Ritual of Retribution

Nemesis7884 · July 2020

some ideas for ritual of retribution, since its called retribution, it should have a retribution aspect to it which also fits the theme of a retribution melee paladin type character:

- applying minor maim to enemies inside
- enemies inside take x% more damage from your attacks
- while inside the ritual, every time you take damage in crease your weapon damage by x for x up to x stacks
- The ritual heals you for the damage caused OR while inside the ritual you heal for a portion of the damage you cause

Apox · July 2020

revert the change. the healing loss is substantial and the damage gain is negligible. literally a couple hundred dps difference on my 90k pts parse

stamplar healing is already weaker than other classes. crit surge heals for more per tic every second than RoR does every 2 seconds and theres no requirement to stand in its aoe and has a 30 second duration. grim focus and siphoning attacks heal significantly more with no requirement to stand in the aoe, so on and so forth

about the only other class i can see that gets shafted on self heals is maybe stamdk, but even they have their utility.

nobody asked for this change. please revert the dps back to before and give its heal back.

BalticBlues · July 2020

100% agreement to the majority of votes in this thead.
This expensive morph now is crippled so badly that
almost nobody will use this expensive morph anymore.

Moreover, this skill is part of the RESTORING LIGHT skill branch,
but with the PTS nerf reducing it to damage, there is (almost) NO RESTORING anymore.
Does this make sense? No. This nerf cripples not only the functionality but also the Templar identity.

Koubo · July 2020

I was doing a couple of vMA run yesterday, and thought how much i'll miss RoR since it's a safe zone on the ground that help me sustain incoming damage.
And I dont want imagine PvP. I struggle enough with the curent state, the next one will be ... Hard i suppose. Even if RoR(PTS) is bad, it might be used for PvE dps because of nothing better (please, do something ?!?) while the ER should be better in PvP (and i play cuasually PvP)

Sometime i just fight people and they can recover full life easily while ... it's really hard as a Stamplar. (my opinion) Spaming Rally and Vigor dosent help 8/10 time. We bearly see any Stamplar in PvP anyway and there is a reason for that

Kadoin · July 2020

Aznarb wrote: »

The change is good, an ability should never do dmg and heal at the same time, that always a bad thing balance wise.
This ability is overloaded since so long it doesn't surprise me it get finally nerf.

That not like this ability was doing
- purge
- synergy for everyone like orb
- heal
- damage
- minor mending, thx to passive
- extremely high radius

What happen now ?
Morph 1 : You still get everything but healing
Morph 2 : You still get everything but dmg

The only problem with that list is that you are looking at the skill in isolation. The class lacks elsewhere, like a reliable hp% self-heal or other heal mechanic that doesn't need stat investment.

That's part of the issue with changing the skill, templar simply seems starved of damaging skills AND heals this patch, and they want to make the problem worse?

I would be fine with the change if they actually changed more on the class instead of just handing out nerfs. Right now on live I don't see any reason to use a templar, especially in PvP, over a DK or Magwarden for tank and healing, and I don't see the damage advantage over any other mag class.

The only useful thing about the class is built-in purge, but mag warden gets that for free. And purge is ultimately just a damage reduction mechanic, and that mechanic is still inferior to major protection. So what's the point and where is the advantage?

It's not even really the best healing class, certainly not in PvP unless you use a crappy ult or run in a ball group. Even then you can consistently get higher heals on every other class besides necro, and to top that off it takes no real stat investment of any kind on the other classes. What, then, is the advantage templars even have?

Templars need a rework because they have nerfed the class too hard and removed everything that it was balanced around: major mending, major protection, minor protection with constant uptime, snare on sacred ground, etc. - the class is definitely no where near as powerful as people believe.

But it's okay because eventually templars will get buffed, when ZOS realizes that over 5 skills on the class are mostly garbage in PvP and PvE that aren't worth slots, but are only slotted because there is nothing else and the class actually lacks damage outside a crappy spammable that still has collision issues.

Me? I'll be on my DK until they realize that and forum users like you wake up.

