The vast difference in difficulty from norm to vet.

akdave0

I have been playing for quite sometime now and had planned on posting this a while ago but not much of a conversation starter. But:

There is a huge difference in the mechanics and difficulty between normal content versus vet content. The most notable for me have been.
I mostly play in pugs because one thing that really annoys me is that guilds want you to be experienced in vet content before they will accept you into a core, very few guilds on console take inexperienced players in and actually teach mechs of vet content. Or their elitist/toxic culture is sickening.
Sunspire trial.
The Lokkestiiz and the final boss. If it’s you first time you have no idea what you’re in for. The group dynamic changes with the double stack and ice prison. The statues and dynamic mechanics on Final.

Scalecaller Peak.
Poison boss and Final. Completely different mechs, not even going to get into HM.

And there are many other same incidents through out the game. So the only way to learn mechs is through suffering and trial and error. Yes, you can read about it and I have, but there is a difference in that.

There should be a medium difficulty, where you have all the mechs of vet with normal health and 50% vet damage. This way, people who are new can learn without the struggle or the feeling that they are being carried or not worthy due to inexperience. This would benefit everyone guilds and pugs alike.

Thoughts?

SMG_Spytock

Yeah, the difficulty gap is there, I like it tho. Also, if you are XBOX NA and want a guild that run vet dungeons wihtout discrimination lol hit me up. Currently building our Trials team

karekiz

akdave0 wrote: »

Scalecaller Peak.
Poison boss and Final. Completely different mechs, not even going to get into HM.

To be fair

FInal Boss wise I think the mechanics are the same. Stuff that one shots just doesn't one shot in Normal, however its clear that it will in Vet. A rule of thumb if it takes roughly 90-95% of your life in normal for standing in it, then in vet its probably a one shot.

As for VSS, most mechanics play out the same. Ice boss on non HM at least is basically the same. Atro's spawn -> They get killed by the same mechanic -> The circles spawn in the back -> Ice breath attack. That is basically Vet mode.

Difference? Normal you can skip every mechanic. Ice spawns in back? Who cares it won't kill you. Ice Atro not pulled into AoE? Who cares you can manually kill it. Ice Breath happens on a DPS? Liveable.

Vet just makes you:
1. Actually heal the caged player
2. Do the mechanic with the atro's <And punish you for messing it up>
3. Ice breath hit harder + boss has more HP.

So to balance out the two, normal should be increased in difficulty and force players into mechanics, just easier versions. Ignoring cages should essentially kill the group. Should have to split <As thats the biggest difference in the fire boss>. Lastly you need to do portals in normal instead of ignoring them.

I don't even know if you have the debuff for iced cages on normal or not. I would assume you don't <similar to not having to create two stacks in Normal Fire boss.

Tommy_The_Gun

At this point I think they should make 4 difficulty settings and re-vamp all dungeons & DLC dungeons.
So we would have: Normal / Medium / Veteran / Hard Mode

MudcrabAttack

The newest dungeons might have closed the gap a bit. Vet felt easy enough to pug with CP 300's, and none of us knew the mechanics going in. And normal actually felt a tad more difficult than the other dungeons on normal. Like the flesh atronach in Icereach had something like 6 million health on normal, and maybe 12 million on vet. Health isn't a good indicator of difficulty, but it wasn't like other normal dungeons where bosses can be snapped like twigs.

FierceSam

Normal just isn’t a pathway for vet content.

It would be lovely if it were, but it isn’t. Which is why so many players just leap straight into vet.

The issues you face, learning how to adapt and overcome the vet mechanics, are experienced by everyone. Some deal with them more effectively, but everyone has to learn them. It’s why the first week or so of new dungeons is so enjoyable, because it’s all new to everyone. Once players have learnt them though, they seem to blank this entire process out of their heads and assume that everyone knows how to do it.

The best thing you can do is get a group of players you like together and experience the ‘joy’ of discovery with them. Yes it can take a stupidly long period of time and be psychologically harsh (possibly one reason why so many players blank the experience from their minds), but it’s also stupidly fun and rewarding.

Finally getting something like vSCP right is a great feeling that many players who can blast their way through it would love to recapture.

Good luck finding your group and have fun.

Agenericname

In SCP, and most other dungeons the mechanics are very similar if not exactly the same, just toned down a bit. You can learn most of the mechanics on normal, but in most cases groups will just heal through mistakes that would kill them in vet and continue to DPS.

I don't have anything against an additional tier of difficulty per se, but if it can be healed through without obeying the mechanics it will be.

Royaji

Reality is that if a mechanic is not going to kill you when failed, it can be healed through and thus ignored.

Normal has the vast majority of vet mechanics. It's just that you don't see them because a) bosses die too quickly and b) you don't actually have to successfully complete a mechanic, even if you fail your healer will save you.

