justaquickword wrote: »What this lag should teach most of you is that making a new post about it on the forum every day won't make a blind bit of difference.
MilkJugg24 wrote: »As someone who's seen this game since it was in closed beta in 2013, I've gotta say, the game hasn't really evolved much past its original conception.
TequilaFire wrote: »What it has taught us is that most don't know what they are talking about but are going to talk about it anyway.
xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »What it has taught us is that most don't know what they are talking about but are going to talk about it anyway.
This made me smile thnx @TequilaFire
rager82b14_ESO wrote: »The light/heavy attack "weaving" sucks, and animation canceling is tedious..that all this combat lag has taught us is that we really need a reworked combat system.
That is what I'm saying since years and have posted a couple of times - the base reason for all the lag is the combat system and it's mechanics, which are prone to cause all kind of bottleneck issues leading to lag. Not going to happen though, because ZOS is proud of their twitchy combat system with much too many AoE and DoT effects.
Wait what? How is "the combat system" causing lag?
Are you saying that because combat is so fast, small amounts of lag quickly becomes a problem? That makes sense. But I don't think that's *causing* the performance problems.
i think they do - whenever I am in a location with many players who use a lot of effects and AoE/DoT latency is spiking and the game starts to stutter and even gets me frozen for a moment where I can do nothing at all. And this is with not even a lot of people around, just a few fire up skills with lots of effects at the same time. I can just imagine how terrible this is in cyro then, where even more effects stack on each other because everyone is running their rotations - it is definitely the combat system which is creating the problems in the first place, because too many too expensive effects are stacked onto each other, and even worse if it happens in ball groups or wherever many players fight with each other. There is the reason and trying to fix that by soft- and hardware will just fight the symptoms but not the origin of all this mess.
I'm not a game engineer but I believe "stuttering" is more due to your own PC struggling with the graphics. I have that problem too at times, but it's not an issue with their servers and afaik it's not really related to the combat system perse. It's true that rendering spell effects can kill fps if your client is struggling. But the worst stutter/fps problems I get are in capital cities, where there's lots of players but very little combat going on besides one or two duels.
They released a patch recently that was supposed to make this better but for me at least made it worse. It'd be nice if the client were better optimized, but it's a problem that *can* be solved by getting a better PC and/or adjusting graphics settings.
The cyrodiil problems people are talking about are server problems and game bugs that are an issue no matter how awesome your gaming PC is.
Edit: You may have seen this already, but just in case this guide on performance settings by alcast helped me reduce my stutter problems.
https://alcasthq.com/eso-increase-performance-guide/
So, the lag is teaching us that the combat is the issue and not the lag? Yeah, that seems right.
rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »What irks me the most about all this is that the combat is becoming so far off from the idea that it was suppose to be. All because of a exploit they did not know how to fix, and went from calling it a bug, to a feature. The people saying the combat has nothing to do with the lag is being silly, The servers use to be much better before people found out and now the exploit is require for end game content. It at last caught up, and damage has been done.
The combat design needs to go back to what it use to be. Choices, and more toggles to improve weaving, and skills being a action to take at a certain point in combat, not spammable. The only spammable action should be light and heavy attacks.
Go back to your first idea of what the combat should be. Don't let this exploit keep ruining servers, and keep ruining the end game.
The Servers also used to be better before serverside checks were implemented, guess which one had a bigger Impact on Server Performance?
It was not better, in fact i think it did improve it. But it was not enough. The servers went from an 8 to a 6 it is still not playable enough, and more needs to be done to stop this exploit, and to get the servers under control.
Sanguinor2 wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »What irks me the most about all this is that the combat is becoming so far off from the idea that it was suppose to be. All because of a exploit they did not know how to fix, and went from calling it a bug, to a feature. The people saying the combat has nothing to do with the lag is being silly, The servers use to be much better before people found out and now the exploit is require for end game content. It at last caught up, and damage has been done.
The combat design needs to go back to what it use to be. Choices, and more toggles to improve weaving, and skills being a action to take at a certain point in combat, not spammable. The only spammable action should be light and heavy attacks.
Go back to your first idea of what the combat should be. Don't let this exploit keep ruining servers, and keep ruining the end game.