Healing class, inferior to all other classes at healing besides one. Balance.

LuxLunae · July 2020

When zos made warden and necro...they destroyed templar over and over again removing it's identity and watering it down to create "newer" classes....

I only use 3 templar skills....out of 10 skills....3 of them....

With this new change it might fall down to one....Jabs.....

and like in Gintama, how shinpachi can be considered his glasses....

Templar can be considered his jabs...

Replace every templar you see with a jab stick...because that's pretty much what it is...

I play stamplar btw...

Jesiah5 · July 2020

If I may add my voice to the discussion....As a Templar Healer for 4+ Years I have specialized in helping other players having difficulties completing content whether it be 4-man Dungeons or 12-Man Raids. While I feel I have all the tools necessary to heal anywhere, supporting my party with additional damage where I could has really helped in some encounters. Ritual of Retribution has been essential in fulfilling this role. If this change goes through, it would make helping newer/less experienced players more difficult and much less appealing. Please do NOT go through with this change!

*edit* If there really is an issue with this skill doing damage automatically while healing, make the additional damage or healing conditional on a heavy attack similar to how healers receive Major Mending healing bonus on Restoration Staff Heavy attack, I don't think removing the healing completely is the right move. This way you are rewarding skillful play while mitigating any "free additional damage/healing" anyone may be concerned about.

Athan1 · July 2020

At present this skill is important for the Templar toolkit, especially for tanks. Tankplars and stamplars are already at a really bad place, this will make them even worse. I get it, templars were meant to be the healer class, but now Warden or necros can fulfill that role too... Please stop shrinking templars to magplar healers. I tried stamplars and tankplars and honestly their toolkits were extremely limited and not fun to play with. Retribution was one of the skills that made these roles a little viable and now this will be taken away from us.

Please stop the constant nerfs to templars, we literally get them every patch, without significant buffs to even it out. I want to play a more diverse templar, not just a healbot.

Nemesis7884 · July 2020

LuxLunae wrote: »

When zos made warden and necro...they destroyed templar over and over again removing it's identity and watering it down to create "newer" classes....

I only use 3 templar skills....out of 10 skills....3 of them....

With this new change it might fall down to one....Jabs.....

and like in Gintama, how shinpachi can be considered his glasses....

Templar can be considered his jabs...

Replace every templar you see with a jab stick...because that's pretty much what it is...

I play stamplar btw...

yeah stamplar just lacks identity...

stefj68 · July 2020

I try on pts to play my stamplar on pve contents with rally / vigor... and it doesnt make it 6 times out of 10... really hoping Ritual of Retribution changes dont go lives, please revisit and reconcider...

Cireous · July 2020

So ritual of retribution got slaughtered as well. Oh, awesome. Seriously, what the actual F. Stop F'ing with all my healing stuff. Stop it right now.

Koubo · July 2020

We will see tomorrow the next PTS patch, i hope for news tbh

Cinbri · July 2020

Well, lets be honest, even if its lazy/bad change - it still fair coz its in line of how similar skills of other classes got treated. Similarly to Sweep ult - even tho noone likes casttimes, it was still unfair that templar ult didnt had one while other similar ults got it.

Koubo · July 2020

Cinbri wrote: »

Well, lets be honest, even if its lazy/bad change - it still fair coz its in line of how similar skills of other classes got treated. Similarly to Sweep ult - even tho noone likes casttimes, it was still unfair that templar ult didnt had one while other similar ults got it.

