The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Maintenance for the week of April 29:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 29
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 29
Patch 5.2.5 PvP Tierlist
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Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).Edited by Nerftheforums on October 28, 2019 3:13PM1 -
Heresyall✭✭✭✭
@tolino magdk has the same mobility issue but has melee synergies like Talon and banner bringing more utility and burst to the group than Magden.Banner slows, gives major defile and gives a good synergy to spam(magdk are using swift trait in AoE RATS).Thats why magdk tier is A and magnecro is S (grave rubber being range),synergies on magnecro(heal or dd) are just easier to land than magdk ones.
Edited by Heresyall on October 28, 2019 3:32PM-Heresya EP MagNB/AR 50-Hȩresya EP MagNB/AR 50-Lonely Player EP MagNB/AR 50-The Godblade DC MagNB/ AR 50-Useless Class EP MagNB/AR 50-Crippled Class AD MagNB/AR 50-The Serpent EP MagNB/ AR 50-Harrowing Reaper EP MagNB / AR 50-Lord Herrington EP MagDK/AR 47-Mind Terror EP MagNecro/AR 35[center-Soul Siphoner EP MagNB/AR 38]Trueflame2 -
IndianaJames7✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »I believe this is a good list overall. And some people seem very salty to hear their class is not as weak as they make it out to be.Why are people so salty about this list? Seems fairly accurate to me. And anyway why get mad over a list? If you have a different opinion share it and say why.
Isn't it weird?
Only in ESO can you say something good about a class, or even that you just like a class, and you'll have people who play that same class just trash it.
Only in ESO.
I find this mostly with sorcs. I've mained a sorc since day 1, and anytime I've said anything positive about the class, here comes 50 people just trashing thier own class. I remember in Mirkmire talking about what sets sorc can use, and coming up with Armor Master as something to look at...and getting thrashed even for suggesting it. And yet, it was widely used.
Over the years though, I've learned there's kind of a weird manipulation of facts on the forum. You almost can't talk positive about your favorite class in fear it'll be nerfed, and you have to constantly talk trash about your favorite class in hope you'll see a buff. And getting lost in the shuffle is any true, real, discussion about over/underperforming classes or skills.
That's why this list will never be looked on favorably in these forums. Too many players with agendas. Hence the salt. Good luck with any real discussion here!
I'm out
I think this stems from the fact the a large proportion of people on the forums don’t believe ZOS devs play the game enough to actually understand balance. People believe that ZOS bases their balancing off of the feedback given on the forums, and that is why they are often so cutthroat against people of differing opinions.
For some all these posts represent is an opportunity to talk down the skill of their own class while talking up the skill of other classes. And for all we know that is the exact intent of the people who made this list.
The problem is the people who believe ZOS devs listen to outspoken players on the forum might be right, not that we will ever know as ZOS’ communication is so bad on pretty much all fronts. You can blame the individuals altering facts here, but I put it on the people who created this environment. There would be no point in people lying about class balance on the forums if ZOS was able to competently balance the game and communicate with the players.1 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Explain the reasoning behind the rankings a bit more! Like, just a couple sentences per class. Maybe a video would be best suited for it.
In any case, thank you guys for your efforts!
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Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on October 28, 2019 3:46PM3 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorcs are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
Yet, against any other class (even tho I don't really see a problem on killing magsorcs on my stamnb but ok) the nb has an easier time than the magsorc. However, if I remeber the thought process correctly, magsorc was degraded from S to A because of the nerf to shields they just received, because they have a harder time landing their burst compared to the S classes, and the trade off they make yo build survivability is higher than the one the other two classes do (stamnb basically is good to go with bloodspawn, and warden needs almost no investment whatsoever, while retaining a crazy offensive capacity).
Contestualize the scenario: in a 1v5, you think a magsorc will have the same chances as a stamnb or a stamden?3 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
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Master_Fluff✭✭✭✭Hmm, I only recognise two names in that list of youtubers. And I got killingblows on them both, so they can't be that good. Because I am myself not that good at pvp. Or the lag was perhaps my ally for a while.
