE the specefic enemies do the same thing every time, pvp they don't. Pvp enemies move erractically, pve they are easy to predict. Balancing both is very difficult. Most mmo's have a little better with increasing lvl and gear rating every expansion, most don't use proc sets and if they do it is significantly less impactful on overall gameplay. To counter your points:
1. They are often far superior to normal 5 piece set bonuses in pvp.
2. Those are less of the issue, most of the ones people run today don't
3. Most do indeed and have high damage to make up for it or are a dot that you can have 100% up time on.
4. If they weren't dots it would be ridiculous. Of course only 3/6 classes have a purge, and nb has cloak dot suppression. Warden's purge is 1 at a time which in pvp about half the time you have a good 3 debuffs minimum.
Sure pvp is more about speed while pve is keeping up with mechanics and rotation. PVE is far less sensitive to fluctuations in set damage balance than pvp. What does a set being nerfed in pve mean? Depending on the level of pve, it varies from nothing to lowering your dps output but doesn't affect incoming damage at all, that boss' damage is definitive. PVP it affects your incoming damage. A set being OP in pve simply means everybody will run it... and that's it.0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »like all problems in this game it just comes down to lack of cost/ free damage.
slap an ultimate cost on each proc and it will balance itself since three proc sets will be very expensive to maintain and cost you many ultimates.
Yep, procs offer damage without resource cost, or global cooldown cost. The only cost involved is the weapon set bonus opportunity cost. But when you compare proc set damage to added damage from stat sets, the opportunity cost there is comparatively negligible.
Interesting idea about procs costing ultimate though. Too bad it will never happen.
Hang on, many 'PROC' sets have several drawbacks
1. as you say you are sacrificing other 5 piece bonuses
2. some have percent chance to trigger, which makes them very unpredictable (some sets had this removed which may be a mistake)
3. all of them have a cool down
4. most sets been changed from big proc damage to DOT which can be purged (this is ONLY to appease PVPers)
Instead of continuing to NERF everything to appease PVPer who don't want to change their play style of 'whoever smashes buttons the fastest wins', they should just add minor slayer to 3rd piece bonus on 'worst' PROC sets, that way these sets will be better for PVE but will be less attractive for PVP. Everyone Happy. BTW I've been doing lots of BG last few weeks and the most annoying thing is 3-4-4 and people not know how to do the objectives, way more than proc sets.
PVE and PVP are completely different animals. Caltrops, warhorn, endless hail and wall of elements are staples of pve and are rarely seen in pvp. PVP is burst and pve is sustained. PVE incoming damage is easily predicted, pvp it's not. PVE the specefic enemies do the same thing every time, pvp they don't. Pvp enemies move erractically, pve they are easy to predict. Balancing both is very difficult. Most mmo's have a little better with increasing lvl and gear rating every expansion, most don't use proc sets and if they do it is significantly less impactful on overall gameplay. To counter your points:
1. They are often far superior to normal 5 piece set bonuses in pvp.
2. Those are less of the issue, most of the ones people run today don't
3. Most do indeed and have high damage to make up for it or are a dot that you can have 100% up time on.
4. If they weren't dots it would be ridiculous. Of course only 3/6 classes have a purge, and nb has cloak dot suppression. Warden's purge is 1 at a time which in pvp about half the time you have a good 3 debuffs minimum.
Sure pvp is more about speed while pve is keeping up with mechanics and rotation. PVE is far less sensitive to fluctuations in set damage balance than pvp. What does a set being nerfed in pve mean? Depending on the level of pve, it varies from nothing to lowering your dps output but doesn't affect incoming damage at all, that boss' damage is definitive. PVP it affects your incoming damage. A set being OP in pve simply means everybody will run it... and that's it.
I'll assume you are explaining the super basic info about difference between PVP/PVE to noobs who might read this. There is an overarching problem that is completely unfixable. PVPers are constantly complaining about 'Balance' but the more classes/races/sets/skills are 'balanced' for PVP the more all that stuff makes PVE (and PVP actually) BORING. Part of the fun of PVE (and should be the same for PVP) is having different class/race/gear/etc. which let's you SPECIALIZE in different stuff and try different ways of playing.