Problem is, Templar (and Stamplar specifically) is really bad in PvP. If changes have to be made, they shouldn't put a underwelming class even lower, which is what happen. Stamplar (and StamDDs) are not welcome in PvE most of the time either because the meta is only about magicka. I builded a MagDD for that, for flexibility and guess what i made? MagPlar yes! This is off topic but ZOS should considering doing something about the balance between Magicka and Stamina right now (PvE wise, i dont have any opinion about PvP balance between both)

Less healing on a class that is already limited while being the "lighty healer" of the game... And no heal scale on HP (just a shield with only Magicka morph) and many USELESS skill we dont even levelup (I didn't) !
Burst limited and even more complicated with BL and BackLash's changes (PvP mostly. This dosent change PvE that much but we cant really tell or even test because PTS isn't a good area to make PvE test & feedback (latency etc) If i agree that bugs should be fixed (and there is way more annoying in my opinion) this shouldn't be done without considering how it will hurt the class. If something is "meh" with a bug, how it should perform when it's fixed?!? It just make sense to me...
Jab's changes make it weird to use, either slower or have to re-learn to weave with it. I personally dont have a big opinion on it because of latency on PTS (from my experience, my DPS PTS is lower but it's kinda expected with 200+ latency. However, many reported that it was annoying, slower, cluncky...

Personally i wish (and i wont quote all the feedbacks and suggestions here because there is plenty!!! from players with more experience than me)

More Stam Morph for Templar's skill (Focused Charge, Sun Shield?!?)
Rework Eclipse
Reword Passives

I play since 3.5 month or something. I spent, and invest a lot in my first character (Stamplar) and decided to build a MagPlar (Aka BeamPlar) to be able to swap between Mag&Stam to fit the group. If both become useless/underwelming, with low utility (no synergy, self heal, support heal/debuff... unique things that make a class usefull for a group...) they probably will lose a player. It's not a threat, just a fact... I'm aleady half bored because it's really hard to join group trial (aka : need that exp to do that) even with decent to good stats (i cleared vMA deathless around 500 CP after 1.5 month of playing, reach 91.5K dps dumie without a perfected gear. It's not the best, i know. But it's not bad either and everyone know that too)

TLDR : Dont put Templars into a grave ... They should have their place in the game, and should be able to compet VS class, complete other class in groups and so on... Thanks

Cinbri · July 2020

Koubo wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Well, lets be honest, even if its lazy/bad change - it still fair coz its in line of how similar skills of other classes got treated. Similarly to Sweep ult - even tho noone likes casttimes, it was still unfair that templar ult didnt had one while other similar ults got it.

Problem is, Templar (and Stamplar specifically) is really bad in PvP. If changes have to be made, they shouldn't put a underwelming class even lower, which is what happen. Stamplar (and StamDDs) are not welcome in PvE most of the time either because the meta is only about magicka. I builded a MagDD for that, for flexibility and guess what i made? MagPlar yes! This is off topic but ZOS should considering doing something about the balance between Magicka and Stamina right now (PvE wise, i dont have any opinion about PvP balance between both)
Less healing on a class that is already limited while being the "lighty healer" of the game... And no heal scale on HP (just a shield with only Magicka morph) and many USELESS skill we dont even levelup (I didn't) !

Burst limited and even more complicated with BL and BackLash's changes (PvP mostly. This dosent change PvE that much but we cant really tell or even test because PTS isn't a good area to make PvE test & feedback (latency etc) If i agree that bugs should be fixed (and there is way more annoying in my opinion) this shouldn't be done without considering how it will hurt the class. If something is "meh" with a bug, how it should perform when it's fixed?!? It just make sense to me...

Jab's changes make it weird to use, either slower or have to re-learn to weave with it. I personally dont have a big opinion on it because of latency on PTS (from my experience, my DPS PTS is lower but it's kinda expected with 200+ latency. However, many reported that it was annoying, slower, cluncky...

Personally i wish (and i wont quote all the feedbacks and suggestions here because there is plenty!!! from players with more experience than me)
More Stam Morph for Templar's skill (Focused Charge, Sun Shield?!?)

