So what this lag is teaching us is.

worrallj

FENGRUSH wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

justaquickword wrote: »

What this lag should teach most of you is that making a new post about it on the forum every day won't make a blind bit of difference.

Or that it is a harder problem to fix. This new team i'm willing to give a chance too, the old leaders who rather call bug exploits that did not know how to fix, "features" i'm glad they are gone. These new people, I want to give a chance, and understand that a magic bullet won't fix all the problems.

OP, besides the false tales you are spinning here that Zos was not intelligent enough to "fix" AC and weaving basic attacks, I am pleased to inform you that the same people still run this show as have for the last 13 years. Matt Firor has been the top person all those years, and Rich Lambert has also been making the big decisions about the game all this time.

So besides the fact the same people still run the show as have been since early in this game development, the realized to remove AC required making combat in this game into slow and boring combat like WoW, FF14 and SWTOR have. They realized that players drawn to ESO have risen above such simplistic designs and are interested in the fast-paced, action-oriented combat we have here in ESO. Zos has even specifically stated they know this combat system is a big part of what sets ESO apart from other MMORPGs. Considering ESO's success, despite the lag, they clearly have the intelligence to know they have made a wise decision on the basic design of combat in ESO.

It is not false. As you can tell from my name. I was around and a tester for the game. I've been around, I know more than most of the community when it comes to what designs, what has been said, and what they failed to fix. And turn around and lie to our faces saying it is a feature, when they tried to fix the same problem two patches ago.


Your logic is wrong, The combat was design for not having AC. They tried to fix it, and failed. Had to roll back the changes, and when they at last found out that they was not skilled enough to fix the problem, or it would take them too long. They started talking about it being a feature.

That is a simple fact, a history lesson for you. I'm calling a spade a spade when it comes to the developers. This combat design was not what was promise, and not what we testers signed up for, and tested for. They could not fix it, and so instead of players calling these people exploiting the system out and reporting them. The devs did the only logical thing they could have done, to prevent a civil war with each other. Called it a feature.

Now adding more skills, more things, and people exploiting more and more. The servers are crying, and it is the developers own fault for not getting this problem fixed when we asked them to do it.

This is what you chose to see, not what happened. I was in beta as well. I was at the studio testing before the beta. I've been to the studio many times after. I've talked with the devs plenty. Let's be perfectly clear here. Animation canceling is not an exploit.

People trying to say it is an exploit and bringing discussion of people being cheaters are people you absolutely dont want to take serious in ESO. To think it's simple to rewrite the rythm of combat so easily and actually rework a forced cooldown to lock your character for the sake of removing it is actually a terrible idea at this point.

Most people are simply weaving. They light attack and then skill. This is 2 commands sent. I rarely cancel, as in block to cut the animation. The skill will cut the light animation. You know what stress that puts in the server? Nothing. The animations are client side. The server received 2 skills it executed fine.

The server issues are not tied at all to people weaving in combat. There are so many other factors of combat that can be addressed. Look at the amount of buffs being tracked along with heals stacked and suddenly you'll see a behemoth of an issue versus 'AC causing lag'. Are you kidding me?

You may have been around in beta, but that doesnt mean you know anything more than the next guy. You're creating a story to fit your narrative. Weaving isnt a performance issue. If you dont like the combat, that's a separate issue, just like performance is separate from this. Leave it alone. Theres other productive battles to fight.

Even the number of buffs tracked... I mean that's not really that much math for a computer. If everything was exactly the same except CP turned off and nobody applied any buffs, would you really expect a performance boost? I kinda doubt it but maybe I'm wrong.

vamp_emily

I played in low level ( under 50 ) campaign for years. We didn't experience lag that was seen often in CP campaigns. Some players stay in low level just for that reason; even though now the population has decreased substantially.

A little off topic.. A few years back ( where I work at ) we used a web based scheduling system that took forever load. If you wanted to look at todays schedule you were waiting for around 30 seconds for the page to populate. If you wanted to extend your search ( say 30 days ) you would be waiting for 5 minutes.

Long story short, employees were crying about how slow their computers were, and discussions were made about getting new servers. After my boss left the company, I decided to take a look at the SQL statement that was used to populate the schedule. I made a few changes to the SQL statement and everything loaded in less than 3 seconds. Even if you wanted to take a look at all jobs in 3 years.

My point is, it is not always the severs that are the problem. If you look at the time line of when things started really going bad it was within the last 2 updates. 1st update seemed to run smoother than normal but everyone got kicked off every 5 minutes, and the 2nd update fixed the getting kicked off the server every 5 minutes and then made PvP unbearable to play.

