The vast difference in difficulty from norm to vet.

Royaji · March 2020

BlueRaven wrote: »

Alright, I will be the one who throws the hand grenade.

The reason for the giant gap is animation canceling.

Normal is for the average player that can’t/won’t do AC and the vet content basically requires it.

And it’s horrible.

The current combat team is creating a two tier combat system and that is really disappointing. I remember back when the game began where the developers did not want to even allow dps meters and I wish they stuck to that commitment. The game would have been a lot more accessible. Now we have watered down abilities balanced around a mechanic that most modern combat video games would not touch with a ten foot pole.

People have cleared vMoL HM when 30k DPS was considered godlike. Before all of the nerfs to the trial itself too. And these days you can hit 30k with three DoTs and a spammable while watching and admiring every frame of your character's animations. AC has nothing to do with dungeon diffuclty.

[Snip]

[Edited for baiting]

tmbrinks · March 2020

BlueRaven wrote: »

Alright, I will be the one who throws the hand grenade.

The reason for the giant gap is animation canceling.

Normal is for the average player that can’t/won’t do AC and the vet content basically requires it.

And it’s horrible.

The current combat team is creating a two tier combat system and that is really disappointing. I remember back when the game began where the developers did not want to even allow dps meters and I wish they stuck to that commitment. The game would have been a lot more accessible. Now we have watered down abilities balanced around a mechanic that most modern combat video games would not touch with a ten foot pole.

Unequivocally false. AC is literally less than a 5% change in your dps (LA weaving is a whole different story), and will not impact your ability to complete vet DLC dungeons in any way, shape or form.

zaria · March 2020

I pugged an normal Scalecaller Peak run with an weak group on my healer, one was 48 none of the other two was above cp 160. Had run that dungeon many times on normal but not done vet at that time.
That was enlightening in that I had to treat it like an vet dungeon and follow mechanics as you do in vet, yes it was easier but group took loots of damage so I had to heal as crazy while trying to do as much dps as I could.
Told them I join them if they re-rolled another random normal, was farming Jorvuld's Guidance but none of their drops would be useful anyway and they was nice but we did it and learned a lot who helped me clearing vet later.

Generally I say normal DLC is in line with the easier vet dungeons, the hardest ones get into the unnumbered ones , this is shifted a bit in that the quality of players doing normal is lower than vet.

Indigogo · March 2020

Agree OP, I would love a middle ground.
I want to move onto vet content but I also won't PUG it. Too many bad experiences.

So I'm held back while I try and find the right people to play with.

I feel like when you've just left school and you're trying to get your first job but you can't get a job because you don't have experience but how do you get experience unless you have a job? 😅

BlueRaven · March 2020

Royaji wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Alright, I will be the one who throws the hand grenade.

The reason for the giant gap is animation canceling.

Normal is for the average player that can’t/won’t do AC and the vet content basically requires it.

And it’s horrible.

The current combat team is creating a two tier combat system and that is really disappointing. I remember back when the game began where the developers did not want to even allow dps meters and I wish they stuck to that commitment. The game would have been a lot more accessible. Now we have watered down abilities balanced around a mechanic that most modern combat video games would not touch with a ten foot pole.

People have cleared vMoL HM when 30k DPS was considered godlike. Before all of the nerfs to the trial itself too. And these days you can hit 30k with three DoTs and a spammable while watching and admiring every frame of your character's animations. AC has nothing to do with dungeon diffuclty.

[Snip]

[Edited for baiting]

VMoL was created well before the AC madness that we have today. Does VSunspire require AC? What about the VScalebreaker dungeons? VMazz? VCoS?

Look I don't care, if you want to bury your head and ask why you can't find groups that can clear this stuff when the answer is obvious, then go do what you do. But the amount of people doing these dungeons is small, and if you want to grow that amount of people doing them it starts at the combat system, pure and simple.

But hey if you are a dps and what to wait a while for a group that AT BEST has a 50/50 shot at actually completing the DLC vet dungeon than congrats, the system is working just fine.

