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The vast difference in difficulty from norm to vet.
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thadjarvis✭✭✭✭If this game did not have the Elder Scrolls in the name, it would have died long ago. No one is picking up a game with a combat system this bad without the IP of Elder Scrolls on it.
I respectfully disagree. Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and Star Trek are attractive IP to billions of people. Elder Scrolls probably only a few million even know what it is. The way the game plays, which is primarily combat, is the reason I and I would think many others selected ESO.4 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Septimus_Magna wrote: »However I do know that 90% of the people on my friends list won't even attempt to do Vet content because they can't keep up with AC or light attack weaving.
Because the combat in this game is awful.
Question 1: why do they think you need AC/weaving to complete vet dungeons? You can literally place DOTs and heavy attack your way through 90% of the vet dungeons.
Question 2: why are you playing this game if you think the combat is so awful?
1) Burning down a boss and their adds is a lot easier with higher dps no matter what the mechanics. And yes, if there is a boss that requires the timely execution of adds then the AC/weaving ability of at least most of the dungeon participants is required.
Letting the adds who heal the boss stay up too long, or start overwhelming the boss encounter with their numbers are mechanics that can stop any low dps group in it's tracks, even if they knew the mechanics of the boss perfectly.
2) The combat system is awful, but combat is not the only reason to play this game. Shockingly, there are plenty of other activities in ESO other than group dungeons or pvp. For example, I am an officer in multiple trade guilds, and I like ES lore. (Although, it seems more and more to just not count ESO as a proper ES game with the liberties it is taking with the lore. But that is another topic.)
I know how to do vet content, but I also know a bad combat system when I see it. Combat in ESO could be so much better with meaningful abilities and a more intuitive flow, not the muddied mess that we have now.
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MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭Alright, I will be the one who throws the hand grenade.
The reason for the giant gap is animation canceling.
Normal is for the average player that can’t/won’t do AC and the vet content basically requires it.
And it’s horrible.
The current combat team is creating a two tier combat system and that is really disappointing. I remember back when the game began where the developers did not want to even allow dps meters and I wish they stuck to that commitment. The game would have been a lot more accessible. Now we have watered down abilities balanced around a mechanic that most modern combat video games would not touch with a ten foot pole.
What does animation cancelling have to do with mechanics? Animation cancelling is nothing more than a way to add more damage and usually in my experience players worried about their damage are the first die and the reason why groups failed.
I have tried many no death runs and usually the players that ruin it are the ones worried about their damage and don't get out of the red as it would reduce their over all out put. In fact, those players should probably stick to the regular dungeons.
Give me a player that won't die and does mechanics over one that is worried about their damage.3 -
Raisin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Cool. And? Different games are different. Fallout was made on that principle, ESO wasn't./facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?
In the end all this will accomplish is taking resources away from the game to make content for an incredibly small minority of players.On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings.
So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with? You literally bolded this part, but apparently failed to read it. How would making vet EASIER cause people who didn't run it before cause of the difficulty spike stay away from vet even more? You think maybe if vet was easier they would maybe... Find it more accessible? Just maybe?
The reason a nightmare more would help is because it would push vet into being a medium difficulty tier. ZOS would avoid having to fail at designing vet in a way that appeases two kinds of players requiring vastly different dungeon experiences. It would allow ZOS the freedom to give everybody what they want, go full out with nightmare difficulty while balancing vet to please the large midtier bracket of players (most of which are being punished for the point they are at because they have often outgrown normal.)
Or maybe you're right and making vet easier will drive away people who didn't run it cause it was too difficult. We just don't know, eh?
And if you care about your friends' gaming experience so much, maybe you should be honest with them and explain to them that LA weaving and AC are in no way required for those vet dungeons they fear. Why would you support their being misinformed rather than encourage them? Because it makes for a good argument?
Part of the reason people who don't care for the TES IP play this game is because of the combat system, whether you like that or not. It may suffer a lot of issues overall, but the fast pace is what appeals to a lot of people because of the contrast it has to other combat systems.
The 'high end vet community' being not welcoming is factually wrong. It's a silly, biased claim based on no facts. In the end, the proof is in the pudding: you attack people whose views on the combat system differ from yours with no shame, bit somehow in your mind manage to project your behavior onto others. And I don't even doubt that you've managed to delude yourself into not seeing that it's actually you doing it, and no one else.
Ha!
Face it. Skyrim, Oblivion and the other ES games are way more popular then eso. When they announced ES 6 everyone went nuts. And the only reason Greymoor is of interest to anyone is because of ES 5.
Maybe the game should be more like them if they want to attract players.
••••
No one will do the vet mode even if it’s turned down. Nightmare and the rewards that drop there will be the new “vet” just with a new name.
The wait times on the vet dungeons will also get longer further making them less attractive.
You are not adding more players to this content. You are just dividing the small amount of players doing this content into more pools.
Except in this case, unless you make the rewards exactly the same as nightmare, no one will be doing vet. And if you do make the rewards the same, the amount of people doing nightmare will go down to a few bored high end players. It’s lose-lose and a development resource waste.
If you want a higher success rate in dungeons, the combat system needs to be improved. Pure and simple.
Your trying to blame the road, when it’s the car we are driving is the problem.
The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games. It has nothing to do with better or worse. And there are legitimately a lot of people (more than I would have expected) that came here for the MMO, not the IP. There are multiplayer mods for the single player games if you want that (even Morrowind with its beyond broken combat
), but the combat style has no place in ESO.
Saying that no one would play a medium difficulty is just wrong. People have been asking for it, or for vet to be turned down for ages. The topic comes up again and again. Who are you to say people don't want that? If you think that people are happy with normal difficulty as it is and no medium at all, why are you even discussing this? Why not keep your AC debate in a relevant thread then? Whether a potential nightmare mode is called vet, or the name vet gets tied to the new medium difficulty honestly makes little difference, outside of some small psychological aspects for marketing to worry about. And while I know some disagree, I think a hardcore difficulty tier shouldn't have extra special rewards. It just sends us back to the accessibility/exclusivity issue. The difficulty should be there just for the sake of enjoyment and challenge.
You have a horribly skewed and biased perspective that ignores facts and reason, and I really suggest you read the very insightful points others have brought up early in the thread and take them seriously. You will not get anywhere unless you face the facts and allow yourself to be more honest about how all of this works. The fact that you're refusing to accept actual facts and things that play into this thing is what makes your points come off as so moot, you know? If you can't acknowledge even the most obvious things, how can anyone take what you say seriously? You don't have to deny everything to bring counter points... But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements.
Fallout 76's combat (a MMO) plays exactly like fallout 4 except vats is a bit tweaked. If you have played fallout 4 for any length of time, the look and feel of combat in fallout 76 is exactly the same.
Well thank god no one said that, I guess!Saying "It's a mmo so it has to be different" is a cop out.
It sure would be something people always asked for and it sure would be an MMO. It also doesn't really change anything about ESO and the fact that they chose not to design it that way.If Bethesda announced "Same old Skyrim, but with friends!" the sales would be through the roof and we all know this, and that would count as a MMO. And the combat system would not have to be changed, at all.
You are 100% going to attract people with a medium difficulty. You are literally ignoring people ASKING FOR THIS FEATURE to remain wilfully ignorant. Literally no one suggested normal and vet should give out the same rewards -- why should they? No one suggested this. At all. And I just told you that I personally think that a hardcore/nightmare mode shouldn't offer better rewards for exactly that reason. Either don't read and don't respond, or read before you respond, please.You are not attracting more people with a medium difficulty. If vet gave out the same rewards as normal, no one would do vet, they would stay in normal mode. Making a harder "Nightmare" mode with better rewards will just have people asking for "Nightmare" mode to be made easier so they can do it to get those rewards.
What people want is a balancing of difficulty modes to provide better experiences for players as detailed in this thread. I will not type out a summary for you, it's right there for you to read. Again you ignore the part where a nightmare mode is supposed to exist solely for challenge and enjoyment. You're harping on counter arguments against nightmare mode having special drops when no one has said that it should, and the person you're rambling at (me) explicitly stated NOT wanting there to be better drops in nightmare. I'm sorry but genuinely, do you just love hearing yourself talk? Do you care at all about making sense and responding to things that have actually been said? Because it sounds like you're just imagining things you wish I said and then writing out your answers to those imaginations to me. I can't tell if you're just being purposefully obtuse now or if you're legitimately lost in your own world now.So what do you want? Just easier vet modes? Sure! Make them the same as normal for all I care. The main reason people do vet modes is to get the helmets, if a new nightmare mode were to be created with better helmets (or whatever) than people will stop doing vet and do a now harder version of vet (i.e. nightmare).
So what was the end result here? To rename vet into nightmare and make it even harder? Will the vet modes have different rewards, so people have to do both instead of doing one? is that really an answer?Anyway all of this comes back to a combat system that is poorly thought out and executed.
Make a more intuitive, friendlier combat system then more people will do activities that are combat related.
More people doing combat related activities then more people will start doing dungeons.
More people doing dungeons then more people familiar with the mechanics of dungeons and a higher success rate will happen.
All of it comes down to the various components of the issue that have been laid out in this thread. None of it comes down to the combat system you personally don't like. Changing the combat system is going to have 0 effect on the current difficulty balancing (or lack thereof) of content and the failure of the game to properly teach gameplay to players. Quite frankly nothing you say even has relevance to this topic. You're here fighting windmills.
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FierceSam✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »Alright, I will be the one who throws the hand grenade.
The reason for the giant gap is animation canceling.
Normal is for the average player that can’t/won’t do AC and the vet content basically requires it.
And it’s horrible.
The current combat team is creating a two tier combat system and that is really disappointing. I remember back when the game began where the developers did not want to even allow dps meters and I wish they stuck to that commitment. The game would have been a lot more accessible. Now we have watered down abilities balanced around a mechanic that most modern combat video games would not touch with a ten foot pole.
What does animation cancelling have to do with mechanics? Animation cancelling is nothing more than a way to add more damage and usually in my experience players worried about their damage are the first die and the reason why groups failed.
I have tried many no death runs and usually the players that ruin it are the ones worried about their damage and don't get out of the red as it would reduce their over all out put. In fact, those players should probably stick to the regular dungeons.
Give me a player that won't die and does mechanics over one that is worried about their damage.
Very true.
Going specifically for no death runs rather than being surprised/pleased when they accidentally happen is a very different, fun way of playing. I will change my set up and prioritise being alive at the end over doing damage. Progress might be slower, but there are very few bosses which require huge DPS just to progress. I find that deliberately trying not to die focuses my mind on the mechanics and is way more fun than simply bashing out the same rotation over and over again.
Our failures on deliberate no death runs are pretty much all mechanics related. You don’t need a catastrophically high DPS to do them. You do need to be aware of the mechanics and how to avoid/beat them.
Animation cancelling makes no difference in vSCP. It makes no difference in vSpindlecluch either. You’ll die to the one-shots if you can’t avoid them.1 -
jypcy✭✭✭✭✭I don’t see anything wrong with a medium difficulty. If it helps people make the move towards vet in steps rather than a leap, that could be helpful. I think most vet modes are still pretty accessible, though, even if the leap is significant. Hard modes are where it tends to start full on precluding somewhat average players from completions.
On the topic of nightmare mode, it could have the exact same rewards as vet and I’d still run it. My dungeon group has all of the achievements already (minus a few slayer ones), so we’ve recently been doing vbrp for double motifs or vcoa2 for the style page. We never use sigils/always turn on hm not because that increases drop rates (at least I don’t think it does), but just because we like the little extra challenge.