This medium difficulty you are looking for does not really exist.

redlink1979

akdave0 wrote: »

So the only way to learn mechs is through suffering and trial and error

Not necessarily. There's a lot of content about dungeon/trial runs on vet mode n vet hard mode: there are guides and vids. So, you can get an insight about mechs before jumping in.

kathandira

akdave0 wrote: »

I mostly play in pugs because one thing that really annoys me is that guilds want you to be experienced in vet content before they will accept you into a core, very few guilds on console take inexperienced players in and actually teach mechs of vet content. Or their elitist/toxic culture is sickening.

I have been in plenty of guilds who are the complete opposite of what you are claiming. I've played on Xbox, and currently am playing on PS4. And I can honestly say you need to do a better job of looking for more helpful guilds.

redgreensunset

redlink1979 wrote: »

akdave0 wrote: »

So the only way to learn mechs is through suffering and trial and error

Not necessarily. There's a lot of content about dungeon/trial runs on vet mode n vet hard mode: there are guides and vids. So, you can get an insight about mechs before jumping in.

But even knowing the mechanica going in, which is a plus, chances are you'll fail repeatedly unless you're the only new member of a very experienced group and even then you may end up failing a couple of times. I guess it depends on what your level for suffering is whether thia qualifies or not, but don't expect to breeze through or even succeed in the first 2 or 3 attempts on vet, even if you know the mechanics. I don't say this to discourage but so that people don't have unrealisric expectations. I ran Frost Vault last night on vet and bpy was that a different beast than normal, even knowing the mechanics of it.

LadyNalcarya

Yeah, it would be great if they introduced a third difficulty to close the gap between normal the vet. So normal mode would become "easy" and there will be the next, "normal" difficulty where mechanics would be important, but not as punishing as they are in vet versions.
As for guilds and "elitism", you don't have to join an experienced team to learn content. People clear trials and dungeons on pts, with no guides and (obviously) no experience in that particular trial or dungeon. You just have to make sure that everyone in group is capable and willing to learn. Of course, learning from scratch would take some time, but it's far from impossible.

karekiz

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Yeah, it would be great if they introduced a third difficulty to close the gap between normal the vet. So normal mode would become "easy" and there will be the next, "normal" difficulty where mechanics would be important, but not as punishing as they are in vet versions.

Wouldn't that be essentially what they are doing now with raids having more HM options instead of just one? Basically meaning Normal = Easy / Veteran Non HM = Normal / Vet HM = Hard?

Nemesis7884

for me unhallowed ground is a prime example and template not only with regards to design and mechanics that are fun and engaging but also with regards to difficulty progression between normal and vet. Vet feels challenging while still being fun and not too punishing...

Qbiken

So the only way to learn mechs is through suffering and trial and error

What's so wrong with learning through trial and error?

kathandira

Qbiken wrote: »

So the only way to learn mechs is through suffering and trial and error

What's so wrong with learning through trial and error?

Indeed. This is how many learn. But as well, the age of internet breeds those who would rather let someone else figure things out, then wait for a guide, rather than living the learning process themselves.

Raisin

The lack of a medium difficulty is genuinely ruining dungeons for a lot of people IMO. ZOS is trying really hard to balance around their two difficulties by making compromises that don't fully please anyone -- it'll always stay too hard for some, while not hard enough for others. It's a shame because even when the compromise is okay, I don't think it's good enough and gives players the dungeon experience they deserve. A complete re-balancing would breathe a lot of life back into dungeons; base game dungeons might actually become interesting for those that have moved on from them, and DLC dungeons can provide a more accessible level of challenge for midtier players. It'd solve all the arguing and moving around and inability to get things right.

Royaji

kathandira wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

So the only way to learn mechs is through suffering and trial and error

What's so wrong with learning through trial and error?

Indeed. This is how many learn. But as well, the age of internet breeds those who would rather let someone else figure things out, then wait for a guide, rather than living the learning process themselves.

That's the thing, they don't like getting information through guides too...

akdave0 wrote: »

So the only way to learn mechs is through suffering and trial and error. Yes, you can read about it and I have, but there is a difference in that.

So the question then is, how should we learn?

"No, you got it wrong again but don't worry, dear, you still pass and next time try a little harder. Of course you will also pass the next time too because we are not going to learn through trial and error but still try a little harder, sweetie, please?"

Sounds a bit too much like normal dungeons.

dazee

Normal mode is fine as it is, pugs already tend to struggle in normal DLC dungeons greatly.

Vet is also mostly fine as is, although some fine tuning would improve the vet content experience.

For instance, if they had more mechanics which could not be skipped with insanely high dps, people might stop demanding twice the dps required to clear for vet content.