The Servers also used to be better before serverside checks were implemented, guess which one had a bigger Impact on Server Performance?
rager82b14_ESO wrote: »justaquickword wrote: »What this lag should teach most of you is that making a new post about it on the forum every day won't make a blind bit of difference.
Or that it is a harder problem to fix. This new team i'm willing to give a chance too, the old leaders who rather call bug exploits that did not know how to fix, "features" i'm glad they are gone. These new people, I want to give a chance, and understand that a magic bullet won't fix all the problems.
So, the lag is teaching us that the combat is the issue and not the lag? Yeah, that seems right.
it certainly is - this game just can't handle many people in a small space fighting or using skills whilst just kidding around. so instead of trying to solve this technically, i would suggest to look at the cause of the problem not just fight the symptoms.
Most gaming companies are quite careful with implementing AoE and DoT wherever people tend to be in close quarters and overlap their effects - ZOS on the other side doesn't seem to have considered this and so the problem arose from overusing these bottleneck-inducing features. It is less a computation problem but a messaging problem which chokes the system and creates high latency.
So, the lag is teaching us that the combat is the issue and not the lag? Yeah, that seems right.
it certainly is - this game just can't handle many people in a small space fighting or using skills whilst just kidding around. so instead of trying to solve this technically, i would suggest to look at the cause of the problem not just fight the symptoms.
Most gaming companies are quite careful with implementing AoE and DoT wherever people tend to be in close quarters and overlap their effects - ZOS on the other side doesn't seem to have considered this and so the problem arose from overusing these bottleneck-inducing features. It is less a computation problem but a messaging problem which chokes the system and creates high latency.
The game ran fine for years. The issue now isn't the combat, it's the servers. Yes, there are bottleneck features and mechanics, but those weren't a problem for years. OP wants to change weaving and canceling, that's ridiculous. Weaving is a standard mmo mechanic. Canceling is weaving sped up. Its really that easy. Of all the things that should be done right now, overhauling the core combat system is the absolute last thing they should be doing. Case in point, the last "performance" update changed a core mechanic and has left combat worse than ever.
rager82b14_ESO wrote: »justaquickword wrote: »What this lag should teach most of you is that making a new post about it on the forum every day won't make a blind bit of difference.
Or that it is a harder problem to fix. This new team i'm willing to give a chance too, the old leaders who rather call bug exploits that did not know how to fix, "features" i'm glad they are gone. These new people, I want to give a chance, and understand that a magic bullet won't fix all the problems.
OP, besides the false tales you are spinning here that Zos was not intelligent enough to "fix" AC and weaving basic attacks, I am pleased to inform you that the same people still run this show as have for the last 13 years. Matt Firor has been the top person all those years, and Rich Lambert has also been making the big decisions about the game all this time.
So besides the fact the same people still run the show as have been since early in this game development, the realized to remove AC required making combat in this game into slow and boring combat like WoW, FF14 and SWTOR have. They realized that players drawn to ESO have risen above such simplistic designs and are interested in the fast-paced, action-oriented combat we have here in ESO. Zos has even specifically stated they know this combat system is a big part of what sets ESO apart from other MMORPGs. Considering ESO's success, despite the lag, they clearly have the intelligence to know they have made a wise decision on the basic design of combat in ESO.
Buy more crowns
rager82b14_ESO wrote: »The light/heavy attack "weaving" sucks, and animation canceling is tedious..that all this combat lag has taught us is that we really need a reworked combat system.
That is what I'm saying since years and have posted a couple of times - the base reason for all the lag is the combat system and it's mechanics, which are prone to cause all kind of bottleneck issues leading to lag. Not going to happen though, because ZOS is proud of their twitchy combat system with much too many AoE and DoT effects.
Buy more crowns
Like really why not gut the the whole combat system out, and turn the game into a child friendly vanity sims for RPrs... JK
Don't do that.
But really you change the combat system too much your giving people a different game, not the action packed MMO they've come to enjoy. And if people are going to be playing a different game they might not choose ESO.
The best games require the highest APM to stay entertaining. There's only so much thrill in pressing buttons. Part of it is the intensity, if you slow things down you undo it.
So, the lag is teaching us that the combat is the issue and not the lag? Yeah, that seems right.
it certainly is - this game just can't handle many people in a small space fighting or using skills whilst just kidding around. so instead of trying to solve this technically, i would suggest to look at the cause of the problem not just fight the symptoms.
