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The vast difference in difficulty from norm to vet.
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Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭witchdoctor wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »The story team is completely out of touch with how players actually play and making mistakes other games have long since recognized and adjusted for.
In a choice between you and the story team, I am going to go with the story team as having actual, meaningful, quantifiable data on 'how [ESO] players actually play.'
Like this? https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/511037/why-nerf-iceheart
Or maybe the number of years that have passed since they tried to change how BGs work with respect to premades?
Or something as basic as https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/477434/still-no-jewelry-crafting-in-hollow-city-update-acknowledgement-from-zeni/ maybe?Edited by Dusk_Coven on March 12, 2020 8:23AM0 -
witchdoctor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »witchdoctor wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »The story team is completely out of touch with how players actually play and making mistakes other games have long since recognized and adjusted for.
In a choice between you and the story team, I am going to go with the story team as having actual, meaningful, quantifiable data on 'how [ESO] players actually play.'
Like this? https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/511037/why-nerf-iceheart
Or maybe the number of years that have passed since they tried to change how BGs work with respect to premades?
And that has any support for your position on a pressing need for a story mode for dungeons, how?3 -
Raisin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »What I don't understand about some people is, if you are playing an MMO and complain about having to trial and error, why do you even play a MMO? Isn't that what MMOs are all about?
A lot of people play it for the elder scrolls experience - the MMO part is for them just tolerated and basically ignored as good as it gets. A whole lot play it just like a single player game.
Some people like trials and progression and really hard challenges.
But that's a really tiny fraction of the game content. In pretty much every game it's really just something to keep people busy spinning their hamster wheel while they make the next BIS gear and up the level cap to keep people spinning the hamster wheel even more and pay their subs because they "need" to chase gear and "achievements". They adjust the trials to keep it hard -- to keep people chasing stuff so hopefully they keep paying to grind.
A lot of people are busy doing everything else. When the story dries up they stop.
That's why the big announcement each year is not "the next new trial" foremost. It's a whole year of STORY that's basically done SOLO. Except the nonsense of putting story in Dungeon DLCs so no one can properly experience them, thanks to stupid mechanics like the first person who moves close triggers a cutscene that everyone else misses. The story team is completely out of touch with how players actually play and making mistakes other games have long since recognized and adjusted for.
God forbid people play games to learn how to play them well and complete challenges and hard content. Almost like that's been a huge aspect of video games since the beginning of their existence and the point of a lot of them...
ZOS doesn't adjust trials or dungeons to 'keep them hard'. They nerf them continuously. That's pretty much the opposite.
And story belongs in all parts of the game. It's an MMO.
I didn't say it's not a valid type of playstyle. And I did point out it exists in many other games. I just point out the pattern I see in many games. Don't like that, too bad.
I also pointed out what proportion of games this type of content occupies, in support of what I quoted. If you want to pretend there's more than there is, you can leave your head stuck in the sand.
And I didn't specify how ZOS handles trials. Again it was a general observation. Read more carefully?
And I didn't say you said it's not a valid playstyle. Maybe read more carefully? Honestly just be less of a *** next time, it's not that hard. Everybody else was handling it fine. It's not our fault that you came into this aggro.
What you pointed out is your biased perception of a proportion without any proof or statistic behind it. I guess you can keep your head stuck in your butt as well if you wish.
You said "They [referencing earlier 'pretty much every game'] adjust the trials to keep it hard -- to keep people chasing stuff so hopefully they keep paying to grind." I pointed out that this is not true for ESO, the game we play. Also 'just an observation'. I honestly don't know how I could possibly explain how the logical progression of a conversation works. People respond to you in context with relevant points.Edited by Raisin on March 12, 2020 8:33AM2 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »SOLO. That way you are forced to experience ALL the mechanics
Heavens forbid that someone adds mechanics that require gasp! teamwork in a multiplayer game.
If you want your solo content, great, you have 99% of the game devoted to that style of play. Stop trying to colonize the parts of the game that is tailored for people who like crazy radical things like... teamwork and spending time with other players.
Selectively quoting and ignoring the rest just makes your point irrelevant and makes you look like a fraud.
SWTOR has SOLO STORY mode to teach people the basic mechanics before they go into 4-team Veteran and it works brilliantly. In Veteran you learn additional mechanics to prepare you for Master Mode. It's a good progression that not only teaches mechanics but shows you what all roles need to do.Dusk_Coven wrote: »Basic mode should be changed to SOLO. That way you are forced to experience ALL the mechanics and get an introduction to them all before you try the added complications from Veteran. No Undaunted Key, no Group Finder -- players can literally just wander into one like they do a Public Dungeon.
Veteran should be the new normal for 4-man and where you get your Undaunted Key and Helm.
Hard Mode is where you get 2 keys as normal.
@Dusk_Coven Yes, I did selectively quote. Why? Because I wanted to emphasize what your suggestion implies--even though you won't say it. Or, worse, you don't realize it.
So you want to have a solo mode that teaches "all" the mechanics? You realize what that means, right? That the mechanics must inherently be the kind that can be soloed. You can't design a mechanic that requires at least two people to perform if you then turn around and require that this mechanic can be taught solo.Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
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Extended Journal Add-Ons: Item Set Browser ― Loot Log ― Character Knowledge ― Collectibles Tracker ― RaidificatorPC/Console Add-Ons: Combat Alerts ― Group Buff PanelsOther Add-Ons: Deconstruction Junk Marker ― Purge Tracker ― Asylum Status Panel ― Smart Looter ― Improved Companion Rapport Information4 -
mague✭✭✭✭✭Thoughts?
The days are gone where combat was linear learning. Back then you could learn from any mob. A raid boss had the same mechanics as a simple group boss. Just scaled for more players. Back then you learned from level 1 on to deal with the level 50 endgame raid boss. You never had to learn a strategy, only your class from level 1 on. If you tanked from level 1 on you have been a tank, same for heals, support and dd.
Since they heavily script the encounters all the coherence is gone and all is wrong and upside down. There are plenty of dungeon bosses who have a 100% different pattern then any other mob in game.0 -
Artanisul✭✭✭✭I know it wasn't popular earlier in the thread but....
Animation Cancelling....
Can someone explain or point me to a resource where I can see the difference between LA weaving and AC?
I think I saw a decent discussion a while back but I cant recall where.