I agree that the combat in the game is relatively unintuitive. I wouldn’t change it, personally, but I do wish that the ai would make better use of it. I can imagine that it’s difficult for a player to understand how to maximize their damage when their examples are the yahoos throughout overworld that do a light attack every 2 seconds and only use an “ability” (with a 3 second casting time) every 10 seconds or so. I think if mobs looked more like they were weaving light attacks between skills, it’d be a lot easier for the playerbase to pick up on regardless of whether they read any guides or help text.1 -
ATreeGnome✭✭✭✭Septimus_Magna wrote: »However I do know that 90% of the people on my friends list won't even attempt to do Vet content because they can't keep up with AC or light attack weaving.
Because the combat in this game is awful.
Question 1: why do they think you need AC/weaving to complete vet dungeons? You can literally place DOTs and heavy attack your way through 90% of the vet dungeons.
Question 2: why are you playing this game if you think the combat is so awful?
1) Burning down a boss and their adds is a lot easier with higher dps no matter what the mechanics. And yes, if there is a boss that requires the timely execution of adds then the AC/weaving ability of at least most of the dungeon participants is required.
Letting the adds who heal the boss stay up too long, or start overwhelming the boss encounter with their numbers are mechanics that can stop any low dps group in it's tracks, even if they knew the mechanics of the boss perfectly.
Yes, killing something quickly is almost always easier and requires more DPS. Yes, light attack weaving is one way to achieve higher DPS. But a dungeon being easier with more damage is a far cry from a dungeon being impossible or even nearly impossible to complete without animation canceling. You can get enough DPS without animation canceling to get through virtually everything in the game, especially non-hardmode vet dungeons, without animation canceling. It just a matter of if you are willing to build for it and put in the effort to learn a rotation. If someone is unwilling to learn to AC and unwilling to improve their build and unwilling to learn a rotation, then they won't have enough DPS and honestly shouldn't be doing vet content. Vet content is meant to be a challenge and to force players to improve. AC is one way to do that, yes, but you can get adequate DPS without it as long as you put in the effort to improve other things enough.1 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Cool. And? Different games are different. Fallout was made on that principle, ESO wasn't./facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?
In the end all this will accomplish is taking resources away from the game to make content for an incredibly small minority of players.On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings.
So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with? You literally bolded this part, but apparently failed to read it. How would making vet EASIER cause people who didn't run it before cause of the difficulty spike stay away from vet even more? You think maybe if vet was easier they would maybe... Find it more accessible? Just maybe?
The reason a nightmare more would help is because it would push vet into being a medium difficulty tier. ZOS would avoid having to fail at designing vet in a way that appeases two kinds of players requiring vastly different dungeon experiences. It would allow ZOS the freedom to give everybody what they want, go full out with nightmare difficulty while balancing vet to please the large midtier bracket of players (most of which are being punished for the point they are at because they have often outgrown normal.)
Or maybe you're right and making vet easier will drive away people who didn't run it cause it was too difficult. We just don't know, eh?
And if you care about your friends' gaming experience so much, maybe you should be honest with them and explain to them that LA weaving and AC are in no way required for those vet dungeons they fear. Why would you support their being misinformed rather than encourage them? Because it makes for a good argument?
Part of the reason people who don't care for the TES IP play this game is because of the combat system, whether you like that or not. It may suffer a lot of issues overall, but the fast pace is what appeals to a lot of people because of the contrast it has to other combat systems.
The 'high end vet community' being not welcoming is factually wrong. It's a silly, biased claim based on no facts. In the end, the proof is in the pudding: you attack people whose views on the combat system differ from yours with no shame, bit somehow in your mind manage to project your behavior onto others. And I don't even doubt that you've managed to delude yourself into not seeing that it's actually you doing it, and no one else.
Ha!
Face it. Skyrim, Oblivion and the other ES games are way more popular then eso. When they announced ES 6 everyone went nuts. And the only reason Greymoor is of interest to anyone is because of ES 5.
Maybe the game should be more like them if they want to attract players.
••••
No one will do the vet mode even if it’s turned down. Nightmare and the rewards that drop there will be the new “vet” just with a new name.
The wait times on the vet dungeons will also get longer further making them less attractive.
You are not adding more players to this content. You are just dividing the small amount of players doing this content into more pools.
Except in this case, unless you make the rewards exactly the same as nightmare, no one will be doing vet. And if you do make the rewards the same, the amount of people doing nightmare will go down to a few bored high end players. It’s lose-lose and a development resource waste.
If you want a higher success rate in dungeons, the combat system needs to be improved. Pure and simple.
Your trying to blame the road, when it’s the car we are driving is the problem.
The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games. It has nothing to do with better or worse. And there are legitimately a lot of people (more than I would have expected) that came here for the MMO, not the IP. There are multiplayer mods for the single player games if you want that (even Morrowind with its beyond broken combat ), but the combat style has no place in ESO.
Saying that no one would play a medium difficulty is just wrong. People have been asking for it, or for vet to be turned down for ages. The topic comes up again and again. Who are you to say people don't want that? If you think that people are happy with normal difficulty as it is and no medium at all, why are you even discussing this? Why not keep your AC debate in a relevant thread then? Whether a potential nightmare mode is called vet, or the name vet gets tied to the new medium difficulty honestly makes little difference, outside of some small psychological aspects for marketing to worry about. And while I know some disagree, I think a hardcore difficulty tier shouldn't have extra special rewards. It just sends us back to the accessibility/exclusivity issue. The difficulty should be there just for the sake of enjoyment and challenge.
You have a horribly skewed and biased perspective that ignores facts and reason, and I really suggest you read the very insightful points others have brought up early in the thread and take them seriously. You will not get anywhere unless you face the facts and allow yourself to be more honest about how all of this works. The fact that you're refusing to accept actual facts and things that play into this thing is what makes your points come off as so moot, you know? If you can't acknowledge even the most obvious things, how can anyone take what you say seriously? You don't have to deny everything to bring counter points... But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements.
Fallout 76's combat (a MMO) plays exactly like fallout 4 except vats is a bit tweaked. If you have played fallout 4 for any length of time, the look and feel of combat in fallout 76 is exactly the same.
Well thank god no one said that, I guess!Saying "It's a mmo so it has to be different" is a cop out.
It sure would be something people always asked for and it sure would be an MMO. It also doesn't really change anything about ESO and the fact that they chose not to design it that way.If Bethesda announced "Same old Skyrim, but with friends!" the sales would be through the roof and we all know this, and that would count as a MMO. And the combat system would not have to be changed, at all.
You are 100% going to attract people with a medium difficulty. You are literally ignoring people ASKING FOR THIS FEATURE to remain wilfully ignorant. Literally no one suggested normal and vet should give out the same rewards -- why should they? No one suggested this. At all. And I just told you that I personally think that a hardcore/nightmare mode shouldn't offer better rewards for exactly that reason. Either don't read and don't respond, or read before you respond, please.You are not attracting more people with a medium difficulty. If vet gave out the same rewards as normal, no one would do vet, they would stay in normal mode. Making a harder "Nightmare" mode with better rewards will just have people asking for "Nightmare" mode to be made easier so they can do it to get those rewards.
What people want is a balancing of difficulty modes to provide better experiences for players as detailed in this thread. I will not type out a summary for you, it's right there for you to read. Again you ignore the part where a nightmare mode is supposed to exist solely for challenge and enjoyment. You're harping on counter arguments against nightmare mode having special drops when no one has said that it should, and the person you're rambling at (me) explicitly stated NOT wanting there to be better drops in nightmare. I'm sorry but genuinely, do you just love hearing yourself talk? Do you care at all about making sense and responding to things that have actually been said? Because it sounds like you're just imagining things you wish I said and then writing out your answers to those imaginations to me. I can't tell if you're just being purposefully obtuse now or if you're legitimately lost in your own world now.So what do you want? Just easier vet modes? Sure! Make them the same as normal for all I care. The main reason people do vet modes is to get the helmets, if a new nightmare mode were to be created with better helmets (or whatever) than people will stop doing vet and do a now harder version of vet (i.e. nightmare).
So what was the end result here? To rename vet into nightmare and make it even harder? Will the vet modes have different rewards, so people have to do both instead of doing one? is that really an answer?Anyway all of this comes back to a combat system that is poorly thought out and executed.
Make a more intuitive, friendlier combat system then more people will do activities that are combat related.
More people doing combat related activities then more people will start doing dungeons.
More people doing dungeons then more people familiar with the mechanics of dungeons and a higher success rate will happen.
All of it comes down to the various components of the issue that have been laid out in this thread. None of it comes down to the combat system you personally don't like. Changing the combat system is going to have 0 effect on the current difficulty balancing (or lack thereof) of content and the failure of the game to properly teach gameplay to players. Quite frankly nothing you say even has relevance to this topic. You're here fighting windmills.
They have to make a better combat system.I am sorry that this position somehow personally offends you in some way. (Which it clearly does.) But that I feel is the main issue. But lets begin..
"Well thank god no one said that, I guess!"The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games.It has nothing to do with better or worse.
This is you, is it not? Did I respond to someone else?
And just because ESO has a combat system in a particular way does not mean it cannot be changed.
I suppose there are people out there who decided one day to play a mmo, and did not choose WoW. And then randomly chose to play ES over other the mmo's by pure randomness. And then decided to stay long enough to start doing vet dungeons. I suppose there are people who fall into that category, I guess.
I am also guessing the amount of people who are playing because it is an ES game is a lot higher though. Look at ES legends or Blades, did you think people picked those up because of game play or because ES was in the title?
Do you think MORE people will start doing dungeons because of a medium difficulty? I don't think so. Do I think vet dungeons difficulty should be turned down? It does not bother me in the slightest either way. But combat is the core problem. People not understanding the combat system is just a cascading issue that flows into all combat related activities.Edited by BlueRaven on March 12, 2020 4:11PM0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ATreeGnome wrote: »Septimus_Magna wrote: »However I do know that 90% of the people on my friends list won't even attempt to do Vet content because they can't keep up with AC or light attack weaving.
Because the combat in this game is awful.
Question 1: why do they think you need AC/weaving to complete vet dungeons? You can literally place DOTs and heavy attack your way through 90% of the vet dungeons.
Question 2: why are you playing this game if you think the combat is so awful?
1) Burning down a boss and their adds is a lot easier with higher dps no matter what the mechanics. And yes, if there is a boss that requires the timely execution of adds then the AC/weaving ability of at least most of the dungeon participants is required.
Letting the adds who heal the boss stay up too long, or start overwhelming the boss encounter with their numbers are mechanics that can stop any low dps group in it's tracks, even if they knew the mechanics of the boss perfectly.
Yes, killing something quickly is almost always easier and requires more DPS. Yes, light attack weaving is one way to achieve higher DPS. But a dungeon being easier with more damage is a far cry from a dungeon being impossible or even nearly impossible to complete without animation canceling. You can get enough DPS without animation canceling to get through virtually everything in the game, especially non-hardmode vet dungeons, without animation canceling. It just a matter of if you are willing to build for it and put in the effort to learn a rotation. If someone is unwilling to learn to AC and unwilling to improve their build and unwilling to learn a rotation, then they won't have enough DPS and honestly shouldn't be doing vet content. Vet content is meant to be a challenge and to force players to improve. AC is one way to do that, yes, but you can get adequate DPS without it as long as you put in the effort to improve other things enough.