I say the current issue is the coders messed up, unless they added new servers at the time they did the updates.

Pinja

Lysette wrote: »

Nomad1098 wrote: »

So, the lag is teaching us that the combat is the issue and not the lag? Yeah, that seems right.

it certainly is - this game just can't handle many people in a small space fighting or using skills whilst just kidding around. so instead of trying to solve this technically, i would suggest to look at the cause of the problem not just fight the symptoms.

Most gaming companies are quite careful with implementing AoE and DoT wherever people tend to be in close quarters and overlap their effects - ZOS on the other side doesn't seem to have considered this and so the problem arose from overusing these bottleneck-inducing features. It is less a computation problem but a messaging problem which chokes the system and creates high latency.

Since OP has no clue what there talking about I'll talk @Lysette.

Before anyone buys into this myth. I want to say the close quarters stacking of abilities and effects is client lag. There is different types of lag at play in this game. Your earlier statement about a few individuals standing next to each other is the effect of 'shuttering' as some call it, as the client is cued to play graphics and animations.
The server from what I understand handles calculations for the whole instance, so it wouldn't matter if you were standing next to someone.
If the server is handling to many messages it's a mixture of client programing and server capabilities but that can be adjusted by spreading server load across more servers. The client programming has to do with the messaging rate that it transmits to the server. Does it transmit every input directly or does it have it's own timer that ques abilities to the server based on what was pressed at the time of cool down.
The latter infrastructure may very well be why we're seeing the new reverse desyncs, were abilities are a canceled due to these timers not lining up. Playing double jeopardy when it comes to registering abilities if one timer has a hiccup.

That theory aside I can dismiss message rate being a significant factor because:
A. it's still limited and controlled by GCD
B. Games like gears have button to button server client interaction. Where the hammerburst fires as quickly as you can press it. These games didn't have problems with server calculations, though they did lag over cable internet. Some games, like halo, showed your live ping rating in ingame leaderboards.
C. For the most part the same message rate has been there since the beginning of the game, to see good performance and to see performance decline.

Even DoT, HoT, and buff stacking while burdensome is not that detrimental if you correctly adjust capacity. It's why the Devs can't test lag.

However, it is impossible for us to simulate “real” server load internally, so we are going to include these fixes in Update 26 (they are not yet on the PTS but will be soon).

-Rich
No matter how many abilities they spam, messages they send, they can't get there test server to lag because of plain trial combat.
Because it's a capacity issue. When one server is given a kagillion instances to run it can't handle it...
IT's NOT THE COMBAT SYSTEM!

Lysette

.

Pinja wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Nomad1098 wrote: »

So, the lag is teaching us that the combat is the issue and not the lag? Yeah, that seems right.

it certainly is - this game just can't handle many people in a small space fighting or using skills whilst just kidding around. so instead of trying to solve this technically, i would suggest to look at the cause of the problem not just fight the symptoms.

Most gaming companies are quite careful with implementing AoE and DoT wherever people tend to be in close quarters and overlap their effects - ZOS on the other side doesn't seem to have considered this and so the problem arose from overusing these bottleneck-inducing features. It is less a computation problem but a messaging problem which chokes the system and creates high latency.

Since OP has no clue what there talking about I'll talk @Lysette.

Before anyone buys into this myth. I want to say the close quarters stacking of abilities and effects is client lag. There is different types of lag at play in this game. Your earlier statement about a few individuals standing next to each other is the effect of 'shuttering' as some call it, as the client is cued to play graphics and animations.
The server from what I understand handles calculations for the whole instance, so it wouldn't matter if you were standing next to someone.
If the server is handling to many messages it's a mixture of client programing and server capabilities but that can be adjusted by spreading server load across more servers. The client programming has to do with the messaging rate that it transmits to the server. Does it transmit every input directly or does it have it's own timer that ques abilities to the server based on what was pressed at the time of cool down.
The latter infrastructure may very well be why we're seeing the new reverse desyncs, were abilities are a canceled due to these timers not lining up. Playing double jeopardy when it comes to registering abilities if one timer has a hiccup.

That theory aside I can dismiss message rate being a significant factor because:
A. it's still limited and controlled by GCD
B. Games like gears have button to button server client interaction. Where the hammerburst fires as quickly as you can press it. These games didn't have problems with server calculations, though they did lag over cable internet. Some games, like halo, showed your live ping rating in ingame leaderboards.
C. For the most part the same message rate has been there since the beginning of the game, to see good performance and to see performance decline.

Even DoT, HoT, and buff stacking while burdensome is not that detrimental if you correctly adjust capacity. It's why the Devs can't test lag.