And I notice all the complaints have the same root cause, PVPer who got used to killing 1vX with cheesy combos and stat/dmg stacking. But every time their innocent victims begin to get smart and use shielding, healing, tankiness, proc sets, coordinated groups, you get the same people complaining profusely "NERF EVERYTHING, I want to be able to kill 10 people without thinking so I can tell everyone how SKILLED I am."
I just hope that before they make every class/race/skill IDENTICAL to achieve 'Balance' for PVP, instead they decide to allow only limited race/class/certain sets in PVP. Like going into PVP you had 2 choices Mag/breton/templar/NMA lt/Crfty/fire/rest staff OR Stam/rdgrd/DK/NMA med/draug/2hnd/bow. But somehow even with that I think people would still whine that Mag or Stam was OP. Then they can focus on making PVE stuff cool and different.1 -
Nerhesi✭✭✭✭I'll assume you are explaining the super basic info about difference between PVP/PVE to noobs who might read this. There is an overarching problem that is completely unfixable. PVPers are constantly complaining about 'Balance' but the more classes/races/sets/skills are 'balanced' for PVP the more all that stuff makes PVE (and PVP actually) BORING. Part of the fun of PVE (and should be the same for PVP) is having different class/race/gear/etc. which let's you SPECIALIZE in different stuff and try different ways of playing.
And I notice all the complaints have the same root cause, PVPer who got used to killing 1vX with cheesy combos and stat/dmg stacking. But every time their innocent victims begin to get smart and use shielding, healing, tankiness, proc sets, coordinated groups, you get the same people complaining profusely "NERF EVERYTHING, I want to be able to kill 10 people without thinking so I can tell everyone how SKILLED I am."
I just hope that before they make every class/race/skill IDENTICAL to achieve 'Balance' for PVP, instead they decide to allow only limited race/class/certain sets in PVP. Like going into PVP you had 2 choices Mag/breton/templar/NMA lt/Crfty/fire/rest staff OR Stam/rdgrd/DK/NMA med/draug/2hnd/bow. But somehow even with that I think people would still whine that Mag or Stam was OP. Then they can focus on making PVE stuff cool and different.
This guy is dead on. 1vX is indicative of a systemic issue. I enjoy the skill ceiling - but the game shouldn't allow the super narrow meta (combined with high skill) to decimate 5-10 people over a period of time because the one (1) person is running max stats and CP is compounding the issue (free tankiness, sustain, etc). Sure skill should let you kill 1, 2 or maybe even 3 people. - but those people who are not as sweaty as us shouldn't just be food. If we get caught by a group of 4+ - then we should die, period. Not just infinitely tank around while comboing single targets.
We need more things to be viable and good than just stat stacking NMA/Alfiq/Necro/Brighthroat/etc... One of the biggest weaknesses of this game is how it advertises itself as an endlessly rich customization end-game but it is actually a super narrow meta. You have have to have different ways to play, and they have to viable and competitive. You have to have real choices in gear, where you can say, for example: "I'm gonnna equip this proc set(s) and malacath so now I can totally blow someone up" but if I lose the initiative, my heals/mitigation/max pool is so crap that I'm screwed.
On a side note, do you know that a mag or stadk will parse higher (in pvp) with pure stats than a necro running 2 (or even 3) proc sets and malacath even with their rapid rot passive? I'm talking super short 15-30 second parse too. Proc sets for the most part have more counterplay options than just eating that Fossilize and undodgeable/unblockable dots that are also applying DD pressure.
This game is a long way from having a truly competitive meta. Anything that expands it, and reduces the length of end-game pvp fights is welcome. CP rework needs to be really pushed up and support truly meaningful choices (e.g. You dont get to be tanky if you specc for damage. You dont get to do good DoT dmg and good DD dmg.)
Edited by Nerhesi on October 2, 2020 7:34PM1 -
Vizirith✭✭✭✭I'll assume you are explaining the super basic info about difference between PVP/PVE to noobs who might read this. There is an overarching problem that is completely unfixable. PVPers are constantly complaining about 'Balance' but the more classes/races/sets/skills are 'balanced' for PVP the more all that stuff makes PVE (and PVP actually) BORING. Part of the fun of PVE (and should be the same for PVP) is having different class/race/gear/etc. which let's you SPECIALIZE in different stuff and try different ways of playing.