I don't understand. Are you saying the combat system is fine, it's the players that are the problem? Am I reading this correctly? Because the player base is not going to do ANYTHING that you suggested. They are not going to conform to what the developers WANT them to do. If the majority of players are not working/researching their builds now, wishful thinking is not going to change that.
Rather the developers should adapt (change) the combat system to something the players can better understand and actually do. Players will get better, if the game allows them to. Other then the Green-blue-purple system we have now, there are no real guides to help them. And if they keep balancing the combat abilities around AC and light attack weaving, the gap between top and bottom dps is just going to get wider. Which makes balancing vet content even harder.0 -
Shantu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭IMO, there are far more players of average ability in this game than elite players. As such, ZOS is missing the boat when it comes to offering medium tier combat. Far too many people encounter negative experiences with vet content (which can be humiliating for some) and just decide to avoid it. There would be more game immersion and engaging in content if there was a medium ground offered between what we currently call normal and vet.2 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭veteran content is literally less than 1% of the content in ESO. Group content is only like 5% of the game. The other 95% is accessible to everybody at any time at any level (since 1-Tam). Why can't there be some (very small) phase of the game that requires skill and work and effort to achieve?The Unshattered - Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - The Brilliant - Moth Trusted - The Just - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger70,730 achievement points5 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alright, I will be the one who throws the hand grenade.
The reason for the giant gap is animation canceling.
Normal is for the average player that can’t/won’t do AC and the vet content basically requires it.
And it’s horrible.
The current combat team is creating a two tier combat system and that is really disappointing. I remember back when the game began where the developers did not want to even allow dps meters and I wish they stuck to that commitment. The game would have been a lot more accessible. Now we have watered down abilities balanced around a mechanic that most modern combat video games would not touch with a ten foot pole.
This could not be further from the truth. AC has never been required for clearing any content in ESO. Not even close.
Further, we have had the ability to measure our own DPS for years. Well before Zos added the encounter logging. Also well before Zos started implementing their new vision for combat this past year.
I found it entertaining how Raisin noted you blew yourself up with that hand grenade.Alright, I will be the one who throws the hand grenade.
The reason for the giant gap is animation canceling.
Normal is for the average player that can’t/won’t do AC and the vet content basically requires it.
And it’s horrible.
The current combat team is creating a two tier combat system and that is really disappointing. I remember back when the game began where the developers did not want to even allow dps meters and I wish they stuck to that commitment. The game would have been a lot more accessible. Now we have watered down abilities balanced around a mechanic that most modern combat video games would not touch with a ten foot pole.
People have cleared vMoL HM when 30k DPS was considered godlike. Before all of the nerfs to the trial itself too. And these days you can hit 30k with three DoTs and a spammable while watching and admiring every frame of your character's animations. AC has nothing to do with dungeon diffuclty.
[Snip]
[Edited for baiting]
VMoL was created well before the AC madness that we have today. Does VSunspire require AC? What about the VScalebreaker dungeons? VMazz? VCoS?
Again, incorrect. AC has been around since the game launched. Zos has publicly blessed it early in the first year this game was released. One would have needed to ignore the forums and any guild that actually conversed to not be aware of AC before even vMoL was released.Edited by idk on March 12, 2020 4:43PM3 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Cool. And? Different games are different. Fallout was made on that principle, ESO wasn't./facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?
In the end all this will accomplish is taking resources away from the game to make content for an incredibly small minority of players.On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings.
So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with? You literally bolded this part, but apparently failed to read it. How would making vet EASIER cause people who didn't run it before cause of the difficulty spike stay away from vet even more? You think maybe if vet was easier they would maybe... Find it more accessible? Just maybe?
The reason a nightmare more would help is because it would push vet into being a medium difficulty tier. ZOS would avoid having to fail at designing vet in a way that appeases two kinds of players requiring vastly different dungeon experiences. It would allow ZOS the freedom to give everybody what they want, go full out with nightmare difficulty while balancing vet to please the large midtier bracket of players (most of which are being punished for the point they are at because they have often outgrown normal.)
Or maybe you're right and making vet easier will drive away people who didn't run it cause it was too difficult. We just don't know, eh?
And if you care about your friends' gaming experience so much, maybe you should be honest with them and explain to them that LA weaving and AC are in no way required for those vet dungeons they fear. Why would you support their being misinformed rather than encourage them? Because it makes for a good argument?
Part of the reason people who don't care for the TES IP play this game is because of the combat system, whether you like that or not. It may suffer a lot of issues overall, but the fast pace is what appeals to a lot of people because of the contrast it has to other combat systems.
The 'high end vet community' being not welcoming is factually wrong. It's a silly, biased claim based on no facts. In the end, the proof is in the pudding: you attack people whose views on the combat system differ from yours with no shame, bit somehow in your mind manage to project your behavior onto others. And I don't even doubt that you've managed to delude yourself into not seeing that it's actually you doing it, and no one else.
Ha!
Face it. Skyrim, Oblivion and the other ES games are way more popular then eso. When they announced ES 6 everyone went nuts. And the only reason Greymoor is of interest to anyone is because of ES 5.
Maybe the game should be more like them if they want to attract players.
••••
No one will do the vet mode even if it’s turned down. Nightmare and the rewards that drop there will be the new “vet” just with a new name.
The wait times on the vet dungeons will also get longer further making them less attractive.
You are not adding more players to this content. You are just dividing the small amount of players doing this content into more pools.
Except in this case, unless you make the rewards exactly the same as nightmare, no one will be doing vet. And if you do make the rewards the same, the amount of people doing nightmare will go down to a few bored high end players. It’s lose-lose and a development resource waste.
If you want a higher success rate in dungeons, the combat system needs to be improved. Pure and simple.
Your trying to blame the road, when it’s the car we are driving is the problem.
The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games. It has nothing to do with better or worse. And there are legitimately a lot of people (more than I would have expected) that came here for the MMO, not the IP. There are multiplayer mods for the single player games if you want that (even Morrowind with its beyond broken combat ), but the combat style has no place in ESO.
Saying that no one would play a medium difficulty is just wrong. People have been asking for it, or for vet to be turned down for ages. The topic comes up again and again. Who are you to say people don't want that? If you think that people are happy with normal difficulty as it is and no medium at all, why are you even discussing this? Why not keep your AC debate in a relevant thread then? Whether a potential nightmare mode is called vet, or the name vet gets tied to the new medium difficulty honestly makes little difference, outside of some small psychological aspects for marketing to worry about. And while I know some disagree, I think a hardcore difficulty tier shouldn't have extra special rewards. It just sends us back to the accessibility/exclusivity issue. The difficulty should be there just for the sake of enjoyment and challenge.
You have a horribly skewed and biased perspective that ignores facts and reason, and I really suggest you read the very insightful points others have brought up early in the thread and take them seriously. You will not get anywhere unless you face the facts and allow yourself to be more honest about how all of this works. The fact that you're refusing to accept actual facts and things that play into this thing is what makes your points come off as so moot, you know? If you can't acknowledge even the most obvious things, how can anyone take what you say seriously? You don't have to deny everything to bring counter points... But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements.
Fallout 76's combat (a MMO) plays exactly like fallout 4 except vats is a bit tweaked. If you have played fallout 4 for any length of time, the look and feel of combat in fallout 76 is exactly the same.
Well thank god no one said that, I guess!Saying "It's a mmo so it has to be different" is a cop out.
It sure would be something people always asked for and it sure would be an MMO. It also doesn't really change anything about ESO and the fact that they chose not to design it that way.If Bethesda announced "Same old Skyrim, but with friends!" the sales would be through the roof and we all know this, and that would count as a MMO. And the combat system would not have to be changed, at all.
You are 100% going to attract people with a medium difficulty. You are literally ignoring people ASKING FOR THIS FEATURE to remain wilfully ignorant. Literally no one suggested normal and vet should give out the same rewards -- why should they? No one suggested this. At all. And I just told you that I personally think that a hardcore/nightmare mode shouldn't offer better rewards for exactly that reason. Either don't read and don't respond, or read before you respond, please.You are not attracting more people with a medium difficulty. If vet gave out the same rewards as normal, no one would do vet, they would stay in normal mode. Making a harder "Nightmare" mode with better rewards will just have people asking for "Nightmare" mode to be made easier so they can do it to get those rewards.
What people want is a balancing of difficulty modes to provide better experiences for players as detailed in this thread. I will not type out a summary for you, it's right there for you to read. Again you ignore the part where a nightmare mode is supposed to exist solely for challenge and enjoyment. You're harping on counter arguments against nightmare mode having special drops when no one has said that it should, and the person you're rambling at (me) explicitly stated NOT wanting there to be better drops in nightmare. I'm sorry but genuinely, do you just love hearing yourself talk? Do you care at all about making sense and responding to things that have actually been said? Because it sounds like you're just imagining things you wish I said and then writing out your answers to those imaginations to me. I can't tell if you're just being purposefully obtuse now or if you're legitimately lost in your own world now.So what do you want? Just easier vet modes? Sure! Make them the same as normal for all I care. The main reason people do vet modes is to get the helmets, if a new nightmare mode were to be created with better helmets (or whatever) than people will stop doing vet and do a now harder version of vet (i.e. nightmare).
So what was the end result here? To rename vet into nightmare and make it even harder? Will the vet modes have different rewards, so people have to do both instead of doing one? is that really an answer?Anyway all of this comes back to a combat system that is poorly thought out and executed.
Make a more intuitive, friendlier combat system then more people will do activities that are combat related.
More people doing combat related activities then more people will start doing dungeons.
More people doing dungeons then more people familiar with the mechanics of dungeons and a higher success rate will happen.
All of it comes down to the various components of the issue that have been laid out in this thread. None of it comes down to the combat system you personally don't like. Changing the combat system is going to have 0 effect on the current difficulty balancing (or lack thereof) of content and the failure of the game to properly teach gameplay to players. Quite frankly nothing you say even has relevance to this topic. You're here fighting windmills.
They have to make a better combat system.I am sorry that this position somehow personally offends you in some way. (Which it clearly does.) But that I feel is the main issue. But lets begin..
"Well thank god no one said that, I guess!"The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games.It has nothing to do with better or worse.
This is you, is it not? Did I respond to someone else?
And just because ESO has a combat system in a particular way does not mean it cannot be changed.
I suppose there are people out there who decided one day to play a mmo, and did not choose WoW. And then randomly chose to play ES over other the mmo's by pure randomness. And then decided to stay long enough to start doing vet dungeons. I suppose there are people who fall into that category, I guess.
I am also guessing the amount of people who are playing because it is an ES game is a lot higher though. Look at ES legends or Blades, did you think people picked those up because of game play or because ES was in the title?
Do you think MORE people will start doing dungeons because of a medium difficulty? I don't think so. Do I think vet dungeons difficulty should be turned down? It does not bother me in the slightest either way. But combat is the core problem. People not understanding the combat system is just a cascading issue that flows into all combat related activities.
Many of the people that I know personally that play ESO have never played any of the TES games. WoW is a dated game and there are few good choices, so few that ESO is about the only choice for anyone looking for an MMO. Despite some of more endearing flaws, and some of the not-so-endearing ones, it is a good game and a logical choice.
FO76 is not an MMO as the server/instance cap is set to 24 players iirc. By comparison ESO is far more popular, so maybe FO76 should adopt ESO's combat?
Dungeons are anything but dead. I'm sure some do avoid them, in fact I know some that do not enjoy them at all, but the majority just avoid PUGs. The common denominator in PUGs is performing with random strangers, some of which have the manners of a mosquito.