On my Sorc I can pound my light attack and one skill and burn an enemy down faster than normal, but it looks horrid on screen and feels like all but cheating the game. I know that is the base of LA weaving, because if I do that with the full rotation I have higher DPS....it looks like crap on screen because the animations are all "cancelled" half way through, but I know AC is a different animal.1 -
witchdoctor✭✭✭✭✭
✭LA weaving is a form of AC.
AC without weaving a LA is normally done prior to a bar swap.0 -
Raisin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I know it wasn't popular earlier in the thread but....
Animation Cancelling....
Can someone explain or point me to a resource where I can see the difference between LA weaving and AC?
I think I saw a decent discussion a while back but I cant recall where.
On my Sorc I can pound my light attack and one skill and burn an enemy down faster than normal, but it looks horrid on screen and feels like all but cheating the game. I know that is the base of LA weaving, because if I do that with the full rotation I have higher DPS....it looks like crap on screen because the animations are all "cancelled" half way through, but I know AC is a different animal.witchdoctor wrote: »LA weaving is a form of AC.
AC without weaving a LA is normally done prior to a bar swap.
LA weaving in itself isn't technically animation cancelling. But the rhythm you take while LA weaving will more or less automatically be fast and cancel something, so you would have to purposefully take it slower to avoid having an animation be cancelled. I'm not sure how slow you'd have to go though, and if LA weaving would then still be lucrative to use for DPS gain. So it's more that LA weaving is highly likely to cause AC.
That said, AC as a category contains all types of cancelling an animation. This would be block-cancelling, bash-cancelling and bar-swap cancelling. They are all... fairly self-explanatory. You just do one of those things (bash, bar-swap, short block) before an animation has been fully executed.2 -
sekou_trayvond✭✭✭✭✭Yep. Pretty much.
Normal dungeons basically "teach" the player, "here are enemies. They will be in rooms of varying size to oppose you." That's it.
And then vet dungeons and all the rigamarole involved (which I'm not against- can be quite fun) is starkly different than the normal presentation. It's a pet peeve for me as well because the tremendous spike in the learning curve makes many dungeons unpalatable to my normal dungeon group. A middle stage would be very helpful for those of us who want to conquer the content but find the current chasm tween normal and vet unbridgeable (is that a word? No? Well, I just made it one).
(Referring to dlc vet here, btw. My group can handle OG vet content fair enough)
Edited by sekou_trayvond on March 12, 2020 10:07AM0 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭kathandira wrote: »So the only way to learn mechs is through suffering and trial and error
What's so wrong with learning through trial and error?
Indeed. This is how many learn. But as well, the age of internet breeds those who would rather let someone else figure things out, then wait for a guide, rather than living the learning process themselves.
I don't object, if that is what they want to do - if they want to steal the learning experience away from themselves, by consulting guides/watching videos.
I do, however, object if they want to steal the learning experience away from everyone else, by expecting everyone else to consult guides/watch videos.0 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Completely agree, I honestly think that the main issue is that most mechanics in normal mode dont one-shot so everyone just ignores them and heals through it. In vet mode the incoming damage is higher, adds take longer to kill and the mechanics that were ignored suddenly one-shot. I can imagine that makes the step from normal to vet quite challenging for new players.
Unhallowed Grave is an exception in that regard, when fighting the second and forth boss you just need to do the mechanics to stay alive. Other normal dungeons should follow this example, you need learn the mechanics for normal and once you feel comfortable with them you can try vet mode.PC - EU (AD)Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer1 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ATreeGnome wrote: »Alright, I will be the one who throws the hand grenade.
The reason for the giant gap is animation canceling.
Normal is for the average player that can’t/won’t do AC and the vet content basically requires it.
And it’s horrible.
The current combat team is creating a two tier combat system and that is really disappointing. I remember back when the game began where the developers did not want to even allow dps meters and I wish they stuck to that commitment. The game would have been a lot more accessible. Now we have watered down abilities balanced around a mechanic that most modern combat video games would not touch with a ten foot pole.
People have cleared vMoL HM when 30k DPS was considered godlike. Before all of the nerfs to the trial itself too. And these days you can hit 30k with three DoTs and a spammable while watching and admiring every frame of your character's animations. AC has nothing to do with dungeon diffuclty.
Stop blaming all of your failures and incompetence on one basic gameplay mechanic which is present in one form or another in most online videogames.
VMoL was created well before the AC madness that we have today. Does VSunspire require AC? What about the VScalebreaker dungeons? VMazz? VCoS?
Look I don't care, if you want to bury your head and ask why you can't find groups that can clear this stuff when the answer is obvious, then go do what you do. But the amount of people doing these dungeons is small, and if you want to grow that amount of people doing them it starts at the combat system, pure and simple.
But hey if you are a dps and what to wait a while for a group that AT BEST has a 50/50 shot at actually completing the DLC vet dungeon than congrats, the system is working just fine.
AC was most definitely a thing when vMoL came out and well before too. The only content that could be legitimately argued to actually "require" animation canceling in any capacity are the highest DPS checks, which is pretty much just Navi hard mode. Everything else in the game can certainly be completed without it with reasonable DPS as long as the players can properly do mechanics . Which is the entire point of this discussion - that less experienced player often don't have opportunities to learn vet mechanics. Animation canceling has nothing to do with it.Always fun to read when people use animation canceling as a scapegoat. Animation canceling isn't going to boost your dps by 300%, it's just an excuse for refusing to actually learn rotations and setting up characters properly. Animation canceling only makes a small difference in the end, the issue most of the times is that people that complain about low dps don't have: 1. Good rotations (biggest factor), 2 bad gear, 3. Don't Light Attack between each skill 4. CP not set correctly/ low CP.
@alcast Are you referring to me? Do you think I am making excuses about not completing vet content? That's cute.
However I do know that 90% of the people on my friends list won't even attempt to do Vet content because they can't keep up with AC or light attack weaving.
Because the combat in this game is awful.On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings. However, that would actually require work on ZOS side and the question is, how big of an impact would it have in bringing in new players? Probably not a big one, so there aint $ to be made and therefore the incentive to make these changes isn't there.
/facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?
In the end all this will accomplish is taking resources away from the game to make content for an incredibly small minority of players.
