So what this lag is teaching us is.

justaquickword

What this lag should teach most of you is that making a new post about it on the forum every day won't make a blind bit of difference.

rager82b14_ESO

justaquickword wrote: »

What this lag should teach most of you is that making a new post about it on the forum every day won't make a blind bit of difference.

Or that it is a harder problem to fix. This new team i'm willing to give a chance too, the old leaders who rather call bug exploits that did not know how to fix, "features" i'm glad they are gone. These new people, I want to give a chance, and understand that a magic bullet won't fix all the problems.

MilkJugg24

As someone who's seen this game since it was in closed beta in 2013, I've gotta say, the game hasn't really evolved much past its original conception.

When the developers call something a "combat update", the first thing that comes to mind is changing how the game engine functions based on a user's character input. Not simply changing some numbers around and fixing some bugs. The Light Attack and Heavy Attack system has not been touched since launch, and honestly, it feels kind of sad. I feel no satisfaction using a heavy attack with a two-handed weapon versus one with dual-wielding one-handed weapons. I think there should be a combat rework that includes major changes to weapon types and how they function, whilst making unique archetypes that help players find a unique playstyle that best suits them.

Heavy attacks with one-handed weapons should multi-hit like they do in Skyrim, not swipe simultaneously for a single stat of damage. Two-handers should be slower, but each be slightly unique. For a refresher, two-handed axes caused bleeding, swords could attack faster, and war-hammers had armor penetration. Blocking would also need to be reworked to accommodate these changes.

If these performance improvements do actually affect the game positively, now would be the best time to introduce an improved combat system to cleanse the pallet a bit.

Ghnami

MilkJugg24 wrote: »

As someone who's seen this game since it was in closed beta in 2013, I've gotta say, the game hasn't really evolved much past its original conception.

This.

So hard this. There were and are so many different ways you could make this game fun and engaging for old and new players by fundamentally changing the way combat works in the game, but nope, buy a new mount and some broken endgame content and we'll keep this broken train running another 20 years! I came back after a long time away and was impressed with how much better the game seemed than when I left, and a couple months later have done a complete 180 because the game literally GOT WORSE in performance and seems to be trending towards worse balance.

rager82b14_ESO

I mean I will give a prime example. Toggles. Recall Nightblades Leeching Strikes? How it use to be a toggle. A choice? You did less damage, but gain sustain? That was good game design. It was a choice players made, and it worked well with some builds. Now it is a buff you got to press every so often, and the choice is pretty much gone from it.


What happen to good game design choices like that?


I use to have a Death Knight build that was not even close to top end damage, but it was fun. Heavy armor, Light and heavy attacks that did good damage, sure not bursty but it was fun. Leeching sustain, 2hand sword just because it added to the flavor. The only damage skill he had was Killers blade to finish people off. All his damage came from light and heavy. It was so much fun, Trying to do a build like that now they changed so many skills. You got to keep up your buffs all the time! ugh.

xXMeowMeowXx

TequilaFire wrote: »

What it has taught us is that most don't know what they are talking about but are going to talk about it anyway.

This made me smile thnx @TequilaFire

rager82b14_ESO

xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

What it has taught us is that most don't know what they are talking about but are going to talk about it anyway.

This made me smile thnx @TequilaFire

Sure does, it was such a witty comment by them. Dismiss what people have to say, because herp derp whatever. Reason why I ignored them. They are not worth my time.

itsfatbass

In b4 lock

Nomad1098

So, the lag is teaching us that the combat is the issue and not the lag? Yeah, that seems right.

Lysette

worrallj wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

The light/heavy attack "weaving" sucks, and animation canceling is tedious..that all this combat lag has taught us is that we really need a reworked combat system.

That is what I'm saying since years and have posted a couple of times - the base reason for all the lag is the combat system and it's mechanics, which are prone to cause all kind of bottleneck issues leading to lag. Not going to happen though, because ZOS is proud of their twitchy combat system with much too many AoE and DoT effects.