Rework Eclipse

Reword Passives

I play since 3.5 month or something. I spent, and invest a lot in my first character (Stamplar) and decided to build a MagPlar (Aka BeamPlar) to be able to swap between Mag&Stam to fit the group. If both become useless/underwelming, with low utility (no synergy, self heal, support heal/debuff... unique things that make a class usefull for a group...) they probably will lose a player. It's not a threat, just a fact... I'm aleady half bored because it's really hard to join group trial (aka : need that exp to do that) even with decent to good stats (i cleared vMA deathless around 500 CP after 1.5 month of playing, reach 91.5K dps dumie without a perfected gear. It's not the best, i know. But it's not bad either and everyone know that too)

TLDR : Dont put Templars into a grave ... They should have their place in the game, and should be able to compet VS class, complete other class in groups and so on... Thanks

I agree and now when skills were fixed it will be especially noticable how much they underperforming and it is perfect opportunity to push for much needed changes. We must focus on it.

Altyrann · July 2020

Cinbri wrote: »

Well, lets be honest, even if its lazy/bad change - it still fair coz its in line of how similar skills of other classes got treated. Similarly to Sweep ult - even tho noone likes casttimes, it was still unfair that templar ult didnt had one while other similar ults got it.

The cast time is irritating but only minor for me (PvE perspective). The Ritual change may look similar when compared, for example, to NB Path, but doesn't account for Templar not having an effective built in HoT elsewhere on par with NB.

Koubo · July 2020

Altyrann wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Well, lets be honest, even if its lazy/bad change - it still fair coz its in line of how similar skills of other classes got treated. Similarly to Sweep ult - even tho noone likes casttimes, it was still unfair that templar ult didnt had one while other similar ults got it.

The cast time is irritating but only minor for me (PvE perspective). The Ritual change may look similar when compared, for example, to NB Path, but doesn't account for Templar not having an effective built in HoT elsewhere on par with NB.

Beside, making all skills from different classes lookalike isn't great for diversity. At this point, why bother with classes?!?

Maulkin · July 2020

Koubo wrote: »

Altyrann wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Well, lets be honest, even if its lazy/bad change - it still fair coz its in line of how similar skills of other classes got treated. Similarly to Sweep ult - even tho noone likes casttimes, it was still unfair that templar ult didnt had one while other similar ults got it.

The cast time is irritating but only minor for me (PvE perspective). The Ritual change may look similar when compared, for example, to NB Path, but doesn't account for Templar not having an effective built in HoT elsewhere on par with NB.

Beside, making all skills from different classes lookalike isn't great for diversity. At this point, why bother with classes?!?

Diversity shouldn't be at the expense of balance, that's a pretty poor excuse.

Altyrann wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Well, lets be honest, even if its lazy/bad change - it still fair coz its in line of how similar skills of other classes got treated. Similarly to Sweep ult - even tho noone likes casttimes, it was still unfair that templar ult didnt had one while other similar ults got it.

The cast time is irritating but only minor for me (PvE perspective). The Ritual change may look similar when compared, for example, to NB Path, but doesn't account for Templar not having an effective built in HoT elsewhere on par with NB.

Are you talking about Magicka or Stamina? Because Sweeps and PotL are very strong heals while damaging, far stronger than NB self-heals, with the caveat they aren't actual HoTs. For which you can always slot an actual hot like Ritual. Or a burst heal like HotR. You know, options that NBs do not have.

If you're talking about stamina then Leeching Strikes is the only thing they have. Which is superior to current Stamplar admittedly, since Stamplar has nothing.

Maulkin · July 2020

maxjapank wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

Maybe they aren't NB mains. Maybe they don't feel NBs need buffs. Maybe "buff my class" is not a very solid approach to balancing if the game isn't going to suffer from enormous power creep which is unhelpful to absolutely everyone.

Altyrann · July 2020

Maulkin wrote: »

Koubo wrote: »

Altyrann wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Well, lets be honest, even if its lazy/bad change - it still fair coz its in line of how similar skills of other classes got treated. Similarly to Sweep ult - even tho noone likes casttimes, it was still unfair that templar ult didnt had one while other similar ults got it.

The cast time is irritating but only minor for me (PvE perspective). The Ritual change may look similar when compared, for example, to NB Path, but doesn't account for Templar not having an effective built in HoT elsewhere on par with NB.

Beside, making all skills from different classes lookalike isn't great for diversity. At this point, why bother with classes?!?