If this game did not have the Elder Scrolls in the name, it would have died long ago. No one is picking up a game with a combat system this bad without the IP of Elder Scrolls on it. MMO just means "Massively Multi-player Online". Thats it.What I don't understand about some people is, if you are playing an MMO and complain about having to trial and error, why do you even play a MMO? Isn't that what MMOs are all about?
Technically "Raid: Shadow Legends" is an MMO.
http://www.mmommorpg.com/?utm_campaign=4&utm_source=bingads&msclkid=cd16754d23411b0a722d2b2703ba8a96
I also like how you forget to mention that this is an RPG. as in Role-playing game. I am not a RPGer, nor do I have any numbers, but I am guessing that the RPG part of ESO is more popular than the Vet part. Why? Because in general it is accessible, and their community actually is welcoming to new players. Unlike the high end vet community who rabidly defend a bad combat system by attacking anyone who criticizes it.
And yes RPG is a massively muti-player online activity, did that just blow your mind? Are you in a RPG guild? If not; "Isn't that what MMOs are all about?"
Edited by BlueRaven on March 12, 2020 12:01PM1 -
Raisin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭/facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?
In the end all this will accomplish is taking resources away from the game to make content for an incredibly small minority of players.On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings.
So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with? You literally bolded this part, but apparently failed to read it. How would making vet EASIER cause people who didn't run it before cause of the difficulty spike stay away from vet even more? You think maybe if vet was easier they would maybe... Find it more accessible? Just maybe?
The reason a nightmare more would help is because it would push vet into being a medium difficulty tier. ZOS would avoid having to fail at designing vet in a way that appeases two kinds of players requiring vastly different dungeon experiences. It would allow ZOS the freedom to give everybody what they want, go full out with nightmare difficulty while balancing vet to please the large midtier bracket of players (most of which are being punished for the point they are at because they have often outgrown normal.)
Or maybe you're right and making vet easier will drive away people who didn't run it cause it was too difficult. We just don't know, eh?
And if you care about your friends' gaming experience so much, maybe you should be honest with them and explain to them that LA weaving and AC are in no way required for those vet dungeons they fear. Why would you support their being misinformed rather than encourage them? Because it makes for a good argument?
Part of the reason people who don't care for the TES IP play this game is because of the combat system, whether you like that or not. It may suffer a lot of issues overall, but the fast pace is what appeals to a lot of people because of the contrast it has to other combat systems.
The 'high end vet community' being not welcoming is factually wrong. It's a silly, biased claim based on no facts. In the end, the proof is in the pudding: you attack people whose views on the combat system differ from yours with no shame, bit somehow in your mind manage to project your behavior onto others. And I don't even doubt that you've managed to delude yourself into not seeing that it's actually you doing it, and no one else.Edited by Raisin on March 12, 2020 1:10PM2 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alright, I will be the one who throws the hand grenade.
The reason for the giant gap is animation canceling.
Normal is for the average player that can’t/won’t do AC and the vet content basically requires it.
That's a very different stance from most people who defend AC. they say the difference in dps is not large. so which is it, is AC way OP and needs to be nerfed (in a way which does not change the feel of combat) or is it fine as is? it can't be both.
The current combat system is the limiting factor in dungeon, trial, and pvp participation. It’s not intuitive, it does not play like previous ES games, and it is straight up intimidating to new players.
And telling new players they need to refer to third party websites to be effective in combat should be a giant red flag that something is inherently wrong.
Combat needs to get back to its ES roots.1 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
The current combat system is the limiting factor in dungeon, trial, and pvp participation. It’s not intuitive, it does not play like previous ES games, and it is straight up intimidating to new players.
And telling new players they need to refer to third party websites to be effective in combat should be a giant red flag that something is inherently wrong.
Combat needs to get back to its ES roots.
We definitely dont Need Skyrim or Oblivion Combat in ESO thank you very much.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.3 -
thadjarvis✭✭✭✭The new DLC vet dungeons are noticeably less difficult back to maybe Dragon Bones. There's no DPS checks and the most groups I know went into them and figured out the mechanics without guides or add-ons. Dying is less of a risk too vs FL walls, SCP poison, etc.1
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Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agenericname wrote: »In SCP, and most other dungeons the mechanics are very similar if not exactly the same, just toned down a bit. You can learn most of the mechanics on normal, but in most cases groups will just heal through mistakes that would kill them in vet and continue to DPS.
I don't have anything against an additional tier of difficulty per se, but if it can be healed through without obeying the mechanics it will be.
Except they’re not.. nSCP, like many normal dungeons, entirely omits certain mechanics. So it’s not a case of the mechanics are there but the boss’s hit points are reduced, the mechanics aren’t there at all. You can play nSCP until you can do it blindfold, but that won’t prepare you for the poison in vSCP, or the added complexity introduced in the hard mode. Those will be entirely new to you and you’ll just have to learn how to deal with them effectively. And with vSCP, it’s not figuring out what the mechanic is that’s the issue, it’s actually dealing with a hugely fatal, randomly spawning mechanic that is both poorly indicated and allows almost no leeway to escape that is the frustrating thing.
Not sure what your healing argument is all about as, first, healing along with buffing and debuffing is a legitimate way of dealing with mechanics. It’s what healers do if they’re any good. And, second, the intermediate level of difficulty that would bridge the current chasm between normal and vet isn’t relevant for groups who can heal past vet mechanics - they’re already more than capable of dealing with vet dungeons as they are. It’s aimed at those players who are very competent at normal dungeons and want to make the step up to vet ones without feeling like they’re being repeatedly punched in the face by the school bully.
I was pleased to see normal Icereach seemed to be attempting to have mechanics that actually worked in a similar way as they did in the vet version. In particular the first giant boss. I hope this is something that continues.His hammer blow that shatters growing ice atronarchs is a feature of both the normal and vet versions and can also be used in the hard mode to damage his summoning witch
What mechanic is left out in normal scale caller peak? HM shouldn't even be in the discussion and very few people transition from normal to HM and those who do from vet to vet HM are aware of the jump in difficulty even of they're surprised by that particular dungeon.
I said nothing specifically about healers, healing through mechanics that would otherwise kill you is what I said. In the Zaan fight you do not necessarily need to move or even position yourself for the peryite breath, heal through it. Most groups fail that mechanic. It's there in normal, it just not a severe penality hence there's no real reason to move.