Wait what? How is "the combat system" causing lag?

Are you saying that because combat is so fast, small amounts of lag quickly becomes a problem? That makes sense. But I don't think that's *causing* the performance problems.

i think they do - whenever I am in a location with many players who use a lot of effects and AoE/DoT latency is spiking and the game starts to stutter and even gets me frozen for a moment where I can do nothing at all. And this is with not even a lot of people around, just a few fire up skills with lots of effects at the same time. I can just imagine how terrible this is in cyro then, where even more effects stack on each other because everyone is running their rotations - it is definitely the combat system which is creating the problems in the first place, because too many too expensive effects are stacked onto each other, and even worse if it happens in ball groups or wherever many players fight with each other. There is the reason and trying to fix that by soft- and hardware will just fight the symptoms but not the origin of all this mess.

I'm not a game engineer but I believe "stuttering" is more due to your own PC struggling with the graphics. I have that problem too at times, but it's not an issue with their servers and afaik it's not really related to the combat system perse. It's true that rendering spell effects can kill fps if your client is struggling. But the worst stutter/fps problems I get are in capital cities, where there's lots of players but very little combat going on besides one or two duels.

They released a patch recently that was supposed to make this better but for me at least made it worse. It'd be nice if the client were better optimized, but it's a problem that *can* be solved by getting a better PC and/or adjusting graphics settings.

The cyrodiil problems people are talking about are server problems and game bugs that are an issue no matter how awesome your gaming PC is.

Edit: You may have seen this already, but just in case this guide on performance settings by alcast helped me reduce my stutter problems.
https://alcasthq.com/eso-increase-performance-guide/

I have 45 fps in crowded place and between 70 and 90 outside of towns (with an old Nvidia 760 GTX) - it is not a graphical problem, when the stutter happens it is interrupting sound and movement and has an effect on firing up skills. And it just happens with a bunch of player around using a lot of effects and skills - the worst is summoning of apex mounts, which always freezes me for a moment. Something is just not right,i didn't have issue like this before the last updates.

Lysette

Nomad1098 wrote: »

So, the lag is teaching us that the combat is the issue and not the lag? Yeah, that seems right.

it certainly is - this game just can't handle many people in a small space fighting or using skills whilst just kidding around. so instead of trying to solve this technically, i would suggest to look at the cause of the problem not just fight the symptoms.

Most gaming companies are quite careful with implementing AoE and DoT wherever people tend to be in close quarters and overlap their effects - ZOS on the other side doesn't seem to have considered this and so the problem arose from overusing these bottleneck-inducing features. It is less a computation problem but a messaging problem which chokes the system and creates high latency.

ccfeeling

Buy more crowns

Kalante

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

What irks me the most about all this is that the combat is becoming so far off from the idea that it was suppose to be. All because of a exploit they did not know how to fix, and went from calling it a bug, to a feature. The people saying the combat has nothing to do with the lag is being silly, The servers use to be much better before people found out and now the exploit is require for end game content. It at last caught up, and damage has been done.


The combat design needs to go back to what it use to be. Choices, and more toggles to improve weaving, and skills being a action to take at a certain point in combat, not spammable. The only spammable action should be light and heavy attacks.


Go back to your first idea of what the combat should be. Don't let this exploit keep ruining servers, and keep ruining the end game.

The Servers also used to be better before serverside checks were implemented, guess which one had a bigger Impact on Server Performance?

It was not better, in fact i think it did improve it. But it was not enough. The servers went from an 8 to a 6 it is still not playable enough, and more needs to be done to stop this exploit, and to get the servers under control.

hur durh exploit, that's all you potatoes call animation canceling. If you don't want to animation cancel skills what are you doing here? go play final fantasy, bdo, poe or something. Im tired of zos making all of these combat changes to appease casuals and yet they still complain. I remember the days in 2016 when my skills and animation weaving used to respond perfectly but oh cue in the casuals that DON'T EVEN USE FOOD giving opinions of how the combat should be.

idk

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

What irks me the most about all this is that the combat is becoming so far off from the idea that it was suppose to be. All because of a exploit they did not know how to fix, and went from calling it a bug, to a feature. The people saying the combat has nothing to do with the lag is being silly, The servers use to be much better before people found out and now the exploit is require for end game content. It at last caught up, and damage has been done.