However, it is impossible for us to simulate “real” server load internally, so we are going to include these fixes in Update 26 (they are not yet on the PTS but will be soon).

-Rich
No matter how many abilities they spam, messages they send, they can't get there test server to lag because of plain trial combat.
Because it's a capacity issue. When one server is given a kagillion instances to run it can't handle it...
IT's NOT THE COMBAT SYSTEM!

And how do you explain failure of registering requests by the server and not starting skills, if there would be no server lag?- Why does the server miss so many requests, if it is all fine. Messaging is crap as it is, if it would work, abilities wouldn't fail that often - the server is simply overburdened with handling all the requests and that is why there is such high lag. These requests result from the combat system and it's design - it is definitely the combat system, which is choking the server.

And yes it is a capacity issue - but because ZOS is not investing into enough server capacity, what would have to be adjusted is the combat system - instead all what is done is trying to deal with the symptoms which will just have short term better performance, because once the performance is better, more players will jump in and choke the server again - and it will not feel any better than before. What basically means if they don't want to get to the root causes and fix it there, they can just not fix it at all- it wouldn't make a difference long term.

And then they cannot even reverse the loading screen time (zoning in) to 3 weeks ago, where it was fine. This should be quite easy to find and fix, because it is clear when this happened - the fix on monday 2.5 weeks ago caused it. But they are not willing or unable to fix such a tiny thing in 2.5 weeks - that is half a month for such a simple thing - and you think they will fix the lag within this year - no they won't.

Pinja

Lysette wrote: »

.

Pinja wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Nomad1098 wrote: »

So, the lag is teaching us that the combat is the issue and not the lag? Yeah, that seems right.

it certainly is - this game just can't handle many people in a small space fighting or using skills whilst just kidding around. so instead of trying to solve this technically, i would suggest to look at the cause of the problem not just fight the symptoms.

Most gaming companies are quite careful with implementing AoE and DoT wherever people tend to be in close quarters and overlap their effects - ZOS on the other side doesn't seem to have considered this and so the problem arose from overusing these bottleneck-inducing features. It is less a computation problem but a messaging problem which chokes the system and creates high latency.

Since OP has no clue what there talking about I'll talk @Lysette.

Before anyone buys into this myth. I want to say the close quarters stacking of abilities and effects is client lag. There is different types of lag at play in this game. Your earlier statement about a few individuals standing next to each other is the effect of 'shuttering' as some call it, as the client is cued to play graphics and animations.
The server from what I understand handles calculations for the whole instance, so it wouldn't matter if you were standing next to someone.
If the server is handling to many messages it's a mixture of client programing and server capabilities but that can be adjusted by spreading server load across more servers. The client programming has to do with the messaging rate that it transmits to the server. Does it transmit every input directly or does it have it's own timer that ques abilities to the server based on what was pressed at the time of cool down.
The latter infrastructure may very well be why we're seeing the new reverse desyncs, were abilities are a canceled due to these timers not lining up. Playing double jeopardy when it comes to registering abilities if one timer has a hiccup.

That theory aside I can dismiss message rate being a significant factor because:
A. it's still limited and controlled by GCD
B. Games like gears have button to button server client interaction. Where the hammerburst fires as quickly as you can press it. These games didn't have problems with server calculations, though they did lag over cable internet. Some games, like halo, showed your live ping rating in ingame leaderboards.
C. For the most part the same message rate has been there since the beginning of the game, to see good performance and to see performance decline.

Even DoT, HoT, and buff stacking while burdensome is not that detrimental if you correctly adjust capacity. It's why the Devs can't test lag.

However, it is impossible for us to simulate “real” server load internally, so we are going to include these fixes in Update 26 (they are not yet on the PTS but will be soon).

-Rich
No matter how many abilities they spam, messages they send, they can't get there test server to lag because of plain trial combat.
Because it's a capacity issue. When one server is given a kagillion instances to run it can't handle it...
IT's NOT THE COMBAT SYSTEM!

And how do you explain failure of registering requests by the server and not starting skills, if there would be no server lag?- Why does the server miss so many requests, if it is all fine. Messaging is crap as it is, if it would work, abilities wouldn't fail that often - the server is simply overburdened with handling all the requests and that is why there is such high lag. These requests result from the combat system and it's design - it is definitely the combat system, which is choking the server.