Diversity shouldn't be at the expense of balance, that's a pretty poor excuse.

Altyrann wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Well, lets be honest, even if its lazy/bad change - it still fair coz its in line of how similar skills of other classes got treated. Similarly to Sweep ult - even tho noone likes casttimes, it was still unfair that templar ult didnt had one while other similar ults got it.

The cast time is irritating but only minor for me (PvE perspective). The Ritual change may look similar when compared, for example, to NB Path, but doesn't account for Templar not having an effective built in HoT elsewhere on par with NB.

Are you talking about Magicka or Stamina? Because Sweeps and PotL are very strong heals while damaging, far stronger than NB self-heals, with the caveat they aren't actual HoTs. For which you can always slot an actual hot like Ritual. Or a burst heal like HotR. You know, options that NBs do not have.

If you're talking about stamina then Leeching Strikes is the only thing they have. Which is superior to current Stamplar admittedly, since Stamplar has nothing.

I meant specifically heal over time. Passive healing over time is often far preferable to something that needs activating.

Maulkin · July 2020

maxjapank wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

Maybe they aren't NB mains. Maybe they don't feel NBs need buffs. Maybe "buff my class" is not a very solid approach to balancing if the game isn't going to suffer from enormous power creep which is unhelpful to absolutely everyone.

[Quoted post was removed]

We didn't pitch in with unnecessary changes. ZOS already made changes to something they saw fit to nerf and we're merely explaining why it made sense, [snip]

The only changes I've pitched in with in this thread, were actually Stamplar buffs. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Miloscpolski · July 2020

MellowMagic wrote: »

This skill Morph losing its heal makes it hard to consider slotting for a Stamplar now.

Despite the fact that it scales with your highest offensive stats it still does only magic damage. It should function similarly to Soul trap which does physical or magic damage based on your highest stats.

I dont think the heal should've been removed completely, a token 50-75% heal reduction compared to the other morph would allow stamplars to potentially trigger the newly updated passive, plus it just seems silly that this massive glowing aura of light....doesn't heal at all, even if it was an insignificant weak heal. I will be probably slotting extended for both pvp and pve now if this morph goes live.

Are you sure this magical pool looks like physical damage? Where did you get the idea that magic effects and skills should be physical?

Milli_Rabbit · July 2020

I'll be honest, I rarely used Ritual of Retribution for the heal. I used it for the purge and the passive damage for using my magicka pool that would otherwise be at 100% all of the time. As a Stamplar, like every other Stam class, I use Vigor for heals and Rune Focus for damage reduction in both solo and group play. I do hope they change ritual to physical damage though and make it stronger to counter losing the heal. I also hope they make it something we can aim instead of drop it where we stand. Easier to damage that way.

MellowMagic · July 2020

Miloscpolski wrote: »

MellowMagic wrote: »

This skill Morph losing its heal makes it hard to consider slotting for a Stamplar now.

Despite the fact that it scales with your highest offensive stats it still does only magic damage. It should function similarly to Soul trap which does physical or magic damage based on your highest stats.

I dont think the heal should've been removed completely, a token 50-75% heal reduction compared to the other morph would allow stamplars to potentially trigger the newly updated passive, plus it just seems silly that this massive glowing aura of light....doesn't heal at all, even if it was an insignificant weak heal. I will be probably slotting extended for both pvp and pve now if this morph goes live.

Are you sure this magical pool looks like physical damage? Where did you get the idea that magic effects and skills should be physical?

Please see the abilty soul trap for reference.

ZOS_ConnorG · July 2020

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove multiple posts for Baiting and Non-Constructive Back and forth. Please ensure when engaging in a discussion that you do so in a civil and constructive manner that is within the rules, even if you disagree with something within the discussion or another user.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

Cinbri · July 2020

In the light of upcoming AoE tests theoretically having Retribtuion morph will be even less desirable as possible fixes to aoe spam might result in global cooldown.

