StaticWave wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.

If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.

@HankTwo

I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...

Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).

Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.

I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.

I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.

Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.

The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.

I dueled a cp 768 stamblade that regularly kills me with 16k onslaught, 9k surprise attacks. I was in heavy armor. No magsorc can even come close to that burst damage.

And?

Completely irrelevant, but you lost to a better player who was probably on a better build. Perhaps roll dodge?

The point was about burst damage. Any class that can stack damage has more burst potential than nightblades. You literally are making the point. Here it is again for those that missed it:

“The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities.”

You responded to that with tooltips. Lol

You don't need to tell me about skill level, or how to play the game, it's irrelevant. Did you completely miss the 16k onslaught mention? I was using the most damage set up in the game, but i still did considerably less damage compared to his. The class just has passives and skills that make them the best at dealing burst damage. Why did I respond with tooltips? Because NB are the best at dealing critical damage. No class in the game has access to that 10% more crit damage, and crits are what kills people, not normal damage.

What did you say that you feel changes the originally point?

What does more damage:

A nightblades onslaught, with whatever sets you prefer?

Or

Onslaught and backlash/sub assault, etc combined?

You’re focusing on nightblades achieving a high tooltip value on a single ability. But the point is, that ability can be combined with other abilities on other classes in a single gcd. That results in combined abilities having higher “burst potential.”

The extra damage a nightblade can achieve on a single ability will not outweigh the extra damage an ability like backlash or sub assault will add.

The tooltip was just a demonstration. My point was the 16k onslaught was possible because of the extra passives and buffs that a stamblade has but other classes don't. These extra advantages complement other skills as well, not just Onslaught.

If you want to compare combinations of skills, then a NB following an ultimate with a spectral bow will still deal considerably more damage than ultimate + sub assault or ultimate + backlash, or ultimate + haunting curse + frag for that matter. This is because Spectral Bow's tooltip is significantly higher than most burst skills in the game, and can be even further amplified by Incap's 20% extra damage, Onslaught's 85% penetration, and 10% more critical damage from a NB passive. Furthermore, a spectral bow or onslaught/incap from stealth is a guaranteed critical strike, which is a huge advantage compared to other classes that have to stack a lot of critical chance in order to reliably crit their attacks.

You’re making a claim that nightblades achieve a higher onslaught than any other class.

Of course we aren’t about making baseless claims, so what is the highest onslaught possible by each class?

(I’m assuming you know, otherwise you wouldn’t claim nightblades have the highest)

Yes, I'm making a claim that Nightblades achieve a higher Onslaught than any other class. I'd figured you'd want the numbers, so here's a more detailed post. It's going to be long, so if you skip any part then it's on you.

First, let's look at all the class passives and skills that maximizes damage of each stamina class, while ignoring CP passives that could potentially boost damage, such as Exploiter, and skills that increase penetration since Onslaught ignores resistance. Also ignore Minor Berserk, because it is accessible by all classes. We only want passives/buffs that only a few classes can have.

Nightblade:
1/ Master Assassin - Increases your weapon damage by 10% while in stealth
2/ Ambush - Afflicts Minor Vulnerability on your target, increasing their damage taken by 8%
3/ Hemorrhage - Increases your critical damage by 10%

Sorcerer:
1/ Energized - Increases your physical damage by 5%
2/ Amplitude - Increases your damage done against enemies by 1% for every 10% current health they have, up to 10% at 100% health
3/ Expert Mage - Increases your weapon damage by 2% per Sorcerer ability slotted
4/ Bound Armaments - Increases your max stamina by 8% while slotted

Templar:
1/ Piercing Spear - Increases your critical damage by 10%
2/ Balanced Warrior - Increases your weapon damage by 6%

Warden:
1/ Growing Swarm - Afflicts Minor Vulnerability on your target, increasing their damage taken by 8%
2/ Advanced Species - Increases your damage done by 2% for each Animal Companion ability slotted

Necromancer:
1/ Agony Totem - Afflicts Minor Vulnerability on your target, increasing their damage taken by 8%
2/ Detonating Siphon - Increases your damage done by 3% while slotted

Dragonknight:
1/ Mountain's Blessing - Gain Major Brutality, increasing your weapon damage by 10%
2/ Stone Giant - Increases damage taken by 45 for each stack of Stagger, up to 135 damage

Now that we've listed every single damage amplifier for each class, let's calculate how the tooltip would look. For demonstration purposes, let's assume we are using Fury + Briarheart, 5 medium 2 heavy, all impenetrable, all max stam glyphs, all infused jewelries, nirnhoned 2 handed weapon front bar, infused weapon damage glyph back bar, warrior mundus, orc race, and lava foot soup food on each class. Also assume that classes that have passives amplifying weapon damage by slotting a class skill will be slotting 5 class skills on their bar. Thus, the maximum WD and stamina for each of these classes will be:

