Ritual of Retribution

the1andonlyskwex

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

People sure love to forget that Ritual costs like 4k magicka. Yes it is a powerful spell with lots of effects, but it is expensive as hell. The only way I was ever able to afford casting it to begin with was by using Blood for Blood instead of sweeps. Now that won't be an option doubly because of anti-healing from BfB as well as no more healing from RoR. An no, a dps will not run a mediocre heal over time skill in their rotation just to use BfB.

You should look at what Ash Cloud costs.

It also has almost double the duration. That is why its cost is justified.

Is there anyone who would be against reducing the base duration and cost of Ash Cloud by 20% (from 15s to 12s)?

Not with its current tiny area of effect. If the radius were increased to 12m (like RoR), instead of 5m, the duration might be more useful.

honey_badger82

I stated this in another post. To me this is a class identity skill for my playstyle. A templar is a holy warrior and the closest thing the game has to a DDO Paladin. The current form of RoR fits the paladin role perfectly, it says stay out to enemies and come find shelter here to their comrades. It was the utility of both the HoT and DoT aspect that made it worthwhile. Neither did massive amounts, it was every 2 sec as well and not 1 sec like most DoTs and HoTs. As a stamplar I have only what a sharpened weapon gives for spell resistance pen. That means in a dungeon the DoT was trivial since it does magicka damage. Costing magicka is another thing that made the morph a no brainer to use as a stamplar. I have already removed it from my playstyle as sadly ZOS could have a unanimous voice from all forum users not to change it and we would still get a GFY we do what we want from them.

Gorreck

honey_badger82 wrote: »

I stated this in another post. To me this is a class identity skill for my playstyle.

The way things are going Jabs could be gone by the patch after this, I'm honestly wondering if they even remember Stamplars exist at this point.

Koubo

Gorreck wrote: »

honey_badger82 wrote: »

I stated this in another post. To me this is a class identity skill for my playstyle.

The way things are going Jabs could be gone by the patch after this, I'm honestly wondering if they even remember Stamplars exist at this point.

What can it be done that can make things worse than they will ?

MellowMagic

Koubo wrote: »

Gorreck wrote: »

honey_badger82 wrote: »

I stated this in another post. To me this is a class identity skill for my playstyle.

The way things are going Jabs could be gone by the patch after this, I'm honestly wondering if they even remember Stamplars exist at this point.

What can it be done that can make things worse than they will ?

They'll probably make jabs single target, but if they do that and they better give us something else to compensate because they'll be the worst aoe class if they do.

Koubo

MellowMagic wrote: »

Koubo wrote: »

Gorreck wrote: »

honey_badger82 wrote: »

I stated this in another post. To me this is a class identity skill for my playstyle.

The way things are going Jabs could be gone by the patch after this, I'm honestly wondering if they even remember Stamplars exist at this point.

What can it be done that can make things worse than they will ?

They'll probably make jabs single target, but if they do that and they better give us something else to compensate because they'll be the worst aoe class if they do.

We're already prety bad (Stamplar at least) in my opinion. And ye, if they change Jab to ST, they definitly should add something even to the skill otherwise it wont even worth using it (it's a channeling in case ZOS want to ZoS'ed us even more)

At this point, i leveled a StamCro and just try to be good with it. My hope are low so even if they go futher, at least i have few back up. If they do right, i'll be glad to stay on my main of course. But after more than 15 years of MMOs, i was more desapointed than happy from that kind of changes so i'm not expecting much now

stefj68

i want a class change token for my stamplar... i dont want to regrind 18k of achievements all over on a new toons, and they finally kill it

Kardrik

honey_badger82 wrote: »

I stated this in another post. To me this is a class identity skill for my playstyle. A templar is a holy warrior and the closest thing the game has to a DDO Paladin. The current form of RoR fits the paladin role perfectly, it says stay out to enemies and come find shelter here to their comrades. It was the utility of both the HoT and DoT aspect that made it worthwhile. Neither did massive amounts, it was every 2 sec as well and not 1 sec like most DoTs and HoTs. As a stamplar I have only what a sharpened weapon gives for spell resistance pen. That means in a dungeon the DoT was trivial since it does magicka damage. Costing magicka is another thing that made the morph a no brainer to use as a stamplar. I have already removed it from my playstyle as sadly ZOS could have a unanimous voice from all forum users not to change it and we would still get a GFY we do what we want from them.

Literally no one wants this, or considers RoR to be overpowered.
Apparently ZoS decided a cast that heals allies but damages enemies is OP by design.