Raisin

And specifically regarding the differences in mechanics... I support reasonable one-shots on the end of the difficulty spectrum. They're part of the thrill. That said, ZOS clearly doesn't know how to modify their mechanics in a way where they have to be played, without the one-shot penalty. This is why normal content offers no teaching experiences -- because if people can ignore it, they will ignore it. And often things move on so fast that they have no time to even think about the mechanic and get a look at it as it's happening. In more punishing vet content, death and wiping being the punishment for not following mechanics not only makes for a disheartening experience, it also means people don't have the option to exame mechanics and their aftereffects much as they happen, and experiment around. They are not being given the time. That time should be available in a normal mode, but there should be measures in place that halt progress of the fight (and still keep players mildly engaged) while figuring out what they need to do to advance. An almost one-shot a la low health scare doesn't work for that because of how strong PvE healing is, and even if it did it'd still be a bit meh. In the end I think normal should never be about being able to ignore the mechanics, it should be about being given the time, opportunity and hints to figure them out without being forced to restart.

Nestor

The DLC Dungeons on Vet are the answer to the Power Creep in the game.

Fungal Grotto on Vet is a logical progressive step from Normal. Especially if you factor in Fungal Grotto II Normal as one of the steps.

But, the DLCs have to be accessible by the masses, so the normal DLC dungeons, while harder than the original zone dungeons, will still feel dramatically different than Normal.

Malmai

CSGO where skill matters... Not animation canceling or abusing CPs or exploiting builds or zerging or having paid 2 win classes, every patch or having sub BAG and BANK or having dlc every 2 months on top of that every half year chapter to buy. You just go in and play.

codierussell

@Raisin

I completely agree with what you are saying. Firstly, the mechanics are usually there on normal but get ignored because there are no consequences to doing so. Secondly, I have been saying the exact same thing for awhile now, one shot mechanics do not make content harder.

Although I somewhat agree an in between difficulty would be good for lower end players the result would be the same difficulty as vet. With vSCP being brought up, I can almost guarantee that the problem mechanic is the persistent breath or whatever it is called. I haven't done it on normal but am guessing that it is not a one shot like in vet, so that would mean there is no in between difficulty as that is the only mechanic you will probably die from in either non hardmode and hardmode. You either get one shot or you survive, not to mention in vet a lot of groups just dps so fast that you don't get this mechanic.

I have always supported a full dungeon hardmode difficulty though. Something that would maybe nerf healing done, add more unpurgable bleeds that poses more of a threat than a one shot mechanic and on top of it add larger health to promote safer play not just a 3 mil burn. The new dungeons have very large health pools but honestly the fights are not that threatening so it just makes people bring in 3 really strong dps to get through it faster. I think making a harder difficulty could allow them to lower the regular vet difficulty and maybe close the gap.

Nestor

Oh, and don't forget, Vet DLC dungeons do get Nerfed about 6 months after they come out. At least once. Vet White Gold Tower used to be something to dread, now it is easier

Malmai

codierussell wrote: »

@Raisin

I completely agree with what you are saying. Firstly, the mechanics are usually there on normal but get ignored because there are no consequences to doing so. Secondly, I have been saying the exact same thing for awhile now, one shot mechanics do not make content harder.

Although I somewhat agree an in between difficulty would be good for lower end players the result would be the same difficulty as vet. With vSCP being brought up, I can almost guarantee that the problem mechanic is the persistent breath or whatever it is called. I haven't done it on normal but am guessing that it is not a one shot like in vet, so that would mean there is no in between difficulty as that is the only mechanic you will probably die from in either non hardmode and hardmode. You either get one shot or you survive, not to mention in vet a lot of groups just dps so fast that you don't get this mechanic.

I have always supported a full dungeon hardmode difficulty though. Something that would maybe nerf healing done, add more unpurgable bleeds that poses more of a threat than a one shot mechanic and on top of it add larger health to promote safer play not just a 3 mil burn. The new dungeons have very large health pools but honestly the fights are not that threatening so it just makes people bring in 3 really strong dps to get through it faster. I think making a harder difficulty could allow them to lower the regular vet difficulty and maybe close the gap.

Wat u wanna dwell in dungeons

idk

akdave0 wrote: »

I mostly play in pugs because one thing that really annoys me is that guilds want you to be experienced in vet content before they will accept you into a core, very few guilds on console take inexperienced players in and actually teach mechs of vet content. Or their elitist/toxic culture is sickening.

You have not found the right guild for yourself. While core teams are not "training" groups there are many guilds that have such training groups and within that, there are guilds for different levels of experience and skill levels.

So it is not toxicity or elitist. It is just good guild management. You just need to find the guild that fits your experience. We all start somewhere. Heck, many of us help out other guilds learn and clear the new content. So if all this was truly elitist and we were all toxic that would not happen.