The combat design needs to go back to what it use to be. Choices, and more toggles to improve weaving, and skills being a action to take at a certain point in combat, not spammable. The only spammable action should be light and heavy attacks.


Go back to your first idea of what the combat should be. Don't let this exploit keep ruining servers, and keep ruining the end game.

The Servers also used to be better before serverside checks were implemented, guess which one had a bigger Impact on Server Performance?

This is very accurate. Having the servers check more vs the original trusted client added a lot of load to the servers.

Additionally, there have been many more changes Zos has added to the game that has added to the server load than just the server-side checks. CP, some new general buffs and debuffs, new sets that add unique effects have been added to the game that just compounds the problem of adding those checks to the server.

i found it odd OP disputed your claim here and suggests the server load was better after Zos abandoned the trusted client and moved these checks servers side. This makes it look like OP is just trying to justify complaining about being challenged weaving light attacks.

Lysette

Well, that they trusted the client in the first place was totally unprofessional - it is a basic rule of any client-server architecture to never trust the client - and to do that in a competitive environment is even worse. of course they had to put these checks server-side to avoid massive exploits which would ruin the game in many ways. On top of it a combat system, which creates a lot of bottlenecks especially with people in close quarters fighting each other and overusing these features on top of it.

Banana

It won't be fixed

idk

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

justaquickword wrote: »

What this lag should teach most of you is that making a new post about it on the forum every day won't make a blind bit of difference.

Or that it is a harder problem to fix. This new team i'm willing to give a chance too, the old leaders who rather call bug exploits that did not know how to fix, "features" i'm glad they are gone. These new people, I want to give a chance, and understand that a magic bullet won't fix all the problems.

OP, besides the false tales you are spinning here that Zos was not intelligent enough to "fix" AC and weaving basic attacks, I am pleased to inform you that the same people still run this show as have for the last 13 years. Matt Firor has been the top person all those years, and Rich Lambert has also been making the big decisions about the game all this time.

So besides the fact the same people still run the show as have been since early in this game development, the realized to remove AC required making combat in this game into slow and boring combat like WoW, FF14 and SWTOR have. They realized that players drawn to ESO have risen above such simplistic designs and are interested in the fast-paced, action-oriented combat we have here in ESO. Zos has even specifically stated they know this combat system is a big part of what sets ESO apart from other MMORPGs. Considering ESO's success, despite the lag, they clearly have the intelligence to know they have made a wise decision on the basic design of combat in ESO.

Nomad1098

Lysette wrote: »

Nomad1098 wrote: »

So, the lag is teaching us that the combat is the issue and not the lag? Yeah, that seems right.

it certainly is - this game just can't handle many people in a small space fighting or using skills whilst just kidding around. so instead of trying to solve this technically, i would suggest to look at the cause of the problem not just fight the symptoms.

Most gaming companies are quite careful with implementing AoE and DoT wherever people tend to be in close quarters and overlap their effects - ZOS on the other side doesn't seem to have considered this and so the problem arose from overusing these bottleneck-inducing features. It is less a computation problem but a messaging problem which chokes the system and creates high latency.

The game ran fine for years. The issue now isn't the combat, it's the servers. Yes, there are bottleneck features and mechanics, but those weren't a problem for years. OP wants to change weaving and canceling, that's ridiculous. Weaving is a standard mmo mechanic. Canceling is weaving sped up. Its really that easy. Of all the things that should be done right now, overhauling the core combat system is the absolute last thing they should be doing. Case in point, the last "performance" update changed a core mechanic and has left combat worse than ever.