Ozby · March 2020

I agree with OP norms need to be scaled up slightly.

codierussell · March 2020

BlueRaven wrote: »

VMoL was created well before the AC madness that we have today. Does VSunspire require AC? What about the VScalebreaker dungeons? VMazz? VCoS?

Look I don't care, if you want to bury your head and ask why you can't find groups that can clear this stuff when the answer is obvious, then go do what you do. But the amount of people doing these dungeons is small, and if you want to grow that amount of people doing them it starts at the combat system, pure and simple.

But hey if you are a dps and what to wait a while for a group that AT BEST has a 50/50 shot at actually completing the DLC vet dungeon than congrats, the system is working just fine.

I mean you can do all vet trials with that kind of dps it just becomes a lot harder... I only animation cancel two skills each rotation and still hit 80k. Animation cancelling has been around since the launch of the game, block cancelling was a lot more used when the game first launched than now. ZOS has even said they want this to be part of the game because it makes the game more fluid and dynamic. If you hate the combat in the game so much why don't you just not play anymore?

ATreeGnome · March 2020

BlueRaven wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Alright, I will be the one who throws the hand grenade.

The reason for the giant gap is animation canceling.

Normal is for the average player that can’t/won’t do AC and the vet content basically requires it.

And it’s horrible.

The current combat team is creating a two tier combat system and that is really disappointing. I remember back when the game began where the developers did not want to even allow dps meters and I wish they stuck to that commitment. The game would have been a lot more accessible. Now we have watered down abilities balanced around a mechanic that most modern combat video games would not touch with a ten foot pole.

People have cleared vMoL HM when 30k DPS was considered godlike. Before all of the nerfs to the trial itself too. And these days you can hit 30k with three DoTs and a spammable while watching and admiring every frame of your character's animations. AC has nothing to do with dungeon diffuclty.

Stop blaming all of your failures and incompetence on one basic gameplay mechanic which is present in one form or another in most online videogames.

VMoL was created well before the AC madness that we have today. Does VSunspire require AC? What about the VScalebreaker dungeons? VMazz? VCoS?

Look I don't care, if you want to bury your head and ask why you can't find groups that can clear this stuff when the answer is obvious, then go do what you do. But the amount of people doing these dungeons is small, and if you want to grow that amount of people doing them it starts at the combat system, pure and simple.

But hey if you are a dps and what to wait a while for a group that AT BEST has a 50/50 shot at actually completing the DLC vet dungeon than congrats, the system is working just fine.

AC was most definitely a thing when vMoL came out and well before too. The only content that could be legitimately argued to actually "require" animation canceling in any capacity are the highest DPS checks, which is pretty much just Navi hard mode. Everything else in the game can certainly be completed without it with reasonable DPS as long as the players can properly do mechanics . Which is the entire point of this discussion - that less experienced player often don't have opportunities to learn vet mechanics. Animation canceling has nothing to do with it.

Deioth · March 2020

The fix is single player Story Mode. Provide players the option to pick the role they want and fill in the rest with Undaunted AI, but it is the player that has to engage in many of the mechanics, with some being specific based on their role if it is one that role is meant to handle. This way, players can be exposed to each mechanic and learn at their own pace. New voice over can be done by the Undaunted NPC party members to help explain further for each mechanic. Might take some work but I bet this would be well appreciated. Because normal can be burned so quick, it is hard to actually learn anything, and then Veteran slams you with a sledgehammer. The amount of people who need to learn obvious mechanics is too damn high.

dazee · March 2020

BlueRaven wrote: »

Alright, I will be the one who throws the hand grenade.

The reason for the giant gap is animation canceling.

Normal is for the average player that can’t/won’t do AC and the vet content basically requires it.

That's a very different stance from most people who defend AC. they say the difference in dps is not large. so which is it, is AC way OP and needs to be nerfed (in a way which does not change the feel of combat) or is it fine as is? it can't be both.