Halcyon Black1 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I really dont want to argue, but you forgot about curse. NB won't cloak. Haunting Curse is a perfect counter Sorc has in its toolkit against NB. Stam NB especially, because you wont have enough magicka to use purge & cloak on a stamina build. And even if, somehow you run hybridized build with slightly more magicka, Sorc will most likely streak in your direction, stunning you & interrupting cloak again.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.1 -
nosecookie✭✭✭Read again what he posted please. Solo is mostly about how well what class is able to perform against the other classes as well.
Just thinking about it as if it is only sorc vs nb is narrow minded.Edited by nosecookie on October 28, 2019 4:20PM2 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I really dont want to argue, but you forgot about curse. NB won't cloak. Haunting Curse is a perfect counter Sorc has in its toolkit against NB. Stam NB especially, because you wont have enough magicka to use purge & cloak on a stamina build. And even if, somehow you run hybridized build with slightly more magicka, Sorc will most likely streak in your direction, stunning you & interrupting cloak again.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
Why do you even have purge on your bars? Man, curse is what breaks down a nb's fight against a magsorc (talking 1v1 here). You time your dodges and cloaks around the enemy's curse. A sorc can't do much without timing its frags with the curse, you basically have a timer that says "dodge".
You seem pretty new to the class, maybe you should looks at some videos of miruku or Sniker to help you out. Or, if you are on pc EU, I can teach you a couple tricks myself. I'm always up to help new players!2 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I really dont want to argue, but you forgot about curse. NB won't cloak. Haunting Curse is a perfect counter Sorc has in its toolkit against NB. Stam NB especially, because you wont have enough magicka to use purge & cloak on a stamina build. And even if, somehow you run hybridized build with slightly more magicka, Sorc will most likely streak in your direction, stunning you & interrupting cloak again.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
The thing is that the NB won't die to curse alone and with the minimum travel time on frags the sorc won't be able to kill the NB because there's at least 450ms between the cruse breaking cloak and frags hitting the NB.
Also shade makes it very hard for the sorc to hit the NB with streak (and a follow-up combo).
Simply by keeping vigor up and having rally ready to heal back up the NB can prevent the sorc from killing it as the sorc can't keep up constant pressure due to having to recast shields and the NB avoiding attacks via dodge and cloak.
This matchup was more balanced in the past and had patches where magsorc was favored but this is not the case in Dragonhold.
This isn't coming from the sorcs alone but also from the Nightblades and people without a bias to one of those classes.7 -
SenpaiNFT✭✭✭✭If you are a good Stamblade, facing a good player on ANY class in a 1vX, you are not going to complete the X, and thus class v class in this scenario becomes absolutely pointless.
If you are a good Stamblade, facing a bad player on ANY class in a 1vX, you are going to steamroll them.
This is the scenario you need to look at for class v class in a 1vX scenario, not a 1v1 of equivalent skill level because you would never win that X regardless of the class they are on.
Tbf, Stamblade is still one of the better dueling classes out there when built right, so I’m not sure where the argument is coming from to drop them down a tier. I’m pretty sure literally every single person who gave their 2 cents on this all said Stamblade is S, even Stamblade mains, for good reason.
It’s likely a L2P issue if you still argue Stamblade shouldn’t be S.3 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Luckylancer wrote: »Interesting list. Why stamdk is so low? He feels better generaly. Maybe 1 tier better. And how can stamden be S in solo? How can they kill someone better than others with last nerfs to stamden's best build? What is his superior kite options againts others?
Stamsorc so low, no wonders. They dont bring anything to group play and they are average at solo.
Stamdk lacks a reliable way of dealing with ranged attacks, wings don't count here as they come at the cost of survivability against other specs or offence as barspace is somewhat an issue.
Stamdk got it's rating mainly from a 1vX point of vier as it can give most classes a tough fight in 1v1s.