Lysette

Nomad1098 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Nomad1098 wrote: »

So, the lag is teaching us that the combat is the issue and not the lag? Yeah, that seems right.

it certainly is - this game just can't handle many people in a small space fighting or using skills whilst just kidding around. so instead of trying to solve this technically, i would suggest to look at the cause of the problem not just fight the symptoms.

Most gaming companies are quite careful with implementing AoE and DoT wherever people tend to be in close quarters and overlap their effects - ZOS on the other side doesn't seem to have considered this and so the problem arose from overusing these bottleneck-inducing features. It is less a computation problem but a messaging problem which chokes the system and creates high latency.

The game ran fine for years. The issue now isn't the combat, it's the servers. Yes, there are bottleneck features and mechanics, but those weren't a problem for years. OP wants to change weaving and canceling, that's ridiculous. Weaving is a standard mmo mechanic. Canceling is weaving sped up. Its really that easy. Of all the things that should be done right now, overhauling the core combat system is the absolute last thing they should be doing. Case in point, the last "performance" update changed a core mechanic and has left combat worse than ever.

I'm ´not fond of these updates either - especially the blocking changes are really bad for people with high ping. these changes are made for people with about 200ms round trip time of the messages or less - not for those with 1 or 2 second round trip, for whom it is a disaster.

i guess that the combat system will never get an overhaul, by a couple of reasons - but a result of it will be, that performance enhancements will not last for long, because once it runs better, more people will play in close quarters and choke the system again. If the root cause is not fixed, any performance "fix" will just be temporary.

rager82b14_ESO

idk wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

justaquickword wrote: »

What this lag should teach most of you is that making a new post about it on the forum every day won't make a blind bit of difference.

Or that it is a harder problem to fix. This new team i'm willing to give a chance too, the old leaders who rather call bug exploits that did not know how to fix, "features" i'm glad they are gone. These new people, I want to give a chance, and understand that a magic bullet won't fix all the problems.

OP, besides the false tales you are spinning here that Zos was not intelligent enough to "fix" AC and weaving basic attacks, I am pleased to inform you that the same people still run this show as have for the last 13 years. Matt Firor has been the top person all those years, and Rich Lambert has also been making the big decisions about the game all this time.

So besides the fact the same people still run the show as have been since early in this game development, the realized to remove AC required making combat in this game into slow and boring combat like WoW, FF14 and SWTOR have. They realized that players drawn to ESO have risen above such simplistic designs and are interested in the fast-paced, action-oriented combat we have here in ESO. Zos has even specifically stated they know this combat system is a big part of what sets ESO apart from other MMORPGs. Considering ESO's success, despite the lag, they clearly have the intelligence to know they have made a wise decision on the basic design of combat in ESO.

It is not false. As you can tell from my name. I was around and a tester for the game. I've been around, I know more than most of the community when it comes to what designs, what has been said, and what they failed to fix. And turn around and lie to our faces saying it is a feature, when they tried to fix the same problem two patches ago.


Your logic is wrong, The combat was design for not having AC. They tried to fix it, and failed. Had to roll back the changes, and when they at last found out that they was not skilled enough to fix the problem, or it would take them too long. They started talking about it being a feature.

That is a simple fact, a history lesson for you. I'm calling a spade a spade when it comes to the developers. This combat design was not what was promise, and not what we testers signed up for, and tested for. They could not fix it, and so instead of players calling these people exploiting the system out and reporting them. The devs did the only logical thing they could have done, to prevent a civil war with each other. Called it a feature.

Now adding more skills, more things, and people exploiting more and more. The servers are crying, and it is the developers own fault for not getting this problem fixed when we asked them to do it.

Pinja

ccfeeling wrote: »

Buy more crowns

Like really why not gut the the whole combat system out, and turn the game into a child friendly vanity sims for RPrs... JK
Don't do that.
But really you change the combat system too much your giving people a different game, not the action packed MMO they've come to enjoy. And if people are going to be playing a different game they might not choose ESO.
The best games require the highest APM to stay entertaining. There's only so much thrill in pressing buttons. Part of it is the intensity, if you slow things down you undo it.

x48rph

Lysette wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

The light/heavy attack "weaving" sucks, and animation canceling is tedious..that all this combat lag has taught us is that we really need a reworked combat system.

