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The vast difference in difficulty from norm to vet.
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Raisin✭✭✭✭✭
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Ah yes, do please tell me that I'm personally offended. Surely you saying it will make it true and really support your arguments. Cheap fallacy for the win!
Cool. And? Different games are different. Fallout was made on that principle, ESO wasn't./facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?
In the end all this will accomplish is taking resources away from the game to make content for an incredibly small minority of players.On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings.
So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with? You literally bolded this part, but apparently failed to read it. How would making vet EASIER cause people who didn't run it before cause of the difficulty spike stay away from vet even more? You think maybe if vet was easier they would maybe... Find it more accessible? Just maybe?
The reason a nightmare more would help is because it would push vet into being a medium difficulty tier. ZOS would avoid having to fail at designing vet in a way that appeases two kinds of players requiring vastly different dungeon experiences. It would allow ZOS the freedom to give everybody what they want, go full out with nightmare difficulty while balancing vet to please the large midtier bracket of players (most of which are being punished for the point they are at because they have often outgrown normal.)
Or maybe you're right and making vet easier will drive away people who didn't run it cause it was too difficult. We just don't know, eh?
And if you care about your friends' gaming experience so much, maybe you should be honest with them and explain to them that LA weaving and AC are in no way required for those vet dungeons they fear. Why would you support their being misinformed rather than encourage them? Because it makes for a good argument?
Part of the reason people who don't care for the TES IP play this game is because of the combat system, whether you like that or not. It may suffer a lot of issues overall, but the fast pace is what appeals to a lot of people because of the contrast it has to other combat systems.
The 'high end vet community' being not welcoming is factually wrong. It's a silly, biased claim based on no facts. In the end, the proof is in the pudding: you attack people whose views on the combat system differ from yours with no shame, bit somehow in your mind manage to project your behavior onto others. And I don't even doubt that you've managed to delude yourself into not seeing that it's actually you doing it, and no one else.
Ha!
Face it. Skyrim, Oblivion and the other ES games are way more popular then eso. When they announced ES 6 everyone went nuts. And the only reason Greymoor is of interest to anyone is because of ES 5.
Maybe the game should be more like them if they want to attract players.
••••
No one will do the vet mode even if it’s turned down. Nightmare and the rewards that drop there will be the new “vet” just with a new name.
The wait times on the vet dungeons will also get longer further making them less attractive.
You are not adding more players to this content. You are just dividing the small amount of players doing this content into more pools.
Except in this case, unless you make the rewards exactly the same as nightmare, no one will be doing vet. And if you do make the rewards the same, the amount of people doing nightmare will go down to a few bored high end players. It’s lose-lose and a development resource waste.
If you want a higher success rate in dungeons, the combat system needs to be improved. Pure and simple.
Your trying to blame the road, when it’s the car we are driving is the problem.
The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games. It has nothing to do with better or worse. And there are legitimately a lot of people (more than I would have expected) that came here for the MMO, not the IP. There are multiplayer mods for the single player games if you want that (even Morrowind with its beyond broken combat
), but the combat style has no place in ESO.
Saying that no one would play a medium difficulty is just wrong. People have been asking for it, or for vet to be turned down for ages. The topic comes up again and again. Who are you to say people don't want that? If you think that people are happy with normal difficulty as it is and no medium at all, why are you even discussing this? Why not keep your AC debate in a relevant thread then? Whether a potential nightmare mode is called vet, or the name vet gets tied to the new medium difficulty honestly makes little difference, outside of some small psychological aspects for marketing to worry about. And while I know some disagree, I think a hardcore difficulty tier shouldn't have extra special rewards. It just sends us back to the accessibility/exclusivity issue. The difficulty should be there just for the sake of enjoyment and challenge.
You have a horribly skewed and biased perspective that ignores facts and reason, and I really suggest you read the very insightful points others have brought up early in the thread and take them seriously. You will not get anywhere unless you face the facts and allow yourself to be more honest about how all of this works. The fact that you're refusing to accept actual facts and things that play into this thing is what makes your points come off as so moot, you know? If you can't acknowledge even the most obvious things, how can anyone take what you say seriously? You don't have to deny everything to bring counter points... But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements.
Fallout 76's combat (a MMO) plays exactly like fallout 4 except vats is a bit tweaked. If you have played fallout 4 for any length of time, the look and feel of combat in fallout 76 is exactly the same.
Well thank god no one said that, I guess!Saying "It's a mmo so it has to be different" is a cop out.
It sure would be something people always asked for and it sure would be an MMO. It also doesn't really change anything about ESO and the fact that they chose not to design it that way.If Bethesda announced "Same old Skyrim, but with friends!" the sales would be through the roof and we all know this, and that would count as a MMO. And the combat system would not have to be changed, at all.
You are 100% going to attract people with a medium difficulty. You are literally ignoring people ASKING FOR THIS FEATURE to remain wilfully ignorant. Literally no one suggested normal and vet should give out the same rewards -- why should they? No one suggested this. At all. And I just told you that I personally think that a hardcore/nightmare mode shouldn't offer better rewards for exactly that reason. Either don't read and don't respond, or read before you respond, please.You are not attracting more people with a medium difficulty. If vet gave out the same rewards as normal, no one would do vet, they would stay in normal mode. Making a harder "Nightmare" mode with better rewards will just have people asking for "Nightmare" mode to be made easier so they can do it to get those rewards.
What people want is a balancing of difficulty modes to provide better experiences for players as detailed in this thread. I will not type out a summary for you, it's right there for you to read. Again you ignore the part where a nightmare mode is supposed to exist solely for challenge and enjoyment. You're harping on counter arguments against nightmare mode having special drops when no one has said that it should, and the person you're rambling at (me) explicitly stated NOT wanting there to be better drops in nightmare. I'm sorry but genuinely, do you just love hearing yourself talk? Do you care at all about making sense and responding to things that have actually been said? Because it sounds like you're just imagining things you wish I said and then writing out your answers to those imaginations to me. I can't tell if you're just being purposefully obtuse now or if you're legitimately lost in your own world now.So what do you want? Just easier vet modes? Sure! Make them the same as normal for all I care. The main reason people do vet modes is to get the helmets, if a new nightmare mode were to be created with better helmets (or whatever) than people will stop doing vet and do a now harder version of vet (i.e. nightmare).
So what was the end result here? To rename vet into nightmare and make it even harder? Will the vet modes have different rewards, so people have to do both instead of doing one? is that really an answer?Anyway all of this comes back to a combat system that is poorly thought out and executed.
Make a more intuitive, friendlier combat system then more people will do activities that are combat related.
More people doing combat related activities then more people will start doing dungeons.
More people doing dungeons then more people familiar with the mechanics of dungeons and a higher success rate will happen.
All of it comes down to the various components of the issue that have been laid out in this thread. None of it comes down to the combat system you personally don't like. Changing the combat system is going to have 0 effect on the current difficulty balancing (or lack thereof) of content and the failure of the game to properly teach gameplay to players. Quite frankly nothing you say even has relevance to this topic. You're here fighting windmills.
They have to make a better combat system.I am sorry that this position somehow personally offends you in some way. (Which it clearly does.) But that I feel is the main issue. But lets begin..
That sure is me! So did you now realize your own mistake while re-reading or do you really need me to explain why 'ESO isn't Skyrim multiplayer' and 'an MMO HAS to be different because it's an MMO' are two different sentences expressing twoo different things?"Well thank god no one said that, I guess!"The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games.It has nothing to do with better or worse.
This is you, is it not? Did I respond to someone else?
It would require a complete redesign of the game. It's not just a small change, it would mean a complete overhaul of the entire concept of the core design. You can also take the latest Mario game and change it so it plays more like GTA. Doesn't mean it's a good or sensible idea. Also I just want to periodically remind you that this entire weird combat system debate has nothing to do with this thread's topic and isn't really a topic I'm interested in or have the strongest opinions about (other than the aforementioned 'fix it, don't scrap the whole game and choose something worse').And just because ESO has a combat system in a particular way does not mean it cannot be changed.I suppose there are people out there who decided one day to play a mmo, and did not choose WoW. And then randomly chose to play ES over other the mmo's by pure randomness. And then decided to stay long enough to start doing vet dungeons. I suppose there are people who fall into that category, I guess.
I am also guessing the amount of people who are playing because it is an ES game is a lot higher though. Look at ES legends or Blades, did you think people picked those up because of game play or because ES was in the title?
Believe it or not, ESO still has a good outside reputation and is considered one of the most worthwhile MMOs to play. Not an expert on any of that stuff, but you see it often enough. At least from an outside perspective it managed to make a name for itself as an MMO, unrelated of IP. Has nothing to do with randomness.
The amount of people playing it for the IP is certainly higher yes. But this matters why? It's relevant how? Doesn't negate the fact that there are people who value the fast paced (when servers allow) combat system.
Yes you've made it quite clear that you don't think so, despite the fact that there is proof against it which you choose to just ignore and never address. Which is why it seems you're too in denial to be taken seriously. Your choosing of ignorance is absolutely astonishing, but unfortunate.Do you think MORE people will start doing dungeons because of a medium difficulty? I don't think so. Do I think vet dungeons difficulty should be turned down? It does not bother me in the slightest either way. But combat is the core problem. People not understanding the combat system is just a cascading issue that flows into all combat related activities.
"So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with?"
"Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while."
"But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements."
"Which is why it seems you're too in denial to be taken seriously."
"Ah yes, do please tell me that I'm personally offended. Surely you saying it will make it true and really support your arguments. Cheap fallacy for the win!"
Yes, by way of your continual personal insults, you do seem personally offended and I am not sure why.
In no way did I say making vet dungeons easier is a bad idea. I said making a new nightmare mode with an intermediate step of a vet mode is not going to solve anything. Make vet mode easier, sure, I don't care. But don't make a third set of dungeons because the middle dungeons will just get ignored. And it's a waste of development time and resources as the amount of people doing dungeons in general is really small.
I think (vet) dungeons can be made easier and more inviting by a better combat system. You think just by making the mechanics less punishing is a better idea. It's two sides of the same coin as I feel a better combat system will in turn make the mechanics less punishing.
Well, the easy solution for you is to stop trying to pretend that I'm 'personally offended'. You are the master of your own mind. Just... stop deciding how other people feel, and the issue is gone. (Not gonna start quoting all the passive aggressive stuff you came in with)
"I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings. "
> "/facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?"
This was your reaction to making vet dungeons easier. Literally going on about what a bad idea it would be. You don't get to ignore that. If you quote people, you respond to what they say, you don't get to pretend they said something that better fits your answer. If vet dungeons are easier, they are easier. The fact that there is an actual hard difficulty for other players doesn't magically change that. And making vet dungeons easier without any other changes obviously isn't a viable solution. And, you know, there's a thread that goes into wonderful detail, where actually smart people have explained all this and detail and made wonderful arguments... But you haven't read that yet, because the only way you can hold onto your ignorance is by ignoring any proof of how wrong you are, so I guess reminding you again won't do much. It's astonishing how capable you are of only listening to your own little echo chamber and completely drowning out all truth and rational thought.