But in 1vX you lack the mobility to kite and thus run into situations where you can only tank but fail to kill people.
For an A tier spec they would have to have a good option of dealing with zergs or bring something outstanding with them which them.
Doesn’t this contradict Stamblade being in the top tier for solo builds? I mean, a stamblade has zero chance of taking out multiple players but they’re top tier because they can run away with cloak? Seems like Stamblade is being held to a different standard with the only answer being ‘because cloak’.
In general most rankings are fine, but Stamblade being too high and Stamplar too low stand out the most as ‘WTFs’. DK a little low too.
No, they are top tier because they are very mobile and they can kite/handle multiple opponents at once and take them out one by one. They are not held on a different standard. They were always top tier for solo open world and will always be there because of how the class is designed.
I don’t understand what you mean by this. It’s devolving into a NB vs Sorc thread, but I have never seen a StamNB take out multiple opponents.
Are you saying StamNB is S tier because they’re the best 1vX class? That would be one of the most questionable statements I’ve ever heard.
Or do you mean they can do well by choosing opponents and finding new players?Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten2 -
Vlad9425✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Seriously? Stam NB hasn’t been a top tier solo class for at least 6 months. It was a good class when Incap wasn’t a steaming pile garbage and when we actually had fracture and berserk to deal with all the broken perma blockers and shield stackers. My magpar melts people faster than my Stam NB which is meant to be an Assassin class.5 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I honestly don't get why people get so triggered over a list... Do they feel patronized? Are they scared their class will get nerfed? All these conspiracy theories are cracking me the F up, lol.
It is just a list, made by people who shared well informed opinions, and compiled it into a conclusion. It is not law or fact, and I imagine the creators also didn't mean it as such. Relax lmao.1 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.4 -
nosecookie✭✭✭Since I read the whole thread now: Yes, some people are actually scared that their class will get nerfed. The tinfoil hats are strong in some people.Edited by nosecookie on October 28, 2019 4:48PM4
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Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭Luckylancer wrote: »Interesting list. Why stamdk is so low? He feels better generaly. Maybe 1 tier better. And how can stamden be S in solo? How can they kill someone better than others with last nerfs to stamden's best build? What is his superior kite options againts others?
Stamsorc so low, no wonders. They dont bring anything to group play and they are average at solo.
Stamdk lacks a reliable way of dealing with ranged attacks, wings don't count here as they come at the cost of survivability against other specs or offence as barspace is somewhat an issue.
Stamdk got it's rating mainly from a 1vX point of vier as it can give most classes a tough fight in 1v1s.
But in 1vX you lack the mobility to kite and thus run into situations where you can only tank but fail to kill people.
For an A tier spec they would have to have a good option of dealing with zergs or bring something outstanding with them which them.
Doesn’t this contradict Stamblade being in the top tier for solo builds? I mean, a stamblade has zero chance of taking out multiple players but they’re top tier because they can run away with cloak? Seems like Stamblade is being held to a different standard with the only answer being ‘because cloak’.
In general most rankings are fine, but Stamblade being too high and Stamplar too low stand out the most as ‘WTFs’. DK a little low too.
No, they are top tier because they are very mobile and they can kite/handle multiple opponents at once and take them out one by one. They are not held on a different standard. They were always top tier for solo open world and will always be there because of how the class is designed.
I don’t understand what you mean by this. It’s devolving into a NB vs Sorc thread, but I have never seen a StamNB take out multiple opponents.
Are you saying StamNB is S tier because they’re the best 1vX class? That would be one of the most questionable statements I’ve ever heard.
Or do you mean they can do well by choosing opponents and finding new players?