Most gaming companies are quite careful with implementing AoE and DoT wherever people tend to be in close quarters and overlap their effects - ZOS on the other side doesn't seem to have considered this and so the problem arose from overusing these bottleneck-inducing features. It is less a computation problem but a messaging problem which chokes the system and creates high latency.
The game ran fine for years. The issue now isn't the combat, it's the servers. Yes, there are bottleneck features and mechanics, but those weren't a problem for years. OP wants to change weaving and canceling, that's ridiculous. Weaving is a standard mmo mechanic. Canceling is weaving sped up. Its really that easy. Of all the things that should be done right now, overhauling the core combat system is the absolute last thing they should be doing. Case in point, the last "performance" update changed a core mechanic and has left combat worse than ever.
So, the lag is teaching us that the combat is the issue and not the lag? Yeah, that seems right.
it certainly is - this game just can't handle many people in a small space fighting or using skills whilst just kidding around. so instead of trying to solve this technically, i would suggest to look at the cause of the problem not just fight the symptoms.
Most gaming companies are quite careful with implementing AoE and DoT wherever people tend to be in close quarters and overlap their effects - ZOS on the other side doesn't seem to have considered this and so the problem arose from overusing these bottleneck-inducing features. It is less a computation problem but a messaging problem which chokes the system and creates high latency.
The game ran fine for years. The issue now isn't the combat, it's the servers. Yes, there are bottleneck features and mechanics, but those weren't a problem for years. OP wants to change weaving and canceling, that's ridiculous. Weaving is a standard mmo mechanic. Canceling is weaving sped up. Its really that easy. Of all the things that should be done right now, overhauling the core combat system is the absolute last thing they should be doing. Case in point, the last "performance" update changed a core mechanic and has left combat worse than ever.
True, combat, specifically AC and weaving basic attacks, are not the culprit with the declining server performance. The game, and especially Cyrodiil, use to run much smoother than today and we have AC and weaving of basic attacks all along.
That is a fact.
However, I dispute that OP wants to change weaving and AC. They want it removed as they are just plain complaining about it and trying to blame it on our lag. Look at the history of threads they have created. They have complained about it before and several other core aspects of the game. They started complaining about the game, and developers, since before the game launched.
rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Buy more crowns
Like really why not gut the the whole combat system out, and turn the game into a child friendly vanity sims for RPrs... JK
Don't do that.
But really you change the combat system too much your giving people a different game, not the action packed MMO they've come to enjoy. And if people are going to be playing a different game they might not choose ESO.
The best games require the highest APM to stay entertaining. There's only so much thrill in pressing buttons. Part of it is the intensity, if you slow things down you undo it.
This logic is also faulty to me. You do need a certain amount of APM, but this game is not a elder scrolls game anymore. When the buttons you press don't really add much and you just spam them out as fast as the GCD lets you. It requires no skill. In fact too much APM takes away skill. Good combat, requires choices to be made. Along with decent apm. Not just spam skills as fast as you can. Spam all your buffs up as fast as you can. It is sad, and people wanting a combat revamp wants a more skilled base combat not base off mindless speed of spamming skills on gcd.
I mean TONS of things that need to happen that im so amazed they have not done. Like healing stacking as well as dots., and lets not even talk about Mitigation. Like we just stack too much stuff and the servers cry out in pain.
It is not just AC that needs to be fixed, but healing needs a total revamp also. It does not matter how much APM you want if the game keeps playing like it is now.
The developers right now keep doing weird changes to dodges, and avoiding the main issues.
rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »justaquickword wrote: »What this lag should teach most of you is that making a new post about it on the forum every day won't make a blind bit of difference.
Or that it is a harder problem to fix. This new team i'm willing to give a chance too, the old leaders who rather call bug exploits that did not know how to fix, "features" i'm glad they are gone. These new people, I want to give a chance, and understand that a magic bullet won't fix all the problems.
OP, besides the false tales you are spinning here that Zos was not intelligent enough to "fix" AC and weaving basic attacks, I am pleased to inform you that the same people still run this show as have for the last 13 years. Matt Firor has been the top person all those years, and Rich Lambert has also been making the big decisions about the game all this time.