To the main point of the OP, Zos changed it so most normal difficulty level instances had meaningless mechanics. I do think it is a travesty. Back when DSA was new my vDSA group used to bring players through normal to ensure they could handle the mechanics before bringing them into vet. Now that would be almost pointless as most of the mechanics are too weak to worry about. It is unfortunate but it also probably opens op more content for more players.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings all,

After removing a few baiting and off topic posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding,

ATreeGnome

akdave0 wrote: »

I have been playing for quite sometime now and had planned on posting this a while ago but not much of a conversation starter. But:

There is a huge difference in the mechanics and difficulty between normal content versus vet content. The most notable for me have been.
I mostly play in pugs because one thing that really annoys me is that guilds want you to be experienced in vet content before they will accept you into a core, very few guilds on console take inexperienced players in and actually teach mechs of vet content. Or their elitist/toxic culture is sickening.
Sunspire trial.
The Lokkestiiz and the final boss. If it’s you first time you have no idea what you’re in for. The group dynamic changes with the double stack and ice prison. The statues and dynamic mechanics on Final.

Scalecaller Peak.
Poison boss and Final. Completely different mechs, not even going to get into HM.

And there are many other same incidents through out the game. So the only way to learn mechs is through suffering and trial and error. Yes, you can read about it and I have, but there is a difference in that.

There should be a medium difficulty, where you have all the mechs of vet with normal health and 50% vet damage. This way, people who are new can learn without the struggle or the feeling that they are being carried or not worthy due to inexperience. This would benefit everyone guilds and pugs alike.

Thoughts?

I have thought for quite a while that there needs to be a mechanism that prepares players for vet/HM mechanics without making normal dungeons and trials too difficult for the more casual players who just want to have fun. A medium difficulty as described would work for some things, but even random pugs sometimes burn a boss in normal content before certain mechanics occur. I think there would need to be something that actually forces the players to encounter and perform each mechanic.

I think that another problem is that there's rarely incentive for experienced players to bring new players in to difficult content. If I've got a reliable 12 person team that I know can get through any trial will relative ease, why would I bring someone with no experience? Even for a dungeon, what in game motivation do I have to bring a new player if I can bring an experienced player and clear in less than half the time? Yeah, it might make me feel good to help someone, but that's it.

I think some sort of incentive system would help get experienced PvE players to take the time to teach new players how to do vet content. Maybe like once per account per week, if you help someone clear a vet dungeon or trial or a hardmode for their first time then everyone in the group gets a transmutation geode with a semi random number of transmutation gems. Maybe like 5-25 for a vet dungeon 10- 50 for a vet trial or dungeon HM or 15-75 for a trial vet HM. I know that every endgame raider has something they want to transmute. The incentives could be something different too, it just has to be something that experienced players will want but can't bought with gold or crowns.

BlueRaven

Alright, I will be the one who throws the hand grenade.

The reason for the giant gap is animation canceling.

Normal is for the average player that can’t/won’t do AC and the vet content basically requires it.

And it’s horrible.

The current combat team is creating a two tier combat system and that is really disappointing. I remember back when the game began where the developers did not want to even allow dps meters and I wish they stuck to that commitment. The game would have been a lot more accessible. Now we have watered down abilities balanced around a mechanic that most modern combat video games would not touch with a ten foot pole.

ATreeGnome

BlueRaven wrote: »

Alright, I will be the one who throws the hand grenade.

The reason for the giant gap is animation canceling.

Normal is for the average player that can’t/won’t do AC and the vet content basically requires it.

And it’s horrible.

The current combat team is creating a two tier combat system and that is really disappointing. I remember back when the game began where the developers did not want to even allow dps meters and I wish they stuck to that commitment. The game would have been a lot more accessible. Now we have watered down abilities balanced around a mechanic that most modern combat video games would not touch with a ten foot pole.

Animation canceling won't let you ignore mechanics in a vet trial like you can in normal. -_-

Raisin

BlueRaven wrote: »

Alright, I will be the one who throws the hand grenade.

The reason for the giant gap is animation canceling.

Normal is for the average player that can’t/won’t do AC and the vet content basically requires it.

And it’s horrible.

The current combat team is creating a two tier combat system and that is really disappointing. I remember back when the game began where the developers did not want to even allow dps meters and I wish they stuck to that commitment. The game would have been a lot more accessible. Now we have watered down abilities balanced around a mechanic that most modern combat video games would not touch with a ten foot pole.

You should've read the full thread to see the actual reasons behind the gap, before blowing yourself up with that hand grenade. Normal is still easy even without AC. Vet is still doable without AC as the only difference AC makes lies in DPS -- it has nothing to do with mechanics and the teaching of gameplay (which this thread is about). Sure, in the grand scheme of things you can fit the AC topic in a discussion about the playerbase's skill level... But it's honestly very irrelevant in this context and it doesn't compare to the other explanations and insights you'll find above your post.
You are very off the mark, sorry.