As weak as it was I considered RoR to be part of the Templar's identity. Sure the other morph might be strictly better, but I always liked the idea of the holy warrior that heals allies and damages enemies, even if he is not great at either.
I removed it as well, if ZoS wanted people to stop slotting RoR they did their job. Now its nothing more than a super expensive and weak DoT with a self cleanse.

Firstmep

Kardrik wrote: »

honey_badger82 wrote: »

I stated this in another post. To me this is a class identity skill for my playstyle. A templar is a holy warrior and the closest thing the game has to a DDO Paladin. The current form of RoR fits the paladin role perfectly, it says stay out to enemies and come find shelter here to their comrades. It was the utility of both the HoT and DoT aspect that made it worthwhile. Neither did massive amounts, it was every 2 sec as well and not 1 sec like most DoTs and HoTs. As a stamplar I have only what a sharpened weapon gives for spell resistance pen. That means in a dungeon the DoT was trivial since it does magicka damage. Costing magicka is another thing that made the morph a no brainer to use as a stamplar. I have already removed it from my playstyle as sadly ZOS could have a unanimous voice from all forum users not to change it and we would still get a GFY we do what we want from them.

Literally no one wants this, or considers RoR to be overpowered.
Apparently ZoS decided a cast that heals allies but damages enemies is OP by design.

As weak as it was I considered RoR to be part of the Templar's identity. Sure the other morph might be strictly better, but I always liked the idea of the holy warrior that heals allies and damages enemies, even if he is not great at either.
I removed it as well, if ZoS wanted people to stop slotting RoR they did their job. Now its nothing more than a super expensive and weak DoT with a self cleanse.

They changed path of darkness and ash cloud way back on the same premise, even though people were against those changes too.
In their minds this is just levelling the playing field, same as with adding a cast time to radial sweep, even tough it only has 1 morph that's actually decent.
They pretty much killed off the last shred of reason to use empowering sweep at this point and IMHO the morph would need to be reworked now, especially with the burning light changes in mind.

maxjapank

Kardrik wrote: »

Literally no one wants this, or considers RoR to be overpowered.

Well, Templars don't want this. But there are some who think it's overpowered. But they are non-Templars and are incapable of looking at the whole picture. Cleansing Ritual was nerfed once already when they took out the snare from the passive. But with the healing removed from RoR, it makes zero sense to use it anymore.

For one, the heal from Cleansing Ritual is the main thing needed, used in both pve and pvp. No one is gonna want to pay gold and spend time changing morphs constantly for different content. And with Extended cleansing 5 harmful effects, it's a no brainer. Only reason RoR was worth running over Extended was for the dmg alone. But you made a trade by only cleansing 2 harmful effects.

Two, the cost of RoR is around 4800 vs. 3800 for blazing spear. And with the way burning light works now I think more might use blazing spear to ensure procs are happening.

Three, we already get minor mending from Rune Focus. So that argument non-Templars use for Cleansing Ritual is silly. The regen gain from Rune Focus is too good to pass up. It's also our source of Major Resolve.

I just don't see anyone using RoR. As a magplar, I'll just stick with Wall of Elements which easily procs weapon enchants and status effects. And use Blazing spear to help with burning light procs. And since Extended Ritual lasts 24 secs, I won't have to spend twice as much magicka casting RoR (sometimes much more in pvp cause of harmful effects). So I can focus more on sweeps. As a stamplar, I don't know.

honey_badger82

It's almost like ZoS was like; "you know what's not broke and no one is complaining about? RoR... yeah! ....Let's f*** with it."
And then on the other hand they say; "we want better class identity" while at the same time removing ALL class identity from Templars.

So my DPS stamplar uses only 4 templar abilities, Jabs because templar is jabs, PoL, Restoring focus and repentance. I relotted vigor after I read about the RoR nerf because I knew they are going to do it irreguardless the communities cries of outrage. I could get by before with just Rally and RoR for my healing power in PVE.
My stamplar tank switched over to extended Ritual so now when I am turtled up I provide 0 damage to the groups output besides the occasional PoL pop and sometimes Radiant Ward when getting mobbed (would be awesome if this did physical dmg but no...90% of templar abilities are magicka based)

Templars are my favorite class to play, I have 3 total 1x stam DPS, 1x Stam Tank/Dps hybrid and 1x magplar healer. They are rapidly making all 3 rely more on skills outside of their class. Out of 12 slots for skills my healer probably slots the most at 8 and the other two just 4.