FierceSam · March 2020

Agenericname wrote: »

In SCP, and most other dungeons the mechanics are very similar if not exactly the same, just toned down a bit. You can learn most of the mechanics on normal, but in most cases groups will just heal through mistakes that would kill them in vet and continue to DPS.

I don't have anything against an additional tier of difficulty per se, but if it can be healed through without obeying the mechanics it will be.

Except they’re not.. nSCP, like many normal dungeons, entirely omits certain mechanics. So it’s not a case of the mechanics are there but the boss’s hit points are reduced, the mechanics aren’t there at all. You can play nSCP until you can do it blindfold, but that won’t prepare you for the poison in vSCP, or the added complexity introduced in the hard mode. Those will be entirely new to you and you’ll just have to learn how to deal with them effectively. And with vSCP, it’s not figuring out what the mechanic is that’s the issue, it’s actually dealing with a hugely fatal, randomly spawning mechanic that is both poorly indicated and allows almost no leeway to escape that is the frustrating thing.

Not sure what your healing argument is all about as, first, healing along with buffing and debuffing is a legitimate way of dealing with mechanics. It’s what healers do if they’re any good. And, second, the intermediate level of difficulty that would bridge the current chasm between normal and vet isn’t relevant for groups who can heal past vet mechanics - they’re already more than capable of dealing with vet dungeons as they are. It’s aimed at those players who are very competent at normal dungeons and want to make the step up to vet ones without feeling like they’re being repeatedly punched in the face by the school bully.

I was pleased to see normal Icereach seemed to be attempting to have mechanics that actually worked in a similar way as they did in the vet version. In particular the first giant boss. I hope this is something that continues.

His hammer blow that shatters growing ice atronarchs is a feature of both the normal and vet versions and can also be used in the hard mode to damage his summoning witch

FierceSam · March 2020

Ozby wrote: »

I agree with OP norms need to be scaled up slightly.

Except that’s not what OP says.

He says the difference between normal and vet dungeons is too great and argues there should be an additional ‘medium’ level to ease players into vet dungeon content.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO · March 2020

ATreeGnome wrote: »

[...] Which is the entire point of this discussion - that less experienced player often don't have opportunities to learn vet mechanics. Animation canceling has nothing to do with it.

Find a nice guild.

I have no experience with the console community in this game, because I'm on PC, but in all the "social" guilds I'm in, there is a nice mix of players at many different skill levels. Those who have more experience help and encourage less experienced players progress to harder content if they want to try it. Giving up and coming back later is always an option. We don't need any special incentive to do this -- we are doing it because it's fun. For me, the best moments in the game are when we clear content, at any level, with a group that is reasonably balanced and just barely up to the challenge. Sometimes one or two experienced persons pull more weight than the rest of the group, but usually everyone is useful, we learn as we go along, and everyone does their part just fine. Most importantly, everyone has fun.

Royaji · March 2020

FierceSam wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

In SCP, and most other dungeons the mechanics are very similar if not exactly the same, just toned down a bit. You can learn most of the mechanics on normal, but in most cases groups will just heal through mistakes that would kill them in vet and continue to DPS.

I don't have anything against an additional tier of difficulty per se, but if it can be healed through without obeying the mechanics it will be.

Except they’re not.. nSCP, like many normal dungeons, entirely omits certain mechanics. So it’s not a case of the mechanics are there but the boss’s hit points are reduced, the mechanics aren’t there at all. You can play nSCP until you can do it blindfold, but that won’t prepare you for the poison in vSCP, or the added complexity introduced in the hard mode. Those will be entirely new to you and you’ll just have to learn how to deal with them effectively. And with vSCP, it’s not figuring out what the mechanic is that’s the issue, it’s actually dealing with a hugely fatal, randomly spawning mechanic that is both poorly indicated and allows almost no leeway to escape that is the frustrating thing.

Pretty sure that all of SCP mechanics (outside of HM ones, since there is no normal HM) are there on both normal and vet. Same is true for most dungeons. There are some more noticeable mechanical diffrences between normal and vet trials though.