Speaking as someone who primarily runs dungeons, almost exclusively vet, and mostly DLCs, getting a group isn't hard. My wait times when I PUG as a DD are 20 minutes or less most being around 12. In guilds it's not an issue at all finding someone to run the pledges.Tanking, as expected is nearly instant.
The failure rate, even in vet DLCs (non-HM) is much lower than the forums would have you believe. The minimum damage threshold isn't very high on nearly all non-HMs and can be achieved with without weaving light attacks at all.
2 -
ATreeGnome✭✭✭✭ATreeGnome wrote: »Septimus_Magna wrote: »However I do know that 90% of the people on my friends list won't even attempt to do Vet content because they can't keep up with AC or light attack weaving.
Because the combat in this game is awful.
Question 1: why do they think you need AC/weaving to complete vet dungeons? You can literally place DOTs and heavy attack your way through 90% of the vet dungeons.
Question 2: why are you playing this game if you think the combat is so awful?
1) Burning down a boss and their adds is a lot easier with higher dps no matter what the mechanics. And yes, if there is a boss that requires the timely execution of adds then the AC/weaving ability of at least most of the dungeon participants is required.
Letting the adds who heal the boss stay up too long, or start overwhelming the boss encounter with their numbers are mechanics that can stop any low dps group in it's tracks, even if they knew the mechanics of the boss perfectly.
Yes, killing something quickly is almost always easier and requires more DPS. Yes, light attack weaving is one way to achieve higher DPS. But a dungeon being easier with more damage is a far cry from a dungeon being impossible or even nearly impossible to complete without animation canceling. You can get enough DPS without animation canceling to get through virtually everything in the game, especially non-hardmode vet dungeons, without animation canceling. It just a matter of if you are willing to build for it and put in the effort to learn a rotation. If someone is unwilling to learn to AC and unwilling to improve their build and unwilling to learn a rotation, then they won't have enough DPS and honestly shouldn't be doing vet content. Vet content is meant to be a challenge and to force players to improve. AC is one way to do that, yes, but you can get adequate DPS without it as long as you put in the effort to improve other things enough.
I don't understand. Are you saying the combat system is fine, it's the players that are the problem? Am I reading this correctly? Because the player base is not going to do ANYTHING that you suggested. They are not going to conform to what the developers WANT them to do. If the majority of players are not working/researching their builds now, wishful thinking is not going to change that.
Rather the developers should adapt (change) the combat system to something the players can better understand and actually do. Players will get better, if the game allows them to. Other then the Green-blue-purple system we have now, there are no real guides to help them. And if they keep balancing the combat abilities around AC and light attack weaving, the gap between top and bottom dps is just going to get wider. Which makes balancing vet content even harder.
You're saying that the players who want to clear challenging content in a gear & ability centric MMORPG aren't going to work on and research their builds? And that it's silly to expect players to use the various tools (gear and abilities) that exist to try to become more powerful in the game? And that the challenging content in the game should be balanced around the players who have no interest in learning how to improve enough to clear it? And your solution to the problem of some players, who you say aren't interested in improving through the existing means, being unable to clear content which is meant to be challenging is to overhaul the combat system of a 6 year old game?1 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »
Cool. And? Different games are different. Fallout was made on that principle, ESO wasn't./facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?
In the end all this will accomplish is taking resources away from the game to make content for an incredibly small minority of players.On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings.
So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with? You literally bolded this part, but apparently failed to read it. How would making vet EASIER cause people who didn't run it before cause of the difficulty spike stay away from vet even more? You think maybe if vet was easier they would maybe... Find it more accessible? Just maybe?
The reason a nightmare more would help is because it would push vet into being a medium difficulty tier. ZOS would avoid having to fail at designing vet in a way that appeases two kinds of players requiring vastly different dungeon experiences. It would allow ZOS the freedom to give everybody what they want, go full out with nightmare difficulty while balancing vet to please the large midtier bracket of players (most of which are being punished for the point they are at because they have often outgrown normal.)
Or maybe you're right and making vet easier will drive away people who didn't run it cause it was too difficult. We just don't know, eh?
And if you care about your friends' gaming experience so much, maybe you should be honest with them and explain to them that LA weaving and AC are in no way required for those vet dungeons they fear. Why would you support their being misinformed rather than encourage them? Because it makes for a good argument?
Part of the reason people who don't care for the TES IP play this game is because of the combat system, whether you like that or not. It may suffer a lot of issues overall, but the fast pace is what appeals to a lot of people because of the contrast it has to other combat systems.
The 'high end vet community' being not welcoming is factually wrong. It's a silly, biased claim based on no facts. In the end, the proof is in the pudding: you attack people whose views on the combat system differ from yours with no shame, bit somehow in your mind manage to project your behavior onto others. And I don't even doubt that you've managed to delude yourself into not seeing that it's actually you doing it, and no one else.
Ha!
Face it. Skyrim, Oblivion and the other ES games are way more popular then eso. When they announced ES 6 everyone went nuts. And the only reason Greymoor is of interest to anyone is because of ES 5.
Maybe the game should be more like them if they want to attract players.
••••
No one will do the vet mode even if it’s turned down. Nightmare and the rewards that drop there will be the new “vet” just with a new name.
The wait times on the vet dungeons will also get longer further making them less attractive.
You are not adding more players to this content. You are just dividing the small amount of players doing this content into more pools.
Except in this case, unless you make the rewards exactly the same as nightmare, no one will be doing vet. And if you do make the rewards the same, the amount of people doing nightmare will go down to a few bored high end players. It’s lose-lose and a development resource waste.
If you want a higher success rate in dungeons, the combat system needs to be improved. Pure and simple.
Your trying to blame the road, when it’s the car we are driving is the problem.
The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games. It has nothing to do with better or worse. And there are legitimately a lot of people (more than I would have expected) that came here for the MMO, not the IP. There are multiplayer mods for the single player games if you want that (even Morrowind with its beyond broken combat ), but the combat style has no place in ESO.
Saying that no one would play a medium difficulty is just wrong. People have been asking for it, or for vet to be turned down for ages. The topic comes up again and again. Who are you to say people don't want that? If you think that people are happy with normal difficulty as it is and no medium at all, why are you even discussing this? Why not keep your AC debate in a relevant thread then? Whether a potential nightmare mode is called vet, or the name vet gets tied to the new medium difficulty honestly makes little difference, outside of some small psychological aspects for marketing to worry about. And while I know some disagree, I think a hardcore difficulty tier shouldn't have extra special rewards. It just sends us back to the accessibility/exclusivity issue. The difficulty should be there just for the sake of enjoyment and challenge.
You have a horribly skewed and biased perspective that ignores facts and reason, and I really suggest you read the very insightful points others have brought up early in the thread and take them seriously. You will not get anywhere unless you face the facts and allow yourself to be more honest about how all of this works. The fact that you're refusing to accept actual facts and things that play into this thing is what makes your points come off as so moot, you know? If you can't acknowledge even the most obvious things, how can anyone take what you say seriously? You don't have to deny everything to bring counter points... But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements.
Fallout 76's combat (a MMO) plays exactly like fallout 4 except vats is a bit tweaked. If you have played fallout 4 for any length of time, the look and feel of combat in fallout 76 is exactly the same.
Well thank god no one said that, I guess!Saying "It's a mmo so it has to be different" is a cop out.
It sure would be something people always asked for and it sure would be an MMO. It also doesn't really change anything about ESO and the fact that they chose not to design it that way.If Bethesda announced "Same old Skyrim, but with friends!" the sales would be through the roof and we all know this, and that would count as a MMO. And the combat system would not have to be changed, at all.
You are 100% going to attract people with a medium difficulty. You are literally ignoring people ASKING FOR THIS FEATURE to remain wilfully ignorant. Literally no one suggested normal and vet should give out the same rewards -- why should they? No one suggested this. At all. And I just told you that I personally think that a hardcore/nightmare mode shouldn't offer better rewards for exactly that reason. Either don't read and don't respond, or read before you respond, please.You are not attracting more people with a medium difficulty. If vet gave out the same rewards as normal, no one would do vet, they would stay in normal mode. Making a harder "Nightmare" mode with better rewards will just have people asking for "Nightmare" mode to be made easier so they can do it to get those rewards.
What people want is a balancing of difficulty modes to provide better experiences for players as detailed in this thread. I will not type out a summary for you, it's right there for you to read. Again you ignore the part where a nightmare mode is supposed to exist solely for challenge and enjoyment. You're harping on counter arguments against nightmare mode having special drops when no one has said that it should, and the person you're rambling at (me) explicitly stated NOT wanting there to be better drops in nightmare. I'm sorry but genuinely, do you just love hearing yourself talk? Do you care at all about making sense and responding to things that have actually been said? Because it sounds like you're just imagining things you wish I said and then writing out your answers to those imaginations to me. I can't tell if you're just being purposefully obtuse now or if you're legitimately lost in your own world now.So what do you want? Just easier vet modes? Sure! Make them the same as normal for all I care. The main reason people do vet modes is to get the helmets, if a new nightmare mode were to be created with better helmets (or whatever) than people will stop doing vet and do a now harder version of vet (i.e. nightmare).
So what was the end result here? To rename vet into nightmare and make it even harder? Will the vet modes have different rewards, so people have to do both instead of doing one? is that really an answer?Anyway all of this comes back to a combat system that is poorly thought out and executed.
Make a more intuitive, friendlier combat system then more people will do activities that are combat related.
More people doing combat related activities then more people will start doing dungeons.
More people doing dungeons then more people familiar with the mechanics of dungeons and a higher success rate will happen.
All of it comes down to the various components of the issue that have been laid out in this thread. None of it comes down to the combat system you personally don't like. Changing the combat system is going to have 0 effect on the current difficulty balancing (or lack thereof) of content and the failure of the game to properly teach gameplay to players. Quite frankly nothing you say even has relevance to this topic. You're here fighting windmills.
They have to make a better combat system.I am sorry that this position somehow personally offends you in some way. (Which it clearly does.) But that I feel is the main issue. But lets begin..
"Well thank god no one said that, I guess!"The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games.It has nothing to do with better or worse.
This is you, is it not? Did I respond to someone else?
And just because ESO has a combat system in a particular way does not mean it cannot be changed.
I suppose there are people out there who decided one day to play a mmo, and did not choose WoW. And then randomly chose to play ES over other the mmo's by pure randomness. And then decided to stay long enough to start doing vet dungeons. I suppose there are people who fall into that category, I guess.
I am also guessing the amount of people who are playing because it is an ES game is a lot higher though. Look at ES legends or Blades, did you think people picked those up because of game play or because ES was in the title?
Do you think MORE people will start doing dungeons because of a medium difficulty? I don't think so. Do I think vet dungeons difficulty should be turned down? It does not bother me in the slightest either way. But combat is the core problem. People not understanding the combat system is just a cascading issue that flows into all combat related activities.
Many of the people that I know personally that play ESO have never played any of the TES games. WoW is a dated game and there are few good choices, so few that ESO is about the only choice for anyone looking for an MMO. Despite some of more endearing flaws, and some of the not-so-endearing ones, it is a good game and a logical choice.
FO76 is not an MMO as the server/instance cap is set to 24 players iirc. By comparison ESO is far more popular, so maybe FO76 should adopt ESO's combat?
Dungeons are anything but dead. I'm sure some do avoid them, in fact I know some that do not enjoy them at all, but the majority just avoid PUGs. The common denominator in PUGs is performing with random strangers, some of which have the manners of a mosquito.