That is what I'm saying since years and have posted a couple of times - the base reason for all the lag is the combat system and it's mechanics, which are prone to cause all kind of bottleneck issues leading to lag. Not going to happen though, because ZOS is proud of their twitchy combat system with much too many AoE and DoT effects.

It's just speculation of course but I really think the server just gets massively overloaded with calculations. Like if I understand it right, every tick of a DOT gets recalculated each time. It makes sense to recalculate defense, since someone could block and or whatever but the attacking stats and damage should be fixed to whatever it was when the attack was launch. But then you add in all the abilities with stacks to keep track of, all the checks for procs, and all the other crazy conditions attached to some of these sets and abilites that it has to factor in and it's a wonder the server just doesn't implode at times. I think this is why performance has gotten progressively worse over the years as they added more and more things the server is forced to keep track of and figure out. It's not the combat system per say that's the issue, it's all the stuff they've added.

rager82b14_ESO

Pinja wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Buy more crowns

Like really why not gut the the whole combat system out, and turn the game into a child friendly vanity sims for RPrs... JK
Don't do that.
But really you change the combat system too much your giving people a different game, not the action packed MMO they've come to enjoy. And if people are going to be playing a different game they might not choose ESO.
The best games require the highest APM to stay entertaining. There's only so much thrill in pressing buttons. Part of it is the intensity, if you slow things down you undo it.

This logic is also faulty to me. You do need a certain amount of APM, but this game is not a elder scrolls game anymore. When the buttons you press don't really add much and you just spam them out as fast as the GCD lets you. It requires no skill. In fact too much APM takes away skill. Good combat, requires choices to be made. Along with decent apm. Not just spam skills as fast as you can. Spam all your buffs up as fast as you can. It is sad, and people wanting a combat revamp wants a more skilled base combat not base off mindless speed of spamming skills on gcd.


I mean TONS of things that need to happen that im so amazed they have not done. Like healing stacking as well as dots., and lets not even talk about Mitigation. Like we just stack too much stuff and the servers cry out in pain.

It is not just AC that needs to be fixed, but healing needs a total revamp also. It does not matter how much APM you want if the game keeps playing like it is now.

The developers right now keep doing weird changes to dodges, and avoiding the main issues.

idk

Nomad1098 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Nomad1098 wrote: »

So, the lag is teaching us that the combat is the issue and not the lag? Yeah, that seems right.

it certainly is - this game just can't handle many people in a small space fighting or using skills whilst just kidding around. so instead of trying to solve this technically, i would suggest to look at the cause of the problem not just fight the symptoms.

Most gaming companies are quite careful with implementing AoE and DoT wherever people tend to be in close quarters and overlap their effects - ZOS on the other side doesn't seem to have considered this and so the problem arose from overusing these bottleneck-inducing features. It is less a computation problem but a messaging problem which chokes the system and creates high latency.

The game ran fine for years. The issue now isn't the combat, it's the servers. Yes, there are bottleneck features and mechanics, but those weren't a problem for years. OP wants to change weaving and canceling, that's ridiculous. Weaving is a standard mmo mechanic. Canceling is weaving sped up. Its really that easy. Of all the things that should be done right now, overhauling the core combat system is the absolute last thing they should be doing. Case in point, the last "performance" update changed a core mechanic and has left combat worse than ever.

True, combat, specifically AC and weaving basic attacks, are not the culprit with the declining server performance. The game, and especially Cyrodiil, use to run much smoother than today and we have AC and weaving of basic attacks all along.

That is a fact.

However, I dispute that OP wants to change weaving and AC. They want it removed as they are just plain complaining about it and trying to blame it on our lag. Look at the history of threads they have created. They have complained about it before and several other core aspects of the game. They started complaining about the game, and developers, since before the game launched.

rager82b14_ESO

idk wrote: »

Nomad1098 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Nomad1098 wrote: »

So, the lag is teaching us that the combat is the issue and not the lag? Yeah, that seems right.

it certainly is - this game just can't handle many people in a small space fighting or using skills whilst just kidding around. so instead of trying to solve this technically, i would suggest to look at the cause of the problem not just fight the symptoms.