Anyway, here's a hilarious thing: This entire thread, including me, is full of people talking about how mechanics need to be more punishing (designed in a different way). So here you are, in this thread, talking to me, telling me that I think 'mechanics should be made less punishing'. That's how deluded you are. You are legitimately just looking at your screen, day-dreaming, imagining what you want people to say and then answering as if they had said the things you imagined. You don't even care what people say, you just... make up your own stuff. Why can't you do this in your room, alone, instead of bothering other people with it? It baffles me. I don't get the point. I mean it's not even just failed reading comprehension, it's like you're completely detached from reality. What purpose does a discussion serve to you if you can't even bother to read the things you quote? You're looking at a car saying 'that's not a car', just factually wrong, refusing to listen to reason. I don't get the point.
And I'm sorry, but your solution to difficulty balancing and the lack of teaching of gameplay ESO does is "less DPS". Because that's all AC is about -- it's a slight DPS increase. You're not even giving DPS to midtier players. Literally nothing will change for them. Endgame players will play a little more mechanic because they can't burst some things anymore. Nothing will change for everybody else. And bursting isn't even the standard, giving the skipping of mechanics. Lower DPS gives you a perfectly proper dungeon experience. It lets you clear completely fine, and arguably in a way more intended than people just nuking things. So a perceived lack of DPS isn't even an actual problem at all. You run the dungeon the way it's supposed to be run. Absolutely no issue at all as long as you play the mechanics. Is it that you want people with low DPS to nuke and skip the way high DPS folks do...?0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
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Ah yes, do please tell me that I'm personally offended. Surely you saying it will make it true and really support your arguments. Cheap fallacy for the win!
Cool. And? Different games are different. Fallout was made on that principle, ESO wasn't./facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?
In the end all this will accomplish is taking resources away from the game to make content for an incredibly small minority of players.On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings.
So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with? You literally bolded this part, but apparently failed to read it. How would making vet EASIER cause people who didn't run it before cause of the difficulty spike stay away from vet even more? You think maybe if vet was easier they would maybe... Find it more accessible? Just maybe?
The reason a nightmare more would help is because it would push vet into being a medium difficulty tier. ZOS would avoid having to fail at designing vet in a way that appeases two kinds of players requiring vastly different dungeon experiences. It would allow ZOS the freedom to give everybody what they want, go full out with nightmare difficulty while balancing vet to please the large midtier bracket of players (most of which are being punished for the point they are at because they have often outgrown normal.)
Or maybe you're right and making vet easier will drive away people who didn't run it cause it was too difficult. We just don't know, eh?
And if you care about your friends' gaming experience so much, maybe you should be honest with them and explain to them that LA weaving and AC are in no way required for those vet dungeons they fear. Why would you support their being misinformed rather than encourage them? Because it makes for a good argument?
Part of the reason people who don't care for the TES IP play this game is because of the combat system, whether you like that or not. It may suffer a lot of issues overall, but the fast pace is what appeals to a lot of people because of the contrast it has to other combat systems.
The 'high end vet community' being not welcoming is factually wrong. It's a silly, biased claim based on no facts. In the end, the proof is in the pudding: you attack people whose views on the combat system differ from yours with no shame, bit somehow in your mind manage to project your behavior onto others. And I don't even doubt that you've managed to delude yourself into not seeing that it's actually you doing it, and no one else.
Ha!
Face it. Skyrim, Oblivion and the other ES games are way more popular then eso. When they announced ES 6 everyone went nuts. And the only reason Greymoor is of interest to anyone is because of ES 5.
Maybe the game should be more like them if they want to attract players.
••••
No one will do the vet mode even if it’s turned down. Nightmare and the rewards that drop there will be the new “vet” just with a new name.
The wait times on the vet dungeons will also get longer further making them less attractive.
You are not adding more players to this content. You are just dividing the small amount of players doing this content into more pools.
Except in this case, unless you make the rewards exactly the same as nightmare, no one will be doing vet. And if you do make the rewards the same, the amount of people doing nightmare will go down to a few bored high end players. It’s lose-lose and a development resource waste.
If you want a higher success rate in dungeons, the combat system needs to be improved. Pure and simple.
Your trying to blame the road, when it’s the car we are driving is the problem.
The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games. It has nothing to do with better or worse. And there are legitimately a lot of people (more than I would have expected) that came here for the MMO, not the IP. There are multiplayer mods for the single player games if you want that (even Morrowind with its beyond broken combat ), but the combat style has no place in ESO.
Saying that no one would play a medium difficulty is just wrong. People have been asking for it, or for vet to be turned down for ages. The topic comes up again and again. Who are you to say people don't want that? If you think that people are happy with normal difficulty as it is and no medium at all, why are you even discussing this? Why not keep your AC debate in a relevant thread then? Whether a potential nightmare mode is called vet, or the name vet gets tied to the new medium difficulty honestly makes little difference, outside of some small psychological aspects for marketing to worry about. And while I know some disagree, I think a hardcore difficulty tier shouldn't have extra special rewards. It just sends us back to the accessibility/exclusivity issue. The difficulty should be there just for the sake of enjoyment and challenge.
You have a horribly skewed and biased perspective that ignores facts and reason, and I really suggest you read the very insightful points others have brought up early in the thread and take them seriously. You will not get anywhere unless you face the facts and allow yourself to be more honest about how all of this works. The fact that you're refusing to accept actual facts and things that play into this thing is what makes your points come off as so moot, you know? If you can't acknowledge even the most obvious things, how can anyone take what you say seriously? You don't have to deny everything to bring counter points... But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements.
Fallout 76's combat (a MMO) plays exactly like fallout 4 except vats is a bit tweaked. If you have played fallout 4 for any length of time, the look and feel of combat in fallout 76 is exactly the same.
Well thank god no one said that, I guess!Saying "It's a mmo so it has to be different" is a cop out.
It sure would be something people always asked for and it sure would be an MMO. It also doesn't really change anything about ESO and the fact that they chose not to design it that way.If Bethesda announced "Same old Skyrim, but with friends!" the sales would be through the roof and we all know this, and that would count as a MMO. And the combat system would not have to be changed, at all.
You are 100% going to attract people with a medium difficulty. You are literally ignoring people ASKING FOR THIS FEATURE to remain wilfully ignorant. Literally no one suggested normal and vet should give out the same rewards -- why should they? No one suggested this. At all. And I just told you that I personally think that a hardcore/nightmare mode shouldn't offer better rewards for exactly that reason. Either don't read and don't respond, or read before you respond, please.You are not attracting more people with a medium difficulty. If vet gave out the same rewards as normal, no one would do vet, they would stay in normal mode. Making a harder "Nightmare" mode with better rewards will just have people asking for "Nightmare" mode to be made easier so they can do it to get those rewards.
What people want is a balancing of difficulty modes to provide better experiences for players as detailed in this thread. I will not type out a summary for you, it's right there for you to read. Again you ignore the part where a nightmare mode is supposed to exist solely for challenge and enjoyment. You're harping on counter arguments against nightmare mode having special drops when no one has said that it should, and the person you're rambling at (me) explicitly stated NOT wanting there to be better drops in nightmare. I'm sorry but genuinely, do you just love hearing yourself talk? Do you care at all about making sense and responding to things that have actually been said? Because it sounds like you're just imagining things you wish I said and then writing out your answers to those imaginations to me. I can't tell if you're just being purposefully obtuse now or if you're legitimately lost in your own world now.So what do you want? Just easier vet modes? Sure! Make them the same as normal for all I care. The main reason people do vet modes is to get the helmets, if a new nightmare mode were to be created with better helmets (or whatever) than people will stop doing vet and do a now harder version of vet (i.e. nightmare).
So what was the end result here? To rename vet into nightmare and make it even harder? Will the vet modes have different rewards, so people have to do both instead of doing one? is that really an answer?Anyway all of this comes back to a combat system that is poorly thought out and executed.
Make a more intuitive, friendlier combat system then more people will do activities that are combat related.
More people doing combat related activities then more people will start doing dungeons.
More people doing dungeons then more people familiar with the mechanics of dungeons and a higher success rate will happen.
All of it comes down to the various components of the issue that have been laid out in this thread. None of it comes down to the combat system you personally don't like. Changing the combat system is going to have 0 effect on the current difficulty balancing (or lack thereof) of content and the failure of the game to properly teach gameplay to players. Quite frankly nothing you say even has relevance to this topic. You're here fighting windmills.
They have to make a better combat system.I am sorry that this position somehow personally offends you in some way. (Which it clearly does.) But that I feel is the main issue. But lets begin..
That sure is me! So did you now realize your own mistake while re-reading or do you really need me to explain why 'ESO isn't Skyrim multiplayer' and 'an MMO HAS to be different because it's an MMO' are two different sentences expressing twoo different things?"Well thank god no one said that, I guess!"The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games.It has nothing to do with better or worse.
This is you, is it not? Did I respond to someone else?
It would require a complete redesign of the game. It's not just a small change, it would mean a complete overhaul of the entire concept of the core design. You can also take the latest Mario game and change it so it plays more like GTA. Doesn't mean it's a good or sensible idea. Also I just want to periodically remind you that this entire weird combat system debate has nothing to do with this thread's topic and isn't really a topic I'm interested in or have the strongest opinions about (other than the aforementioned 'fix it, don't scrap the whole game and choose something worse').And just because ESO has a combat system in a particular way does not mean it cannot be changed.I suppose there are people out there who decided one day to play a mmo, and did not choose WoW. And then randomly chose to play ES over other the mmo's by pure randomness. And then decided to stay long enough to start doing vet dungeons. I suppose there are people who fall into that category, I guess.
I am also guessing the amount of people who are playing because it is an ES game is a lot higher though. Look at ES legends or Blades, did you think people picked those up because of game play or because ES was in the title?
Believe it or not, ESO still has a good outside reputation and is considered one of the most worthwhile MMOs to play. Not an expert on any of that stuff, but you see it often enough. At least from an outside perspective it managed to make a name for itself as an MMO, unrelated of IP. Has nothing to do with randomness.
The amount of people playing it for the IP is certainly higher yes. But this matters why? It's relevant how? Doesn't negate the fact that there are people who value the fast paced (when servers allow) combat system.
Yes you've made it quite clear that you don't think so, despite the fact that there is proof against it which you choose to just ignore and never address. Which is why it seems you're too in denial to be taken seriously. Your choosing of ignorance is absolutely astonishing, but unfortunate.Do you think MORE people will start doing dungeons because of a medium difficulty? I don't think so. Do I think vet dungeons difficulty should be turned down? It does not bother me in the slightest either way. But combat is the core problem. People not understanding the combat system is just a cascading issue that flows into all combat related activities.
"So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with?"
"Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while."
"But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements."
"Which is why it seems you're too in denial to be taken seriously."
"Ah yes, do please tell me that I'm personally offended. Surely you saying it will make it true and really support your arguments. Cheap fallacy for the win!"
Yes, by way of your continual personal insults, you do seem personally offended and I am not sure why.