Speaking as someone who primarily runs dungeons, almost exclusively vet, and mostly DLCs, getting a group isn't hard. My wait times when I PUG as a DD are 20 minutes or less most being around 12. In guilds it's not an issue at all finding someone to run the pledges.Tanking, as expected is nearly instant.
The failure rate, even in vet DLCs (non-HM) is much lower than the forums would have you believe. The minimum damage threshold isn't very high on nearly all non-HMs and can be achieved with without weaving light attacks at all.
Just checked twitch, fallout 76 has close to 6 times the amount of people watching then ESO does at this moment. So I am going to have to question your popularity supposition.
Dungeons capabilities are limited people to 4 players, trials to 12. Fighting a scorch beast the whole Fo76 server can participate. ESO has shards which also limit the amount of people in any one area. And Fallout 76 is a mmo, and steam agrees with me.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1151340/Fallout_76/
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Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Regardless of all the absolutely priceless entertainment this thread is providing, may I point out that...
Using Fallout 76 of all things as a positive example for anything gaming realted is a very self-defeating point.7 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agenericname wrote: »
Cool. And? Different games are different. Fallout was made on that principle, ESO wasn't./facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?
In the end all this will accomplish is taking resources away from the game to make content for an incredibly small minority of players.On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings.
So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with? You literally bolded this part, but apparently failed to read it. How would making vet EASIER cause people who didn't run it before cause of the difficulty spike stay away from vet even more? You think maybe if vet was easier they would maybe... Find it more accessible? Just maybe?
The reason a nightmare more would help is because it would push vet into being a medium difficulty tier. ZOS would avoid having to fail at designing vet in a way that appeases two kinds of players requiring vastly different dungeon experiences. It would allow ZOS the freedom to give everybody what they want, go full out with nightmare difficulty while balancing vet to please the large midtier bracket of players (most of which are being punished for the point they are at because they have often outgrown normal.)
Or maybe you're right and making vet easier will drive away people who didn't run it cause it was too difficult. We just don't know, eh?
And if you care about your friends' gaming experience so much, maybe you should be honest with them and explain to them that LA weaving and AC are in no way required for those vet dungeons they fear. Why would you support their being misinformed rather than encourage them? Because it makes for a good argument?
Part of the reason people who don't care for the TES IP play this game is because of the combat system, whether you like that or not. It may suffer a lot of issues overall, but the fast pace is what appeals to a lot of people because of the contrast it has to other combat systems.
The 'high end vet community' being not welcoming is factually wrong. It's a silly, biased claim based on no facts. In the end, the proof is in the pudding: you attack people whose views on the combat system differ from yours with no shame, bit somehow in your mind manage to project your behavior onto others. And I don't even doubt that you've managed to delude yourself into not seeing that it's actually you doing it, and no one else.
Ha!
Face it. Skyrim, Oblivion and the other ES games are way more popular then eso. When they announced ES 6 everyone went nuts. And the only reason Greymoor is of interest to anyone is because of ES 5.
Maybe the game should be more like them if they want to attract players.
••••
No one will do the vet mode even if it’s turned down. Nightmare and the rewards that drop there will be the new “vet” just with a new name.
The wait times on the vet dungeons will also get longer further making them less attractive.
You are not adding more players to this content. You are just dividing the small amount of players doing this content into more pools.
Except in this case, unless you make the rewards exactly the same as nightmare, no one will be doing vet. And if you do make the rewards the same, the amount of people doing nightmare will go down to a few bored high end players. It’s lose-lose and a development resource waste.
If you want a higher success rate in dungeons, the combat system needs to be improved. Pure and simple.
Your trying to blame the road, when it’s the car we are driving is the problem.
The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games. It has nothing to do with better or worse. And there are legitimately a lot of people (more than I would have expected) that came here for the MMO, not the IP. There are multiplayer mods for the single player games if you want that (even Morrowind with its beyond broken combat ), but the combat style has no place in ESO.
Saying that no one would play a medium difficulty is just wrong. People have been asking for it, or for vet to be turned down for ages. The topic comes up again and again. Who are you to say people don't want that? If you think that people are happy with normal difficulty as it is and no medium at all, why are you even discussing this? Why not keep your AC debate in a relevant thread then? Whether a potential nightmare mode is called vet, or the name vet gets tied to the new medium difficulty honestly makes little difference, outside of some small psychological aspects for marketing to worry about. And while I know some disagree, I think a hardcore difficulty tier shouldn't have extra special rewards. It just sends us back to the accessibility/exclusivity issue. The difficulty should be there just for the sake of enjoyment and challenge.
You have a horribly skewed and biased perspective that ignores facts and reason, and I really suggest you read the very insightful points others have brought up early in the thread and take them seriously. You will not get anywhere unless you face the facts and allow yourself to be more honest about how all of this works. The fact that you're refusing to accept actual facts and things that play into this thing is what makes your points come off as so moot, you know? If you can't acknowledge even the most obvious things, how can anyone take what you say seriously? You don't have to deny everything to bring counter points... But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements.
Fallout 76's combat (a MMO) plays exactly like fallout 4 except vats is a bit tweaked. If you have played fallout 4 for any length of time, the look and feel of combat in fallout 76 is exactly the same.
Well thank god no one said that, I guess!Saying "It's a mmo so it has to be different" is a cop out.
It sure would be something people always asked for and it sure would be an MMO. It also doesn't really change anything about ESO and the fact that they chose not to design it that way.If Bethesda announced "Same old Skyrim, but with friends!" the sales would be through the roof and we all know this, and that would count as a MMO. And the combat system would not have to be changed, at all.
You are 100% going to attract people with a medium difficulty. You are literally ignoring people ASKING FOR THIS FEATURE to remain wilfully ignorant. Literally no one suggested normal and vet should give out the same rewards -- why should they? No one suggested this. At all. And I just told you that I personally think that a hardcore/nightmare mode shouldn't offer better rewards for exactly that reason. Either don't read and don't respond, or read before you respond, please.You are not attracting more people with a medium difficulty. If vet gave out the same rewards as normal, no one would do vet, they would stay in normal mode. Making a harder "Nightmare" mode with better rewards will just have people asking for "Nightmare" mode to be made easier so they can do it to get those rewards.
What people want is a balancing of difficulty modes to provide better experiences for players as detailed in this thread. I will not type out a summary for you, it's right there for you to read. Again you ignore the part where a nightmare mode is supposed to exist solely for challenge and enjoyment. You're harping on counter arguments against nightmare mode having special drops when no one has said that it should, and the person you're rambling at (me) explicitly stated NOT wanting there to be better drops in nightmare. I'm sorry but genuinely, do you just love hearing yourself talk? Do you care at all about making sense and responding to things that have actually been said? Because it sounds like you're just imagining things you wish I said and then writing out your answers to those imaginations to me. I can't tell if you're just being purposefully obtuse now or if you're legitimately lost in your own world now.So what do you want? Just easier vet modes? Sure! Make them the same as normal for all I care. The main reason people do vet modes is to get the helmets, if a new nightmare mode were to be created with better helmets (or whatever) than people will stop doing vet and do a now harder version of vet (i.e. nightmare).
So what was the end result here? To rename vet into nightmare and make it even harder? Will the vet modes have different rewards, so people have to do both instead of doing one? is that really an answer?Anyway all of this comes back to a combat system that is poorly thought out and executed.
Make a more intuitive, friendlier combat system then more people will do activities that are combat related.
More people doing combat related activities then more people will start doing dungeons.
More people doing dungeons then more people familiar with the mechanics of dungeons and a higher success rate will happen.
All of it comes down to the various components of the issue that have been laid out in this thread. None of it comes down to the combat system you personally don't like. Changing the combat system is going to have 0 effect on the current difficulty balancing (or lack thereof) of content and the failure of the game to properly teach gameplay to players. Quite frankly nothing you say even has relevance to this topic. You're here fighting windmills.
They have to make a better combat system.I am sorry that this position somehow personally offends you in some way. (Which it clearly does.) But that I feel is the main issue. But lets begin..
"Well thank god no one said that, I guess!"The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games.It has nothing to do with better or worse.
This is you, is it not? Did I respond to someone else?
And just because ESO has a combat system in a particular way does not mean it cannot be changed.
I suppose there are people out there who decided one day to play a mmo, and did not choose WoW. And then randomly chose to play ES over other the mmo's by pure randomness. And then decided to stay long enough to start doing vet dungeons. I suppose there are people who fall into that category, I guess.
I am also guessing the amount of people who are playing because it is an ES game is a lot higher though. Look at ES legends or Blades, did you think people picked those up because of game play or because ES was in the title?
Do you think MORE people will start doing dungeons because of a medium difficulty? I don't think so. Do I think vet dungeons difficulty should be turned down? It does not bother me in the slightest either way. But combat is the core problem. People not understanding the combat system is just a cascading issue that flows into all combat related activities.
Many of the people that I know personally that play ESO have never played any of the TES games. WoW is a dated game and there are few good choices, so few that ESO is about the only choice for anyone looking for an MMO. Despite some of more endearing flaws, and some of the not-so-endearing ones, it is a good game and a logical choice.
FO76 is not an MMO as the server/instance cap is set to 24 players iirc. By comparison ESO is far more popular, so maybe FO76 should adopt ESO's combat?
Dungeons are anything but dead. I'm sure some do avoid them, in fact I know some that do not enjoy them at all, but the majority just avoid PUGs. The common denominator in PUGs is performing with random strangers, some of which have the manners of a mosquito.
Speaking as someone who primarily runs dungeons, almost exclusively vet, and mostly DLCs, getting a group isn't hard. My wait times when I PUG as a DD are 20 minutes or less most being around 12. In guilds it's not an issue at all finding someone to run the pledges.Tanking, as expected is nearly instant.
The failure rate, even in vet DLCs (non-HM) is much lower than the forums would have you believe. The minimum damage threshold isn't very high on nearly all non-HMs and can be achieved with without weaving light attacks at all.
Just checked twitch, fallout 76 has close to 6 times the amount of people watching then ESO does at this moment. So I am going to have to question your popularity supposition.
Dungeons capabilities are limited people to 4 players, trials to 12. Fighting a scorch beast the whole Fo76 server can participate. ESO has shards which also limit the amount of people in any one area. And Fallout 76 is a mmo, and steam agrees with me.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1151340/Fallout_76/
Dungeons and trials are yes, but you're comparing apples to cornflakes.
How many can fight a world boss in ESO? SBQ is a world boss.
How many can run a vault in FO76?
Can you trade with more than 24 people at any given time regardless of the "shard?"
Can you speak with more than 24 using any ingame method?
Twitch isn't an indicator of how many people pay for or even play a game.2 -
Raisin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Ah yes, do please tell me that I'm personally offended. Surely you saying it will make it true and really support your arguments. Cheap fallacy for the win!
Cool. And? Different games are different. Fallout was made on that principle, ESO wasn't./facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?
In the end all this will accomplish is taking resources away from the game to make content for an incredibly small minority of players.On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings.
So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with? You literally bolded this part, but apparently failed to read it. How would making vet EASIER cause people who didn't run it before cause of the difficulty spike stay away from vet even more? You think maybe if vet was easier they would maybe... Find it more accessible? Just maybe?
The reason a nightmare more would help is because it would push vet into being a medium difficulty tier. ZOS would avoid having to fail at designing vet in a way that appeases two kinds of players requiring vastly different dungeon experiences. It would allow ZOS the freedom to give everybody what they want, go full out with nightmare difficulty while balancing vet to please the large midtier bracket of players (most of which are being punished for the point they are at because they have often outgrown normal.)
