So what this lag is teaching us is.

rager82b14_ESO

The light/heavy attack "weaving" sucks, and animation canceling is tedious..that all this combat lag has taught us is that we really need a reworked combat system.

mairwen85

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

The light/heavy attack "weaving" sucks, and animation canceling is tedious..that all this combat lag has taught us is that we really need a reworked combat system.

Currently with this lag, everything is tedious.

Mounting your horse, tedious.
Using a vendor, tedious.
Fast travelling, tedious.
Opening a menu, tedious.

By all means, remove weaving (light attacks) and animation cancelling (barswaps/blocking/dodge roll), but then also why not decrease cast times, make all abilities fire as a single predefined one-click rotation and fix damage at the same value for everyone, and auto-mitigate incoming damage and self healing so we can all be heroes without any effort or skill required.

Lysette

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

The light/heavy attack "weaving" sucks, and animation canceling is tedious..that all this combat lag has taught us is that we really need a reworked combat system.

That is what I'm saying since years and have posted a couple of times - the base reason for all the lag is the combat system and it's mechanics, which are prone to cause all kind of bottleneck issues leading to lag. Not going to happen though, because ZOS is proud of their twitchy combat system with much too many AoE and DoT effects.

rager82b14_ESO

Lysette wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

The light/heavy attack "weaving" sucks, and animation canceling is tedious..that all this combat lag has taught us is that we really need a reworked combat system.

That is what I'm saying since years and have posted a couple of times - the base reason for all the lag is the combat system and it's mechanics, which are prone to cause all kind of bottleneck issues leading to lag. Not going to happen though, because ZOS is proud of their twitchy combat system with much too many AoE and DoT effects.

Yup, and it is the weakest part of this game.. I've also been saying for years as well. The old plan they had with the combat, was much better, that vision died..and now it has caught up to them. It is kinda karma right now, but too bad we all are paying the price.

FakeFox

By your'e argumentation the lag must have also taught us that AOE mechanics, gap closers, add spawns, synergies and every other somewhat complex mechanic sucks as well. Cause guess what, when it does not properly work, it sucks. However, that does not make any of those mechanics the issue, but the the common factor, which is bad performance.

Sanctum74

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

The light/heavy attack "weaving" sucks, and animation canceling is tedious..that all this combat lag has taught us is that we really need a reworked combat system.

Then don’t do it. You have a choice so stop trying to take away other people’s choices with no logic to back it up.

Golden_Cat

Games don't make people violent, lag does.

TequilaFire

What it has taught us is that most don't know what they are talking about but are going to talk about it anyway.

Princess_Ciri

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

The light/heavy attack "weaving" sucks, and animation canceling is tedious..that all this combat lag has taught us is that we really need a reworked combat system.

ESO's combat system (when it doesn't lag) is the best of any MMO out there. If you don't like, it go play something else instead of trying to make ESO into another boring tab target dull [snip] MMO.

[Edit for censor bypass.]

relentless_turnip

I liked the bit where you took an issue that is effecting every area of the game and made it a reason to make a "stop animation cancelling" post.

I've see these posts crop up probably every 2 hours somewhere on the forums😂 need I remind you the issues we are currently having only started with u25... Nothing about how this game is played has changed. The client was changed and how the core combat functions was also altered. Speculatively to appease the silly amount of these posts that occur.

So does animation cancelling break the game or was it the requests to have it removed that broke the game?

NocturnalSonata

One thing i have learned in pvp, is that while everyone is affected by lag, some builds perform miles better than others. Any build that requires mobility and fast reflexes is cannon fodder. If you cannot take sustained dmg, while not being able to even heal or shield, or barswap, then you most likely die to the person who can sustain dmg through the lag.

sad truth is, currently cyro is a skill-less battlefield. Just build for sustain and hope you out lag your opponant.. gg.

MartiniDaniels

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I liked the bit where you took an issue that is effecting every area of the game and made it a reason to make a "stop animation cancelling" post.

I've see these posts crop up probably every 2 hours somewhere on the forums😂 need I remind you the issues we are currently having only started with u25... Nothing about how this game is played has changed. The client was changed and how the core combat functions was also altered. Speculatively to appease the silly amount of these posts that occur.

So does animation cancelling break the game or was it the requests to have it removed that broke the game?

True. With every patch something related to animation cancelling and other game mechanics is removed, and with every patch performance become worse. Something tells me AC has nothing to do with lag.

Nerftheforums

Performance has improved so much after the added cast times and remove block cancelling 200IQ logic here

worrallj

Lysette wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

The light/heavy attack "weaving" sucks, and animation canceling is tedious..that all this combat lag has taught us is that we really need a reworked combat system.