I have been a paid player since I started 2 years ago. They are biting the hand that feeds... soon it will stop feeding if they continue to bite.

Kardrik

RoR would feel better with a snare, would be a real reason for enemies to want to keep out as well as allies to stay in, which I think was the original point of RoR.

Shame that its losing its identity because the devs felt like it.

montiferus

So I've done some new parses with Stonehorn and I am getting about 1k DPS boost from the change. As expected it is completely not worth the damage boost compared with the healing lost. Really bad change.

If Zos needed to appeal to the low APM crybabies they should have reduced the radius and removed the cleanse. That way we could still have a HOT and some damage. Now I will probably have to change morphs for my VMA runs. Also sucks to no longer have a group HOT. Bringing stam to trials is hard enough and we now just lost one of the few group utilities that stamplar has.

furiouslog

I hate the new RoR. It's not a useful skill anymore in any circumstances. It cost too much to put into a dungeon/trial DPS rotation without the heal - orb is cheaper and does more damage. It's too underpowered to be an effective DOT in PvP or for solo. It's just a purge for two skills with some damage and a moderate synergy benefit - too many other skills already do everything it does but better. I tried it for a day in trials, dungeons, and PvP, parsed with it, and then morphed it, and I'm not looking back until they make it decent again. Dead skill. It's a shame, because it was one of the most useful and flexible skills in my toolset.

the1andonlyskwex

furiouslog wrote: »

I hate the new RoR. It's not a useful skill anymore in any circumstances. It cost too much to put into a dungeon/trial DPS rotation without the heal - orb is cheaper and does more damage. It's too underpowered to be an effective DOT in PvP or for solo. It's just a purge for two skills with some damage and a moderate synergy benefit - too many other skills already do everything it does but better. I tried it for a day in trials, dungeons, and PvP, parsed with it, and then morphed it, and I'm not looking back until they make it decent again. Dead skill. It's a shame, because it was one of the most useful and flexible skills in my toolset.

Welcome to the world everyone else was already living in. New RoR is basically the same as Lightning Flood and Eruption, except its synergy is better.

Gorreck

Koubo wrote: »

Gorreck wrote: »

honey_badger82 wrote: »

I stated this in another post. To me this is a class identity skill for my playstyle.

The way things are going Jabs could be gone by the patch after this, I'm honestly wondering if they even remember Stamplars exist at this point.

What can it be done that can make things worse than they will ?

I'm frankly worried that Jabs cooldown will both stay and maybe move out of Cyrodiil.

Athan1

Well, that's another useless Templar morph. Our list keeps decreasing

honey_badger82

I could see if they actually changed it so it was useful but they didn't. They butchered it and made it so literally no player will use it. It is a ability in the healing line... that doesn't heal inherently... it's only identity to the skill line is a healing synergy and 2 measly one time purges per cast.
If they want to have a damaging "healer" ability then they need to increase the DoT to 1 sec ticks and the purge to act like the wardens netch, 2 negative effects purged initial cast and 1 every 4 seconds. They also need the damage type to scale to your highest stat therefore stamplar would do physical damage over magic. I would begrudgingly use the morph once again.
The way they are destroying this morph makes it all Retribution and no ritual. Heck they could make it so that it functioned like PoL for the heal, stored damage done to all enemies in the circle up to a certain amount then healed all group members standing in the circle once it expired. You still get a heal just not a HoT. Outside the giant glowing circle on the ground? Well... hope you didn't need that heal...

stefj68

think now im using only 3 skills from the templar on my stamplar on 15 lol
no more class identity

Kardrik

stefj68 wrote: »

think now im using only 3 skills from the templar on my stamplar on 15 lol
no more class identity

Same, Stamplar barely feels like a Templar anymore.

montiferus

I stand corrected BTW. Just checked my parses and its a 700 DPS boost. LOL. Laughable.

It now represents a whopping 4% of my total DPS.

I also get to now re-morph for the healing version every time I want to do VMA.

GG Zos.

Gorreck

stefj68 wrote: »

think now im using only 3 skills from the templar on my stamplar on 15 lol
no more class identity

If Jabs goes, I think that is it for the Stamplar.

kambo_trick3yub17_ESO

I'm in agreement. This change has effectively killed the Magplar DPS/Heal playstyle, it all centered around this move and now it's completely gone and now we're pidgeonholed into strict roles.

Throwing in my vote to revert the changes on the table as well.

Kardrik

Changes went live, unfortunately.

Koubo

Kardrik wrote: »

Changes went live, unfortunately.