In no way did I say making vet dungeons easier is a bad idea. I said making a new nightmare mode with an intermediate step of a vet mode is not going to solve anything. Make vet mode easier, sure, I don't care. But don't make a third set of dungeons because the middle dungeons will just get ignored. And it's a waste of development time and resources as the amount of people doing dungeons in general is really small.
I think (vet) dungeons can be made easier and more inviting by a better combat system. You think just by making the mechanics less punishing is a better idea. It's two sides of the same coin as I feel a better combat system will in turn make the mechanics less punishing.
Well, the easy solution for you is to stop trying to pretend that I'm 'personally offended'. You are the master of your own mind. Just... stop deciding how other people feel, and the issue is gone. (Not gonna start quoting all the passive aggressive stuff you came in with)
"I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings. "
> "/facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?"
This was your reaction to making vet dungeons easier. Literally going on about what a bad idea it would be. You don't get to ignore that. If you quote people, you respond to what they say, you don't get to pretend they said something that better fits your answer. If vet dungeons are easier, they are easier. The fact that there is an actual hard difficulty for other players doesn't magically change that. And making vet dungeons easier without any other changes obviously isn't a viable solution. And, you know, there's a thread that goes into wonderful detail, where actually smart people have explained all this and detail and made wonderful arguments... But you haven't read that yet, because the only way you can hold onto your ignorance is by ignoring any proof of how wrong you are, so I guess reminding you again won't do much. It's astonishing how capable you are of only listening to your own little echo chamber and completely drowning out all truth and rational thought.
Anyway, here's a hilarious thing: This entire thread, including me, is full of people talking about how mechanics need to be more punishing (designed in a different way). So here you are, in this thread, talking to me, telling me that I think 'mechanics should be made less punishing'. That's how deluded you are. You are legitimately just looking at your screen, day-dreaming, imagining what you want people to say and then answering as if they had said the things you imagined. You don't even care what people say, you just... make up your own stuff. Why can't you do this in your room, alone, instead of bothering other people with it? It baffles me. I don't get the point. I mean it's not even just failed reading comprehension, it's like you're completely detached from reality. What purpose does a discussion serve to you if you can't even bother to read the things you quote? You're looking at a car saying 'that's not a car', just factually wrong, refusing to listen to reason. I don't get the point.
And I'm sorry, but your solution to difficulty balancing and the lack of teaching of gameplay ESO does is "less DPS". Because that's all AC is about -- it's a slight DPS increase. You're not even giving DPS to midtier players. Literally nothing will change for them. Endgame players will play a little more mechanic because they can't burst some things anymore. Nothing will change for everybody else. And bursting isn't even the standard, giving the skipping of mechanics. Lower DPS gives you a perfectly proper dungeon experience. It lets you clear completely fine, and arguably in a way more intended than people just nuking things. So a perceived lack of DPS isn't even an actual problem at all. You run the dungeon the way it's supposed to be run. Absolutely no issue at all as long as you play the mechanics. Is it that you want people with low DPS to nuke and skip the way high DPS folks do...?
The only reason people do vet is because of the rewards. That’s it. No one is missing a lore moment or anything. The look of the dungeon is exactly the same.
If you make harder dungeons with better rewards everyone will want to do those. So what is (old) vet now for? An intermediary step to get a helmet that there is a better version of elsewhere. Once gotten is there any point in doing that dungeon again? All this does is move the goal posts. And instead of complaining about the difficulty of vet dungeons, now the conservation becomes how overly difficult the new nightmare dungeons are.
Meanwhile zos has to balance three versions of the dungeon instead of two.
If you wish to make vet dungeons easier I am not against it. But don’t make another level of difficulty. And combat changes need to be addressed.1 -
TigressCreed✭✭✭I do get where you’re coming from with the idea of a medium dungeon but it would just add more memory usage to the system. Your only chance is to be more social and talk to people. For every toxic mean one I’ve found two super sweet helpful people. I’ve made amazing friends world wide. Be courteous and kind and eventually you’ll meet someone who will take the time to help you. I went from just doing quests to finding several people who helped me get gear and explain hard mode mechanics in dungeons. It’s all random luck who you meet really.Xbox NA TigressCreed0 -
thadjarvis✭✭✭✭The only reason people do vet is because of the rewards. That’s it. No one is missing a lore moment or anything. The look of the dungeon is exactly the same.
That may be true for some/many players. Ie many only choose what they do for ESO generated rewards: gear, housing items, cosmetics, keys, etc.
However, some gamers simply enjoy overcoming getting their butts kicks. Eg. I liked to completing old Halo co-op on highest difficulty with my brother when I was a kid. I like doing vBRP and HM dungeons with friends now. In fact the more we as a group have to think about build/strategy the better. I believe Vet exists for these players while normal exists for the reward focused player and Lore RPers.0 -
dazee✭✭✭✭✭
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Whether I need to or not, I too can animation cancel. I may not like how it works right now, but I do it at least some.Playing your character the way your character should play is all that matters. Play as well as you can but never betray the character. Doing so would make playing an mmoRPG pointless.0 -
dazee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Aznarb was that group dps from vSS?? if that cleared it proves what I've been saying for a very long time. you don't need 40-75k dps for vet trials, only a brain and some patience.Playing your character the way your character should play is all that matters. Play as well as you can but never betray the character. Doing so would make playing an mmoRPG pointless.0 -
Aznarb✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Aznarb was that group dps from vSS?? if that cleared it proves what I've been saying for a very long time. you don't need 40-75k dps for vet trials, only a brain and some patience.
Yes it was and no you don't need more than 35-45k (on dummy) to do each raid.
But it clearly easier with bigger dps and allow the groupe to do some hardest success like speedrun and no death (the faster thing die the less chance to die you get).
So, if you don'ty aim for anything but finish the trial, yes it's totaly doable.
But, if you want some hardest success/challenge, is a bit limited.
For exemple with this dps vSS HM is impossible for them right now.
But like I said they're casual in a casual and social guild, they're not aiming for raid-guild where it's a different story.
People have always the choice, no one force them.[ PC EU ]
[ Khuram-dar ]
[ Khajiit ]
[ Templar - Healer ]
[Crazy Gatherer & Compulsive Thief]0 -
Aznarb✭✭✭✭✭
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Ah yes, do please tell me that I'm personally offended. Surely you saying it will make it true and really support your arguments. Cheap fallacy for the win!
Cool. And? Different games are different. Fallout was made on that principle, ESO wasn't./facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?
In the end all this will accomplish is taking resources away from the game to make content for an incredibly small minority of players.On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings.
So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with? You literally bolded this part, but apparently failed to read it. How would making vet EASIER cause people who didn't run it before cause of the difficulty spike stay away from vet even more? You think maybe if vet was easier they would maybe... Find it more accessible? Just maybe?
The reason a nightmare more would help is because it would push vet into being a medium difficulty tier. ZOS would avoid having to fail at designing vet in a way that appeases two kinds of players requiring vastly different dungeon experiences. It would allow ZOS the freedom to give everybody what they want, go full out with nightmare difficulty while balancing vet to please the large midtier bracket of players (most of which are being punished for the point they are at because they have often outgrown normal.)
Or maybe you're right and making vet easier will drive away people who didn't run it cause it was too difficult. We just don't know, eh?
And if you care about your friends' gaming experience so much, maybe you should be honest with them and explain to them that LA weaving and AC are in no way required for those vet dungeons they fear. Why would you support their being misinformed rather than encourage them? Because it makes for a good argument?
Part of the reason people who don't care for the TES IP play this game is because of the combat system, whether you like that or not. It may suffer a lot of issues overall, but the fast pace is what appeals to a lot of people because of the contrast it has to other combat systems.
The 'high end vet community' being not welcoming is factually wrong. It's a silly, biased claim based on no facts. In the end, the proof is in the pudding: you attack people whose views on the combat system differ from yours with no shame, bit somehow in your mind manage to project your behavior onto others. And I don't even doubt that you've managed to delude yourself into not seeing that it's actually you doing it, and no one else.
Ha!
Face it. Skyrim, Oblivion and the other ES games are way more popular then eso. When they announced ES 6 everyone went nuts. And the only reason Greymoor is of interest to anyone is because of ES 5.
Maybe the game should be more like them if they want to attract players.
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No one will do the vet mode even if it’s turned down. Nightmare and the rewards that drop there will be the new “vet” just with a new name.
The wait times on the vet dungeons will also get longer further making them less attractive.
You are not adding more players to this content. You are just dividing the small amount of players doing this content into more pools.
Except in this case, unless you make the rewards exactly the same as nightmare, no one will be doing vet. And if you do make the rewards the same, the amount of people doing nightmare will go down to a few bored high end players. It’s lose-lose and a development resource waste.
If you want a higher success rate in dungeons, the combat system needs to be improved. Pure and simple.
Your trying to blame the road, when it’s the car we are driving is the problem.
The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games. It has nothing to do with better or worse. And there are legitimately a lot of people (more than I would have expected) that came here for the MMO, not the IP. There are multiplayer mods for the single player games if you want that (even Morrowind with its beyond broken combat ), but the combat style has no place in ESO.
Saying that no one would play a medium difficulty is just wrong. People have been asking for it, or for vet to be turned down for ages. The topic comes up again and again. Who are you to say people don't want that? If you think that people are happy with normal difficulty as it is and no medium at all, why are you even discussing this? Why not keep your AC debate in a relevant thread then? Whether a potential nightmare mode is called vet, or the name vet gets tied to the new medium difficulty honestly makes little difference, outside of some small psychological aspects for marketing to worry about. And while I know some disagree, I think a hardcore difficulty tier shouldn't have extra special rewards. It just sends us back to the accessibility/exclusivity issue. The difficulty should be there just for the sake of enjoyment and challenge.
You have a horribly skewed and biased perspective that ignores facts and reason, and I really suggest you read the very insightful points others have brought up early in the thread and take them seriously. You will not get anywhere unless you face the facts and allow yourself to be more honest about how all of this works. The fact that you're refusing to accept actual facts and things that play into this thing is what makes your points come off as so moot, you know? If you can't acknowledge even the most obvious things, how can anyone take what you say seriously? You don't have to deny everything to bring counter points... But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements.
Fallout 76's combat (a MMO) plays exactly like fallout 4 except vats is a bit tweaked. If you have played fallout 4 for any length of time, the look and feel of combat in fallout 76 is exactly the same.
Well thank god no one said that, I guess!Saying "It's a mmo so it has to be different" is a cop out.
It sure would be something people always asked for and it sure would be an MMO. It also doesn't really change anything about ESO and the fact that they chose not to design it that way.If Bethesda announced "Same old Skyrim, but with friends!" the sales would be through the roof and we all know this, and that would count as a MMO. And the combat system would not have to be changed, at all.
You are 100% going to attract people with a medium difficulty. You are literally ignoring people ASKING FOR THIS FEATURE to remain wilfully ignorant. Literally no one suggested normal and vet should give out the same rewards -- why should they? No one suggested this. At all. And I just told you that I personally think that a hardcore/nightmare mode shouldn't offer better rewards for exactly that reason. Either don't read and don't respond, or read before you respond, please.You are not attracting more people with a medium difficulty. If vet gave out the same rewards as normal, no one would do vet, they would stay in normal mode. Making a harder "Nightmare" mode with better rewards will just have people asking for "Nightmare" mode to be made easier so they can do it to get those rewards.