Or maybe you're right and making vet easier will drive away people who didn't run it cause it was too difficult. We just don't know, eh?
And if you care about your friends' gaming experience so much, maybe you should be honest with them and explain to them that LA weaving and AC are in no way required for those vet dungeons they fear. Why would you support their being misinformed rather than encourage them? Because it makes for a good argument?
Part of the reason people who don't care for the TES IP play this game is because of the combat system, whether you like that or not. It may suffer a lot of issues overall, but the fast pace is what appeals to a lot of people because of the contrast it has to other combat systems.
The 'high end vet community' being not welcoming is factually wrong. It's a silly, biased claim based on no facts. In the end, the proof is in the pudding: you attack people whose views on the combat system differ from yours with no shame, bit somehow in your mind manage to project your behavior onto others. And I don't even doubt that you've managed to delude yourself into not seeing that it's actually you doing it, and no one else.
Ha!
Face it. Skyrim, Oblivion and the other ES games are way more popular then eso. When they announced ES 6 everyone went nuts. And the only reason Greymoor is of interest to anyone is because of ES 5.
Maybe the game should be more like them if they want to attract players.
••••
No one will do the vet mode even if it’s turned down. Nightmare and the rewards that drop there will be the new “vet” just with a new name.
The wait times on the vet dungeons will also get longer further making them less attractive.
You are not adding more players to this content. You are just dividing the small amount of players doing this content into more pools.
Except in this case, unless you make the rewards exactly the same as nightmare, no one will be doing vet. And if you do make the rewards the same, the amount of people doing nightmare will go down to a few bored high end players. It’s lose-lose and a development resource waste.
If you want a higher success rate in dungeons, the combat system needs to be improved. Pure and simple.
Your trying to blame the road, when it’s the car we are driving is the problem.
The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games. It has nothing to do with better or worse. And there are legitimately a lot of people (more than I would have expected) that came here for the MMO, not the IP. There are multiplayer mods for the single player games if you want that (even Morrowind with its beyond broken combat ), but the combat style has no place in ESO.
Saying that no one would play a medium difficulty is just wrong. People have been asking for it, or for vet to be turned down for ages. The topic comes up again and again. Who are you to say people don't want that? If you think that people are happy with normal difficulty as it is and no medium at all, why are you even discussing this? Why not keep your AC debate in a relevant thread then? Whether a potential nightmare mode is called vet, or the name vet gets tied to the new medium difficulty honestly makes little difference, outside of some small psychological aspects for marketing to worry about. And while I know some disagree, I think a hardcore difficulty tier shouldn't have extra special rewards. It just sends us back to the accessibility/exclusivity issue. The difficulty should be there just for the sake of enjoyment and challenge.
You have a horribly skewed and biased perspective that ignores facts and reason, and I really suggest you read the very insightful points others have brought up early in the thread and take them seriously. You will not get anywhere unless you face the facts and allow yourself to be more honest about how all of this works. The fact that you're refusing to accept actual facts and things that play into this thing is what makes your points come off as so moot, you know? If you can't acknowledge even the most obvious things, how can anyone take what you say seriously? You don't have to deny everything to bring counter points... But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements.
Fallout 76's combat (a MMO) plays exactly like fallout 4 except vats is a bit tweaked. If you have played fallout 4 for any length of time, the look and feel of combat in fallout 76 is exactly the same.
Well thank god no one said that, I guess!Saying "It's a mmo so it has to be different" is a cop out.
It sure would be something people always asked for and it sure would be an MMO. It also doesn't really change anything about ESO and the fact that they chose not to design it that way.If Bethesda announced "Same old Skyrim, but with friends!" the sales would be through the roof and we all know this, and that would count as a MMO. And the combat system would not have to be changed, at all.
You are 100% going to attract people with a medium difficulty. You are literally ignoring people ASKING FOR THIS FEATURE to remain wilfully ignorant. Literally no one suggested normal and vet should give out the same rewards -- why should they? No one suggested this. At all. And I just told you that I personally think that a hardcore/nightmare mode shouldn't offer better rewards for exactly that reason. Either don't read and don't respond, or read before you respond, please.You are not attracting more people with a medium difficulty. If vet gave out the same rewards as normal, no one would do vet, they would stay in normal mode. Making a harder "Nightmare" mode with better rewards will just have people asking for "Nightmare" mode to be made easier so they can do it to get those rewards.
What people want is a balancing of difficulty modes to provide better experiences for players as detailed in this thread. I will not type out a summary for you, it's right there for you to read. Again you ignore the part where a nightmare mode is supposed to exist solely for challenge and enjoyment. You're harping on counter arguments against nightmare mode having special drops when no one has said that it should, and the person you're rambling at (me) explicitly stated NOT wanting there to be better drops in nightmare. I'm sorry but genuinely, do you just love hearing yourself talk? Do you care at all about making sense and responding to things that have actually been said? Because it sounds like you're just imagining things you wish I said and then writing out your answers to those imaginations to me. I can't tell if you're just being purposefully obtuse now or if you're legitimately lost in your own world now.So what do you want? Just easier vet modes? Sure! Make them the same as normal for all I care. The main reason people do vet modes is to get the helmets, if a new nightmare mode were to be created with better helmets (or whatever) than people will stop doing vet and do a now harder version of vet (i.e. nightmare).
So what was the end result here? To rename vet into nightmare and make it even harder? Will the vet modes have different rewards, so people have to do both instead of doing one? is that really an answer?Anyway all of this comes back to a combat system that is poorly thought out and executed.
Make a more intuitive, friendlier combat system then more people will do activities that are combat related.
More people doing combat related activities then more people will start doing dungeons.
More people doing dungeons then more people familiar with the mechanics of dungeons and a higher success rate will happen.
All of it comes down to the various components of the issue that have been laid out in this thread. None of it comes down to the combat system you personally don't like. Changing the combat system is going to have 0 effect on the current difficulty balancing (or lack thereof) of content and the failure of the game to properly teach gameplay to players. Quite frankly nothing you say even has relevance to this topic. You're here fighting windmills.
They have to make a better combat system.I am sorry that this position somehow personally offends you in some way. (Which it clearly does.) But that I feel is the main issue. But lets begin..
That sure is me! So did you now realize your own mistake while re-reading or do you really need me to explain why 'ESO isn't Skyrim multiplayer' and 'an MMO HAS to be different because it's an MMO' are two different sentences expressing twoo different things?"Well thank god no one said that, I guess!"The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games.It has nothing to do with better or worse.
This is you, is it not? Did I respond to someone else?
It would require a complete redesign of the game. It's not just a small change, it would mean a complete overhaul of the entire concept of the core design. You can also take the latest Mario game and change it so it plays more like GTA. Doesn't mean it's a good or sensible idea. Also I just want to periodically remind you that this entire weird combat system debate has nothing to do with this thread's topic and isn't really a topic I'm interested in or have the strongest opinions about (other than the aforementioned 'fix it, don't scrap the whole game and choose something worse').And just because ESO has a combat system in a particular way does not mean it cannot be changed.I suppose there are people out there who decided one day to play a mmo, and did not choose WoW. And then randomly chose to play ES over other the mmo's by pure randomness. And then decided to stay long enough to start doing vet dungeons. I suppose there are people who fall into that category, I guess.
I am also guessing the amount of people who are playing because it is an ES game is a lot higher though. Look at ES legends or Blades, did you think people picked those up because of game play or because ES was in the title?
Believe it or not, ESO still has a good outside reputation and is considered one of the most worthwhile MMOs to play. Not an expert on any of that stuff, but you see it often enough. At least from an outside perspective it managed to make a name for itself as an MMO, unrelated of IP. Has nothing to do with randomness.
The amount of people playing it for the IP is certainly higher yes. But this matters why? It's relevant how? Doesn't negate the fact that there are people who value the fast paced (when servers allow) combat system.
Yes you've made it quite clear that you don't think so, despite the fact that there is proof against it which you choose to just ignore and never address. [snip]Do you think MORE people will start doing dungeons because of a medium difficulty? I don't think so. Do I think vet dungeons difficulty should be turned down? It does not bother me in the slightest either way. But combat is the core problem. People not understanding the combat system is just a cascading issue that flows into all combat related activities.
[edited for bashing and baiting]
Edited by ZOS_FalcoYamaoka on March 13, 2020 5:42PM2 -
Raisin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Regardless of all the absolutely priceless entertainment this thread is providing, may I point out that...
Using Fallout 76 of all things as a positive example for anything gaming realted is a very self-defeating point.
Yeah, I'm not sure FO76 is getting its twitch viewers because of how great the game is...3 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »
Cool. And? Different games are different. Fallout was made on that principle, ESO wasn't./facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?
In the end all this will accomplish is taking resources away from the game to make content for an incredibly small minority of players.On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings.
So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with? You literally bolded this part, but apparently failed to read it. How would making vet EASIER cause people who didn't run it before cause of the difficulty spike stay away from vet even more? You think maybe if vet was easier they would maybe... Find it more accessible? Just maybe?
The reason a nightmare more would help is because it would push vet into being a medium difficulty tier. ZOS would avoid having to fail at designing vet in a way that appeases two kinds of players requiring vastly different dungeon experiences. It would allow ZOS the freedom to give everybody what they want, go full out with nightmare difficulty while balancing vet to please the large midtier bracket of players (most of which are being punished for the point they are at because they have often outgrown normal.)
Or maybe you're right and making vet easier will drive away people who didn't run it cause it was too difficult. We just don't know, eh?
And if you care about your friends' gaming experience so much, maybe you should be honest with them and explain to them that LA weaving and AC are in no way required for those vet dungeons they fear. Why would you support their being misinformed rather than encourage them? Because it makes for a good argument?
Part of the reason people who don't care for the TES IP play this game is because of the combat system, whether you like that or not. It may suffer a lot of issues overall, but the fast pace is what appeals to a lot of people because of the contrast it has to other combat systems.
The 'high end vet community' being not welcoming is factually wrong. It's a silly, biased claim based on no facts. In the end, the proof is in the pudding: you attack people whose views on the combat system differ from yours with no shame, bit somehow in your mind manage to project your behavior onto others. And I don't even doubt that you've managed to delude yourself into not seeing that it's actually you doing it, and no one else.
Ha!
Face it. Skyrim, Oblivion and the other ES games are way more popular then eso. When they announced ES 6 everyone went nuts. And the only reason Greymoor is of interest to anyone is because of ES 5.
Maybe the game should be more like them if they want to attract players.
••••
No one will do the vet mode even if it’s turned down. Nightmare and the rewards that drop there will be the new “vet” just with a new name.
The wait times on the vet dungeons will also get longer further making them less attractive.
You are not adding more players to this content. You are just dividing the small amount of players doing this content into more pools.
Except in this case, unless you make the rewards exactly the same as nightmare, no one will be doing vet. And if you do make the rewards the same, the amount of people doing nightmare will go down to a few bored high end players. It’s lose-lose and a development resource waste.
If you want a higher success rate in dungeons, the combat system needs to be improved. Pure and simple.
Your trying to blame the road, when it’s the car we are driving is the problem.
The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games. It has nothing to do with better or worse. And there are legitimately a lot of people (more than I would have expected) that came here for the MMO, not the IP. There are multiplayer mods for the single player games if you want that (even Morrowind with its beyond broken combat ), but the combat style has no place in ESO.