And I notice all the complaints have the same root cause, PVPer who got used to killing 1vX with cheesy combos and stat/dmg stacking. But every time their innocent victims begin to get smart and use shielding, healing, tankiness, proc sets, coordinated groups, you get the same people complaining profusely "NERF EVERYTHING, I want to be able to kill 10 people without thinking so I can tell everyone how SKILLED I am."
I just hope that before they make every class/race/skill IDENTICAL to achieve 'Balance' for PVP, instead they decide to allow only limited race/class/certain sets in PVP. Like going into PVP you had 2 choices Mag/breton/templar/NMA lt/Crfty/fire/rest staff OR Stam/rdgrd/DK/NMA med/draug/2hnd/bow. But somehow even with that I think people would still whine that Mag or Stam was OP. Then they can focus on making PVE stuff cool and different.
This guy is dead on. 1vX is indicative of a systemic issue. I enjoy the skill ceiling - but the game shouldn't allow the super narrow meta (combined with high skill) to decimate 5-10 people over a period of time because the one (1) person is running max stats and CP is compounding the issue (free tankiness, sustain, etc). Sure skill should let you kill 1, 2 or maybe even 3 people. - but those people who are not as sweaty as us shouldn't just be food. If we get caught by a group of 4+ - then we should die, period. Not just infinitely tank around while comboing single targets.
We need more things to be viable and good than just stat stacking NMA/Alfiq/Necro/Brighthroat/etc... One of the biggest weaknesses of this game is how it advertises itself as an endlessly rich customization end-game but it is actually a super narrow meta. You have have to have different ways to play, and they have to viable and competitive. You have to have real choices in gear, where you can say, for example: "I'm gonnna equip this proc set(s) and malacath so now I can totally blow someone up" but if I lose the initiative, my heals/mitigation/max pool is so crap that I'm screwed.
On a side note, do you know that a mag or stadk will parse higher (in pvp) with pure stats than a necro running 2 (or even 3) proc sets and malacath even with their rapid rot passive? I'm talking super short 15-30 second parse too. Proc sets for the most part have more counterplay options than just eating that Fossilize and undodgeable/unblockable dots that are also applying DD pressure.
This game is a long way from having a truly competitive meta. Anything that expands it, and reduces the length of end-game pvp fights is welcome. CP rework needs to be really pushed up and support truly meaningful choices (e.g. You dont get to be tanky if you specc for damage. You dont get to do good DoT dmg and good DD dmg.)
Getting 1vx'd is usually an indicative of skill levels. Pretty good players are unlikely to be 1vx'd unless it's a major class/build counter. I consider myself just an above average player and I don't know the last time I've gotten really 1vx'd outside of a bomb/ magcro graveyard/smash combo. I have no shame in saying I've lost a 2v1 or even a 3v1 if the other player is very skilled and the other players with me are below average. Larger 1vx's come down heavily to skill and build. Heck I did a 1v 10ish during midyear mayhem because 5 of them died to my dawnbreaker, they were terrible. In cp how much cp matters of course having none and going up against a max cp player will hurt badly.
EDIT:Spelling/GrammerEdited by Vizirith on October 2, 2020 8:47PM1 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »like all problems in this game it just comes down to lack of cost/ free damage.
slap an ultimate cost on each proc and it will balance itself since three proc sets will be very expensive to maintain and cost you many ultimates.
Yep, procs offer damage without resource cost, or global cooldown cost. The only cost involved is the weapon set bonus opportunity cost. But when you compare proc set damage to added damage from stat sets, the opportunity cost there is comparatively negligible.
Interesting idea about procs costing ultimate though. Too bad it will never happen.
Hang on, many 'PROC' sets have several drawbacks
1. as you say you are sacrificing other 5 piece bonuses
2. some have percent chance to trigger, which makes them very unpredictable (some sets had this removed which may be a mistake)
3. all of them have a cool down
4. most sets been changed from big proc damage to DOT which can be purged (this is ONLY to appease PVPers)
Instead of continuing to NERF everything to appease PVPer who don't want to change their play style of 'whoever smashes buttons the fastest wins', they should just add minor slayer to 3rd piece bonus on 'worst' PROC sets, that way these sets will be better for PVE but will be less attractive for PVP. Everyone Happy. BTW I've been doing lots of BG last few weeks and the most annoying thing is 3-4-4 and people not know how to do the objectives, way more than proc sets.