Most gaming companies are quite careful with implementing AoE and DoT wherever people tend to be in close quarters and overlap their effects - ZOS on the other side doesn't seem to have considered this and so the problem arose from overusing these bottleneck-inducing features. It is less a computation problem but a messaging problem which chokes the system and creates high latency.

The game ran fine for years. The issue now isn't the combat, it's the servers. Yes, there are bottleneck features and mechanics, but those weren't a problem for years. OP wants to change weaving and canceling, that's ridiculous. Weaving is a standard mmo mechanic. Canceling is weaving sped up. Its really that easy. Of all the things that should be done right now, overhauling the core combat system is the absolute last thing they should be doing. Case in point, the last "performance" update changed a core mechanic and has left combat worse than ever.

True, combat, specifically AC and weaving basic attacks, are not the culprit with the declining server performance. The game, and especially Cyrodiil, use to run much smoother than today and we have AC and weaving of basic attacks all along.

That is a fact.

However, I dispute that OP wants to change weaving and AC. They want it removed as they are just plain complaining about it and trying to blame it on our lag. Look at the history of threads they have created. They have complained about it before and several other core aspects of the game. They started complaining about the game, and developers, since before the game launched.

indeed look at the history of my post. It shows that I know what I am talking about, and called this problem out for years and years. Just like I said at the start.

AC is just one of many problems this game has. Heal stacking is another one. The point is the combat needs a revamp, The servers won't be fixed until it happens.

and I don't mean the silly dodge rolls changes.

Pinja

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Pinja wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Buy more crowns

Like really why not gut the the whole combat system out, and turn the game into a child friendly vanity sims for RPrs... JK
Don't do that.
But really you change the combat system too much your giving people a different game, not the action packed MMO they've come to enjoy. And if people are going to be playing a different game they might not choose ESO.
The best games require the highest APM to stay entertaining. There's only so much thrill in pressing buttons. Part of it is the intensity, if you slow things down you undo it.

This logic is also faulty to me. You do need a certain amount of APM, but this game is not a elder scrolls game anymore. When the buttons you press don't really add much and you just spam them out as fast as the GCD lets you. It requires no skill. In fact too much APM takes away skill. Good combat, requires choices to be made. Along with decent apm. Not just spam skills as fast as you can. Spam all your buffs up as fast as you can. It is sad, and people wanting a combat revamp wants a more skilled base combat not base off mindless speed of spamming skills on gcd.


I mean TONS of things that need to happen that im so amazed they have not done. Like healing stacking as well as dots., and lets not even talk about Mitigation. Like we just stack too much stuff and the servers cry out in pain.

It is not just AC that needs to be fixed, but healing needs a total revamp also. It does not matter how much APM you want if the game keeps playing like it is now.

The developers right now keep doing weird changes to dodges, and avoiding the main issues.

It's not a problem with the game now, it is the game now. YOU just have to accept that. It is a matter, however, of getting the game to work with all of its features. AC is something players are accustomed to, developed around, and expect.

And this game is FAR FROM elder scrolls. AKA, a game where you could freeze combat in the menus and spam pots, or stack chameleon on all your armor to stay 100% invisible at all times...

But it's the game I was sold, from your beta to now, that I and many others have come to enjoy. Released as it was released.
The question is will people continue to buy content as released with all the errors, nuisances, and capacity problems. Especially if they were to add radical fixes like your own..

Resource management is the balance to APM which requires skill to maintain and out do your opponent. Most notable in PvP, which makes for the best games, where quick reaction and High APM makes the game. Heck even in turn based card games decks try to string together as many moves in one turn. Sticking to one power card is causally detrimental, though developers balance for it.