And this is really bad. I really feel the difference between before and after with my Stamplar. Self sustain only rely on Vigor now.
Yes, the holy [snip] class cant heal herself with own ability. NICE JOB ZOS

Yes, we could also use the other morph but it's a DPS loss, yes RoR dosent provide much but it's free DPS from Magicka pool. We just dont have any other options right now which is insanely SAD ! I tried different things instead of RoR and we just cant sustain another Stam skill on our rotation for a 21M Dumie parse.

[Edited to remove Profanity]

Mrtoobyy

Well I don't know what else to say, all of you guys has said it so well already.

As a templar main since Beta I sure have felt the impact of different changes to the class throughout the years... and right now I would say that Templar is in it's worst place ever.

Kardrik

I'm not sure if I said this idea, but this is a change has 0 support from the community. If anyone had anything to say about the change, is that it is either bad or unneeded.
Not a single person said "You know what, this is a good change. RoR puts templar over the top, healing and damaging in the same utility is unbalanceable and overpowered. Good on changing that"

Who said that here? No one, not a single soul.
And the devs went along with it anyway, nothing but negative feedback, and they go with it anyway.

the1andonlyskwex

Kardrik wrote: »

I'm not sure if I said this idea, but this is a change has 0 support from the community. If anyone had anything to say about the change, is that it is either bad or unneeded.
Not a single person said "You know what, this is a good change. RoR puts templar over the top, healing and damaging in the same utility is unbalanceable and overpowered. Good on changing that"

Who said that here? No one, not a single soul.
And the devs went along with it anyway, nothing but negative feedback, and they go with it anyway.

While you're right that nobody's been asking for RoR nerfs, tons of people have been using RoR as a point of reference to ask for Ash Cloud, Path of Darkness, and Lightning Splash buffs. It looks like ZOS decided it was preferable to nerf one skill than to buff three. Was that the right decision? I don't know, but this change definitely didn't come out of nowhere.

Koubo

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Kardrik wrote: »

I'm not sure if I said this idea, but this is a change has 0 support from the community. If anyone had anything to say about the change, is that it is either bad or unneeded.
Not a single person said "You know what, this is a good change. RoR puts templar over the top, healing and damaging in the same utility is unbalanceable and overpowered. Good on changing that"

Who said that here? No one, not a single soul.
And the devs went along with it anyway, nothing but negative feedback, and they go with it anyway.

While you're right that nobody's been asking for RoR nerfs, tons of people have been using RoR as a point of reference to ask for Ash Cloud, Path of Darkness, and Lightning Splash buffs. It looks like ZOS decided it was preferable to nerf one skill than to buff three. Was that the right decision? I don't know, but this change definitely didn't come out of nowhere.

[snip] other classes have tool to sustain themself. Like, MagBlad is just overload and probably one of the best selfsustain class only because of Shallow soul.

[snip]

I'm really pissed about this change.

[Edited to remove Bashing and Profanity]

EvilSculptor

I don't understand what ZOS's objective is, but templar is becoming more and more obsolete. The class was no longer very good, now it sucks in every aspect.

They took healing, took DPS, took sustain...

The RoR was useful for several occasions, for example:
1 - could be used in groups of trash mobs, helping to kill them, and healed the group of players a little
2 - if I was the only player alive, it allowed me to resurrect without dying from DoT or adds that the bosses could spawn, and took some HP from them.
3 - etc etc etc

The skill is quite expensive, people talk as if we use this skill as our "spammable skill" and are immortal and do a lot of damage with it. WRONG!
People say that RoR was a unique skill. It's true, but if we look at it this way, there would also be a lot of "unique" skills to take nerf, and there would be no class differentiation in the game.

The problem is that many players prefer the other classes to be nerfed, even if they are already crap, than ask to review their own skills, , and the company decides to go the path of least effort, and prefers to ruin one class, than amend two or three.

Words cannot describe the frustration of people who play with this class. I speak for myself, I lost the complete desire to play, I had a character, which was a balanced char, not OP, and now I have a char that sucks, that doesn't kill, that doesn't "tank", or that heals, and there's no way to put it good.

As Magplar, and my only character, I lost a lot of DPS (about 25k - I was already counting on taking a cut because of the Stranglers, but this is overkill...), which is frustrating and ridiculous. My execution skill now gives almost HALF of the damage it did, I lost healing, and because the skills are quite expensive and the sustain is crap, I am forced to use sets that also took nerf.
What am I supposed to do? Spend money to change a skill's morph? Use skills that suck? Losing even more DPS and some health for acceptable sustain?...