PVE and PVP are completely different animals. Caltrops, warhorn, endless hail and wall of elements are staples of pve and are rarely seen in pvp. PVP is burst and pve is sustained. PVE incoming damage is easily predicted, pvp it's not. PVE the specefic enemies do the same thing every time, pvp they don't. Pvp enemies move erractically, pve they are easy to predict. Balancing both is very difficult. Most mmo's have a little better with increasing lvl and gear rating every expansion, most don't use proc sets and if they do it is significantly less impactful on overall gameplay. To counter your points:
1. They are often far superior to normal 5 piece set bonuses in pvp.
2. Those are less of the issue, most of the ones people run today don't
3. Most do indeed and have high damage to make up for it or are a dot that you can have 100% up time on.
4. If they weren't dots it would be ridiculous. Of course only 3/6 classes have a purge, and nb has cloak dot suppression. Warden's purge is 1 at a time which in pvp about half the time you have a good 3 debuffs minimum.
Sure pvp is more about speed while pve is keeping up with mechanics and rotation. PVE is far less sensitive to fluctuations in set damage balance than pvp. What does a set being nerfed in pve mean? Depending on the level of pve, it varies from nothing to lowering your dps output but doesn't affect incoming damage at all, that boss' damage is definitive. PVP it affects your incoming damage. A set being OP in pve simply means everybody will run it... and that's it.
I'll assume you are explaining the super basic info about difference between PVP/PVE to noobs who might read this. There is an overarching problem that is completely unfixable. PVPers are constantly complaining about 'Balance' but the more classes/races/sets/skills are 'balanced' for PVP the more all that stuff makes PVE (and PVP actually) BORING. Part of the fun of PVE (and should be the same for PVP) is having different class/race/gear/etc. which let's you SPECIALIZE in different stuff and try different ways of playing.
And I notice all the complaints have the same root cause, PVPer who got used to killing 1vX with cheesy combos and stat/dmg stacking. But every time their innocent victims begin to get smart and use shielding, healing, tankiness, proc sets, coordinated groups, you get the same people complaining profusely "NERF EVERYTHING, I want to be able to kill 10 people without thinking so I can tell everyone how SKILLED I am."
I just hope that before they make every class/race/skill IDENTICAL to achieve 'Balance' for PVP, instead they decide to allow only limited race/class/certain sets in PVP. Like going into PVP you had 2 choices Mag/breton/templar/NMA lt/Crfty/fire/rest staff OR Stam/rdgrd/DK/NMA med/draug/2hnd/bow. But somehow even with that I think people would still whine that Mag or Stam was OP. Then they can focus on making PVE stuff cool and different.
I don't know how You've managed to do that but every little bit of that post is incorrect. It's one of those comments that are so wrong I don't even know is it worth responding to them in substantive way.Edited by Juhasow on October 2, 2020 9:39PM6 -
Recapitated✭✭✭✭'whoever smashes buttons the fastest wins'
Not sure how you can continue to say this in every second post while complaining that animation canceling requires practice.
Either it's mindless button-mashing or there's a specific timing that you have to practice until you get it right, meaning pressing buttons faster doesn't help you.1 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yeah... that NMA nerf really hasn't aged well. I love to theorycraft and haven't used it in a single build since the nerfPC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭I'll assume you are explaining the super basic info about difference between PVP/PVE to noobs who might read this. There is an overarching problem that is completely unfixable. PVPers are constantly complaining about 'Balance' but the more classes/races/sets/skills are 'balanced' for PVP the more all that stuff makes PVE (and PVP actually) BORING. Part of the fun of PVE (and should be the same for PVP) is having different class/race/gear/etc. which let's you SPECIALIZE in different stuff and try different ways of playing.
And I notice all the complaints have the same root cause, PVPer who got used to killing 1vX with cheesy combos and stat/dmg stacking. But every time their innocent victims begin to get smart and use shielding, healing, tankiness, proc sets, coordinated groups, you get the same people complaining profusely "NERF EVERYTHING, I want to be able to kill 10 people without thinking so I can tell everyone how SKILLED I am."