ESO developers have balanced for it as well giving normal mode to casuals, veteran for intermediate, and hard mode for end-game.

idk

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

justaquickword wrote: »

What this lag should teach most of you is that making a new post about it on the forum every day won't make a blind bit of difference.

Or that it is a harder problem to fix. This new team i'm willing to give a chance too, the old leaders who rather call bug exploits that did not know how to fix, "features" i'm glad they are gone. These new people, I want to give a chance, and understand that a magic bullet won't fix all the problems.

OP, besides the false tales you are spinning here that Zos was not intelligent enough to "fix" AC and weaving basic attacks, I am pleased to inform you that the same people still run this show as have for the last 13 years. Matt Firor has been the top person all those years, and Rich Lambert has also been making the big decisions about the game all this time.

So besides the fact the same people still run the show as have been since early in this game development, the realized to remove AC required making combat in this game into slow and boring combat like WoW, FF14 and SWTOR have. They realized that players drawn to ESO have risen above such simplistic designs and are interested in the fast-paced, action-oriented combat we have here in ESO. Zos has even specifically stated they know this combat system is a big part of what sets ESO apart from other MMORPGs. Considering ESO's success, despite the lag, they clearly have the intelligence to know they have made a wise decision on the basic design of combat in ESO.

It is not false. As you can tell from my name. I was around and a tester for the game. I've been around, I know more than most of the community when it comes to what designs, what has been said, and what they failed to fix. And turn around and lie to our faces saying it is a feature, when they tried to fix the same problem two patches ago.


Your logic is wrong, The combat was design for not having AC. They tried to fix it, and failed. Had to roll back the changes, and when they at last found out that they was not skilled enough to fix the problem, or it would take them too long. They started talking about it being a feature.

That is a simple fact, a history lesson for you. I'm calling a spade a spade when it comes to the developers. This combat design was not what was promise, and not what we testers signed up for, and tested for. They could not fix it, and so instead of players calling these people exploiting the system out and reporting them. The devs did the only logical thing they could have done, to prevent a civil war with each other. Called it a feature.

Now adding more skills, more things, and people exploiting more and more. The servers are crying, and it is the developers own fault for not getting this problem fixed when we asked them to do it.

If it is not false then back it up with actual facts. Prove that Zos decided to leave AC in the game because they did not know how to fix it. My logic is sound and at least I have logic. You are just complaining about something and trying to blame it for other

What is funny is you claim my logic is wrong, yet you demonstrated a lack of knowledge of the history of this game since launch in your reply to @Sanguinor2 because they were spot on, accurate, with their facts that moving from a trusted client to having the servers make more checks increased the lag. It was a significant turning point.

I guess that was during your extended absence from the game.

The game, especially Cyrodiil, performed much better, though never perfect before then, and oddly enough AC and weaving of basic attacks were part of the game there. Kind of inconvenient for you that they brought that fact into the thread.

In the end, and after looking at your history of complaining about this game, and the devs, I think a different game is more to your liking. I would suggest staying away from games with highly active combat as they tend to have AC. Maybe WoW or FF14. Just a thought since the recent mid-cycle PTS test Zos did seemed to indicate Zos has every intention to keep weaving in the game. Another fact that is based on Zos' actual actions and comments.

idk

Nomad1098 wrote: »

So, the lag is teaching us that the combat is the issue and not the lag? Yeah, that seems right.

LOL.

rager82b14_ESO

idk wrote: »

If it is not false then back it up with actual facts. Prove that Zos decided to leave AC in the game because they did not know how to fix it. My logic is sound and at least I have logic. You are just complaining about something and trying to blame it for other

What is funny is you claim my logic is wrong, yet you demonstrated a lack of knowledge of the history of this game since launch in your reply to @Sanguinor2 because they were spot on, accurate, with their facts that moving from a trusted client to having the servers make more checks increased the lag. It was a significant turning point.

I guess that was during your extended absence from the game.