That is what I'm saying since years and have posted a couple of times - the base reason for all the lag is the combat system and it's mechanics, which are prone to cause all kind of bottleneck issues leading to lag. Not going to happen though, because ZOS is proud of their twitchy combat system with much too many AoE and DoT effects.

Wait what? How is "the combat system" causing lag?

Are you saying that because combat is so fast, small amounts of lag quickly becomes a problem? That makes sense. But I don't think that's *causing* the performance problems.

robertthebard

Just curious here, and in no way am I trying to say it's the cause, but for those of you that really are lagging this badly, how many addons are you using?

I ask because I only have two, one for skyshards and one for lore books, and I'm not having any where near the issues that I've seen described since I've been back.

Lysette

worrallj wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

The light/heavy attack "weaving" sucks, and animation canceling is tedious..that all this combat lag has taught us is that we really need a reworked combat system.

That is what I'm saying since years and have posted a couple of times - the base reason for all the lag is the combat system and it's mechanics, which are prone to cause all kind of bottleneck issues leading to lag. Not going to happen though, because ZOS is proud of their twitchy combat system with much too many AoE and DoT effects.

Wait what? How is "the combat system" causing lag?

Are you saying that because combat is so fast, small amounts of lag quickly becomes a problem? That makes sense. But I don't think that's *causing* the performance problems.

i think they do - whenever I am in a location with many players who use a lot of effects and AoE/DoT latency is spiking and the game starts to stutter and even gets me frozen for a moment where I can do nothing at all. And this is with not even a lot of people around, just a few fire up skills with lots of effects at the same time. I can just imagine how terrible this is in cyro then, where even more effects stack on each other because everyone is running their rotations - it is definitely the combat system which is creating the problems in the first place, because too many too expensive effects are stacked onto each other, and even worse if it happens in ball groups or wherever many players fight with each other. There is the reason and trying to fix that by soft- and hardware will just fight the symptoms but not the origin of all this mess.

Lysette

robertthebard wrote: »

Just curious here, and in no way am I trying to say it's the cause, but for those of you that really are lagging this badly, how many addons are you using?

I ask because I only have two, one for skyshards and one for lore books, and I'm not having any where near the issues that I've seen described since I've been back.

I have none at all.

AMeanOne

robertthebard wrote: »

Just curious here, and in no way am I trying to say it's the cause, but for those of you that really are lagging this badly, how many addons are you using?

I ask because I only have two, one for skyshards and one for lore books, and I'm not having any where near the issues that I've seen described since I've been back.

Every console user has 0 addons, and we've had this input delay since February 5th.

worrallj

Lysette wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

The light/heavy attack "weaving" sucks, and animation canceling is tedious..that all this combat lag has taught us is that we really need a reworked combat system.

That is what I'm saying since years and have posted a couple of times - the base reason for all the lag is the combat system and it's mechanics, which are prone to cause all kind of bottleneck issues leading to lag. Not going to happen though, because ZOS is proud of their twitchy combat system with much too many AoE and DoT effects.

Wait what? How is "the combat system" causing lag?

Are you saying that because combat is so fast, small amounts of lag quickly becomes a problem? That makes sense. But I don't think that's *causing* the performance problems.

i think they do - whenever I am in a location with many players who use a lot of effects and AoE/DoT latency is spiking and the game starts to stutter and even gets me frozen for a moment where I can do nothing at all. And this is with not even a lot of people around, just a few fire up skills with lots of effects at the same time. I can just imagine how terrible this is in cyro then, where even more effects stack on each other because everyone is running their rotations - it is definitely the combat system which is creating the problems in the first place, because too many too expensive effects are stacked onto each other, and even worse if it happens in ball groups or wherever many players fight with each other. There is the reason and trying to fix that by soft- and hardware will just fight the symptoms but not the origin of all this mess.

I'm not a game engineer but I believe "stuttering" is more due to your own PC struggling with the graphics. I have that problem too at times, but it's not an issue with their servers and afaik it's not really related to the combat system perse. It's true that rendering spell effects can kill fps if your client is struggling. But the worst stutter/fps problems I get are in capital cities, where there's lots of players but very little combat going on besides one or two duels.

They released a patch recently that was supposed to make this better but for me at least made it worse. It'd be nice if the client were better optimized, but it's a problem that *can* be solved by getting a better PC and/or adjusting graphics settings.

The cyrodiil problems people are talking about are server problems and game bugs that are an issue no matter how awesome your gaming PC is.