When all 3 breaths are cast at the same time there are 2 visible lines that separate them. Fighting on or near those lines to eliminate the distance one needs to travel to escape the next is a matter or maintaining a good position in the fight. It's simply not needed in normal, but the mechanic is there. You cannot heal past that mechanic on vet, you can on normal, assuming that the player has a food buff and a reasonable build.
It's not s very friendly mechanic, I'll give you that. Roll dodging is a primary form of avoiding those types of mechanics and it can be a hindrance in that fight, but the mechanic is there just the same.
The statues are still there as far as I remember and so is her beam. The only other mechanics that are dangerous is her fire breath and her heavy attack.
0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭/facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?
In the end all this will accomplish is taking resources away from the game to make content for an incredibly small minority of players.On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings.
So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with? You literally bolded this part, but apparently failed to read it. How would making vet EASIER cause people who didn't run it before cause of the difficulty spike stay away from vet even more? You think maybe if vet was easier they would maybe... Find it more accessible? Just maybe?
The reason a nightmare more would help is because it would push vet into being a medium difficulty tier. ZOS would avoid having to fail at designing vet in a way that appeases two kinds of players requiring vastly different dungeon experiences. It would allow ZOS the freedom to give everybody what they want, go full out with nightmare difficulty while balancing vet to please the large midtier bracket of players (most of which are being punished for the point they are at because they have often outgrown normal.)
Or maybe you're right and making vet easier will drive away people who didn't run it cause it was too difficult. We just don't know, eh?
And if you care about your friends' gaming experience so much, maybe you should be honest with them and explain to them that LA weaving and AC are in no way required for those vet dungeons they fear. Why would you support their being misinformed rather than encourage them? Because it makes for a good argument?
Part of the reason people who don't care for the TES IP play this game is because of the combat system, whether you like that or not. It may suffer a lot of issues overall, but the fast pace is what appeals to a lot of people because of the contrast it has to other combat systems.
The 'high end vet community' being not welcoming is factually wrong. It's a silly, biased claim based on no facts. In the end, the proof is in the pudding: you attack people whose views on the combat system differ from yours with no shame, bit somehow in your mind manage to project your behavior onto others. And I don't even doubt that you've managed to delude yourself into not seeing that it's actually you doing it, and no one else.
Ha!
Face it. Skyrim, Oblivion and the other ES games are way more popular then eso. When they announced ES 6 everyone went nuts. And the only reason Greymoor is of interest to anyone is because of ES 5.
Maybe the game should be more like them if they want to attract players.
••••
No one will do the vet mode even if it’s turned down. Nightmare and the rewards that drop there will be the new “vet” just with a new name.
The wait times on the vet dungeons will also get longer further making them less attractive.
You are not adding more players to this content. You are just dividing the small amount of players doing this content into more pools.
Except in this case, unless you make the rewards exactly the same as nightmare, no one will be doing vet. And if you do make the rewards the same, the amount of people doing nightmare will go down to a few bored high end players. It’s lose-lose and a development resource waste.
If you want a higher success rate in dungeons, the combat system needs to be improved. Pure and simple.
Your trying to blame the road, when it’s the car we are driving is the problem.0 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭/facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?
In the end all this will accomplish is taking resources away from the game to make content for an incredibly small minority of players.On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings.
So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with? You literally bolded this part, but apparently failed to read it. How would making vet EASIER cause people who didn't run it before cause of the difficulty spike stay away from vet even more? You think maybe if vet was easier they would maybe... Find it more accessible? Just maybe?
The reason a nightmare more would help is because it would push vet into being a medium difficulty tier. ZOS would avoid having to fail at designing vet in a way that appeases two kinds of players requiring vastly different dungeon experiences. It would allow ZOS the freedom to give everybody what they want, go full out with nightmare difficulty while balancing vet to please the large midtier bracket of players (most of which are being punished for the point they are at because they have often outgrown normal.)
Or maybe you're right and making vet easier will drive away people who didn't run it cause it was too difficult. We just don't know, eh?
And if you care about your friends' gaming experience so much, maybe you should be honest with them and explain to them that LA weaving and AC are in no way required for those vet dungeons they fear. Why would you support their being misinformed rather than encourage them? Because it makes for a good argument?
Part of the reason people who don't care for the TES IP play this game is because of the combat system, whether you like that or not. It may suffer a lot of issues overall, but the fast pace is what appeals to a lot of people because of the contrast it has to other combat systems.
The 'high end vet community' being not welcoming is factually wrong. It's a silly, biased claim based on no facts. In the end, the proof is in the pudding: you attack people whose views on the combat system differ from yours with no shame, bit somehow in your mind manage to project your behavior onto others. And I don't even doubt that you've managed to delude yourself into not seeing that it's actually you doing it, and no one else.
Ha!
Face it. Skyrim, Oblivion and the other ES games are way more popular then eso. When they announced ES 6 everyone went nuts. And the only reason Greymoor is of interest to anyone is because of ES 5.
Maybe the game should be more like them if they want to attract players.
••••
No one will do the vet mode even if it’s turned down. Nightmare and the rewards that drop there will be the new “vet” just with a new name.
The wait times on the vet dungeons will also get longer further making them less attractive.
You are not adding more players to this content. You are just dividing the small amount of players doing this content into more pools.
Except in this case, unless you make the rewards exactly the same as nightmare, no one will be doing vet. And if you do make the rewards the same, the amount of people doing nightmare will go down to a few bored high end players. It’s lose-lose and a development resource waste.
If you want a higher success rate in dungeons, the combat system needs to be improved. Pure and simple.
Your trying to blame the road, when it’s the car we are driving is the problem.
I tried going back to TES 5 after playing ESO... I couldn't do it.. the combat was clunky, slow, and not engaging in the least. It's the pace of combat in ESO that makes it what it is.The Unshattered - Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - The Brilliant - Moth Trusted - The Just - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger70,730 achievement points3 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »
The current combat system is the limiting factor in dungeon, trial, and pvp participation. It’s not intuitive, it does not play like previous ES games, and it is straight up intimidating to new players.
And telling new players they need to refer to third party websites to be effective in combat should be a giant red flag that something is inherently wrong.
Combat needs to get back to its ES roots.
We definitely dont Need Skyrim or Oblivion Combat in ESO thank you very much.
Actually we kind of do.
The combat system in this game is not attracting new players. Nostalgia over the ES franchise is way more of a draw.0 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭However I do know that 90% of the people on my friends list won't even attempt to do Vet content because they can't keep up with AC or light attack weaving.