What people want is a balancing of difficulty modes to provide better experiences for players as detailed in this thread. I will not type out a summary for you, it's right there for you to read. Again you ignore the part where a nightmare mode is supposed to exist solely for challenge and enjoyment. You're harping on counter arguments against nightmare mode having special drops when no one has said that it should, and the person you're rambling at (me) explicitly stated NOT wanting there to be better drops in nightmare. I'm sorry but genuinely, do you just love hearing yourself talk? Do you care at all about making sense and responding to things that have actually been said? Because it sounds like you're just imagining things you wish I said and then writing out your answers to those imaginations to me. I can't tell if you're just being purposefully obtuse now or if you're legitimately lost in your own world now.So what do you want? Just easier vet modes? Sure! Make them the same as normal for all I care. The main reason people do vet modes is to get the helmets, if a new nightmare mode were to be created with better helmets (or whatever) than people will stop doing vet and do a now harder version of vet (i.e. nightmare).
So what was the end result here? To rename vet into nightmare and make it even harder? Will the vet modes have different rewards, so people have to do both instead of doing one? is that really an answer?Anyway all of this comes back to a combat system that is poorly thought out and executed.
Make a more intuitive, friendlier combat system then more people will do activities that are combat related.
More people doing combat related activities then more people will start doing dungeons.
More people doing dungeons then more people familiar with the mechanics of dungeons and a higher success rate will happen.
All of it comes down to the various components of the issue that have been laid out in this thread. None of it comes down to the combat system you personally don't like. Changing the combat system is going to have 0 effect on the current difficulty balancing (or lack thereof) of content and the failure of the game to properly teach gameplay to players. Quite frankly nothing you say even has relevance to this topic. You're here fighting windmills.
They have to make a better combat system.I am sorry that this position somehow personally offends you in some way. (Which it clearly does.) But that I feel is the main issue. But lets begin..
That sure is me! So did you now realize your own mistake while re-reading or do you really need me to explain why 'ESO isn't Skyrim multiplayer' and 'an MMO HAS to be different because it's an MMO' are two different sentences expressing twoo different things?"Well thank god no one said that, I guess!"The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games.It has nothing to do with better or worse.
This is you, is it not? Did I respond to someone else?
It would require a complete redesign of the game. It's not just a small change, it would mean a complete overhaul of the entire concept of the core design. You can also take the latest Mario game and change it so it plays more like GTA. Doesn't mean it's a good or sensible idea. Also I just want to periodically remind you that this entire weird combat system debate has nothing to do with this thread's topic and isn't really a topic I'm interested in or have the strongest opinions about (other than the aforementioned 'fix it, don't scrap the whole game and choose something worse').And just because ESO has a combat system in a particular way does not mean it cannot be changed.I suppose there are people out there who decided one day to play a mmo, and did not choose WoW. And then randomly chose to play ES over other the mmo's by pure randomness. And then decided to stay long enough to start doing vet dungeons. I suppose there are people who fall into that category, I guess.
I am also guessing the amount of people who are playing because it is an ES game is a lot higher though. Look at ES legends or Blades, did you think people picked those up because of game play or because ES was in the title?
Believe it or not, ESO still has a good outside reputation and is considered one of the most worthwhile MMOs to play. Not an expert on any of that stuff, but you see it often enough. At least from an outside perspective it managed to make a name for itself as an MMO, unrelated of IP. Has nothing to do with randomness.
The amount of people playing it for the IP is certainly higher yes. But this matters why? It's relevant how? Doesn't negate the fact that there are people who value the fast paced (when servers allow) combat system.
Yes you've made it quite clear that you don't think so, despite the fact that there is proof against it which you choose to just ignore and never address. Which is why it seems you're too in denial to be taken seriously. Your choosing of ignorance is absolutely astonishing, but unfortunate.Do you think MORE people will start doing dungeons because of a medium difficulty? I don't think so. Do I think vet dungeons difficulty should be turned down? It does not bother me in the slightest either way. But combat is the core problem. People not understanding the combat system is just a cascading issue that flows into all combat related activities.
"So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with?"
"Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while."
"But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements."
"Which is why it seems you're too in denial to be taken seriously."
"Ah yes, do please tell me that I'm personally offended. Surely you saying it will make it true and really support your arguments. Cheap fallacy for the win!"
Yes, by way of your continual personal insults, you do seem personally offended and I am not sure why.
In no way did I say making vet dungeons easier is a bad idea. I said making a new nightmare mode with an intermediate step of a vet mode is not going to solve anything. Make vet mode easier, sure, I don't care. But don't make a third set of dungeons because the middle dungeons will just get ignored. And it's a waste of development time and resources as the amount of people doing dungeons in general is really small.
I think (vet) dungeons can be made easier and more inviting by a better combat system. You think just by making the mechanics less punishing is a better idea. It's two sides of the same coin as I feel a better combat system will in turn make the mechanics less punishing.
Well, the easy solution for you is to stop trying to pretend that I'm 'personally offended'. You are the master of your own mind. Just... stop deciding how other people feel, and the issue is gone. (Not gonna start quoting all the passive aggressive stuff you came in with)
"I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings. "
> "/facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?"
This was your reaction to making vet dungeons easier. Literally going on about what a bad idea it would be. You don't get to ignore that. If you quote people, you respond to what they say, you don't get to pretend they said something that better fits your answer. If vet dungeons are easier, they are easier. The fact that there is an actual hard difficulty for other players doesn't magically change that. And making vet dungeons easier without any other changes obviously isn't a viable solution. And, you know, there's a thread that goes into wonderful detail, where actually smart people have explained all this and detail and made wonderful arguments... But you haven't read that yet, because the only way you can hold onto your ignorance is by ignoring any proof of how wrong you are, so I guess reminding you again won't do much. It's astonishing how capable you are of only listening to your own little echo chamber and completely drowning out all truth and rational thought.
Anyway, here's a hilarious thing: This entire thread, including me, is full of people talking about how mechanics need to be more punishing (designed in a different way). So here you are, in this thread, talking to me, telling me that I think 'mechanics should be made less punishing'. That's how deluded you are. You are legitimately just looking at your screen, day-dreaming, imagining what you want people to say and then answering as if they had said the things you imagined. You don't even care what people say, you just... make up your own stuff. Why can't you do this in your room, alone, instead of bothering other people with it? It baffles me. I don't get the point. I mean it's not even just failed reading comprehension, it's like you're completely detached from reality. What purpose does a discussion serve to you if you can't even bother to read the things you quote? You're looking at a car saying 'that's not a car', just factually wrong, refusing to listen to reason. I don't get the point.
And I'm sorry, but your solution to difficulty balancing and the lack of teaching of gameplay ESO does is "less DPS". Because that's all AC is about -- it's a slight DPS increase. You're not even giving DPS to midtier players. Literally nothing will change for them. Endgame players will play a little more mechanic because they can't burst some things anymore. Nothing will change for everybody else. And bursting isn't even the standard, giving the skipping of mechanics. Lower DPS gives you a perfectly proper dungeon experience. It lets you clear completely fine, and arguably in a way more intended than people just nuking things. So a perceived lack of DPS isn't even an actual problem at all. You run the dungeon the way it's supposed to be run. Absolutely no issue at all as long as you play the mechanics. Is it that you want people with low DPS to nuke and skip the way high DPS folks do...?
The only reason people do vet is because of the rewards. That’s it. No one is missing a lore moment or anything. The look of the dungeon is exactly the same.
If you make harder dungeons with better rewards everyone will want to do those. So what is (old) vet now for? An intermediary step to get a helmet that there is a better version of elsewhere. Once gotten is there any point in doing that dungeon again? All this does is move the goal posts. And instead of complaining about the difficulty of vet dungeons, now the conservation becomes how overly difficult the new nightmare dungeons are.
Meanwhile zos has to balance three versions of the dungeon instead of two.
If you wish to make vet dungeons easier I am not against it. But don’t make another level of difficulty. And combat changes need to be addressed.
Disagree, for us, we do it cuz is more enjoyable.
Normal or vet w/o HM is boring to do, their is no challenge about it, and tbh, lot of HM aren't that hard once you understand the strat.
These day I'm afraid than 2 of my friend leave cuz they don't have that much challenge to clean anymore.
But that the problem in most MMORPG I've played, once you're used to the end-game content, you juste don't have a lot to do except waiting for dlc/chapter.
I don't think the add of a more difficult option will solve this problem, once it's done, problem stay the same.
Look at the 2 last DG, one is fun, one is boring, both are pretty easy and the HM was done in 2-3 try the time to understand strat (we don't spoiled ourself).
We got all new gear we needed on those, and all success are complete (I miss one from icereach actually).
And we don't have rush it or try hard, they was just that easy.
Vet should replace the normal difficulty, even when I started I didn't enjoy for long those normal DG.
That would actually teach player how to improve if they want some gear.
The actual normal DG teach absolutely nothing to player.
That said, it's just my point.
[ PC EU ]
[ Khuram-dar ]
[ Khajiit ]
[ Templar - Healer ]
[Crazy Gatherer & Compulsive Thief]0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Always fun to read when people use animation canceling as a scapegoat. Animation canceling isn't going to boost your dps by 300%, it's just an excuse for refusing to actually learn rotations and setting up characters properly. Animation canceling only makes a small difference in the end, the issue most of the times is that people that complain about low dps don't have: 1. Good rotations (biggest factor), 2 bad gear, 3. Don't Light Attack between each skill 4. CP not set correctly/ low CP.
On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings. However, that would actually require work on ZOS side and the question is, how big of an impact would it have in bringing in new players? Probably not a big one, so there aint $ to be made and therefore the incentive to make these changes isn't there.
What I don't understand about some people is, if you are playing an MMO and complain about having to trial and error, why do you even play a MMO? Isn't that what MMOs are all about?
A lot of people play it for the elder scrolls experience - the MMO part is for them just tolerated and basically ignored as good as it gets. A whole lot play it just like a single player game.
Then play the 99% of the game that's solo-oriented.
This one is too - it's main part is solo oriented and for a long time it wasn't even possible to share a quest with anyone. I'm here to play Elderscrolls occasionally as well with a friend -a friend, as in not a random person, but someone I dearly know and appreciate to spend time with - that is why the way to group up with random people feels absolutely alien to me. You forget that TES comes from the single player area and is designed to be playable solo.
My comment was more about that ESO was designed not just with MMO in mind but as well with pleasing single player people, who occasionally want to experience Tamriel with a friend. You asked something and I gave an answer - but it seems that was just a rhetorical question and basically bait and i took it - too bad.Edited by Lysette on March 14, 2020 1:57AM0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
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Ah yes, do please tell me that I'm personally offended. Surely you saying it will make it true and really support your arguments. Cheap fallacy for the win!
Cool. And? Different games are different. Fallout was made on that principle, ESO wasn't./facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?
In the end all this will accomplish is taking resources away from the game to make content for an incredibly small minority of players.On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings.