The game, especially Cyrodiil, performed much better, though never perfect before then, and oddly enough AC and weaving of basic attacks were part of the game there. Kind of inconvenient for you that they brought that fact into the thread.

In the end, and after looking at your history of complaining about this game, and the devs, I think a different game is more to your liking. I would suggest staying away from games with highly active combat as they tend to have AC. Maybe WoW or FF14. Just a thought since the recent mid-cycle PTS test Zos did seemed to indicate Zos has every intention to keep weaving in the game. Another fact that is based on Zos' actual actions and comments.

It is like talking to a wall. Ok, want me to prove it? Go look at the patch history. What they tried to change. Was you around for the beta? If you was, do you recall the forum war that went on how people would report each other for using AC as a exploit? And for the longest time, the developers did not say anything about it, but they tried some changes to the combat that was aim to fix it, but did not do it? and they rolled it back? Oh ya? You recall that right?

But here let me help you out. At no point did developers came out and call it a exploit. We the community did for the longest time because it was, it was a unintended element to the combat, that was not part of the vision for a good part of the games life, that was FORCED to be balanced around.

So use some common sense here. What did you want the developers to say? We failed to fix it, and don't got to to change core issues of the game, so we just accept it as a feature now. That would have been more honest, but they just came out and said oh ya well it is a feature. So use it! Spitting in the fact of us testers, who reported this bug, and going back on the changes that was intended to fix it.

I came back because I have some hope for this new team, and the leaders who use to run the show left. The guy who came out and said it was a feature is gone, and i got high hopes for the new leaders to give us the game, that us testers wanted.


AC from a rpg stand point alone is silly.

idk

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Nomad1098 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Nomad1098 wrote: »

So, the lag is teaching us that the combat is the issue and not the lag? Yeah, that seems right.

it certainly is - this game just can't handle many people in a small space fighting or using skills whilst just kidding around. so instead of trying to solve this technically, i would suggest to look at the cause of the problem not just fight the symptoms.

Most gaming companies are quite careful with implementing AoE and DoT wherever people tend to be in close quarters and overlap their effects - ZOS on the other side doesn't seem to have considered this and so the problem arose from overusing these bottleneck-inducing features. It is less a computation problem but a messaging problem which chokes the system and creates high latency.

The game ran fine for years. The issue now isn't the combat, it's the servers. Yes, there are bottleneck features and mechanics, but those weren't a problem for years. OP wants to change weaving and canceling, that's ridiculous. Weaving is a standard mmo mechanic. Canceling is weaving sped up. Its really that easy. Of all the things that should be done right now, overhauling the core combat system is the absolute last thing they should be doing. Case in point, the last "performance" update changed a core mechanic and has left combat worse than ever.

True, combat, specifically AC and weaving basic attacks, are not the culprit with the declining server performance. The game, and especially Cyrodiil, use to run much smoother than today and we have AC and weaving of basic attacks all along.

That is a fact.

However, I dispute that OP wants to change weaving and AC. They want it removed as they are just plain complaining about it and trying to blame it on our lag. Look at the history of threads they have created. They have complained about it before and several other core aspects of the game. They started complaining about the game, and developers, since before the game launched.

indeed look at the history of my post. It shows that I know what I am talking about, and called this problem out for years and years. Just like I said at the start.

AC is just one of many problems this game has. Heal stacking is another one. The point is the combat needs a revamp, The servers won't be fixed until it happens.

and I don't mean the silly dodge rolls changes.

LOL. Being ESO is one of the top MMORPGs of today's time and has been successful in maintaining and growing its player base, shows Zos is doing something right with creating content and a combat system that interest players. The fact Zos has had to increase capacity on both EU and NA PC servers last year due to an increase in total players says much that they are doing something right.

The fact that ESO has been selling as many copies as FF14 at this stage in its life cycle demonstrates that Zos is doing something right. FF14 is one of the oldest and largest gaming IPs. Much older than TES and WoW IPs.

In the end, there are different types of games and different types of MMORPGs because everyone has different interests. Clearly this game is not for everyone and people should not expect it to be.