Because the combat in this game is awful.
Question 1: why do they think you need AC/weaving to complete vet dungeons? You can literally place DOTs and heavy attack your way through 90% of the vet dungeons.
Question 2: why are you playing this game if you think the combat is so awful?PC - EU (AD)Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer3 -
pelle412✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »SWTOR has SOLO STORY mode to teach people the basic mechanics before they go into 4-team Veteran and it works brilliantly. In Veteran you learn additional mechanics to prepare you for Master Mode. It's a good progression that not only teaches mechanics but shows you what all roles need to do.
Not all flashpoints in SWTOR has a story mode. In general I agree it is a nice feature, but doing them isn't a guarantee you will mess up on higher difficulties.0 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »
The current combat system is the limiting factor in dungeon, trial, and pvp participation. It’s not intuitive, it does not play like previous ES games, and it is straight up intimidating to new players.
And telling new players they need to refer to third party websites to be effective in combat should be a giant red flag that something is inherently wrong.
Combat needs to get back to its ES roots.
We definitely dont Need Skyrim or Oblivion Combat in ESO thank you very much.
Actually we kind of do.
The combat system in this game is not attracting new players. Nostalgia over the ES franchise is way more of a draw.
Not the first person to sing praises about the combat, but ES single player is just not compatible.
As for the people screaming Vet too hard, they are literally dialing things back down. Mechanics in normal should be more difficult to enforce the idea of even bothering to do them half the time. Cloudrest honestly comes a bit close. The portal unlike in NSS vs VSS is required on both ends. The jump mechanic isn't a one shot like in NSS and it should be, but that is at least the least of the issues. Sure its easier, but it should be for normal.
For players talking about solo mode, that won't teach much. You would need a gatekeeper with a dps and mechanic check to que for vet if you want that. Yes I do mean a DPS check for DPS, plus a nice "Hey, remember that bash command? The one you never use? Then go on the forums and complain that a boss with a pounce killed you guys, and you had NO way to counter it? Maybe learn to use it here or just never get to que for vet." Something basic like that.1 -
Raisin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭/facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?
In the end all this will accomplish is taking resources away from the game to make content for an incredibly small minority of players.On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings.
So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with? You literally bolded this part, but apparently failed to read it. How would making vet EASIER cause people who didn't run it before cause of the difficulty spike stay away from vet even more? You think maybe if vet was easier they would maybe... Find it more accessible? Just maybe?
The reason a nightmare more would help is because it would push vet into being a medium difficulty tier. ZOS would avoid having to fail at designing vet in a way that appeases two kinds of players requiring vastly different dungeon experiences. It would allow ZOS the freedom to give everybody what they want, go full out with nightmare difficulty while balancing vet to please the large midtier bracket of players (most of which are being punished for the point they are at because they have often outgrown normal.)
Or maybe you're right and making vet easier will drive away people who didn't run it cause it was too difficult. We just don't know, eh?
And if you care about your friends' gaming experience so much, maybe you should be honest with them and explain to them that LA weaving and AC are in no way required for those vet dungeons they fear. Why would you support their being misinformed rather than encourage them? Because it makes for a good argument?
Part of the reason people who don't care for the TES IP play this game is because of the combat system, whether you like that or not. It may suffer a lot of issues overall, but the fast pace is what appeals to a lot of people because of the contrast it has to other combat systems.
The 'high end vet community' being not welcoming is factually wrong. It's a silly, biased claim based on no facts. In the end, the proof is in the pudding: you attack people whose views on the combat system differ from yours with no shame, bit somehow in your mind manage to project your behavior onto others. And I don't even doubt that you've managed to delude yourself into not seeing that it's actually you doing it, and no one else.
Ha!
Face it. Skyrim, Oblivion and the other ES games are way more popular then eso. When they announced ES 6 everyone went nuts. And the only reason Greymoor is of interest to anyone is because of ES 5.
Maybe the game should be more like them if they want to attract players.
••••
No one will do the vet mode even if it’s turned down. Nightmare and the rewards that drop there will be the new “vet” just with a new name.
The wait times on the vet dungeons will also get longer further making them less attractive.
You are not adding more players to this content. You are just dividing the small amount of players doing this content into more pools.
Except in this case, unless you make the rewards exactly the same as nightmare, no one will be doing vet. And if you do make the rewards the same, the amount of people doing nightmare will go down to a few bored high end players. It’s lose-lose and a development resource waste.
If you want a higher success rate in dungeons, the combat system needs to be improved. Pure and simple.
Your trying to blame the road, when it’s the car we are driving is the problem.
The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games. It has nothing to do with better or worse. And there are legitimately a lot of people (more than I would have expected) that came here for the MMO, not the IP. There are multiplayer mods for the single player games if you want that (even Morrowind with its beyond broken combat
), but the combat style has no place in ESO.
Saying that no one would play a medium difficulty is just wrong. People have been asking for it, or for vet to be turned down for ages. The topic comes up again and again. Who are you to say people don't want that? If you think that people are happy with normal difficulty as it is and no medium at all, why are you even discussing this? Why not keep your AC debate in a relevant thread then? Whether a potential nightmare mode is called vet, or the name vet gets tied to the new medium difficulty honestly makes little difference, outside of some small psychological aspects for marketing to worry about. And while I know some disagree, I think a hardcore difficulty tier shouldn't have extra special rewards. It just sends us back to the accessibility/exclusivity issue. The difficulty should be there just for the sake of enjoyment and challenge.
You have a horribly skewed and biased perspective that ignores facts and reason, and I really suggest you read the very insightful points others have brought up early in the thread and take them seriously. You will not get anywhere unless you face the facts and allow yourself to be more honest about how all of this works. The fact that you're refusing to accept actual facts and things that play into this thing is what makes your points come off as so moot, you know? If you can't acknowledge even the most obvious things, how can anyone take what you say seriously? You don't have to deny everything to bring counter points... But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements.Edited by Raisin on March 12, 2020 2:23PM0 -
thadjarvis✭✭✭✭I mostly play in pugs because one thing that really annoys me is that guilds want you to be experienced in vet content before they will accept you into a core, very few guilds on console take inexperienced players in and actually teach mechs of vet content.