So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with? You literally bolded this part, but apparently failed to read it. How would making vet EASIER cause people who didn't run it before cause of the difficulty spike stay away from vet even more? You think maybe if vet was easier they would maybe... Find it more accessible? Just maybe?
The reason a nightmare more would help is because it would push vet into being a medium difficulty tier. ZOS would avoid having to fail at designing vet in a way that appeases two kinds of players requiring vastly different dungeon experiences. It would allow ZOS the freedom to give everybody what they want, go full out with nightmare difficulty while balancing vet to please the large midtier bracket of players (most of which are being punished for the point they are at because they have often outgrown normal.)
Or maybe you're right and making vet easier will drive away people who didn't run it cause it was too difficult. We just don't know, eh?
And if you care about your friends' gaming experience so much, maybe you should be honest with them and explain to them that LA weaving and AC are in no way required for those vet dungeons they fear. Why would you support their being misinformed rather than encourage them? Because it makes for a good argument?
Part of the reason people who don't care for the TES IP play this game is because of the combat system, whether you like that or not. It may suffer a lot of issues overall, but the fast pace is what appeals to a lot of people because of the contrast it has to other combat systems.
The 'high end vet community' being not welcoming is factually wrong. It's a silly, biased claim based on no facts. In the end, the proof is in the pudding: you attack people whose views on the combat system differ from yours with no shame, bit somehow in your mind manage to project your behavior onto others. And I don't even doubt that you've managed to delude yourself into not seeing that it's actually you doing it, and no one else.
Ha!
Face it. Skyrim, Oblivion and the other ES games are way more popular then eso. When they announced ES 6 everyone went nuts. And the only reason Greymoor is of interest to anyone is because of ES 5.
Maybe the game should be more like them if they want to attract players.
••••
No one will do the vet mode even if it’s turned down. Nightmare and the rewards that drop there will be the new “vet” just with a new name.
The wait times on the vet dungeons will also get longer further making them less attractive.
You are not adding more players to this content. You are just dividing the small amount of players doing this content into more pools.
Except in this case, unless you make the rewards exactly the same as nightmare, no one will be doing vet. And if you do make the rewards the same, the amount of people doing nightmare will go down to a few bored high end players. It’s lose-lose and a development resource waste.
If you want a higher success rate in dungeons, the combat system needs to be improved. Pure and simple.
Your trying to blame the road, when it’s the car we are driving is the problem.
The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games. It has nothing to do with better or worse. And there are legitimately a lot of people (more than I would have expected) that came here for the MMO, not the IP. There are multiplayer mods for the single player games if you want that (even Morrowind with its beyond broken combat ), but the combat style has no place in ESO.
Saying that no one would play a medium difficulty is just wrong. People have been asking for it, or for vet to be turned down for ages. The topic comes up again and again. Who are you to say people don't want that? If you think that people are happy with normal difficulty as it is and no medium at all, why are you even discussing this? Why not keep your AC debate in a relevant thread then? Whether a potential nightmare mode is called vet, or the name vet gets tied to the new medium difficulty honestly makes little difference, outside of some small psychological aspects for marketing to worry about. And while I know some disagree, I think a hardcore difficulty tier shouldn't have extra special rewards. It just sends us back to the accessibility/exclusivity issue. The difficulty should be there just for the sake of enjoyment and challenge.
You have a horribly skewed and biased perspective that ignores facts and reason, and I really suggest you read the very insightful points others have brought up early in the thread and take them seriously. You will not get anywhere unless you face the facts and allow yourself to be more honest about how all of this works. The fact that you're refusing to accept actual facts and things that play into this thing is what makes your points come off as so moot, you know? If you can't acknowledge even the most obvious things, how can anyone take what you say seriously? You don't have to deny everything to bring counter points... But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements.
Fallout 76's combat (a MMO) plays exactly like fallout 4 except vats is a bit tweaked. If you have played fallout 4 for any length of time, the look and feel of combat in fallout 76 is exactly the same.
Well thank god no one said that, I guess!Saying "It's a mmo so it has to be different" is a cop out.
It sure would be something people always asked for and it sure would be an MMO. It also doesn't really change anything about ESO and the fact that they chose not to design it that way.If Bethesda announced "Same old Skyrim, but with friends!" the sales would be through the roof and we all know this, and that would count as a MMO. And the combat system would not have to be changed, at all.
You are 100% going to attract people with a medium difficulty. You are literally ignoring people ASKING FOR THIS FEATURE to remain wilfully ignorant. Literally no one suggested normal and vet should give out the same rewards -- why should they? No one suggested this. At all. And I just told you that I personally think that a hardcore/nightmare mode shouldn't offer better rewards for exactly that reason. Either don't read and don't respond, or read before you respond, please.You are not attracting more people with a medium difficulty. If vet gave out the same rewards as normal, no one would do vet, they would stay in normal mode. Making a harder "Nightmare" mode with better rewards will just have people asking for "Nightmare" mode to be made easier so they can do it to get those rewards.
What people want is a balancing of difficulty modes to provide better experiences for players as detailed in this thread. I will not type out a summary for you, it's right there for you to read. Again you ignore the part where a nightmare mode is supposed to exist solely for challenge and enjoyment. You're harping on counter arguments against nightmare mode having special drops when no one has said that it should, and the person you're rambling at (me) explicitly stated NOT wanting there to be better drops in nightmare. I'm sorry but genuinely, do you just love hearing yourself talk? Do you care at all about making sense and responding to things that have actually been said? Because it sounds like you're just imagining things you wish I said and then writing out your answers to those imaginations to me. I can't tell if you're just being purposefully obtuse now or if you're legitimately lost in your own world now.So what do you want? Just easier vet modes? Sure! Make them the same as normal for all I care. The main reason people do vet modes is to get the helmets, if a new nightmare mode were to be created with better helmets (or whatever) than people will stop doing vet and do a now harder version of vet (i.e. nightmare).
So what was the end result here? To rename vet into nightmare and make it even harder? Will the vet modes have different rewards, so people have to do both instead of doing one? is that really an answer?Anyway all of this comes back to a combat system that is poorly thought out and executed.
Make a more intuitive, friendlier combat system then more people will do activities that are combat related.
More people doing combat related activities then more people will start doing dungeons.
More people doing dungeons then more people familiar with the mechanics of dungeons and a higher success rate will happen.
All of it comes down to the various components of the issue that have been laid out in this thread. None of it comes down to the combat system you personally don't like. Changing the combat system is going to have 0 effect on the current difficulty balancing (or lack thereof) of content and the failure of the game to properly teach gameplay to players. Quite frankly nothing you say even has relevance to this topic. You're here fighting windmills.
They have to make a better combat system.I am sorry that this position somehow personally offends you in some way. (Which it clearly does.) But that I feel is the main issue. But lets begin..
That sure is me! So did you now realize your own mistake while re-reading or do you really need me to explain why 'ESO isn't Skyrim multiplayer' and 'an MMO HAS to be different because it's an MMO' are two different sentences expressing twoo different things?"Well thank god no one said that, I guess!"The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games.It has nothing to do with better or worse.
This is you, is it not? Did I respond to someone else?
It would require a complete redesign of the game. It's not just a small change, it would mean a complete overhaul of the entire concept of the core design. You can also take the latest Mario game and change it so it plays more like GTA. Doesn't mean it's a good or sensible idea. Also I just want to periodically remind you that this entire weird combat system debate has nothing to do with this thread's topic and isn't really a topic I'm interested in or have the strongest opinions about (other than the aforementioned 'fix it, don't scrap the whole game and choose something worse').And just because ESO has a combat system in a particular way does not mean it cannot be changed.I suppose there are people out there who decided one day to play a mmo, and did not choose WoW. And then randomly chose to play ES over other the mmo's by pure randomness. And then decided to stay long enough to start doing vet dungeons. I suppose there are people who fall into that category, I guess.
I am also guessing the amount of people who are playing because it is an ES game is a lot higher though. Look at ES legends or Blades, did you think people picked those up because of game play or because ES was in the title?
Believe it or not, ESO still has a good outside reputation and is considered one of the most worthwhile MMOs to play. Not an expert on any of that stuff, but you see it often enough. At least from an outside perspective it managed to make a name for itself as an MMO, unrelated of IP. Has nothing to do with randomness.
The amount of people playing it for the IP is certainly higher yes. But this matters why? It's relevant how? Doesn't negate the fact that there are people who value the fast paced (when servers allow) combat system.
Yes you've made it quite clear that you don't think so, despite the fact that there is proof against it which you choose to just ignore and never address. Which is why it seems you're too in denial to be taken seriously. Your choosing of ignorance is absolutely astonishing, but unfortunate.Do you think MORE people will start doing dungeons because of a medium difficulty? I don't think so. Do I think vet dungeons difficulty should be turned down? It does not bother me in the slightest either way. But combat is the core problem. People not understanding the combat system is just a cascading issue that flows into all combat related activities.
"So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with?"
"Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while."
"But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements."
"Which is why it seems you're too in denial to be taken seriously."
"Ah yes, do please tell me that I'm personally offended. Surely you saying it will make it true and really support your arguments. Cheap fallacy for the win!"
Yes, by way of your continual personal insults, you do seem personally offended and I am not sure why.
In no way did I say making vet dungeons easier is a bad idea. I said making a new nightmare mode with an intermediate step of a vet mode is not going to solve anything. Make vet mode easier, sure, I don't care. But don't make a third set of dungeons because the middle dungeons will just get ignored. And it's a waste of development time and resources as the amount of people doing dungeons in general is really small.
I think (vet) dungeons can be made easier and more inviting by a better combat system. You think just by making the mechanics less punishing is a better idea. It's two sides of the same coin as I feel a better combat system will in turn make the mechanics less punishing.
Well, the easy solution for you is to stop trying to pretend that I'm 'personally offended'. You are the master of your own mind. Just... stop deciding how other people feel, and the issue is gone. (Not gonna start quoting all the passive aggressive stuff you came in with)
"I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings. "
> "/facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?"
This was your reaction to making vet dungeons easier. Literally going on about what a bad idea it would be. You don't get to ignore that. If you quote people, you respond to what they say, you don't get to pretend they said something that better fits your answer. If vet dungeons are easier, they are easier. The fact that there is an actual hard difficulty for other players doesn't magically change that. And making vet dungeons easier without any other changes obviously isn't a viable solution. And, you know, there's a thread that goes into wonderful detail, where actually smart people have explained all this and detail and made wonderful arguments... But you haven't read that yet, because the only way you can hold onto your ignorance is by ignoring any proof of how wrong you are, so I guess reminding you again won't do much. It's astonishing how capable you are of only listening to your own little echo chamber and completely drowning out all truth and rational thought.
Anyway, here's a hilarious thing: This entire thread, including me, is full of people talking about how mechanics need to be more punishing (designed in a different way). So here you are, in this thread, talking to me, telling me that I think 'mechanics should be made less punishing'. That's how deluded you are. You are legitimately just looking at your screen, day-dreaming, imagining what you want people to say and then answering as if they had said the things you imagined. You don't even care what people say, you just... make up your own stuff. Why can't you do this in your room, alone, instead of bothering other people with it? It baffles me. I don't get the point. I mean it's not even just failed reading comprehension, it's like you're completely detached from reality. What purpose does a discussion serve to you if you can't even bother to read the things you quote? You're looking at a car saying 'that's not a car', just factually wrong, refusing to listen to reason. I don't get the point.