Just write Sniker eso or miruku eso or hexys eso or gazette eso or scarr x eso or (insert nb content creator here) on YouTube and look.1 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Similar to other PvP games, the most experienced players are always the minority. However, ESO isn't that competitive, nor does it have an annual tournament between PvPers, thus it's not surprising that the majority of the player base don't know them. Yet, I'm fairly certain the people who are salty about this list and its makers are probably zerglings who have zero competency of the classes, and will have a 99.99% of dying to them in a 1v1 or GvG.Edited by StaticWave on October 28, 2019 5:05PMPlatform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc6 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
I dueled a cp 768 stamblade that regularly kills me with 16k onslaught, 9k surprise attacks. I was in heavy armor. No magsorc can even come close to that burst damage.
Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc5 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
That was onslaught that was killing you, not a NB really....StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
I dueled a cp 768 stamblade that regularly kills me with 16k onslaught, 9k surprise attacks. I was in heavy armor. No magsorc can even come close to that burst damage.
I mean, last time I have checked onslaught was not a NB exclusive, any stamina class / build can use it.Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on October 28, 2019 5:11PM4 -
Kalik_Gold✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sniker... ok. Who are the rest?
One thing I did notice from this list. Solo/small scale go Stamina. Large/Zerg go Magicka.
.Edited by Kalik_Gold on October 28, 2019 9:06PMMain: (PvP & PvE)PS5/NA - Ras Kalik a Redguard Templar - Daggerfall Covenant • 1550+ Champion
Ras Kalik a Redguard Templar, the Vestige
PvP:
Aurik Siet'ka a Redguard Necromancer
Cacique the Sage of Ius a Redguard Warden
Jux Blackheart a Redguard Nightblade
Goliath of Hammerfell a Redguard Dragonknight
Kaotik Von Dae'mon a Redguard* Sorcerer
PvP: (Specialty)
Tyrus Septim an Imperial Lycan Sorcerer
Tsar af-Bomba a Redguard Vampiric Nightblade
Movárth Piquine a Nord Vampiric Necromancer
Uri Ice-Heart the Twin a Nord Vampiric Warden
PvE:
Cinan Tharn an Imperial Dragonknight
Bates Vesuius of Dawnstar an Imperial Dragonknight
Herzog Zwei the Genesis an Akavari* Templar
Tav'i at-Shinji a Redguard** Warden
Lucky Hunch the Gambler - a Redguard Nightblade
Leveling...
Zenovia at-Tura a Redguard** Sorcerer
Yesi af-Kalik a Redguard Templar
Voa a Priest of Sep a Redguard* Necromancer
======
Passives of another race used. (RP)
*Breton
**Imperial
__________________________Backstories:_________________________
Ras Kalik the Vestige, a renown Redguard warrior; He has been blessed to save Tamriel from Molag Bal’s destructive Planemeld while reuniting the Five Companions. His further accomplishments after defeating Molag Bal, has been to stop the destruction of Morrowind, the Clockwork City, return order to the isle of Summerset and create a new king in Wrothgar and a queen in Elsywer. These events have made him a living legend and continue to lead him into new adventures throughout Tamriel, as well as into the hearts of many ladies including the Elf Queen, Aryenn. Over many years of adventurous travels, Ras Kalik had become a loner, until he re-visited his homeland of Alik'r.
Alik'r and it's cities were overrun by the undead Ra-Netu and therefore he made an allegiance with Alik'r's own Ash'abah tribe. These Ash'abah with his help, cleansed the city of Sentinel in Alik'r desert and it's surrounding areas of the undead brought to life by the Withered Hand. After rescuing Sentinel from the undead zombies, King Fahara’jad’s personal bodyguard the Goliath of Hammerfell, who was given this name by Imperials in the region; was asked to assist the tribe after learning of the defeat of the Withered Hand to the Ash'abah. Kalik promised Goliath he would task him with fighting living enemies on the battlefield if he so desired. Goliath being a Yokudan warrior wields a massive sword in respect to the Ansei, a gift given by the Imperial, Cinan Tharn. Not many soldiers are able to wield double two handed weapons, but Goliath loves to get up and personal in a fight, so he also carries a giant maul, both weapons laced with magical flames.