The Lokkestiiz and the final boss. If it’s you first time you have no idea what you’re in for. The group dynamic changes with the double stack and ice prison. The statues and dynamic mechanics on Final.
I have learned vet Crags from zone's and joined a guild that would teach vDLC's. Sounds like an issue with the community platform. vDLC trials rightly require coordination and damage, which is usually coupled with a RL's spoken explanation of the mechanics. If you've done vet SS and feel this way, why not step up and run some training trials? Make it a positive learning space. That's how MMOs work imo.
On requiring vet experience before being in groups going beyond (HMs) that makes sense. Moreover, I didn't set foot in a vet Trial as a DD until I wiped myself 1,000 of times in vMA and in small groups (dungeons). Before I joined a core, I figured out rotation and how to parse. I think an issue is that some players want to hop half-way up the ESO progression ladder all at once. Enjoy the game. It's less pressure and more fun dying and wiping solo or in small groups rather than killing 11 others.
I love running training trials/dungeons and many do. But teaching RL's burnout if those that come to learn haven't done any similar difficulty content in solo/small group content as they are trying to teach and coordinate 11 players. It's neither practical nor effective to try to individually teach 11 players how to do Vet content all at once. For that taking a group through say vDLC dungeon is a better experience. Again too many players want to skip that; why?1 -
Aznarb✭✭✭✭✭
✭kathandira wrote: »So the only way to learn mechs is through suffering and trial and error
What's so wrong with learning through trial and error?
Indeed. This is how many learn. But as well, the age of internet breeds those who would rather let someone else figure things out, then wait for a guide, rather than living the learning process themselves.
100% this.
That the thing who annoys me the most, same for all these add-on player using thing who told them what to do, what next and what focus them, 0 skill to my eyes.
That why I said console player who do all content are the best player cuz they are not assisted.
Their is not a lot of PC player who can do the same.
Game was always about this : figure how mecha work and learn how to passe them.
That literally the only purpose of a game, why even play if you just wait that someone told you the solution..
Every new patch with my groups we avoid PTS and forum to not get spoiled, it feel so much more fun to do the run by ourself.
Hell, the 1st time in vBRP (never do the normal mode) we took 5 hour of our week-end to complete it. It was intense and very demanding, but the feeling when it was done.. Feel awesome..
The second time we took only 1h cuz we know mechanic way better.
I don't have run it again yet since we got all we needed, but I'm sur we can do the speed run easy now.
Don't rush content, their is no shame to struggle, just be patient and learn, DG is not going away and it's the fastest way to be a better player imho.Edited by Aznarb on March 12, 2020 2:46PM[ PC EU ]
[ Khuram-dar ]
[ Khajiit ]
[ Templar - Healer ]
[Crazy Gatherer & Compulsive Thief]2 -
ATreeGnome✭✭✭✭ATreeGnome wrote: »Alright, I will be the one who throws the hand grenade.
The reason for the giant gap is animation canceling.
Normal is for the average player that can’t/won’t do AC and the vet content basically requires it.
And it’s horrible.
The current combat team is creating a two tier combat system and that is really disappointing. I remember back when the game began where the developers did not want to even allow dps meters and I wish they stuck to that commitment. The game would have been a lot more accessible. Now we have watered down abilities balanced around a mechanic that most modern combat video games would not touch with a ten foot pole.
People have cleared vMoL HM when 30k DPS was considered godlike. Before all of the nerfs to the trial itself too. And these days you can hit 30k with three DoTs and a spammable while watching and admiring every frame of your character's animations. AC has nothing to do with dungeon diffuclty.
Stop blaming all of your failures and incompetence on one basic gameplay mechanic which is present in one form or another in most online videogames.
VMoL was created well before the AC madness that we have today. Does VSunspire require AC? What about the VScalebreaker dungeons? VMazz? VCoS?
Look I don't care, if you want to bury your head and ask why you can't find groups that can clear this stuff when the answer is obvious, then go do what you do. But the amount of people doing these dungeons is small, and if you want to grow that amount of people doing them it starts at the combat system, pure and simple.
But hey if you are a dps and what to wait a while for a group that AT BEST has a 50/50 shot at actually completing the DLC vet dungeon than congrats, the system is working just fine.
AC was most definitely a thing when vMoL came out and well before too. The only content that could be legitimately argued to actually "require" animation canceling in any capacity are the highest DPS checks, which is pretty much just Navi hard mode. Everything else in the game can certainly be completed without it with reasonable DPS as long as the players can properly do mechanics . Which is the entire point of this discussion - that less experienced player often don't have opportunities to learn vet mechanics. Animation canceling has nothing to do with it.Always fun to read when people use animation canceling as a scapegoat. Animation canceling isn't going to boost your dps by 300%, it's just an excuse for refusing to actually learn rotations and setting up characters properly. Animation canceling only makes a small difference in the end, the issue most of the times is that people that complain about low dps don't have: 1. Good rotations (biggest factor), 2 bad gear, 3. Don't Light Attack between each skill 4. CP not set correctly/ low CP.
@alcast Are you referring to me? Do you think I am making excuses about not completing vet content? That's cute.
However I do know that 90% of the people on my friends list won't even attempt to do Vet content because they can't keep up with AC or light attack weaving.
There is a massive difference between your friends thinking they need to animation cancel to complete vet content and actually needing to animation cancel to complete vet content. If they are willing to use a reasonable build and learn a simple, static rotation - even without light attack weaving - there's no reason that they can't pull adaquet DPS to complete 99% of the vet content, even most hard modes, in this game as long as they follow mechanics.
vMoL is a spectacular example. Due to the power creep since the trial was released, it is easily possible for a player with a reasonable build to do more damage by simply spamming light attacks than the best players were able to at the time of release. Adding an ability like Endless Hail or Wall of Elements in to the mix pushes it even further with minimal effort. There are a variety of other "lazy" builds out there, such as the ever popular heavy attack sorc builds, that can similarly pull adequate numbers with minimal effort and no animation canceling.
Despite these low skill requirements and ease of access to gear for builds like these, many groups still struggle to clear even the first boss in vMoL. I've been in countless groups that wipe over and over again and the issue is always always always the same thing - people don't respect the mechanics. Either they don't know it or they have the false idea that ignoring the mechanics to put out slightly more damage will somehow get them through or they just don't want to try hard enough to pay attention.