The poison cone also exists on normal. You just rarely notice it for two reasons: first, it's easy to keep on phasing the boss into ice simulacra mechanic before cone has time to appear (same can be done relatively easily on non-HM vet too) and second is that even if you do get a cone you won't get punished for standing in it. The cone fires, deals some damage, your healer heals it off immediately and that's it. Nothing happened. You didn't die. The mechanic can be easily ignored since it just does not kill you.

And that's a general problem with mechanics which do not involve boss invulnerability. If it's not going to one-shot you just take the damage, heal it off and keep on going.

Banana · March 2020

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

At this point I think they should make 4 difficulty settings and re-vamp all dungeons & DLC dungeons.
So we would have: Normal / Medium / Veteran / Hard Mode

And solo

code65536 · March 2020

akdave0 wrote: »

So the only way to learn mechs is through suffering and trial and error. Yes, you can read about it and I have, but there is a difference in that.

Okay, so how did the people who write the guides in the first place learn the mechanics?

Spoiler alert: We used trial and error too. Nobody tells us the mechanics. If I were to ask someone at ZOS to clarify how a mechanic works, the response that I'd get is that "it's player testable".

And you know what? That's a good thing. There are many players who insist on going into a new dungeon completely blind because they want to experience the joy of figuring things out for the first time.

Raisin · March 2020

code65536 wrote: »

akdave0 wrote: »

So the only way to learn mechs is through suffering and trial and error. Yes, you can read about it and I have, but there is a difference in that.

Okay, so how did the people who write the guides in the first place learn the mechanics?

Spoiler alert: We used trial and error too. Nobody tells us the mechanics. If I were to ask someone at ZOS to clarify how a mechanic works, the response that I'd get is that "it's player testable".

And you know what? That's a good thing. There are many players who insist on going into a new dungeon completely blind because they want to experience the joy of figuring things out for the first time.

In the end the disparity between the "I need a guide" and "I figured it out myself" players stems from that same issue of normal letting you bypass mechanics and never learn how the game works. Because trial and error for a lot of players used to run vet content doesn't necessarily mean wiping or anything drastic. The players that go into new vet dungeons blind are experienced enough to understand the game and its mechanics really well. They see patterns and similarities to old stuff, and they have the intuition to read new indicators and make reasonable guesses about what they mean. They're used to how the game works, have a vast understanding of their available toolkit and for them the game does seem to always push them into the right direction. If you're not used to this, you need to make sure you're not imagining these players suffering like you with trying to figure out seemingly random mechanics -- things make sense to them. Otherwise solving the mechanic-puzzles wouldn't be fun. Trial and error IMO means something very different to different groups of people here.
All of this goes back to the fact that so much content does absolutely jack as far as teaching players how the game and its mechanics goes. It's not just about specific mechanics, it's about the fact that most normal content doesn't help anyone gain an intuitive understanding and feeling of how to run dungeons/trials. That's why so many people only see new vet mechanics as something you have to either read up on, or suffer through endlessly. At the risk of sounding cheesy, many players just not very in-tune with what's going on in the game. The game doesn't teach this to people and it doesn't require it of them until suddenly it does.

Lysette · March 2020

Deioth wrote: »

The fix is single player Story Mode. Provide players the option to pick the role they want and fill in the rest with Undaunted AI, but it is the player that has to engage in many of the mechanics, with some being specific based on their role if it is one that role is meant to handle. This way, players can be exposed to each mechanic and learn at their own pace. New voice over can be done by the Undaunted NPC party members to help explain further for each mechanic. Might take some work but I bet this would be well appreciated. Because normal can be burned so quick, it is hard to actually learn anything, and then Veteran slams you with a sledgehammer. The amount of people who need to learn obvious mechanics is too damn high.

This is actually a great idea as it doesn't require someone else and being a noob to it isn't harming anyone's success. I think one of the reason people don't want to teach stuff is that they want to make progress instead to "waste time" on teaching someone else the ropes.And one of the reasons not even trying this kind of content is not wanting to ruin other people's enjoyment and success - so this is both-sided and your idea would really help with it.