Edit: You may have seen this already, but just in case this guide on performance settings by alcast helped me reduce my stutter problems.
https://alcasthq.com/eso-increase-performance-guide/

rager82b14_ESO

What irks me the most about all this is that the combat is becoming so far off from the idea that it was suppose to be. All because of a exploit they did not know how to fix, and went from calling it a bug, to a feature. The people saying the combat has nothing to do with the lag is being silly, The servers use to be much better before people found out and now the exploit is require for end game content. It at last caught up, and damage has been done.


The combat design needs to go back to what it use to be. Choices, and more toggles to improve weaving, and skills being a action to take at a certain point in combat, not spammable. The only spammable action should be light and heavy attacks.


Go back to your first idea of what the combat should be. Don't let this exploit keep ruining servers, and keep ruining the end game.

Sanguinor2

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

What irks me the most about all this is that the combat is becoming so far off from the idea that it was suppose to be. All because of a exploit they did not know how to fix, and went from calling it a bug, to a feature. The people saying the combat has nothing to do with the lag is being silly, The servers use to be much better before people found out and now the exploit is require for end game content. It at last caught up, and damage has been done.


The combat design needs to go back to what it use to be. Choices, and more toggles to improve weaving, and skills being a action to take at a certain point in combat, not spammable. The only spammable action should be light and heavy attacks.


Go back to your first idea of what the combat should be. Don't let this exploit keep ruining servers, and keep ruining the end game.

The Servers also used to be better before serverside checks were implemented, guess which one had a bigger Impact on Server Performance?

rager82b14_ESO

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

What irks me the most about all this is that the combat is becoming so far off from the idea that it was suppose to be. All because of a exploit they did not know how to fix, and went from calling it a bug, to a feature. The people saying the combat has nothing to do with the lag is being silly, The servers use to be much better before people found out and now the exploit is require for end game content. It at last caught up, and damage has been done.


The combat design needs to go back to what it use to be. Choices, and more toggles to improve weaving, and skills being a action to take at a certain point in combat, not spammable. The only spammable action should be light and heavy attacks.


Go back to your first idea of what the combat should be. Don't let this exploit keep ruining servers, and keep ruining the end game.

The Servers also used to be better before serverside checks were implemented, guess which one had a bigger Impact on Server Performance?

It was not better, in fact i think it did improve it. But it was not enough. The servers went from an 8 to a 6 it is still not playable enough, and more needs to be done to stop this exploit, and to get the servers under control.

shaielzafine

I dunno about just a combat system rework. They constantly do nonsense changes to combat and the performance has only gotten worse not better. Meanwhile mounts don't work properly - during primetime it's 10 seconds with whistle animation then running on top of mount or character dragging on the floor, cities don't render properly, we have loadscreens and lag even doing basic crafting writs, guild store and guild trader UI issues with long delays loading in, etc. The combat devs do need to do a better job but at the same time it won't matter while we have all these performance problems. Can't even log in properly multiple times this week. Lol

Danksta

No wonder ZoS is so willing to do bandaid fixes when you got people literally asking for them.. smh

worrallj

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

What irks me the most about all this is that the combat is becoming so far off from the idea that it was suppose to be. All because of a exploit they did not know how to fix, and went from calling it a bug, to a feature. The people saying the combat has nothing to do with the lag is being silly, The servers use to be much better before people found out and now the exploit is require for end game content. It at last caught up, and damage has been done.


The combat design needs to go back to what it use to be. Choices, and more toggles to improve weaving, and skills being a action to take at a certain point in combat, not spammable. The only spammable action should be light and heavy attacks.


Go back to your first idea of what the combat should be. Don't let this exploit keep ruining servers, and keep ruining the end game.

I dunno... I think the silly thing is blaming this on animation canceling, which has been part of the game from day 1 and bears no logical relation to server performance that I can see.

But it would be very easy to test- get two instances of a trial or something and in one everybody light attack weaves and in the other they don't. See if one performs noticeably better, and repeat a dozen times or so. I've personally never noticed light attack weaving changes my performance.

idk

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

The light/heavy attack "weaving" sucks, and animation canceling is tedious..that all this combat lag has taught us is that we really need a reworked combat system.

OP shows their hand in why this thread was created. Not due to lag but they are challenged with weaving attacks as they say weaving sucks.

Sanguinor2

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

It was not better, in fact i think it did improve it. But it was not enough. The servers went from an 8 to a 6 it is still not playable enough, and more needs to be done to stop this exploit, and to get the servers under control.