Animation canceling won't save a group from overlapping too many curses on Zhaj'hassa. Animation canceling won't prevent the group from wiping on twins if a player doesn't swap sides when their color changes. Animation canceling won't save anyone from Void Combustion going off in the group on Rhakkat. It has been years since I've seen a group, even Craglorn pugs, that was unable clear due to a lack of DPS. It's mechanics every single time.
The same holds true for most other trials too, even if there's less room for error. Most of the DPS checks can be met with easily accessible builds that don't require animation canceling. Groups still struggle though because they don't understand the mechanics, so people die, and the group wipes because the group can't deal with the mechanics well enough to rez the dead and recover.
The same issues apply to most dungeons as well.6 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭/facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?
In the end all this will accomplish is taking resources away from the game to make content for an incredibly small minority of players.On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings.
So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with? You literally bolded this part, but apparently failed to read it. How would making vet EASIER cause people who didn't run it before cause of the difficulty spike stay away from vet even more? You think maybe if vet was easier they would maybe... Find it more accessible? Just maybe?
The reason a nightmare more would help is because it would push vet into being a medium difficulty tier. ZOS would avoid having to fail at designing vet in a way that appeases two kinds of players requiring vastly different dungeon experiences. It would allow ZOS the freedom to give everybody what they want, go full out with nightmare difficulty while balancing vet to please the large midtier bracket of players (most of which are being punished for the point they are at because they have often outgrown normal.)
Or maybe you're right and making vet easier will drive away people who didn't run it cause it was too difficult. We just don't know, eh?
And if you care about your friends' gaming experience so much, maybe you should be honest with them and explain to them that LA weaving and AC are in no way required for those vet dungeons they fear. Why would you support their being misinformed rather than encourage them? Because it makes for a good argument?
Part of the reason people who don't care for the TES IP play this game is because of the combat system, whether you like that or not. It may suffer a lot of issues overall, but the fast pace is what appeals to a lot of people because of the contrast it has to other combat systems.
The 'high end vet community' being not welcoming is factually wrong. It's a silly, biased claim based on no facts. In the end, the proof is in the pudding: you attack people whose views on the combat system differ from yours with no shame, bit somehow in your mind manage to project your behavior onto others. And I don't even doubt that you've managed to delude yourself into not seeing that it's actually you doing it, and no one else.
Ha!
Face it. Skyrim, Oblivion and the other ES games are way more popular then eso. When they announced ES 6 everyone went nuts. And the only reason Greymoor is of interest to anyone is because of ES 5.
Maybe the game should be more like them if they want to attract players.
••••
No one will do the vet mode even if it’s turned down. Nightmare and the rewards that drop there will be the new “vet” just with a new name.
The wait times on the vet dungeons will also get longer further making them less attractive.
You are not adding more players to this content. You are just dividing the small amount of players doing this content into more pools.
Except in this case, unless you make the rewards exactly the same as nightmare, no one will be doing vet. And if you do make the rewards the same, the amount of people doing nightmare will go down to a few bored high end players. It’s lose-lose and a development resource waste.
If you want a higher success rate in dungeons, the combat system needs to be improved. Pure and simple.
Your trying to blame the road, when it’s the car we are driving is the problem.
The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games. It has nothing to do with better or worse. And there are legitimately a lot of people (more than I would have expected) that came here for the MMO, not the IP. There are multiplayer mods for the single player games if you want that (even Morrowind with its beyond broken combat ), but the combat style has no place in ESO.
Saying that no one would play a medium difficulty is just wrong. People have been asking for it, or for vet to be turned down for ages. The topic comes up again and again. Who are you to say people don't want that? If you think that people are happy with normal difficulty as it is and no medium at all, why are you even discussing this? Why not keep your AC debate in a relevant thread then? Whether a potential nightmare mode is called vet, or the name vet gets tied to the new medium difficulty honestly makes little difference, outside of some small psychological aspects for marketing to worry about. And while I know some disagree, I think a hardcore difficulty tier shouldn't have extra special rewards. It just sends us back to the accessibility/exclusivity issue. The difficulty should be there just for the sake of enjoyment and challenge.
You have a horribly skewed and biased perspective that ignores facts and reason, and I really suggest you read the very insightful points others have brought up early in the thread and take them seriously. You will not get anywhere unless you face the facts and allow yourself to be more honest about how all of this works. The fact that you're refusing to accept actual facts and things that play into this thing is what makes your points come off as so moot, you know? If you can't acknowledge even the most obvious things, how can anyone take what you say seriously? You don't have to deny everything to bring counter points... But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements.
Fallout 76's combat (a MMO) plays exactly like fallout 4 except vats is a bit tweaked. If you have played fallout 4 for any length of time, the look and feel of combat in fallout 76 is exactly the same.
Saying "It's a mmo so it has to be different" is a cop out.
If Bethesda announced "Same old Skyrim, but with friends!" the sales would be through the roof and we all know this, and that would count as a MMO. And the combat system would not have to be changed, at all.
You are not attracting more people with a medium difficulty. If vet gave out the same rewards as normal, no one would do vet, they would stay in normal mode. Making a harder "Nightmare" mode with better rewards will just have people asking for "Nightmare" mode to be made easier so they can do it to get those rewards.
So what do you want? Just easier vet modes? Sure! Make them the same as normal for all I care. The main reason people do vet modes is to get the helmets, if a new nightmare mode were to be created with better helmets (or whatever) than people will stop doing vet and do a now harder version of vet (i.e. nightmare).
So what was the end result here? To rename vet into nightmare and make it even harder? Will the vet modes have different rewards, so people have to do both instead of doing one? is that really an answer?
Anyway all of this comes back to a combat system that is poorly thought out and executed.
Make a more intuitive, friendlier combat system then more people will do activities that are combat related.
More people doing combat related activities then more people will start doing dungeons.
More people doing dungeons then more people familiar with the mechanics of dungeons and a higher success rate will happen.
0 -
FierceSam✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Alright, I will be the one who throws the hand grenade.
The reason for the giant gap is animation canceling.
Normal is for the average player that can’t/won’t do AC and the vet content basically requires it.
That's a very different stance from most people who defend AC. they say the difference in dps is not large. so which is it, is AC way OP and needs to be nerfed (in a way which does not change the feel of combat) or is it fine as is? it can't be both.