Nightblade:
6910 WD and 34965 stamina

Sorcerer:
6910 WD and 37221 stamina

Templar:
6720 WD and 34965 stamina

Warden:
6434 WD and 34965 stamina

Necromancer:
6434 WD and 34965 stamina

Dragonknight:
6910 WD and 34695 stamina

To keep things simpler, let's ignore CPs that boost tooltip value such as Mighty and Master At Arms. Factor in every passive and skills that increases damage done, the Onslaught tooltip for each class will be:

Nightblade:
19570 damage

Sorcerer:
22818 damage

Templar:
19074 damage

Warden:
20384 damage

Necromancer:
19087 damage

Dragonknight:
19570 damage

From this list, we can see that at base damage, Sorcerer has the highest tooltip. However, we must also factor in critical damage tooltip. The base critical damage multiplier is 50%, and Nightblade and Templar get an extra 10%. Assuming that our target has zero critical resistance, then our new tooltip values will be:

Nightblade:
31312 damage

Sorcerer:
34227 damage

Templar:
30518.4 damage

Warden:
30576 damage

Necromancer:
28630.5 damage

Dragonknight:
29355 damage

Sorcerer still has the highest tooltip, but we have not taken into account of Minor Vulnerability, which increases damage taken by your target. This requires using this formula:

DamageTaken = (1 + CP.DamageTaken)*(1 + Skill.DamageTaken)*(1 + Buff.DamageTaken)*(1 + Item.DamageTaken)*(1 + Set.DamageTaken) + Buff.Vulnerability - 1

Since Battle Spirit reduces a target''s damage taken by 50%, the actual Onslaught tooltip will be halved. Factor in Minor Vulnerability however, a target affected by this debuff will take 42% less damage instead of 50%. In other words, Minor Vulnerability makes an affected target take 58% of the base damage instead of 50%.

DamageTaken = (1 + 0)*(1 + 0)*(1 - 0.5)*(1 + 0)*(1 + 0) + 0.08 - 1 = -0.42 or -42% damage taken

Thus, our new tooltip will be:

Nightblade:
18160.96 damage

Sorcerer:
17113.5 damage

Templar:
15259.2 damage

Warden:
17734.08 damage

Necromancer:
16605.69 damage

Dragonknight:
14677.5 damage

What do we take from these calculations? Well, against a full Health target, Sorcerer's onslaught does the most critical damage, but when you factor in Minor Vulnerability, Nightblade comes out on top. Keep in mind, we're using an unrealistic skill setup by having Sorcerer and Warden slot 5 class skills on their bar to maximize their damage. If we use a practical setup for both classes, which involves using 2 weapon skills for Sorcerer and Warden, then their Onslaught tooltip would be 16803 and 17089.41, respectively. Hence, the ranking for these tooltips should be:

Without Minor Vulnerability:
Sorcerer > Nightblade > Templar > Warden > Dragonknight > Necromancer

With Minor Vulnerability:
Nightblade > Warden > Sorcerer > Necromancer > Templar > Dragonknight

Minor vulnerability is incredibly strong, and when combined with a Nightblade's passives, you can slot any ultimate in the game and have your Nightblade deal unparalleled damage. We haven't even take into account of Spectral Bow and Surprise Attack, which also benefit tremendously from this debuff. That's why NB currently has the best burst in the game. If we use the WD and stamina stats above, a Warden using Sub Assault + Onslaught will only do a total of 30707.52 damage, compared to 36632.35 damage of a Nightblade's Onslaught from stealth + Spectral Bow (Spectral Bow loses the 10% weapon damage after using Onslaught because the player is no longer in stealth).

If you've made it this far, then I expect you to not have anymore questions.

Cheers

EDIT: I intentionally left out Minor Berserk from the calculations because as of current patch, all classes can access that buff. A Warden can either choose to use Camo Hunter or Bird of Prey, and that will slightly alter the final tooltip, but not significantly

MentalxHammer wrote: »

My mag necro is one of my strongest classes solo, there are a lot of skills that should be avoided. Maybe you're building yours incorrectly.

In fact mag necro is one of the few classes that can reliably turn and solo a group of 4 players and sweep them all with one ult.

kalunte wrote: »

I'd like to know how does magblades get to A in 6+ groups from B to 6- groups?

You should remove the small/large categories and just talk solo and group utility.

Crossed specs aren't so needed in 8+ groups since the number itself does the job and you also have enough ppl dedicated to each task, even tanks sometimes.

Anyway, good job for the visual😊