Im refering to the serverside checks that were made some time after launch because everyone could bot and cheat engine without any obstacles because every check went through clientside only...

Ghnami

We really just need to leave this dumpster fire exactly where it is and move on lol.

AMeanOne

Did I really just read the only spammable should be light/heavy attacks? Wow.

Auroan

Incorrect. What this lag teaches us is that either:

1.) ZOS has their priority set on Money.
2.) ZOS has their hands tied behind their backs by their Parent Company, Zenimax Media, whose primary focus is Money, and thus can't make the changes they want to make.
3.) ZOS has no idea what they're doing, how to actually fix the problems, or how to fix the problems without having to remake the game from scratch with a new Game Engine, and are stuck trying to fix a broken game with broken tools.

While there's a ton of different reasons why peoples performance can be bad, the main reason is this: look at SteamCharts.

Over the years, ESO has constantly grown. It gets large peaks from the announcements of major Chapters (such as Greymoor/Skyrim), then drops since the hype is over and some of the players didn't like the content, while others did. But the level of consistency is undeniable. ESO is constantly growing, and has more Current and Peak Players than the likes of even BDO and FF14, the main MMO competitors displayed on Steam.

In my opinion, the main issue is that ZOS currently has a game that's too large for them to handle with their current setup. Things ran smoother in the past because it had a smaller community, and the flawed technology and systems they had could easily be kept hidden because nothing ever demanded so much from it where it needed to show its true colors. Now that the community is too large, it requires more and more, and it simply can't properly support it.

Being that it's a popular franchise (Elder Scrolls), and being that is has more players than both BDO and FF14, one can assume that it generates more revenue than both of them, and thus, likely has a larger budget than both of them to sustain having the MMO Crown. That's the next issue.

Zenimax Media might not be giving ZOS a proper budget, and are being greedy. Or perhaps not greedy, but are needing to take a majority of that revenue to continue funding the massive Elder Scrolls 6 title. Instead of giving ZOS a larger budget to hire more employees to increase productivity and efficiency, they're giving them pennies on the dollar. Or perhaps Zenimax Media is allowing ZOS to work with a plentiful budget, but the heads in ZOS are incompetent and are not putting the budget where it needs its greatest focus; performance, not content.

I've preached it numerous times and I'll forever continue to do so until they fix their game (as it's currently in one of the worst states of performance since Launch), they've restricted themselves by trying to generate content each Quarter. When they first did a new DLC per Quarter, it was fine, because the community wasn't as large back then and thus the performance hit wouldn't be as noticeable. But because of the constant content they're pushing out, which draws in more players, they've reached a point (which is good to a degree), where they've now reached too many players to efficiently hold this strategy up. They're unable to accommodate this amount of players, and instead of refocusing their resources to where they need it most, they're just doing the same old thing they've been doing, which is focusing on pushing the content and generating that cash flow, instead of focusing on the performance of the game.

While making stupid decisions, like the APM garbage they gave us with LA's and HA's, will cause individuals to quit, and thus lower player count and revenue, so does having a horribly performing game. If people can't enjoy playing the content that's being pushed out because skills are delayed, or won't come out at all, block constantly drops randomly, lag, etc. than people will lose interest in it, and thus revenue is lost that way. There's a happy balance between focusing on performance and focusing on content. My bet is not even 10% of the ESO population that actually plays the content would be upset if ZOS came out with a major announcement and said, "to address the constantly feedback of our poor performance issues, we've decided we'll only release 2/3 DLC content a year instead of 4, and reserve 1/2 of those Quarterly updates to ensure performance and quality of life returns to its peak".

Why can't that be a thing?

Ghnami

AMeanOne wrote: »

Did I really just read the only spammable should be light/heavy attacks? Wow.

I had a similar idea about the game at launch. No global cooldowns, all buffs/debuffs/dots could be cast simultaneously, clearly at massive resource costs. Channeled skills and light/heavy attacks would then be the time-fillers, you could make a build with 6-7 dots/buffs and a couple passive skills and just use heavy attacks to sustain that with light attacks during full uptime/enough resources. You could make a build with 2-3 dots/buffs and a strong channeled ability with more focus on sustain. You could even make a full 10 dot/buff build that casts 5 abilities, heavy attacks for enough resources, casts 5 abilities, repeat. By making the global cooldown the lord and god of ESO creation, any semblance of effective choice is removed. I need to cast all these buffs/debuffs/dots that all take 1 second each to cast that are all worth it to cast because my regular passives and skills aren't strong enough, and then for the short time everything is up because everything takes so long to cast I get to do the exact same thing I was just doing to buff, click ability.