The current combat system is the limiting factor in dungeon, trial, and pvp participation. It’s not intuitive, it does not play like previous ES games, and it is straight up intimidating to new players.
And telling new players they need to refer to third party websites to be effective in combat should be a giant red flag that something is inherently wrong.
Combat needs to get back to its ES roots.
Personally, I could not care less how previous ES single player games have implemented combat. It’s a complete irrelevance here.
I don’t find ESO combat to be unintuitive. I don’t think the current combat system is a limiting factor in dungeon or trial participation - fear of negative reactions from other players (from the deluded “you need >Xk dps to do vet”, to randomly kicking players for low CP or abusing them in group chat) would be a far bigger limiting factor in my eyes. I’d suggest that this, rather than combat is also the limiting factor in bringing new players into PvP.
It can be intimidating to new player, but that is a feature of any skills based game where you have to learn how to play. It’s unfortunate that it’s made more intimidating as a consequence of ZOS’s lamentable track record of useless, unhelpful tutorials and a total absence of practise areas that provide genuine feedback (the sort of thing you get in pretty much every single player game of pretty much any genre).
It’s similarly lamentable that they have dobbed off all explanation to random 3rd parties, although many of these people have responded with excellent, informative content which has improved my playing and enjoyment of the game immensely.4 -
Aznarb✭✭✭✭✭
✭ATreeGnome wrote: »ATreeGnome wrote: »Alright, I will be the one who throws the hand grenade.
The reason for the giant gap is animation canceling.
Normal is for the average player that can’t/won’t do AC and the vet content basically requires it.
And it’s horrible.
The current combat team is creating a two tier combat system and that is really disappointing. I remember back when the game began where the developers did not want to even allow dps meters and I wish they stuck to that commitment. The game would have been a lot more accessible. Now we have watered down abilities balanced around a mechanic that most modern combat video games would not touch with a ten foot pole.
People have cleared vMoL HM when 30k DPS was considered godlike. Before all of the nerfs to the trial itself too. And these days you can hit 30k with three DoTs and a spammable while watching and admiring every frame of your character's animations. AC has nothing to do with dungeon diffuclty.
Stop blaming all of your failures and incompetence on one basic gameplay mechanic which is present in one form or another in most online videogames.
VMoL was created well before the AC madness that we have today. Does VSunspire require AC? What about the VScalebreaker dungeons? VMazz? VCoS?
Look I don't care, if you want to bury your head and ask why you can't find groups that can clear this stuff when the answer is obvious, then go do what you do. But the amount of people doing these dungeons is small, and if you want to grow that amount of people doing them it starts at the combat system, pure and simple.
But hey if you are a dps and what to wait a while for a group that AT BEST has a 50/50 shot at actually completing the DLC vet dungeon than congrats, the system is working just fine.
AC was most definitely a thing when vMoL came out and well before too. The only content that could be legitimately argued to actually "require" animation canceling in any capacity are the highest DPS checks, which is pretty much just Navi hard mode. Everything else in the game can certainly be completed without it with reasonable DPS as long as the players can properly do mechanics . Which is the entire point of this discussion - that less experienced player often don't have opportunities to learn vet mechanics. Animation canceling has nothing to do with it.Always fun to read when people use animation canceling as a scapegoat. Animation canceling isn't going to boost your dps by 300%, it's just an excuse for refusing to actually learn rotations and setting up characters properly. Animation canceling only makes a small difference in the end, the issue most of the times is that people that complain about low dps don't have: 1. Good rotations (biggest factor), 2 bad gear, 3. Don't Light Attack between each skill 4. CP not set correctly/ low CP.
@alcast Are you referring to me? Do you think I am making excuses about not completing vet content? That's cute.
However I do know that 90% of the people on my friends list won't even attempt to do Vet content because they can't keep up with AC or light attack weaving.
There is a massive difference between your friends thinking they need to animation cancel to complete vet content and actually needing to animation cancel to complete vet content. If they are willing to use a reasonable build and learn a simple, static rotation - even without light attack weaving - there's no reason that they can't pull adaquet DPS to complete 99% of the vet content, even most hard modes, in this game as long as they follow mechanics.
vMoL is a spectacular example. Due to the power creep since the trial was released, it is easily possible for a player with a reasonable build to do more damage by simply spamming light attacks than the best players were able to at the time of release. Adding an ability like Endless Hail or Wall of Elements in to the mix pushes it even further with minimal effort. There are a variety of other "lazy" builds out there, such as the ever popular heavy attack sorc builds, that can similarly pull adequate numbers with minimal effort and no animation canceling.
Despite these low skill requirements and ease of access to gear for builds like these, many groups still struggle to clear even the first boss in vMoL. I've been in countless groups that wipe over and over again and the issue is always always always the same thing - people don't respect the mechanics. Either they don't know it or they have the false idea that ignoring the mechanics to put out slightly more damage will somehow get them through or they just don't want to try hard enough to pay attention.
Animation canceling won't save a group from overlapping too many curses on Zhaj'hassa. Animation canceling won't prevent the group from wiping on twins if a player doesn't swap sides when their color changes. Animation canceling won't save anyone from Void Combustion going off in the group on Rhakkat. It has been years since I've seen a group, even Craglorn pugs, that was unable clear due to a lack of DPS. It's mechanics every single time.
The same holds true for most other trials too, even if there's less room for error. Most of the DPS checks can be met with easily accessible builds that don't require animation canceling. Groups still struggle though because they don't understand the mechanics, so people die, and the group wipes because the group can't deal with the mechanics well enough to rez the dead and recover.
The same issues apply to most dungeons as well.
Agree, can't count the number of people I've met in PUG who can't do more than 10k DPS at 810CP.
That the 1st reason why I avoid pug like plague.
All my healer can do 10k with no effort.
My templar and sorc heal can do between 20 and 30k.
I read someone speaking about VSS w/o weaving, my social guild who is full casual clean it every week..
Not always easy cuz the majority of them still struggle a bit with placement.
Here are the average DPS across the run, they did it with 6 wipe.
Do you think they've insane DPS number ?
And 90% of them don't know how to cut/weave properly.
But they don't complain and try every week.
Until know the 2 only trial they've not try yet are vHof and vCR.
They've do all other and all HM of craglorn.
People should stop complaining and making excuse and just learn how to play.
If you don't like this kind of content and don't want to put time and effort on it, don't run them and stop cry everyday on forum.
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