Jux Blackheart is a master thief that masquerades as a Bard at the Sisters of the Sands inn, with his younger sidekick Lucky Hunch for pilfering and gambling during this time. Jux was known to infiltrate any towns bank vault he came across and even delved into Ayelid ruins without detection. Kalik can vividly recall the night he met the famed thief. Jux found himself rummaging thru a slightly inebriated Kalik’s pocket for too long, on a full-mooned night and because of his greed and the glimmer of his golden armor in the moonlight. He lost his left pinky fingertip as a lesson! But in return, he gained a new friend, as it was his first time since a child being caught red-handed...
Upon arrival back in the Alik'r after many moons of adventuring, Ras Kalik ventures to Bergama. Visiting The Winking Jackal, he runs into Jux Blackheart, who introduces him to the coin game Crowns vs Forebearers (Heads vs Tails) and Golden Dwemer (RBG).... Jux constantly takes gold from the unfortunate thru theft or gambling, his biggest gambling victim is actually his partner in crime known as Lucky Hunch the Gambler. Lucky doesn't mind losing any gold coins to Jux... as Jux saved him from Altmer slavers in Summerset, by stealing a key and sending him on a boat to the mainland years prior. Lucky spent years in slavery with Khajiits in Summerset and picked up the art of subterfuge, using illusion magic disguises and stealing there.
Kaotik Von’Daemon an outcast, and a half-caste between a Breton mother and a Redguard father. Kaotik become a pariah due to his conjuration of Daedra pets. He was taught healing magic during his childhood years by his Breton mother. His father due to Redguard customs exiled him from the desert, sending him by wagon caravan to be a soldier in the war in Cyrodiil. He happened to meet Kalik while traveling from Alik'r, during this long caravan ride the caravan he was in was ambushed in Bangkorai by a group of bandits. Kalik by chance was also traveling thru this area on his Auridon Warhorse (which was bestowed to him by his friend, Darien Gautier). During this ambush, Kalik was able to rescue five hostages from the bandits. Kaotik was the first rescued, and Ras Kalik also recruited him to be in the Ash'abah tribe. These core Ash'abah tribesmen may never be seen together in travel as they partake in their own adventures but they always know what each other is doing; as they frequent a hideout in northern Bankorai. Their hideout an old Orc castle ruin, is kept watch by Nuzhimeh and she passes messages written between them, and frequently they also enjoy her company and her bed.
The other men rescued were a Dunmer banker, an Imperial mercenary and two other soldiers, an Imperial and a Breton Knight, stating proudly he was an Akavir descendent. One of the Imperials, Cinan, claimed to be related to Abnur Tharn the Battlemage of the Imperial Elder Council (One of Ras Kalik's mentors in the Five Companions). Cinan Tharn was really Abnur's drunkard treasure hunting illegitimate son. He was caught smuggling artifacts out of the Ayleid ruins in Cyrodiil and the elder of the two Imperials was Tyrus Septim a retired Imperial navy battle-mage (now a Lycan mercenary living in the city of Rimmen) and guard to the Tharn family. As much as Abnur Tharn hated his half-sister Euraxia, he dislikes his bas†ard son Cinan more. Tyrus now a ruffian and privateer had been paid by Abnur Tharn to watch over Cinan as much as possible. Cinan Tharn a drunkard, loves to drink at least a quarter barrel of Nord mead before he raids various delves and dungeons for relics to sell on the black market. Cinan also plans to one day, run an illegal gambling ring... which he thinks will net him more gold for his wares.
The Dunmer captive shackled to the Imperials looked familiar to Kalik from his time in Morrowind.... and he recognized him as Tythis Andromo a House Telvanni slave-owner and banker from Vvardenfell. During a rough interrogation to Tythis, Ras Kalik learnt why the bandits accosted him. The racist Dunmer was providing slaves as soldiers for the Three Banner War. The bandits were trying to negotiate a lucrative ransom for Andromo and the Imperials.... Kalik did not need any of this gold and he could never set Tythis free as he did with the two Imperial soldiers. His past involvement with slavery and war crimes, made Kalik's blood boil. He chose not to execute Tythis, as he figured the worse punishment for this former rich and opulent slave owner, is to now be an imprisoned servant for Ras Kalik and the tribe.