Alcast · March 2020

Always fun to read when people use animation canceling as a scapegoat. Animation canceling isn't going to boost your dps by 300%, it's just an excuse for refusing to actually learn rotations and setting up characters properly. Animation canceling only makes a small difference in the end, the issue most of the times is that people that complain about low dps don't have: 1. Good rotations (biggest factor), 2 bad gear, 3. Don't Light Attack between each skill 4. CP not set correctly/ low CP.

On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings. However, that would actually require work on ZOS side and the question is, how big of an impact would it have in bringing in new players? Probably not a big one, so there aint $ to be made and therefore the incentive to make these changes isn't there.

What I don't understand about some people is, if you are playing an MMO and complain about having to trial and error, why do you even play a MMO? Isn't that what MMOs are all about?

Lysette · March 2020

Alcast wrote: »

Always fun to read when people use animation canceling as a scapegoat. Animation canceling isn't going to boost your dps by 300%, it's just an excuse for refusing to actually learn rotations and setting up characters properly. Animation canceling only makes a small difference in the end, the issue most of the times is that people that complain about low dps don't have: 1. Good rotations (biggest factor), 2 bad gear, 3. Don't Light Attack between each skill 4. CP not set correctly/ low CP.

On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings. However, that would actually require work on ZOS side and the question is, how big of an impact would it have in bringing in new players? Probably not a big one, so there aint $ to be made and therefore the incentive to make these changes isn't there.

What I don't understand about some people is, if you are playing an MMO and complain about having to trial and error, why do you even play a MMO? Isn't that what MMOs are all about?

A lot of people play it for the elder scrolls experience - the MMO part is for them just tolerated and basically ignored as good as it gets. A whole lot play it just like a single player game.

Dusk_Coven · March 2020

Basic mode should be changed to SOLO. That way you are forced to experience ALL the mechanics and get an introduction to them all before you try the added complications from Veteran. No Undaunted Key, no Group Finder -- players can literally just wander into one like they do a Public Dungeon.

Veteran should be the new normal for 4-man and where you get your Undaunted Key and Helm.

Hard Mode is where you get 2 keys as normal.

code65536 · March 2020

Lysette wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Always fun to read when people use animation canceling as a scapegoat. Animation canceling isn't going to boost your dps by 300%, it's just an excuse for refusing to actually learn rotations and setting up characters properly. Animation canceling only makes a small difference in the end, the issue most of the times is that people that complain about low dps don't have: 1. Good rotations (biggest factor), 2 bad gear, 3. Don't Light Attack between each skill 4. CP not set correctly/ low CP.

On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings. However, that would actually require work on ZOS side and the question is, how big of an impact would it have in bringing in new players? Probably not a big one, so there aint $ to be made and therefore the incentive to make these changes isn't there.

What I don't understand about some people is, if you are playing an MMO and complain about having to trial and error, why do you even play a MMO? Isn't that what MMOs are all about?

A lot of people play it for the elder scrolls experience - the MMO part is for them just tolerated and basically ignored as good as it gets. A whole lot play it just like a single player game.

Then play the 99% of the game that's solo-oriented.

Dusk_Coven · March 2020

Lysette wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

What I don't understand about some people is, if you are playing an MMO and complain about having to trial and error, why do you even play a MMO? Isn't that what MMOs are all about?

A lot of people play it for the elder scrolls experience - the MMO part is for them just tolerated and basically ignored as good as it gets. A whole lot play it just like a single player game.

Some people like trials and progression and really hard challenges.
But that's a really tiny fraction of the game content. In pretty much every game it's really just something to keep people busy spinning their hamster wheel while they make the next BIS gear and up the level cap to keep people spinning the hamster wheel even more and pay their subs because they "need" to chase gear and "achievements". They adjust the trials to keep it hard -- to keep people chasing stuff so hopefully they keep paying to grind.