I just hope that before they make every class/race/skill IDENTICAL to achieve 'Balance' for PVP, instead they decide to allow only limited race/class/certain sets in PVP. Like going into PVP you had 2 choices Mag/breton/templar/NMA lt/Crfty/fire/rest staff OR Stam/rdgrd/DK/NMA med/draug/2hnd/bow. But somehow even with that I think people would still whine that Mag or Stam was OP. Then they can focus on making PVE stuff cool and different.
This guy is dead on. 1vX is indicative of a systemic issue. I enjoy the skill ceiling - but the game shouldn't allow the super narrow meta (combined with high skill) to decimate 5-10 people over a period of time because the one (1) person is running max stats and CP is compounding the issue (free tankiness, sustain, etc). Sure skill should let you kill 1, 2 or maybe even 3 people. - but those people who are not as sweaty as us shouldn't just be food. If we get caught by a group of 4+ - then we should die, period. Not just infinitely tank around while comboing single targets.
We need more things to be viable and good than just stat stacking NMA/Alfiq/Necro/Brighthroat/etc... One of the biggest weaknesses of this game is how it advertises itself as an endlessly rich customization end-game but it is actually a super narrow meta. You have have to have different ways to play, and they have to viable and competitive. You have to have real choices in gear, where you can say, for example: "I'm gonnna equip this proc set(s) and malacath so now I can totally blow someone up" but if I lose the initiative, my heals/mitigation/max pool is so crap that I'm screwed.
On a side note, do you know that a mag or stadk will parse higher (in pvp) with pure stats than a necro running 2 (or even 3) proc sets and malacath even with their rapid rot passive? I'm talking super short 15-30 second parse too. Proc sets for the most part have more counterplay options than just eating that Fossilize and undodgeable/unblockable dots that are also applying DD pressure.
This game is a long way from having a truly competitive meta. Anything that expands it, and reduces the length of end-game pvp fights is welcome. CP rework needs to be really pushed up and support truly meaningful choices (e.g. You dont get to be tanky if you specc for damage. You dont get to do good DoT dmg and good DD dmg.)
Yeah, I remember when I first tried IC it was after I had been tanking for quite a while and could tank just about all Vet dungeons with ease. Then I come in IC and get killed in like 3 seconds. And in Cyrodiil me and several people would get killed very fast by 1 or 2 gankers a lot. There is a difference between PVE and PVP but this is too dramatically upsetting for newbies and made it so I only did PVP during events for a long time. Now I do BG and really like it, the toxic nature of PVP in the beginning probably stops many people from doing it long enough to 'git gud' or git ok.
The gear and skills are very important to be able to do PVP, but I think the most important step is when you learn not to freak out. LIterally the instant I stopped freaking out when I get attacked, I was able to counter and start to kill players 1 on 1. Now in BG I can hold my own 1 on 1 and usually only die when 2-4 gang up on me. If my group stays together we can mow everyone down. My Stam toons kill faster than Mag toons currently but neither has the issues most people are complaining about on the forum. BTW I like all the variety and think there should be some builds/play styles that you have to learn how to counter instead of making everything the same, boring setup AKA balanced, especially nerfing PVE.
The funny thing is I can see those cheesy combos from a mile away now and they hardly phase me. And when I don't instantly die, the gankers are out of resources no ULT and I counter attack and can usually kill them. Or just leave them and go back to the objectives, if it is death match then they must die though. It is amazing how stupid some of these players are to be honest, after I kill them they chase me around the map, while my team and I are capturing flags, taking the ball or whatever.
Here's something else that is funny, on my sorcs I slot Matriarch which take up 2 slots but gives good heals to me and my team mates. And just by healing my team mates at the proper time throughout some fights is the difference between us killing the other group or them killing us. This is obvioiusly why they removed group queue from BG originally I think, because PVP, DPS, 1vXers are mostly selfish and arrogant and with any coordination at all they are easy to kill.