Herzog Zwei the Genesis a reknown Imperial/Akavirri battle-mage. His roots going back to Akavir through his mother’s bloodline. (His mother is descended from the Akaviri, through Versidue-Shae, and his Imperial father met her in Hakoshae, while traveling) Herzog earned the nickname "the Genesis" from his father as a child, as he was his mother's first born child, and last, as she tragically died in child-birth.
Herzog was seeking to purchase an artifact from Cinan Tharn, before their capture and was meeting Tyrus while in Rimmen, who introduced him to Cinan. This artifact being the Ayelid artifact; the sword Sinweaver. After their rescue and the exchange of gold to Cinan for the sword he decided to slip away before Ras Kalik could question who he was, and why the Akavir descendant really wanted that sword. Herzog was headed to Nagastani — An Ayleid ruin in eastern Cyrodiil. He had read in scrolls that the Sword would give him magical powers to meet his mothers spirit, if he performed an Ayleid ritual at an old shrine hidden there. Equipped with the artifact sword, he was off to start his own adventure but Ras Kalik, did indeed notice the sword however and instead sent a letter to Jux Blackheart (whom also was interested in Ayleid treasures), to attempt to find Herzog and acquire the sword. (*Azani Blackheart in Elder Scroll's Oblivion is Jux's descendant some 747 years later)
And so the Redguard, Imperial and Akaviri men parted ways ... While Ras Kalik went off to Elsweyr to encounter the latest threat to Tamriel, with Abnur Tharn and Sai Sahan - - DRAGONS!! Little did Ras Kalik know a few people were awaiting him in Senchal besides Sai. A necromancer survived his attack on the Withered Hand, while in Alik'r. The necromancer known as Auriek Siet'ka is also following him to the land of the Khajiits and Cacique the Sage of Ius a Shaman mystic who has become attuned spiritually with Tu'whacca (a Redguard God) and Ius (the Animal God), after being burned severely by the escaped dragons in Elsywer, is awaiting his arrival also. Aurik is a soldier of the Daggerfall Covenant that was introduced to necromancy while in the military, even though this magicka art is not spoken of openly by most of the Military leaders. He came to Alik'r and worked with the Withered Hand before Ras Kalik intervened on their plans. After the defeat of the Withered Hand, he aligned with the Worm Cult, and is constantly adapting and perfecting his necromantic arts.
After his journey to Rimmen, Kalik heads south to Senchal, in the southern regions of Elyswer. This new adventure will also put him on a path to meet a strange Redguard man. The stranger which was infected with an untreated Peyrite disease and also was the exiled from the Order of the New Moon cult, due to his sickness. He originally joined the cult to worship Laatvulon, the green dragon, mistakenly thinking it was the Daedric prince Peyrite. This confused and suffering cultist is known as Tsar al-Bomba and he is on a path to spread the disease. He was originally infected in Orccrest while recruiting members there. Can Ras Kalik and the shaman Cacique cure this poor soul, only time will tell. Little does Tsar al-Bomba know, that his infection is tied to Vampirism, and eventually the desire for blood will take over his mind. Senchal also offers Kalik his latest love interest... Aeliah. Whom he fondly led thru battles with the Dragonguard.
After the trek thru the heat, tropical and desert climate of Northern and Southern Elyswer, Ras Kalik heads north to the cold mountain range of Skyrim. His companion friend Lyris beckons for him with a letter sent by crow...