Saying that no one would play a medium difficulty is just wrong. People have been asking for it, or for vet to be turned down for ages. The topic comes up again and again. Who are you to say people don't want that? If you think that people are happy with normal difficulty as it is and no medium at all, why are you even discussing this? Why not keep your AC debate in a relevant thread then? Whether a potential nightmare mode is called vet, or the name vet gets tied to the new medium difficulty honestly makes little difference, outside of some small psychological aspects for marketing to worry about. And while I know some disagree, I think a hardcore difficulty tier shouldn't have extra special rewards. It just sends us back to the accessibility/exclusivity issue. The difficulty should be there just for the sake of enjoyment and challenge.
You have a horribly skewed and biased perspective that ignores facts and reason, and I really suggest you read the very insightful points others have brought up early in the thread and take them seriously. You will not get anywhere unless you face the facts and allow yourself to be more honest about how all of this works. The fact that you're refusing to accept actual facts and things that play into this thing is what makes your points come off as so moot, you know? If you can't acknowledge even the most obvious things, how can anyone take what you say seriously? You don't have to deny everything to bring counter points... But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements.
Fallout 76's combat (a MMO) plays exactly like fallout 4 except vats is a bit tweaked. If you have played fallout 4 for any length of time, the look and feel of combat in fallout 76 is exactly the same.
Well thank god no one said that, I guess!Saying "It's a mmo so it has to be different" is a cop out.
It sure would be something people always asked for and it sure would be an MMO. It also doesn't really change anything about ESO and the fact that they chose not to design it that way.If Bethesda announced "Same old Skyrim, but with friends!" the sales would be through the roof and we all know this, and that would count as a MMO. And the combat system would not have to be changed, at all.
You are 100% going to attract people with a medium difficulty. You are literally ignoring people ASKING FOR THIS FEATURE to remain wilfully ignorant. Literally no one suggested normal and vet should give out the same rewards -- why should they? No one suggested this. At all. And I just told you that I personally think that a hardcore/nightmare mode shouldn't offer better rewards for exactly that reason. Either don't read and don't respond, or read before you respond, please.You are not attracting more people with a medium difficulty. If vet gave out the same rewards as normal, no one would do vet, they would stay in normal mode. Making a harder "Nightmare" mode with better rewards will just have people asking for "Nightmare" mode to be made easier so they can do it to get those rewards.
What people want is a balancing of difficulty modes to provide better experiences for players as detailed in this thread. I will not type out a summary for you, it's right there for you to read. Again you ignore the part where a nightmare mode is supposed to exist solely for challenge and enjoyment. You're harping on counter arguments against nightmare mode having special drops when no one has said that it should, and the person you're rambling at (me) explicitly stated NOT wanting there to be better drops in nightmare. I'm sorry but genuinely, do you just love hearing yourself talk? Do you care at all about making sense and responding to things that have actually been said? Because it sounds like you're just imagining things you wish I said and then writing out your answers to those imaginations to me. I can't tell if you're just being purposefully obtuse now or if you're legitimately lost in your own world now.So what do you want? Just easier vet modes? Sure! Make them the same as normal for all I care. The main reason people do vet modes is to get the helmets, if a new nightmare mode were to be created with better helmets (or whatever) than people will stop doing vet and do a now harder version of vet (i.e. nightmare).
So what was the end result here? To rename vet into nightmare and make it even harder? Will the vet modes have different rewards, so people have to do both instead of doing one? is that really an answer?Anyway all of this comes back to a combat system that is poorly thought out and executed.
Make a more intuitive, friendlier combat system then more people will do activities that are combat related.
More people doing combat related activities then more people will start doing dungeons.
More people doing dungeons then more people familiar with the mechanics of dungeons and a higher success rate will happen.
All of it comes down to the various components of the issue that have been laid out in this thread. None of it comes down to the combat system you personally don't like. Changing the combat system is going to have 0 effect on the current difficulty balancing (or lack thereof) of content and the failure of the game to properly teach gameplay to players. Quite frankly nothing you say even has relevance to this topic. You're here fighting windmills.
They have to make a better combat system.I am sorry that this position somehow personally offends you in some way. (Which it clearly does.) But that I feel is the main issue. But lets begin..
"Well thank god no one said that, I guess!"The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games.It has nothing to do with better or worse.
This is you, is it not? Did I respond to someone else?
And just because ESO has a combat system in a particular way does not mean it cannot be changed.
I suppose there are people out there who decided one day to play a mmo, and did not choose WoW. And then randomly chose to play ES over other the mmo's by pure randomness. And then decided to stay long enough to start doing vet dungeons. I suppose there are people who fall into that category, I guess.
I am also guessing the amount of people who are playing because it is an ES game is a lot higher though. Look at ES legends or Blades, did you think people picked those up because of game play or because ES was in the title?
Do you think MORE people will start doing dungeons because of a medium difficulty? I don't think so. Do I think vet dungeons difficulty should be turned down? It does not bother me in the slightest either way. But combat is the core problem. People not understanding the combat system is just a cascading issue that flows into all combat related activities.
Many of the people that I know personally that play ESO have never played any of the TES games. WoW is a dated game and there are few good choices, so few that ESO is about the only choice for anyone looking for an MMO. Despite some of more endearing flaws, and some of the not-so-endearing ones, it is a good game and a logical choice.
FO76 is not an MMO as the server/instance cap is set to 24 players iirc. By comparison ESO is far more popular, so maybe FO76 should adopt ESO's combat?
Dungeons are anything but dead. I'm sure some do avoid them, in fact I know some that do not enjoy them at all, but the majority just avoid PUGs. The common denominator in PUGs is performing with random strangers, some of which have the manners of a mosquito.
Speaking as someone who primarily runs dungeons, almost exclusively vet, and mostly DLCs, getting a group isn't hard. My wait times when I PUG as a DD are 20 minutes or less most being around 12. In guilds it's not an issue at all finding someone to run the pledges.Tanking, as expected is nearly instant.
The failure rate, even in vet DLCs (non-HM) is much lower than the forums would have you believe. The minimum damage threshold isn't very high on nearly all non-HMs and can be achieved with without weaving light attacks at all.
Just checked twitch, fallout 76 has close to 6 times the amount of people watching then ESO does at this moment. So I am going to have to question your popularity supposition.
Dungeons capabilities are limited people to 4 players, trials to 12. Fighting a scorch beast the whole Fo76 server can participate. ESO has shards which also limit the amount of people in any one area. And Fallout 76 is a mmo, and steam agrees with me.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1151340/Fallout_76/
Dungeons and trials are yes, but you're comparing apples to cornflakes.
How many can fight a world boss in ESO? SBQ is a world boss.
How many can run a vault in FO76?
Can you trade with more than 24 people at any given time regardless of the "shard?"
Can you speak with more than 24 using any ingame method?
Twitch isn't an indicator of how many people pay for or even play a game.
If you don't like Fallout 76 being classified as an mmo then go argue it on the steam and fallout 76 forums. I showed you verification that it is an mmo. MMO's are not defined by your narrow classification.
How many can do a vet dungeon? Four? That seems way more limiting than 24.
The vault is going away so there goes that limiting factor.
Fallout 76 is classified as an mmo, as is ESO, and as is "Raid: Shadow Legends" even "Diablo Immortal" is an mmo.
https://blizzardwatch.com/2018/11/03/diablo-immortal-mmo/
MMO's are not defined by how many people can play with each other at any one time, just the ability for lots of players to potentially interact.0 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have a friend with rheumatoid arthritis and she physically can’t do some of the vet content on this game unless we carry her. The difference bn Vet and norm are evident. I love the vet content. I love the challenge of mechanics. But I am sad that players like her Will never complete the content unless they are carried to get achievements. 😢0 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭I kind of wish there was a system in place that allowed a player like her to attain the achievements and complete the content. I just don’t know what besides being carried.0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Ah yes, do please tell me that I'm personally offended. Surely you saying it will make it true and really support your arguments. Cheap fallacy for the win!
Cool. And? Different games are different. Fallout was made on that principle, ESO wasn't./facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?
In the end all this will accomplish is taking resources away from the game to make content for an incredibly small minority of players.On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings.
So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with? You literally bolded this part, but apparently failed to read it. How would making vet EASIER cause people who didn't run it before cause of the difficulty spike stay away from vet even more? You think maybe if vet was easier they would maybe... Find it more accessible? Just maybe?
The reason a nightmare more would help is because it would push vet into being a medium difficulty tier. ZOS would avoid having to fail at designing vet in a way that appeases two kinds of players requiring vastly different dungeon experiences. It would allow ZOS the freedom to give everybody what they want, go full out with nightmare difficulty while balancing vet to please the large midtier bracket of players (most of which are being punished for the point they are at because they have often outgrown normal.)
Or maybe you're right and making vet easier will drive away people who didn't run it cause it was too difficult. We just don't know, eh?
And if you care about your friends' gaming experience so much, maybe you should be honest with them and explain to them that LA weaving and AC are in no way required for those vet dungeons they fear. Why would you support their being misinformed rather than encourage them? Because it makes for a good argument?
Part of the reason people who don't care for the TES IP play this game is because of the combat system, whether you like that or not. It may suffer a lot of issues overall, but the fast pace is what appeals to a lot of people because of the contrast it has to other combat systems.
The 'high end vet community' being not welcoming is factually wrong. It's a silly, biased claim based on no facts. In the end, the proof is in the pudding: you attack people whose views on the combat system differ from yours with no shame, bit somehow in your mind manage to project your behavior onto others. And I don't even doubt that you've managed to delude yourself into not seeing that it's actually you doing it, and no one else.
Ha!
Face it. Skyrim, Oblivion and the other ES games are way more popular then eso. When they announced ES 6 everyone went nuts. And the only reason Greymoor is of interest to anyone is because of ES 5.
Maybe the game should be more like them if they want to attract players.
••••
No one will do the vet mode even if it’s turned down. Nightmare and the rewards that drop there will be the new “vet” just with a new name.
The wait times on the vet dungeons will also get longer further making them less attractive.
You are not adding more players to this content. You are just dividing the small amount of players doing this content into more pools.
Except in this case, unless you make the rewards exactly the same as nightmare, no one will be doing vet. And if you do make the rewards the same, the amount of people doing nightmare will go down to a few bored high end players. It’s lose-lose and a development resource waste.
If you want a higher success rate in dungeons, the combat system needs to be improved. Pure and simple.
Your trying to blame the road, when it’s the car we are driving is the problem.
The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games. It has nothing to do with better or worse. And there are legitimately a lot of people (more than I would have expected) that came here for the MMO, not the IP. There are multiplayer mods for the single player games if you want that (even Morrowind with its beyond broken combat ), but the combat style has no place in ESO.
Saying that no one would play a medium difficulty is just wrong. People have been asking for it, or for vet to be turned down for ages. The topic comes up again and again. Who are you to say people don't want that? If you think that people are happy with normal difficulty as it is and no medium at all, why are you even discussing this? Why not keep your AC debate in a relevant thread then? Whether a potential nightmare mode is called vet, or the name vet gets tied to the new medium difficulty honestly makes little difference, outside of some small psychological aspects for marketing to worry about. And while I know some disagree, I think a hardcore difficulty tier shouldn't have extra special rewards. It just sends us back to the accessibility/exclusivity issue. The difficulty should be there just for the sake of enjoyment and challenge.
You have a horribly skewed and biased perspective that ignores facts and reason, and I really suggest you read the very insightful points others have brought up early in the thread and take them seriously. You will not get anywhere unless you face the facts and allow yourself to be more honest about how all of this works. The fact that you're refusing to accept actual facts and things that play into this thing is what makes your points come off as so moot, you know? If you can't acknowledge even the most obvious things, how can anyone take what you say seriously? You don't have to deny everything to bring counter points... But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements.