A lot of people are busy doing everything else. When the story dries up they stop.
That's why the big announcement each year is not "the next new trial" foremost. It's a whole year of STORY that's basically done SOLO. Except the nonsense of putting story in Dungeon DLCs so no one can properly experience them, thanks to stupid mechanics like the first person who moves close triggers a cutscene that everyone else misses. The story team is completely out of touch with how players actually play and making mistakes other games have long since recognized and adjusted for.

code65536 · March 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

SOLO. That way you are forced to experience ALL the mechanics

Heavens forbid that someone adds mechanics that require gasp! teamwork in a multiplayer game.

If you want your solo content, great, you have 99% of the game devoted to that style of play. Stop trying to colonize the parts of the game that is tailored for people who like crazy radical things like... teamwork and spending time with other players.

Qbiken · March 2020

BlueRaven wrote: »

Alright, I will be the one who throws the hand grenade.

The reason for the giant gap is animation canceling.

Normal is for the average player that can’t/won’t do AC and the vet content basically requires it.

And it’s horrible.

The current combat team is creating a two tier combat system and that is really disappointing. I remember back when the game began where the developers did not want to even allow dps meters and I wish they stuck to that commitment. The game would have been a lot more accessible. Now we have watered down abilities balanced around a mechanic that most modern combat video games would not touch with a ten foot pole.

I´ve seen people clear veteran maelstrom arena and getting flawless without utilizing animation cancelling and I can assure you that it´s not a requirement to complete veteran content. The majority of veteran content have never been as accessible to the "avarage player" as it is today. Animation cancelling isn´t the issue.

My take of normal vs veteran difficulty isn´t that veteran is too difficult, but rather that normal difficulty is a bit "too easy" and doesn´t really prepare the player for the veteran version. While this might not be as obvious for the non-dlc dungeons and non-dlc trials, it becomes very obvious once you experience the DLC/Chapter dungeons and trials.

The problem isn´t the difficulty, but it can sometimes be difficult to find the right group of people with the right or similar mindset as yours. Once you find those players you´ll see that the game becomes a lot more accessible to a large majority of players.

Dusk_Coven · March 2020

code65536 wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

SOLO. That way you are forced to experience ALL the mechanics

Heavens forbid that someone adds mechanics that require gasp! teamwork in a multiplayer game.

If you want your solo content, great, you have 99% of the game devoted to that style of play. Stop trying to colonize the parts of the game that is tailored for people who like crazy radical things like... teamwork and spending time with other players.

Selectively quoting and ignoring the rest just makes your point irrelevant and makes you look like a fraud.

SWTOR has SOLO STORY mode to teach people the basic mechanics before they go into 4-team Veteran and it works brilliantly. In Veteran you learn additional mechanics to prepare you for Master Mode. It's a good progression that not only teaches mechanics but shows you what all roles need to do.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Basic mode should be changed to SOLO. That way you are forced to experience ALL the mechanics and get an introduction to them all before you try the added complications from Veteran. No Undaunted Key, no Group Finder -- players can literally just wander into one like they do a Public Dungeon.

Veteran should be the new normal for 4-man and where you get your Undaunted Key and Helm.

Hard Mode is where you get 2 keys as normal.

Raisin · March 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

What I don't understand about some people is, if you are playing an MMO and complain about having to trial and error, why do you even play a MMO? Isn't that what MMOs are all about?

A lot of people play it for the elder scrolls experience - the MMO part is for them just tolerated and basically ignored as good as it gets. A whole lot play it just like a single player game.

Some people like trials and progression and really hard challenges.
But that's a really tiny fraction of the game content. In pretty much every game it's really just something to keep people busy spinning their hamster wheel while they make the next BIS gear and up the level cap to keep people spinning the hamster wheel even more and pay their subs because they "need" to chase gear and "achievements". They adjust the trials to keep it hard -- to keep people chasing stuff so hopefully they keep paying to grind.