And I'm sorry, but your solution to difficulty balancing and the lack of teaching of gameplay ESO does is "less DPS". Because that's all AC is about -- it's a slight DPS increase. You're not even giving DPS to midtier players. Literally nothing will change for them. Endgame players will play a little more mechanic because they can't burst some things anymore. Nothing will change for everybody else. And bursting isn't even the standard, giving the skipping of mechanics. Lower DPS gives you a perfectly proper dungeon experience. It lets you clear completely fine, and arguably in a way more intended than people just nuking things. So a perceived lack of DPS isn't even an actual problem at all. You run the dungeon the way it's supposed to be run. Absolutely no issue at all as long as you play the mechanics. Is it that you want people with low DPS to nuke and skip the way high DPS folks do...?
The only reason people do vet is because of the rewards. That’s it. No one is missing a lore moment or anything. The look of the dungeon is exactly the same.
If you make harder dungeons with better rewards everyone will want to do those. So what is (old) vet now for? An intermediary step to get a helmet that there is a better version of elsewhere. Once gotten is there any point in doing that dungeon again? All this does is move the goal posts. And instead of complaining about the difficulty of vet dungeons, now the conservation becomes how overly difficult the new nightmare dungeons are.
Meanwhile zos has to balance three versions of the dungeon instead of two.
If you wish to make vet dungeons easier I am not against it. But don’t make another level of difficulty. And combat changes need to be addressed.
Disagree, for us, we do it cuz is more enjoyable.
Normal or vet w/o HM is boring to do, their is no challenge about it, and tbh, lot of HM aren't that hard once you understand the strat.
These day I'm afraid than 2 of my friend leave cuz they don't have that much challenge to clean anymore.
But that the problem in most MMORPG I've played, once you're used to the end-game content, you juste don't have a lot to do except waiting for dlc/chapter.
I don't think the add of a more difficult option will solve this problem, once it's done, problem stay the same.
Look at the 2 last DG, one is fun, one is boring, both are pretty easy and the HM was done in 2-3 try the time to understand strat (we don't spoiled ourself).
We got all new gear we needed on those, and all success are complete (I miss one from icereach actually).
And we don't have rush it or try hard, they was just that easy.
Vet should replace the normal difficulty, even when I started I didn't enjoy for long those normal DG.
That would actually teach player how to improve if they want some gear.
The actual normal DG teach absolutely nothing to player.
That said, it's just my point.
Then just have normal and vet have the same rewards and loot. Then vet exists purely for the challenge. Again this solution does not bother me in the least.
See, now everyone is happy. (That Line was sarcasm, as I have a feeling many people wouldn’t be happy.)1 -
dazee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If vet was the normal dungeon difficulty, you and people like you would be without a game in a couple months.
It's becuase of people like this who do not stop to think for a moment what would happen if the changes they ask for were actually made, that the game is in the state it is now.Playing your character the way your character should play is all that matters. Play as well as you can but never betray the character. Doing so would make playing an mmoRPG pointless.0 -
Aznarb✭✭✭✭✭
✭If vet was the normal dungeon difficulty, you and people like you would be without a game in a couple months.
It's becuase of people like this who do not stop to think for a moment what would happen if the changes they ask for were actually made, that the game is in the state it is now.
Like I said, it's just my point.
I don't ask anything and enjoy the game for how it is, if not I would simply change and not wast my time crying on a forum like some.[ PC EU ]
[ Khuram-dar ]
[ Khajiit ]
[ Templar - Healer ]
[Crazy Gatherer & Compulsive Thief]1 -
codierussell✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »
SWTOR has SOLO STORY mode to teach people the basic mechanics before they go into 4-team Veteran and it works brilliantly. In Veteran you learn additional mechanics to prepare you for Master Mode. It's a good progression that not only teaches mechanics but shows you what all roles need to do.
Isn't that exactly what happens in ESO? When I started I remember solo questing learning my skills and mechanics, learning a lot of the same mechanics in overland content as I go. Then, I did normal dungeons that furthered my knowledge of the game in groups and even more mechanics. After all that it was on to veteran content. I don't see the difference here.0 -
dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭text
see theres several things that contributed to this uneven difficulty spike.
Champion levels over time make easier content faceroll-able to the point its making bad habits when switching over to harder content.
overworld is faceroll-able without champion levels so the players leveling for the first time never really get challenged unlike back in the days of veteran levels.
one tamriel crippled the overworld scaling to the point where a lvl 5 could think end game is easy due to being able to play along side high levels and not struggle resulting in overconfidence in hard content.
these things contributed to the massive spike in difficulty over time.PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Regardless of all the absolutely priceless entertainment this thread is providing, may I point out that...
Using Fallout 76 of all things as a positive example for anything gaming realted is a very self-defeating point.
I hate to break it to you but eso is not that highly rated either. So people in glass houses should not throw stones
I hate to break it to you but it has maintained a top 5 spot among MMORPGs all along. You should listen to your own advice because you just shattered your own little glass house.
Yea, facts are inconvenient to junk you are trying to sell.1 -
dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Regardless of all the absolutely priceless entertainment this thread is providing, may I point out that...
Using Fallout 76 of all things as a positive example for anything gaming realted is a very self-defeating point.
I hate to break it to you but eso is not that highly rated either. So people in glass houses should not throw stones
I hate to break it to you but it has maintained a top 5 spot among MMORPGs all along. You should listen to your own advice because you just shattered your own little glass house.
Yea, facts are inconvenient to junk you are trying to sell.
i mean in all fairness what has it gotta compete with?
WoW, FF14, Destiny...?
i mean besides the hundreds of korean grind games there isn't much competition for top 5PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Ah yes, do please tell me that I'm personally offended. Surely you saying it will make it true and really support your arguments. Cheap fallacy for the win!
Cool. And? Different games are different. Fallout was made on that principle, ESO wasn't./facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?
In the end all this will accomplish is taking resources away from the game to make content for an incredibly small minority of players.On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings.
So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with? You literally bolded this part, but apparently failed to read it. How would making vet EASIER cause people who didn't run it before cause of the difficulty spike stay away from vet even more? You think maybe if vet was easier they would maybe... Find it more accessible? Just maybe?
The reason a nightmare more would help is because it would push vet into being a medium difficulty tier. ZOS would avoid having to fail at designing vet in a way that appeases two kinds of players requiring vastly different dungeon experiences. It would allow ZOS the freedom to give everybody what they want, go full out with nightmare difficulty while balancing vet to please the large midtier bracket of players (most of which are being punished for the point they are at because they have often outgrown normal.)
Or maybe you're right and making vet easier will drive away people who didn't run it cause it was too difficult. We just don't know, eh?
And if you care about your friends' gaming experience so much, maybe you should be honest with them and explain to them that LA weaving and AC are in no way required for those vet dungeons they fear. Why would you support their being misinformed rather than encourage them? Because it makes for a good argument?
Part of the reason people who don't care for the TES IP play this game is because of the combat system, whether you like that or not. It may suffer a lot of issues overall, but the fast pace is what appeals to a lot of people because of the contrast it has to other combat systems.
The 'high end vet community' being not welcoming is factually wrong. It's a silly, biased claim based on no facts. In the end, the proof is in the pudding: you attack people whose views on the combat system differ from yours with no shame, bit somehow in your mind manage to project your behavior onto others. And I don't even doubt that you've managed to delude yourself into not seeing that it's actually you doing it, and no one else.
Ha!
Face it. Skyrim, Oblivion and the other ES games are way more popular then eso. When they announced ES 6 everyone went nuts. And the only reason Greymoor is of interest to anyone is because of ES 5.
Maybe the game should be more like them if they want to attract players.
••••
No one will do the vet mode even if it’s turned down. Nightmare and the rewards that drop there will be the new “vet” just with a new name.
The wait times on the vet dungeons will also get longer further making them less attractive.
You are not adding more players to this content. You are just dividing the small amount of players doing this content into more pools.
Except in this case, unless you make the rewards exactly the same as nightmare, no one will be doing vet. And if you do make the rewards the same, the amount of people doing nightmare will go down to a few bored high end players. It’s lose-lose and a development resource waste.
If you want a higher success rate in dungeons, the combat system needs to be improved. Pure and simple.
Your trying to blame the road, when it’s the car we are driving is the problem.
The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games. It has nothing to do with better or worse. And there are legitimately a lot of people (more than I would have expected) that came here for the MMO, not the IP. There are multiplayer mods for the single player games if you want that (even Morrowind with its beyond broken combat ), but the combat style has no place in ESO.
Saying that no one would play a medium difficulty is just wrong. People have been asking for it, or for vet to be turned down for ages. The topic comes up again and again. Who are you to say people don't want that? If you think that people are happy with normal difficulty as it is and no medium at all, why are you even discussing this? Why not keep your AC debate in a relevant thread then? Whether a potential nightmare mode is called vet, or the name vet gets tied to the new medium difficulty honestly makes little difference, outside of some small psychological aspects for marketing to worry about. And while I know some disagree, I think a hardcore difficulty tier shouldn't have extra special rewards. It just sends us back to the accessibility/exclusivity issue. The difficulty should be there just for the sake of enjoyment and challenge.
You have a horribly skewed and biased perspective that ignores facts and reason, and I really suggest you read the very insightful points others have brought up early in the thread and take them seriously. You will not get anywhere unless you face the facts and allow yourself to be more honest about how all of this works. The fact that you're refusing to accept actual facts and things that play into this thing is what makes your points come off as so moot, you know? If you can't acknowledge even the most obvious things, how can anyone take what you say seriously? You don't have to deny everything to bring counter points... But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements.
Fallout 76's combat (a MMO) plays exactly like fallout 4 except vats is a bit tweaked. If you have played fallout 4 for any length of time, the look and feel of combat in fallout 76 is exactly the same.
Well thank god no one said that, I guess!Saying "It's a mmo so it has to be different" is a cop out.
It sure would be something people always asked for and it sure would be an MMO. It also doesn't really change anything about ESO and the fact that they chose not to design it that way.If Bethesda announced "Same old Skyrim, but with friends!" the sales would be through the roof and we all know this, and that would count as a MMO. And the combat system would not have to be changed, at all.
You are 100% going to attract people with a medium difficulty. You are literally ignoring people ASKING FOR THIS FEATURE to remain wilfully ignorant. Literally no one suggested normal and vet should give out the same rewards -- why should they? No one suggested this. At all. And I just told you that I personally think that a hardcore/nightmare mode shouldn't offer better rewards for exactly that reason. Either don't read and don't respond, or read before you respond, please.You are not attracting more people with a medium difficulty. If vet gave out the same rewards as normal, no one would do vet, they would stay in normal mode. Making a harder "Nightmare" mode with better rewards will just have people asking for "Nightmare" mode to be made easier so they can do it to get those rewards.