Fallout 76's combat (a MMO) plays exactly like fallout 4 except vats is a bit tweaked. If you have played fallout 4 for any length of time, the look and feel of combat in fallout 76 is exactly the same.
Well thank god no one said that, I guess!Saying "It's a mmo so it has to be different" is a cop out.
It sure would be something people always asked for and it sure would be an MMO. It also doesn't really change anything about ESO and the fact that they chose not to design it that way.If Bethesda announced "Same old Skyrim, but with friends!" the sales would be through the roof and we all know this, and that would count as a MMO. And the combat system would not have to be changed, at all.
You are 100% going to attract people with a medium difficulty. You are literally ignoring people ASKING FOR THIS FEATURE to remain wilfully ignorant. Literally no one suggested normal and vet should give out the same rewards -- why should they? No one suggested this. At all. And I just told you that I personally think that a hardcore/nightmare mode shouldn't offer better rewards for exactly that reason. Either don't read and don't respond, or read before you respond, please.You are not attracting more people with a medium difficulty. If vet gave out the same rewards as normal, no one would do vet, they would stay in normal mode. Making a harder "Nightmare" mode with better rewards will just have people asking for "Nightmare" mode to be made easier so they can do it to get those rewards.
What people want is a balancing of difficulty modes to provide better experiences for players as detailed in this thread. I will not type out a summary for you, it's right there for you to read. Again you ignore the part where a nightmare mode is supposed to exist solely for challenge and enjoyment. You're harping on counter arguments against nightmare mode having special drops when no one has said that it should, and the person you're rambling at (me) explicitly stated NOT wanting there to be better drops in nightmare. I'm sorry but genuinely, do you just love hearing yourself talk? Do you care at all about making sense and responding to things that have actually been said? Because it sounds like you're just imagining things you wish I said and then writing out your answers to those imaginations to me. I can't tell if you're just being purposefully obtuse now or if you're legitimately lost in your own world now.So what do you want? Just easier vet modes? Sure! Make them the same as normal for all I care. The main reason people do vet modes is to get the helmets, if a new nightmare mode were to be created with better helmets (or whatever) than people will stop doing vet and do a now harder version of vet (i.e. nightmare).
So what was the end result here? To rename vet into nightmare and make it even harder? Will the vet modes have different rewards, so people have to do both instead of doing one? is that really an answer?Anyway all of this comes back to a combat system that is poorly thought out and executed.
Make a more intuitive, friendlier combat system then more people will do activities that are combat related.
More people doing combat related activities then more people will start doing dungeons.
More people doing dungeons then more people familiar with the mechanics of dungeons and a higher success rate will happen.
All of it comes down to the various components of the issue that have been laid out in this thread. None of it comes down to the combat system you personally don't like. Changing the combat system is going to have 0 effect on the current difficulty balancing (or lack thereof) of content and the failure of the game to properly teach gameplay to players. Quite frankly nothing you say even has relevance to this topic. You're here fighting windmills.
They have to make a better combat system.I am sorry that this position somehow personally offends you in some way. (Which it clearly does.) But that I feel is the main issue. But lets begin..
That sure is me! So did you now realize your own mistake while re-reading or do you really need me to explain why 'ESO isn't Skyrim multiplayer' and 'an MMO HAS to be different because it's an MMO' are two different sentences expressing twoo different things?"Well thank god no one said that, I guess!"The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games.It has nothing to do with better or worse.
This is you, is it not? Did I respond to someone else?
It would require a complete redesign of the game. It's not just a small change, it would mean a complete overhaul of the entire concept of the core design. You can also take the latest Mario game and change it so it plays more like GTA. Doesn't mean it's a good or sensible idea. Also I just want to periodically remind you that this entire weird combat system debate has nothing to do with this thread's topic and isn't really a topic I'm interested in or have the strongest opinions about (other than the aforementioned 'fix it, don't scrap the whole game and choose something worse').And just because ESO has a combat system in a particular way does not mean it cannot be changed.I suppose there are people out there who decided one day to play a mmo, and did not choose WoW. And then randomly chose to play ES over other the mmo's by pure randomness. And then decided to stay long enough to start doing vet dungeons. I suppose there are people who fall into that category, I guess.
I am also guessing the amount of people who are playing because it is an ES game is a lot higher though. Look at ES legends or Blades, did you think people picked those up because of game play or because ES was in the title?
Believe it or not, ESO still has a good outside reputation and is considered one of the most worthwhile MMOs to play. Not an expert on any of that stuff, but you see it often enough. At least from an outside perspective it managed to make a name for itself as an MMO, unrelated of IP. Has nothing to do with randomness.
The amount of people playing it for the IP is certainly higher yes. But this matters why? It's relevant how? Doesn't negate the fact that there are people who value the fast paced (when servers allow) combat system.
Yes you've made it quite clear that you don't think so, despite the fact that there is proof against it which you choose to just ignore and never address. Which is why it seems you're too in denial to be taken seriously. Your choosing of ignorance is absolutely astonishing, but unfortunate.Do you think MORE people will start doing dungeons because of a medium difficulty? I don't think so. Do I think vet dungeons difficulty should be turned down? It does not bother me in the slightest either way. But combat is the core problem. People not understanding the combat system is just a cascading issue that flows into all combat related activities.
"So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with?"
"Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while."
"But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements."
"Which is why it seems you're too in denial to be taken seriously."
"Ah yes, do please tell me that I'm personally offended. Surely you saying it will make it true and really support your arguments. Cheap fallacy for the win!"
Yes, by way of your continual personal insults, you do seem personally offended and I am not sure why.
In no way did I say making vet dungeons easier is a bad idea. I said making a new nightmare mode with an intermediate step of a vet mode is not going to solve anything. Make vet mode easier, sure, I don't care. But don't make a third set of dungeons because the middle dungeons will just get ignored. And it's a waste of development time and resources as the amount of people doing dungeons in general is really small.
I think (vet) dungeons can be made easier and more inviting by a better combat system. You think just by making the mechanics less punishing is a better idea. It's two sides of the same coin as I feel a better combat system will in turn make the mechanics less punishing.
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Raisin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »I kind of wish there was a system in place that allowed a player like her to attain the achievements and complete the content. I just don’t know what besides being carried.
Well, it depends on what her specific limitations are and what she considers being carried. She could definitely try a build/fulfill a role that allows for more room for error. That said, if it's reaction time and movement holding her back (i.e. not able to roll dodge, block, move away fast), there is kind of a ceiling of how far she can go in a game where that's an important part of game play. If it's about the achievements, I recommend trying to shift the focus. No matter how a group member performs, IMO there are no carries when you're with friends. It's about doing something together and doing your best, and achieving things as a group. Sorry if that's cheesy advice, but I definitely recommend focusing on the group effort and seeing which parts she can best do in a group to feel pride in her contribution.
I am not sure what ZOS could do other than offering different difficulties and her seeing which are doable for her.2 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Regardless of all the absolutely priceless entertainment this thread is providing, may I point out that...
Using Fallout 76 of all things as a positive example for anything gaming realted is a very self-defeating point.
I hate to break it to you but eso is not that highly rated either. So people in glass houses should not throw stones.
But there are only a few games that I have personal experience with that transitioned from a single player game to an mmo.
Basically this game, Fallout 76, and final fantasy are the only ones that comes to mind. And of the three ESO has strayed the farthest away in combat from it's roots which is unfortunate.
Close to six times the amount of people are watching F76 then ESO on twitch, six times. Let that sink in.
Just watching two community managers play low level toons in F76 on the Bethesda twitch gathers almost as many views as ESO Live which is usually filled with new info.
The ESO game show at Pax East, only had slightly more viewers then the rather obscure "CHAD: A Fallout 76 Story Podcast LIVE" for crying out loud.0 -
Hallothiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Twitch numbers is by no means an indication of how many people play the game, nor how ‘good’ the game is. Twitch numbers tell you how many people are watching Twitch. That’s all. (Anecdotally, people & guildmates rarely, if ever watch Twitch. Rather be actually playing.)
And ESO is actually rated quite highly. (Can’t get links, just do a bit of googling yourself)
But to get back to the ACTUAL TOPIC of the thread - yes, I would love an in-between version where the mechs can’t be avoided but don’t leave you frustrated (yeah I know ‘git gud’ - actually do most stuff on vet just prefer something i play for fun not to turn into a source of stress) For example, have absolutely NO idea of the mechs for last boss in vSS as group never bothered with them on normal 😕1 -
thadjarvis✭✭✭✭Some constructive thoughts:
For those struggling to figure out the damage part of combat search: Beginner Magicka Sorcerer DPS - "Apprentice" - Dragonhold. It's a build that does 58k and will still be in the 50s if you don't do any of the LA's and place Inner Light with a surge. That is absolutely enough damage to clear all non-hm vet (lots of HM too).
For those looking for a medium difficulty between Normal and Vet, there's a nice solution many employ. Do content short handed. If a DLC dungeon is too easy on normal but too hard on vet, run normal as a 2 player team. You'll learn mechanics too that way and learn better how not to die. If you couple that with an easy damage build (see above) you can then go clear the vet version.
Someone earlier brought up vMoL. Indeed, it's mechanics that stops clears. Honestly, if you are able and willing to run back-room and are fun to be around, heck I'd want you in the group no matter what your parse is. Few want to do it, and it too often falls onto the most experienced/highest DPS group members
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AlcastClass RepresentativeEdited by Alcast on March 13, 2020 7:07AMhttps://alcasthq.com - Alcasthq.com Builds & Guides
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Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Septimus_Magna wrote: »However I do know that 90% of the people on my friends list won't even attempt to do Vet content because they can't keep up with AC or light attack weaving.
Because the combat in this game is awful.
Question 1: why do they think you need AC/weaving to complete vet dungeons? You can literally place DOTs and heavy attack your way through 90% of the vet dungeons.
Question 2: why are you playing this game if you think the combat is so awful?
1) Burning down a boss and their adds is a lot easier with higher dps no matter what the mechanics. And yes, if there is a boss that requires the timely execution of adds then the AC/weaving ability of at least most of the dungeon participants is required.
Letting the adds who heal the boss stay up too long, or start overwhelming the boss encounter with their numbers are mechanics that can stop any low dps group in it's tracks, even if they knew the mechanics of the boss perfectly.
2) The combat system is awful, but combat is not the only reason to play this game. Shockingly, there are plenty of other activities in ESO other than group dungeons or pvp. For example, I am an officer in multiple trade guilds, and I like ES lore. (Although, it seems more and more to just not count ESO as a proper ES game with the liberties it is taking with the lore. But that is another topic.)
I know how to do vet content, but I also know a bad combat system when I see it. Combat in ESO could be so much better with meaningful abilities and a more intuitive flow, not the muddied mess that we have now.
1) Most fights get easier with high dps but not all of them, some boss mechanics are on a timer and some are triggered by the boss' health percentage. Some fights get very difficult if you have high dps because the mobs spawn too quick and you get overwhelmed. Knowing when to focus specific enemies, interrupt mobs or pace your dps is more important that pulling high dps in most cases.
There are a lot of misconceptions in regards what is considered good dps. When the dungeons were split between normal and veteran mode the top tier players were pulling 25-30k dps. Now any class in crafted purple gear and gold weapons should be able to pull 25k dps without problems. If you currently have trouble reaching 25k dps in a group dont blame AC/weaving because thats simply not the problem.
2) Fair enough, I would personally invest time in a game which has enjoyable gameplay but each his own.
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