So besides the fact the same people still run the show as have been since early in this game development, the realized to remove AC required making combat in this game into slow and boring combat like WoW, FF14 and SWTOR have. They realized that players drawn to ESO have risen above such simplistic designs and are interested in the fast-paced, action-oriented combat we have here in ESO. Zos has even specifically stated they know this combat system is a big part of what sets ESO apart from other MMORPGs. Considering ESO's success, despite the lag, they clearly have the intelligence to know they have made a wise decision on the basic design of combat in ESO.
It is not false. As you can tell from my name. I was around and a tester for the game. I've been around, I know more than most of the community when it comes to what designs, what has been said, and what they failed to fix. And turn around and lie to our faces saying it is a feature, when they tried to fix the same problem two patches ago.
Your logic is wrong, The combat was design for not having AC. They tried to fix it, and failed. Had to roll back the changes, and when they at last found out that they was not skilled enough to fix the problem, or it would take them too long. They started talking about it being a feature.
That is a simple fact, a history lesson for you. I'm calling a spade a spade when it comes to the developers. This combat design was not what was promise, and not what we testers signed up for, and tested for. They could not fix it, and so instead of players calling these people exploiting the system out and reporting them. The devs did the only logical thing they could have done, to prevent a civil war with each other. Called it a feature.
Now adding more skills, more things, and people exploiting more and more. The servers are crying, and it is the developers own fault for not getting this problem fixed when we asked them to do it.
If it is not false then back it up with actual facts. Prove that Zos decided to leave AC in the game because they did not know how to fix it. My logic is sound and at least I have logic. You are just complaining about something and trying to blame it for other
What is funny is you claim my logic is wrong, yet you demonstrated a lack of knowledge of the history of this game since launch in your reply to @Sanguinor2 because they were spot on, accurate, with their facts that moving from a trusted client to having the servers make more checks increased the lag. It was a significant turning point.
I guess that was during your extended absence from the game.
The game, especially Cyrodiil, performed much better, though never perfect before then, and oddly enough AC and weaving of basic attacks were part of the game there. Kind of inconvenient for you that they brought that fact into the thread.
In the end, and after looking at your history of complaining about this game, and the devs, I think a different game is more to your liking. I would suggest staying away from games with highly active combat as they tend to have AC. Maybe WoW or FF14. Just a thought since the recent mid-cycle PTS test Zos did seemed to indicate Zos has every intention to keep weaving in the game. Another fact that is based on Zos' actual actions and comments.
rager82b14_ESO wrote: »So, the lag is teaching us that the combat is the issue and not the lag? Yeah, that seems right.
it certainly is - this game just can't handle many people in a small space fighting or using skills whilst just kidding around. so instead of trying to solve this technically, i would suggest to look at the cause of the problem not just fight the symptoms.
Most gaming companies are quite careful with implementing AoE and DoT wherever people tend to be in close quarters and overlap their effects - ZOS on the other side doesn't seem to have considered this and so the problem arose from overusing these bottleneck-inducing features. It is less a computation problem but a messaging problem which chokes the system and creates high latency.
The game ran fine for years. The issue now isn't the combat, it's the servers. Yes, there are bottleneck features and mechanics, but those weren't a problem for years. OP wants to change weaving and canceling, that's ridiculous. Weaving is a standard mmo mechanic. Canceling is weaving sped up. Its really that easy. Of all the things that should be done right now, overhauling the core combat system is the absolute last thing they should be doing. Case in point, the last "performance" update changed a core mechanic and has left combat worse than ever.
True, combat, specifically AC and weaving basic attacks, are not the culprit with the declining server performance. The game, and especially Cyrodiil, use to run much smoother than today and we have AC and weaving of basic attacks all along.
That is a fact.
However, I dispute that OP wants to change weaving and AC. They want it removed as they are just plain complaining about it and trying to blame it on our lag. Look at the history of threads they have created. They have complained about it before and several other core aspects of the game. They started complaining about the game, and developers, since before the game launched.
indeed look at the history of my post. It shows that I know what I am talking about, and called this problem out for years and years. Just like I said at the start.
AC is just one of many problems this game has. Heal stacking is another one. The point is the combat needs a revamp, The servers won't be fixed until it happens.
and I don't mean the silly dodge rolls changes.