Anyway thanks, glad to see some different points of view in the comments.Edited by Merforum on October 3, 2020 7:52AM1 -
cheesefome✭✭✭Ya ive almost had enough of this game. Nothing worst than fighting a tank with 30k health and nothing but proc sets. They dont even need damage to be bursty.1
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ecru✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'll assume you are explaining the super basic info about difference between PVP/PVE to noobs who might read this. There is an overarching problem that is completely unfixable. PVPers are constantly complaining about 'Balance' but the more classes/races/sets/skills are 'balanced' for PVP the more all that stuff makes PVE (and PVP actually) BORING. Part of the fun of PVE (and should be the same for PVP) is having different class/race/gear/etc. which let's you SPECIALIZE in different stuff and try different ways of playing.
And I notice all the complaints have the same root cause, PVPer who got used to killing 1vX with cheesy combos and stat/dmg stacking. But every time their innocent victims begin to get smart and use shielding, healing, tankiness, proc sets, coordinated groups, you get the same people complaining profusely "NERF EVERYTHING, I want to be able to kill 10 people without thinking so I can tell everyone how SKILLED I am."
I just hope that before they make every class/race/skill IDENTICAL to achieve 'Balance' for PVP, instead they decide to allow only limited race/class/certain sets in PVP. Like going into PVP you had 2 choices Mag/breton/templar/NMA lt/Crfty/fire/rest staff OR Stam/rdgrd/DK/NMA med/draug/2hnd/bow. But somehow even with that I think people would still whine that Mag or Stam was OP. Then they can focus on making PVE stuff cool and different.
This guy is dead on. 1vX is indicative of a systemic issue. I enjoy the skill ceiling - but the game shouldn't allow the super narrow meta (combined with high skill) to decimate 5-10 people over a period of time because the one (1) person is running max stats and CP is compounding the issue (free tankiness, sustain, etc). Sure skill should let you kill 1, 2 or maybe even 3 people. - but those people who are not as sweaty as us shouldn't just be food. If we get caught by a group of 4+ - then we should die, period. Not just infinitely tank around while comboing single targets.
We need more things to be viable and good than just stat stacking NMA/Alfiq/Necro/Brighthroat/etc... One of the biggest weaknesses of this game is how it advertises itself as an endlessly rich customization end-game but it is actually a super narrow meta. You have have to have different ways to play, and they have to viable and competitive. You have to have real choices in gear, where you can say, for example: "I'm gonnna equip this proc set(s) and malacath so now I can totally blow someone up" but if I lose the initiative, my heals/mitigation/max pool is so crap that I'm screwed.
On a side note, do you know that a mag or stadk will parse higher (in pvp) with pure stats than a necro running 2 (or even 3) proc sets and malacath even with their rapid rot passive? I'm talking super short 15-30 second parse too. Proc sets for the most part have more counterplay options than just eating that Fossilize and undodgeable/unblockable dots that are also applying DD pressure.
This game is a long way from having a truly competitive meta. Anything that expands it, and reduces the length of end-game pvp fights is welcome. CP rework needs to be really pushed up and support truly meaningful choices (e.g. You dont get to be tanky if you specc for damage. You dont get to do good DoT dmg and good DD dmg.)
The problem with this attitude that you should lose 1v2 or 1v3 most times, or 1v4 every time, is that the mechanics in ESO just don't allow for this to happen. ESO is quite different from most other MMOs in that you have very good self heals and mitigation while suffering very few penalties for it. There are a lot of skills or mechanics you would never see in any other game, such as ranged dps matching melee, mobility skills like streak existing without cooldowns, repeatedly healing yourself to full in a few gcd's, etc. In every other game you sacrifice damage for mitigation, you sacrifice damage for range, you sacrifice mitigation for high damage, or range for high damage, etc etc.
This probably won't ever change. The basic mechanics of how the game works, how classes are built, how easily you can hybridize, those things aren't going away in ESO unless there is a major overhaul to self healing, block, roll dodge, major reductions in ranged damage, etc. I think most players like the game how it is, for the most part. There definitely needs to be some balance decisions in the opposite direction, such as reigning in ranged damage/mobility/mitigation (not all three at once, but something has to give) since they sacrifice just about nothing for it, and even in some cases melee mobility or abilities that allow you to dictate the terms of a fight (streak, shadow image, cloak, etc) but overall the ability to hybridize your build into a lot of different things is what makes ESO, ESO.Edited by ecru on October 13, 2020 11:42PMGryphon Heart
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