What people want is a balancing of difficulty modes to provide better experiences for players as detailed in this thread. I will not type out a summary for you, it's right there for you to read. Again you ignore the part where a nightmare mode is supposed to exist solely for challenge and enjoyment. You're harping on counter arguments against nightmare mode having special drops when no one has said that it should, and the person you're rambling at (me) explicitly stated NOT wanting there to be better drops in nightmare. I'm sorry but genuinely, do you just love hearing yourself talk? Do you care at all about making sense and responding to things that have actually been said? Because it sounds like you're just imagining things you wish I said and then writing out your answers to those imaginations to me. I can't tell if you're just being purposefully obtuse now or if you're legitimately lost in your own world now.So what do you want? Just easier vet modes? Sure! Make them the same as normal for all I care. The main reason people do vet modes is to get the helmets, if a new nightmare mode were to be created with better helmets (or whatever) than people will stop doing vet and do a now harder version of vet (i.e. nightmare).
So what was the end result here? To rename vet into nightmare and make it even harder? Will the vet modes have different rewards, so people have to do both instead of doing one? is that really an answer?Anyway all of this comes back to a combat system that is poorly thought out and executed.
Make a more intuitive, friendlier combat system then more people will do activities that are combat related.
More people doing combat related activities then more people will start doing dungeons.
More people doing dungeons then more people familiar with the mechanics of dungeons and a higher success rate will happen.
All of it comes down to the various components of the issue that have been laid out in this thread. None of it comes down to the combat system you personally don't like. Changing the combat system is going to have 0 effect on the current difficulty balancing (or lack thereof) of content and the failure of the game to properly teach gameplay to players. Quite frankly nothing you say even has relevance to this topic. You're here fighting windmills.
They have to make a better combat system.I am sorry that this position somehow personally offends you in some way. (Which it clearly does.) But that I feel is the main issue. But lets begin..
That sure is me! So did you now realize your own mistake while re-reading or do you really need me to explain why 'ESO isn't Skyrim multiplayer' and 'an MMO HAS to be different because it's an MMO' are two different sentences expressing twoo different things?"Well thank god no one said that, I guess!"The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games.It has nothing to do with better or worse.
This is you, is it not? Did I respond to someone else?
It would require a complete redesign of the game. It's not just a small change, it would mean a complete overhaul of the entire concept of the core design. You can also take the latest Mario game and change it so it plays more like GTA. Doesn't mean it's a good or sensible idea. Also I just want to periodically remind you that this entire weird combat system debate has nothing to do with this thread's topic and isn't really a topic I'm interested in or have the strongest opinions about (other than the aforementioned 'fix it, don't scrap the whole game and choose something worse').And just because ESO has a combat system in a particular way does not mean it cannot be changed.I suppose there are people out there who decided one day to play a mmo, and did not choose WoW. And then randomly chose to play ES over other the mmo's by pure randomness. And then decided to stay long enough to start doing vet dungeons. I suppose there are people who fall into that category, I guess.
I am also guessing the amount of people who are playing because it is an ES game is a lot higher though. Look at ES legends or Blades, did you think people picked those up because of game play or because ES was in the title?
Believe it or not, ESO still has a good outside reputation and is considered one of the most worthwhile MMOs to play. Not an expert on any of that stuff, but you see it often enough. At least from an outside perspective it managed to make a name for itself as an MMO, unrelated of IP. Has nothing to do with randomness.
The amount of people playing it for the IP is certainly higher yes. But this matters why? It's relevant how? Doesn't negate the fact that there are people who value the fast paced (when servers allow) combat system.
Yes you've made it quite clear that you don't think so, despite the fact that there is proof against it which you choose to just ignore and never address. Which is why it seems you're too in denial to be taken seriously. Your choosing of ignorance is absolutely astonishing, but unfortunate.Do you think MORE people will start doing dungeons because of a medium difficulty? I don't think so. Do I think vet dungeons difficulty should be turned down? It does not bother me in the slightest either way. But combat is the core problem. People not understanding the combat system is just a cascading issue that flows into all combat related activities.
"So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with?"
"Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while."
"But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements."
"Which is why it seems you're too in denial to be taken seriously."
"Ah yes, do please tell me that I'm personally offended. Surely you saying it will make it true and really support your arguments. Cheap fallacy for the win!"
Yes, by way of your continual personal insults, you do seem personally offended and I am not sure why.
In no way did I say making vet dungeons easier is a bad idea. I said making a new nightmare mode with an intermediate step of a vet mode is not going to solve anything. Make vet mode easier, sure, I don't care. But don't make a third set of dungeons because the middle dungeons will just get ignored. And it's a waste of development time and resources as the amount of people doing dungeons in general is really small.
I think (vet) dungeons can be made easier and more inviting by a better combat system. You think just by making the mechanics less punishing is a better idea. It's two sides of the same coin as I feel a better combat system will in turn make the mechanics less punishing.
Well, the easy solution for you is to stop trying to pretend that I'm 'personally offended'. You are the master of your own mind. Just... stop deciding how other people feel, and the issue is gone. (Not gonna start quoting all the passive aggressive stuff you came in with)
"I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings. "
> "/facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?"
This was your reaction to making vet dungeons easier. Literally going on about what a bad idea it would be. You don't get to ignore that. If you quote people, you respond to what they say, you don't get to pretend they said something that better fits your answer. If vet dungeons are easier, they are easier. The fact that there is an actual hard difficulty for other players doesn't magically change that. And making vet dungeons easier without any other changes obviously isn't a viable solution. And, you know, there's a thread that goes into wonderful detail, where actually smart people have explained all this and detail and made wonderful arguments... But you haven't read that yet, because the only way you can hold onto your ignorance is by ignoring any proof of how wrong you are, so I guess reminding you again won't do much. It's astonishing how capable you are of only listening to your own little echo chamber and completely drowning out all truth and rational thought.
Anyway, here's a hilarious thing: This entire thread, including me, is full of people talking about how mechanics need to be more punishing (designed in a different way). So here you are, in this thread, talking to me, telling me that I think 'mechanics should be made less punishing'. That's how deluded you are. You are legitimately just looking at your screen, day-dreaming, imagining what you want people to say and then answering as if they had said the things you imagined. You don't even care what people say, you just... make up your own stuff. Why can't you do this in your room, alone, instead of bothering other people with it? It baffles me. I don't get the point. I mean it's not even just failed reading comprehension, it's like you're completely detached from reality. What purpose does a discussion serve to you if you can't even bother to read the things you quote? You're looking at a car saying 'that's not a car', just factually wrong, refusing to listen to reason. I don't get the point.
And I'm sorry, but your solution to difficulty balancing and the lack of teaching of gameplay ESO does is "less DPS". Because that's all AC is about -- it's a slight DPS increase. You're not even giving DPS to midtier players. Literally nothing will change for them. Endgame players will play a little more mechanic because they can't burst some things anymore. Nothing will change for everybody else. And bursting isn't even the standard, giving the skipping of mechanics. Lower DPS gives you a perfectly proper dungeon experience. It lets you clear completely fine, and arguably in a way more intended than people just nuking things. So a perceived lack of DPS isn't even an actual problem at all. You run the dungeon the way it's supposed to be run. Absolutely no issue at all as long as you play the mechanics. Is it that you want people with low DPS to nuke and skip the way high DPS folks do...?
The only reason people do vet is because of the rewards.
Again, false. I am sure some people only do vet for rewards but many of us do it because we enjoy it.
What rewards. A great many of us continue clearing the vet content well after we have everything we will get out of it because getting better at it a a group is what we enjoy doing. For someone who keeps making these strong and absolute statements you seem to lack a basic understanding of the gaming population.4 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Regardless of all the absolutely priceless entertainment this thread is providing, may I point out that...
Using Fallout 76 of all things as a positive example for anything gaming realted is a very self-defeating point.
I hate to break it to you but eso is not that highly rated either. So people in glass houses should not throw stones
I hate to break it to you but it has maintained a top 5 spot among MMORPGs all along. You should listen to your own advice because you just shattered your own little glass house.
Yea, facts are inconvenient to junk you are trying to sell.
"Top 5?" It is 5th.
https://www.mmorpg.com
It rates BELOW Secret World Legends. Which appears to have not seen a dlc update since 2018.
https://store.steampowered.com/dlc/215280/Secret_World_Legends/
(Do they even make content for that game anymore?)
Ah yes, do please tell me that I'm personally offended. Surely you saying it will make it true and really support your arguments. Cheap fallacy for the win!
Cool. And? Different games are different. Fallout was made on that principle, ESO wasn't./facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?
In the end all this will accomplish is taking resources away from the game to make content for an incredibly small minority of players.On the difficulty of dungeons or content in general. I do agree that the gap is way too big. I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings.
So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with? You literally bolded this part, but apparently failed to read it. How would making vet EASIER cause people who didn't run it before cause of the difficulty spike stay away from vet even more? You think maybe if vet was easier they would maybe... Find it more accessible? Just maybe?
The reason a nightmare more would help is because it would push vet into being a medium difficulty tier. ZOS would avoid having to fail at designing vet in a way that appeases two kinds of players requiring vastly different dungeon experiences. It would allow ZOS the freedom to give everybody what they want, go full out with nightmare difficulty while balancing vet to please the large midtier bracket of players (most of which are being punished for the point they are at because they have often outgrown normal.)
Or maybe you're right and making vet easier will drive away people who didn't run it cause it was too difficult. We just don't know, eh?
And if you care about your friends' gaming experience so much, maybe you should be honest with them and explain to them that LA weaving and AC are in no way required for those vet dungeons they fear. Why would you support their being misinformed rather than encourage them? Because it makes for a good argument?
Part of the reason people who don't care for the TES IP play this game is because of the combat system, whether you like that or not. It may suffer a lot of issues overall, but the fast pace is what appeals to a lot of people because of the contrast it has to other combat systems.
The 'high end vet community' being not welcoming is factually wrong. It's a silly, biased claim based on no facts. In the end, the proof is in the pudding: you attack people whose views on the combat system differ from yours with no shame, bit somehow in your mind manage to project your behavior onto others. And I don't even doubt that you've managed to delude yourself into not seeing that it's actually you doing it, and no one else.
Ha!
Face it. Skyrim, Oblivion and the other ES games are way more popular then eso. When they announced ES 6 everyone went nuts. And the only reason Greymoor is of interest to anyone is because of ES 5.
Maybe the game should be more like them if they want to attract players.
••••
No one will do the vet mode even if it’s turned down. Nightmare and the rewards that drop there will be the new “vet” just with a new name.
The wait times on the vet dungeons will also get longer further making them less attractive.
You are not adding more players to this content. You are just dividing the small amount of players doing this content into more pools.
Except in this case, unless you make the rewards exactly the same as nightmare, no one will be doing vet. And if you do make the rewards the same, the amount of people doing nightmare will go down to a few bored high end players. It’s lose-lose and a development resource waste.
If you want a higher success rate in dungeons, the combat system needs to be improved. Pure and simple.
Your trying to blame the road, when it’s the car we are driving is the problem.