A lot of people are busy doing everything else. When the story dries up they stop.
That's why the big announcement each year is not "the next new trial" foremost. It's a whole year of STORY that's basically done SOLO. Except the nonsense of putting story in Dungeon DLCs so no one can properly experience them, thanks to stupid mechanics like the first person who moves close triggers a cutscene that everyone else misses. The story team is completely out of touch with how players actually play and making mistakes other games have long since recognized and adjusted for.

God forbid people play games to learn how to play them well and complete challenges and hard content. Almost like that's been a huge aspect of video games since the beginning of their existence and the point of a lot of them...
ZOS doesn't adjust trials or dungeons to 'keep them hard'. They nerf them continuously. That's pretty much the opposite.
And story belongs in all parts of the game. It's an MMO.
This thread has been a nice rational discussion of how to fix dungeon difficulty levels to give a great experience to all different kinds of players. No one has felt the need to dismiss other people's playstyles (well maybe the AC guy) and act like their preference is superior. Kindly take your aggression towards playstyles you don't like and go entertain yourself with it alone in a corner, away from where the respectful people are talking.

Dusk_Coven · March 2020

Raisin wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

What I don't understand about some people is, if you are playing an MMO and complain about having to trial and error, why do you even play a MMO? Isn't that what MMOs are all about?

A lot of people play it for the elder scrolls experience - the MMO part is for them just tolerated and basically ignored as good as it gets. A whole lot play it just like a single player game.

Some people like trials and progression and really hard challenges.
But that's a really tiny fraction of the game content. In pretty much every game it's really just something to keep people busy spinning their hamster wheel while they make the next BIS gear and up the level cap to keep people spinning the hamster wheel even more and pay their subs because they "need" to chase gear and "achievements". They adjust the trials to keep it hard -- to keep people chasing stuff so hopefully they keep paying to grind.

A lot of people are busy doing everything else. When the story dries up they stop.
That's why the big announcement each year is not "the next new trial" foremost. It's a whole year of STORY that's basically done SOLO. Except the nonsense of putting story in Dungeon DLCs so no one can properly experience them, thanks to stupid mechanics like the first person who moves close triggers a cutscene that everyone else misses. The story team is completely out of touch with how players actually play and making mistakes other games have long since recognized and adjusted for.

God forbid people play games to learn how to play them well and complete challenges and hard content. Almost like that's been a huge aspect of video games since the beginning of their existence and the point of a lot of them...
ZOS doesn't adjust trials or dungeons to 'keep them hard'. They nerf them continuously. That's pretty much the opposite.
And story belongs in all parts of the game. It's an MMO.

I didn't say it's not a valid type of playstyle. And I did point out it exists in many other games. I just point out the pattern I see in many games. Don't like that, too bad.
I also pointed out what proportion of games this type of content occupies, in support of what I quoted. If you want to pretend there's more than there is, you can leave your head stuck in the sand.
And I didn't specify how ZOS handles trials. Again it was a general observation of how the games I've experienced handle it. Read more carefully?

witchdoctor · March 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

The story team is completely out of touch with how players actually play and making mistakes other games have long since recognized and adjusted for.

In a choice between you and the story team, I am going to go with the story team as having actual, meaningful, quantifiable data on 'how [ESO] players actually play.'

FierceSam · March 2020

code65536 wrote: »

akdave0 wrote: »

So the only way to learn mechs is through suffering and trial and error. Yes, you can read about it and I have, but there is a difference in that.

Okay, so how did the people who write the guides in the first place learn the mechanics?

Spoiler alert: We used trial and error too. Nobody tells us the mechanics. If I were to ask someone at ZOS to clarify how a mechanic works, the response that I'd get is that "it's player testable".

And you know what? That's a good thing. There are many players who insist on going into a new dungeon completely blind because they want to experience the joy of figuring things out for the first time.

Totally agree. And that is part of the joy of new dungeons.

The sad thing is that this route becomes increasingly hard for newer players as the ‘experienced’ playerbase grows and you get more and more players who only want to do dungeons with those who have already done them.

However good they are, guides only give you an idea of what’s going to happen. You still need experience to master it.