Movárth Piquine - a former vampire hunter (now infected), within the Fighter's Guild (and a secretive necromancer) was in Skyrim working with the Morthaal Guard. On a patrol mission he was caught in Frewien's ice curse outside of Morthaal with the frozen undead. Movárth's vampiric infection kept him from becoming an undead minion to the curse. He was able to use necromantic ice-magic to encase himself safely until he was freed with Freiwen, when the Vestige Ras Kalik broke the curse.
Uri Ice-Heart - brother of Urfon Ice-Heart. The twin sons of Atli and Oljourn Ice-Heart. The Ice-Heart family are originally from Markarth but now reside on the Jerall Mountain range near Cyrodiil, with their younger sister Araki. The twins had joined the Winterborn Reachmen while living in Markarth. Urfon pushed west to Orsinium with the Winterborn Clan, leaving his family behind. Uri stayed behind with his parents and sister to live in the family cabin for safety, avoiding the Vampire plague infiltrating the Reach. After news reaches him and he hears of Urfon's death... Uri leaves and heads home and is seeking vengeance. Meanwhile, his sister has also moved on to Windhelm to join the Fighter's guild. He will visit his sister, once before going to seek vengeance and she will craft him armor mixed with ice, called Stalhrim armor. Uri fearing death, after his brother's passing, falls victim to the convincing talk of Movárth at a Nordic tavern, and will also becomes a vampire.
{time moves forward through the hour-glass}0 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
That was onslaught that was killing you, not a NB really....StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
I dueled a cp 768 stamblade that regularly kills me with 16k onslaught, 9k surprise attacks. I was in heavy armor. No magsorc can even come close to that burst damage.
I mean, last time I have checked onslaught was not a NB exclusive, any stamina class / build can use it.
Funny enough, incap gives a higher damage multiplier than onslaught if you don't have 0 pen, and costs only half even if it offers a really *** gameplay experience.1 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭From my experience the majority of NB players have never figuered out how to effectively combine cloak, dodge roll and especially shade into a well rounded defense. Maybe thats why they don't see the full potential of the class in open world Cyro?
The NBs that have on the other hand have basically the strongest kiting kit in the entire game, only rivalled by sorcs using ball of lightning to break LOS (a lot of sorcs don't do this either and just streak in a straight line, which is easily countered by gapclosers), combined with dark conversion for easy sustain and heals.
Additionally, it feels like its much harder now to react to the relentless focus bow proc after it lost the minimum travel time. Can NB mains give their insight if this really is the case or is it just my imagination? (just to make this 100% clear I'm not implying any nerf demands here!)
P.S. @BohnT2 I have some more feedback points in mind, will send you a pm.PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK2 -
nosecookie✭✭✭@Tommy_The_Gun Yes, the list was made in mind with all the tools that are available to a class. Skills that any class can use sure went into the equation as well.
Your post ignores that every class has a different toolkit and ways they can go about things - even when using Onslaught.Edited by nosecookie on October 28, 2019 5:17PM1 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
That was onslaught that was killing you, not a NB really....StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
I dueled a cp 768 stamblade that regularly kills me with 16k onslaught, 9k surprise attacks. I was in heavy armor. No magsorc can even come close to that burst damage.
I mean, last time I have checked onslaught was not a NB exclusive, any stamina class / build can use it.
That's true, but those classes do less damage with the same skill. NB has access to minor vulnerability and 10% more crit damage. That amplifies the damage of onslaught a lot. They also have Spectral Bow and a great spammable, which both benefit tremendously from onslaught. That's why their burst is the best in the game. Even Spectral Bow alone can crit for 10k, which no other skill can do in comparison.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc0 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
The higher burst potential of NB was purely focused on the matchup sorc vs NB.
The sorc will never be able to line up its whole combo as the NB will be able to roll the frags due to the delay of them which means the sorc can only hit the NB with LA+streak+curse+meteor.
Or block the whole combo if the sorc decides to use frags rather than streak.
The NB on the other hand can repeatedly hit the sorc with med weave+Incap+bow due to a much shorter minimum traveltime of the bow.1