The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games. It has nothing to do with better or worse. And there are legitimately a lot of people (more than I would have expected) that came here for the MMO, not the IP. There are multiplayer mods for the single player games if you want that (even Morrowind with its beyond broken combat ), but the combat style has no place in ESO.
Saying that no one would play a medium difficulty is just wrong. People have been asking for it, or for vet to be turned down for ages. The topic comes up again and again. Who are you to say people don't want that? If you think that people are happy with normal difficulty as it is and no medium at all, why are you even discussing this? Why not keep your AC debate in a relevant thread then? Whether a potential nightmare mode is called vet, or the name vet gets tied to the new medium difficulty honestly makes little difference, outside of some small psychological aspects for marketing to worry about. And while I know some disagree, I think a hardcore difficulty tier shouldn't have extra special rewards. It just sends us back to the accessibility/exclusivity issue. The difficulty should be there just for the sake of enjoyment and challenge.
You have a horribly skewed and biased perspective that ignores facts and reason, and I really suggest you read the very insightful points others have brought up early in the thread and take them seriously. You will not get anywhere unless you face the facts and allow yourself to be more honest about how all of this works. The fact that you're refusing to accept actual facts and things that play into this thing is what makes your points come off as so moot, you know? If you can't acknowledge even the most obvious things, how can anyone take what you say seriously? You don't have to deny everything to bring counter points... But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements.
Fallout 76's combat (a MMO) plays exactly like fallout 4 except vats is a bit tweaked. If you have played fallout 4 for any length of time, the look and feel of combat in fallout 76 is exactly the same.
Well thank god no one said that, I guess!Saying "It's a mmo so it has to be different" is a cop out.
It sure would be something people always asked for and it sure would be an MMO. It also doesn't really change anything about ESO and the fact that they chose not to design it that way.If Bethesda announced "Same old Skyrim, but with friends!" the sales would be through the roof and we all know this, and that would count as a MMO. And the combat system would not have to be changed, at all.
You are 100% going to attract people with a medium difficulty. You are literally ignoring people ASKING FOR THIS FEATURE to remain wilfully ignorant. Literally no one suggested normal and vet should give out the same rewards -- why should they? No one suggested this. At all. And I just told you that I personally think that a hardcore/nightmare mode shouldn't offer better rewards for exactly that reason. Either don't read and don't respond, or read before you respond, please.You are not attracting more people with a medium difficulty. If vet gave out the same rewards as normal, no one would do vet, they would stay in normal mode. Making a harder "Nightmare" mode with better rewards will just have people asking for "Nightmare" mode to be made easier so they can do it to get those rewards.
What people want is a balancing of difficulty modes to provide better experiences for players as detailed in this thread. I will not type out a summary for you, it's right there for you to read. Again you ignore the part where a nightmare mode is supposed to exist solely for challenge and enjoyment. You're harping on counter arguments against nightmare mode having special drops when no one has said that it should, and the person you're rambling at (me) explicitly stated NOT wanting there to be better drops in nightmare. I'm sorry but genuinely, do you just love hearing yourself talk? Do you care at all about making sense and responding to things that have actually been said? Because it sounds like you're just imagining things you wish I said and then writing out your answers to those imaginations to me. I can't tell if you're just being purposefully obtuse now or if you're legitimately lost in your own world now.So what do you want? Just easier vet modes? Sure! Make them the same as normal for all I care. The main reason people do vet modes is to get the helmets, if a new nightmare mode were to be created with better helmets (or whatever) than people will stop doing vet and do a now harder version of vet (i.e. nightmare).
So what was the end result here? To rename vet into nightmare and make it even harder? Will the vet modes have different rewards, so people have to do both instead of doing one? is that really an answer?Anyway all of this comes back to a combat system that is poorly thought out and executed.
Make a more intuitive, friendlier combat system then more people will do activities that are combat related.
More people doing combat related activities then more people will start doing dungeons.
More people doing dungeons then more people familiar with the mechanics of dungeons and a higher success rate will happen.
All of it comes down to the various components of the issue that have been laid out in this thread. None of it comes down to the combat system you personally don't like. Changing the combat system is going to have 0 effect on the current difficulty balancing (or lack thereof) of content and the failure of the game to properly teach gameplay to players. Quite frankly nothing you say even has relevance to this topic. You're here fighting windmills.
They have to make a better combat system.I am sorry that this position somehow personally offends you in some way. (Which it clearly does.) But that I feel is the main issue. But lets begin..
That sure is me! So did you now realize your own mistake while re-reading or do you really need me to explain why 'ESO isn't Skyrim multiplayer' and 'an MMO HAS to be different because it's an MMO' are two different sentences expressing twoo different things?"Well thank god no one said that, I guess!"The single-player games are completely different games. Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while. ESO is an MMO, not just a multiplayer mode of other TES IP games.It has nothing to do with better or worse.
This is you, is it not? Did I respond to someone else?
It would require a complete redesign of the game. It's not just a small change, it would mean a complete overhaul of the entire concept of the core design. You can also take the latest Mario game and change it so it plays more like GTA. Doesn't mean it's a good or sensible idea. Also I just want to periodically remind you that this entire weird combat system debate has nothing to do with this thread's topic and isn't really a topic I'm interested in or have the strongest opinions about (other than the aforementioned 'fix it, don't scrap the whole game and choose something worse').And just because ESO has a combat system in a particular way does not mean it cannot be changed.I suppose there are people out there who decided one day to play a mmo, and did not choose WoW. And then randomly chose to play ES over other the mmo's by pure randomness. And then decided to stay long enough to start doing vet dungeons. I suppose there are people who fall into that category, I guess.
I am also guessing the amount of people who are playing because it is an ES game is a lot higher though. Look at ES legends or Blades, did you think people picked those up because of game play or because ES was in the title?
Believe it or not, ESO still has a good outside reputation and is considered one of the most worthwhile MMOs to play. Not an expert on any of that stuff, but you see it often enough. At least from an outside perspective it managed to make a name for itself as an MMO, unrelated of IP. Has nothing to do with randomness.
The amount of people playing it for the IP is certainly higher yes. But this matters why? It's relevant how? Doesn't negate the fact that there are people who value the fast paced (when servers allow) combat system.
Yes you've made it quite clear that you don't think so, despite the fact that there is proof against it which you choose to just ignore and never address. Which is why it seems you're too in denial to be taken seriously. Your choosing of ignorance is absolutely astonishing, but unfortunate.Do you think MORE people will start doing dungeons because of a medium difficulty? I don't think so. Do I think vet dungeons difficulty should be turned down? It does not bother me in the slightest either way. But combat is the core problem. People not understanding the combat system is just a cascading issue that flows into all combat related activities.
"So which word of the phrase "veteran should be tuned downed a bit" are you struggling with?"
"Comparing them to ESO is a stupidity I haven't heard in a while."
"But you are doing that, and it takes away all credibility because you don't make yourself look like a person that can make reasonable judgements."
"Which is why it seems you're too in denial to be taken seriously."
"Ah yes, do please tell me that I'm personally offended. Surely you saying it will make it true and really support your arguments. Cheap fallacy for the win!"
Yes, by way of your continual personal insults, you do seem personally offended and I am not sure why.
In no way did I say making vet dungeons easier is a bad idea. I said making a new nightmare mode with an intermediate step of a vet mode is not going to solve anything. Make vet mode easier, sure, I don't care. But don't make a third set of dungeons because the middle dungeons will just get ignored. And it's a waste of development time and resources as the amount of people doing dungeons in general is really small.
I think (vet) dungeons can be made easier and more inviting by a better combat system. You think just by making the mechanics less punishing is a better idea. It's two sides of the same coin as I feel a better combat system will in turn make the mechanics less punishing.
Well, the easy solution for you is to stop trying to pretend that I'm 'personally offended'. You are the master of your own mind. Just... stop deciding how other people feel, and the issue is gone. (Not gonna start quoting all the passive aggressive stuff you came in with)
"I wish normal would stay as it is, veteran should be tuned down a bit and then they should implement a nightmare mode, so we have 3 different difficulty settings. "
> "/facepalm Are you kidding me? All this will do is make people still stay in normal, no one do vet modes at all, and have all the top people cloister themselves away in the new nightmare mode. All this is basically saying is; "Let's make a new version of vet mode that is even harder then the ones we have now." How is this helping anything?"
This was your reaction to making vet dungeons easier. Literally going on about what a bad idea it would be. You don't get to ignore that. If you quote people, you respond to what they say, you don't get to pretend they said something that better fits your answer. If vet dungeons are easier, they are easier. The fact that there is an actual hard difficulty for other players doesn't magically change that. And making vet dungeons easier without any other changes obviously isn't a viable solution. And, you know, there's a thread that goes into wonderful detail, where actually smart people have explained all this and detail and made wonderful arguments... But you haven't read that yet, because the only way you can hold onto your ignorance is by ignoring any proof of how wrong you are, so I guess reminding you again won't do much. It's astonishing how capable you are of only listening to your own little echo chamber and completely drowning out all truth and rational thought.
Anyway, here's a hilarious thing: This entire thread, including me, is full of people talking about how mechanics need to be more punishing (designed in a different way). So here you are, in this thread, talking to me, telling me that I think 'mechanics should be made less punishing'. That's how deluded you are. You are legitimately just looking at your screen, day-dreaming, imagining what you want people to say and then answering as if they had said the things you imagined. You don't even care what people say, you just... make up your own stuff. Why can't you do this in your room, alone, instead of bothering other people with it? It baffles me. I don't get the point. I mean it's not even just failed reading comprehension, it's like you're completely detached from reality. What purpose does a discussion serve to you if you can't even bother to read the things you quote? You're looking at a car saying 'that's not a car', just factually wrong, refusing to listen to reason. I don't get the point.
And I'm sorry, but your solution to difficulty balancing and the lack of teaching of gameplay ESO does is "less DPS". Because that's all AC is about -- it's a slight DPS increase. You're not even giving DPS to midtier players. Literally nothing will change for them. Endgame players will play a little more mechanic because they can't burst some things anymore. Nothing will change for everybody else. And bursting isn't even the standard, giving the skipping of mechanics. Lower DPS gives you a perfectly proper dungeon experience. It lets you clear completely fine, and arguably in a way more intended than people just nuking things. So a perceived lack of DPS isn't even an actual problem at all. You run the dungeon the way it's supposed to be run. Absolutely no issue at all as long as you play the mechanics. Is it that you want people with low DPS to nuke and skip the way high DPS folks do...?
The only reason people do vet is because of the rewards.
Again, false. I am sure some people only do vet for rewards but many of us do it because we enjoy it.
What rewards. A great many of us continue clearing the vet content well after we have everything we will get out of it because getting better at it a a group is what we enjoy doing. For someone who keeps making these strong and absolute statements you seem to lack a basic understanding of the gaming population.
Fine!
Then you should be advocating that all the rewards that drop in vet be moved to normal as well. Vet exists only for the challenge, that's it. No special achievements, gear, furnishings, nothing. I would be all for it.
Go make a post like that, see how well the community treats you. (Hint: It won't go over well.)0