Miloscpolski · July 2020

MellowMagic wrote: »

Miloscpolski wrote: »

MellowMagic wrote: »

This skill Morph losing its heal makes it hard to consider slotting for a Stamplar now.

Despite the fact that it scales with your highest offensive stats it still does only magic damage. It should function similarly to Soul trap which does physical or magic damage based on your highest stats.

I dont think the heal should've been removed completely, a token 50-75% heal reduction compared to the other morph would allow stamplars to potentially trigger the newly updated passive, plus it just seems silly that this massive glowing aura of light....doesn't heal at all, even if it was an insignificant weak heal. I will be probably slotting extended for both pvp and pve now if this morph goes live.

Are you sure this magical pool looks like physical damage? Where did you get the idea that magic effects and skills should be physical?

Please see the abilty soul trap for reference.

Okay, yes, playing 6 years in teso, I don't know what you think about this ability, this is the same nonsense, I keep in touch

MellowMagic · July 2020

Miloscpolski wrote: »

MellowMagic wrote: »

Miloscpolski wrote: »

MellowMagic wrote: »

This skill Morph losing its heal makes it hard to consider slotting for a Stamplar now.

Despite the fact that it scales with your highest offensive stats it still does only magic damage. It should function similarly to Soul trap which does physical or magic damage based on your highest stats.

I dont think the heal should've been removed completely, a token 50-75% heal reduction compared to the other morph would allow stamplars to potentially trigger the newly updated passive, plus it just seems silly that this massive glowing aura of light....doesn't heal at all, even if it was an insignificant weak heal. I will be probably slotting extended for both pvp and pve now if this morph goes live.

Are you sure this magical pool looks like physical damage? Where did you get the idea that magic effects and skills should be physical?

Please see the abilty soul trap for reference.

Okay, yes, playing 6 years in teso, I don't know what you think about this ability, this is the same nonsense, I keep in touch

Many skills appear magical yet do physical damage. The class spammable jabs for instance? This is about balance not what feels more realistic in a magical made up world.

montiferus · July 2020

Milli_Rabbit wrote: »

I'll be honest, I rarely used Ritual of Retribution for the heal. I used it for the purge and the passive damage for using my magicka pool that would otherwise be at 100% all of the time. As a Stamplar, like every other Stam class, I use Vigor for heals and Rune Focus for damage reduction in both solo and group play. I do hope they change ritual to physical damage though and make it stronger to counter losing the heal. I also hope they make it something we can aim instead of drop it where we stand. Easier to damage that way.

No end game player consistently slots Vigor (VMA yes but very little 4 man content and certainly not in a trial). There is no way they are ever going to buff the damage to the point when you aren't going to miss the heal. On an 81k parse Ritual accounts for 3.2% of my damage. I don't need the damage boost. Please revert.

This is fairly typical of ZOS. They make changes to an ability literally nobody asked to alter.

the1andonlyskwex · July 2020

montiferus wrote: »

Milli_Rabbit wrote: »

I'll be honest, I rarely used Ritual of Retribution for the heal. I used it for the purge and the passive damage for using my magicka pool that would otherwise be at 100% all of the time. As a Stamplar, like every other Stam class, I use Vigor for heals and Rune Focus for damage reduction in both solo and group play. I do hope they change ritual to physical damage though and make it stronger to counter losing the heal. I also hope they make it something we can aim instead of drop it where we stand. Easier to damage that way.

No end game player consistently slots Vigor (VMA yes but very little 4 man content and certainly not in a trial). There is no way they are ever going to buff the damage to the point when you aren't going to miss the heal. On an 81k parse Ritual accounts for 3.2% of my damage. I don't need the damage boost. Please revert.

This is fairly typical of ZOS. They make changes to an ability literally nobody asked to alter.

People have been asking for buffs to Ash Cloud, Path of Darkness, and Lightning Splash using RoR as their point of comparison for a long time. It's a lot easier to nerf one morph than to buff 6.

Also, if RoR is such an insignificant part of your damage and you only use it for the heal, maybe you should just use extended ritual or vigor instead.