That's the reverse desync I was talking about.
It's not combat it's the code. Where messaging is affected by how the server accepts it. The problem being seen is the server isn't as receptive as it should be. I call it a reverse desync because I therize the problem arises from their work trying to fix desyncs. Where the server rejects abilities an opponents client can't register or is off timer say an ability was hung up. Only caching one ability at time, instead of say multiple focus aims, canceling all other abilities giving off the current unresponsive effect as you wait for an ability to clear the cache.
To show you further it's not necessarily overburdened check out this video. The player is in a condition where there is a low server population (I:E less strain,) and low client render population (I:E less client strain) and still see lags in server calculations.
https://youtu.be/_aXxvNHRNjU?t=251
To mention spreading out the server load across more servers is plainly better than overhauling combat. Because you don't ruin the game and risk doing so for little to no performance effects at all.

*Edited to correct video

Lysette

Pinja wrote: »

To mention spreading out the server load across more servers is plainly better than overhauling combat. Because you don't ruin the game and risk doing so for little to no performance effects at all.

It would be, if the servers would be run efficiently - but I doubt that ZOS will provide the server capacity required to make it happen. Just like i think they won't touch the combat system to the extend required - result of it: performance won't get better, because fixing the symptoms will just lead to a temporary effect which will be drowned by more players jumping in.

So it is hopeless as far as Cyro performance goes, because ZOS are like they are - but what could be done is fixing the loading screen times and make it work again for most of the player base not caring for Cyro and group content at least.

Pinja

Lysette wrote: »

Pinja wrote: »

To mention spreading out the server load across more servers is plainly better than overhauling combat. Because you don't ruin the game and risk doing so for little to no performance effects at all.

It would be, if the servers would be run efficiently - but I doubt that ZOS will provide the server capacity required to make it happen. Just like i think they won't touch the combat system to the extend required - result of it: performance won't get better, because fixing the symptoms will just lead to a temporary effect which will be drowned by more players jumping in.

So it is hopeless as far as Cyro performance goes, because ZOS are like they are - but what could be done is fixing the loading screen times and make it work again for most of the player base not caring for Cyro and group content at least.

And thus we can at least reach one consensus of this thread. Zos needs to fix stuff.

Ignis_Irae

hahah. this LAG teach us if in Cyrodill pvp have lag 2 seconds even. so what combat syste changes make do. nothing. they can reduce lag for 2 seconds to?.. 1.8 second?. did u carefuly read Performance fixing Road MAp? heheh... eg... non-combat pet fix etc... ZOS are realy not understand what is the problem in game play. LAG. in combat. eg who care if u can barke the stun if it will cast after 3-4 seconds after u stun. u are dead after 4 seconds. so? horse simulator again? pvp in Cyrodil now does not exist. is is only ball group play cause if u have to do any tactic and startegy play in Castle siege it is usles. all u can do to count there will ne no one guarding . cause if pvp will start it is matter of who have lest lag or who have more luck to be outside of lag/stun sfere. it is funny even. i learned to play as an Ball morron with 1 key ckick. but is it OLD CYRODILL we remember? . i know Covid etc. but if i understund. in Cyrodil is POP lock so we have same situations before with all 3 factions full and lag as not so much so?... is cyrodili instance on same server as rest of game or they change server to cheaper machine. or what? thye should answer us what is the real problem but i suspect that GREAT REY Whatever THe DIrector is not even understand where the problem is so they start to fix non combat pets which we dont even use in Cyrodil ))) so? [snip] ZEnimax. it is not funny if we see u cant even where the problem with LAG is.

[edited for bashing]

rager82b14_ESO

Pinja wrote: »

Since OP has no clue what there talking about I'll talk @Lysette.
]

[snip]

The lag comes from two factors.

One, Stacking of buffs and debuffs. Like regens from healing.
Two, The combat animations should be a factor along side with GCD. With everyone spamming everything as fast as they can and gcd is the only factor it adds strain.

[snip]

Now, the combat needs to be changed, from a RPG stand point. canceling animations goes against the spirit of what a RPG is. Your spell action and what you need to do to pull of said spell should factor into when to cast said spell.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

Ri_Khan

The lag lesson learned here is to NEVER AGAIN bother play an online multiplayer that requires me to connect to a server that's located 1400 miles away. In fact, if a game has any kind of PvP or semi competitive element, there needs to be regional servers or i simply won't even consider it.

Also, until we all have quantum processors in our rigs and consoles, I will assume the use of any kind of "megaserver" for these games means that the hardware budget's being skimped out on.

ZOS_Lunar

Greetings everyone,

As this thread has run its course and is no longer constructive, we are now going to close it. We always encourage sharing opinions, but we ask that they are respectfully stated when doing so. Thank you for your understanding, and please keep the Community Rules in mind when posting on the forums.