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Patch 5.2.5 PvP Tierlist
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Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
I dueled a cp 768 stamblade that regularly kills me with 16k onslaught, 9k surprise attacks. I was in heavy armor. No magsorc can even come close to that burst damage.
And?
Completely irrelevant, but you lost to a better player who was probably on a better build. Perhaps roll dodge? Heavy armor..Bruh.. it’s onslaught!
The point was about burst damage. Any class that can stack damage has more burst potential than nightblades. You literally are making the point. Here it is again for those that missed it:
“The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities.”
You responded to that with tooltips. LolEdited by Royalthought on October 28, 2019 5:31PM0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭From my experience the majority of NB players have never figuered out how to effectively combine cloak, dodge roll and especially shade into a well rounded defense. Maybe thats why they don't see the full potential of the class in open world Cyro?
The NBs that have on the other hand have basically the strongest kiting kit in the entire game, only rivalled by sorcs using ball of lightning to break LOS (a lot of sorcs don't do this either and just streak in a straight line, which is easily countered by gapclosers), combined with dark conversion for easy sustain and heals.
Additionally, it feels like its much harder now to react to the relentless focus bow proc after it lost the minimum travel time. Can NB mains give their insight if this really is the case or is it just my imagination? (just to make this 100% clear I'm not implying any nerf demands here!)
P.S. @BohnT2 I have some more feedback points in mind, will send you a pm.
Well you’d be wrong. I’ve gone against every GvG there is on PC-NA, usually multiple guilds vs just ours and consistently win.
Most of these people are EU though, or aside from Fengrush only dabble in GvG and still building themselves up. Like Dottz is an excellent player and usually beats me every time I see him in a BG, but GvG he’s relatively new and still adapting strategy.
I’ve only been successfully ganked once in 9 months (I blame lag) and fear Stamblades less than half the classes 1v1. In BGs I’ve gone against them a lot, and the best ones, and they consistently get rocked.
If there was any truth to Stamblades being this good solo because of a strength against multiple opponents you’d see it in BGs. You don’t though do you. Their strength is being able to choose targets and find the new player, but that doesn’t mean it’s a strong class.Edited by Iskiab on October 28, 2019 5:31PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
nosecookie✭✭✭Although you do seem to realize that GvG and BGs are a different thing, you fail to realize that Cyrodiil - which the tier list is for - and BGs are a different thing as well.
Also ganking is it's own playstyle apart from 1vX, small- or bigscale. Someone knowledgeable about Cyrodiil would know that.Edited by nosecookie on October 28, 2019 5:34PM1 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
I dueled a cp 768 stamblade that regularly kills me with 16k onslaught, 9k surprise attacks. I was in heavy armor. No magsorc can even come close to that burst damage.
And?
Completely irrelevant, but you lost to a better player who was probably on a better build. Perhaps roll dodge?
The point was about burst damage. Any class that can stack damage has more burst potential than nightblades. You literally are making the point. Here it is again for those that missed it:
“The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities.”
You responded to that with tooltips. Lol
You don't need to tell me about skill level, or how to play the game, it's irrelevant. Did you completely miss the 16k onslaught mention? I was using the most damage set up in the game, but i still did considerably less damage compared to his. The class just has passives and skills that make them the best at dealing burst damage. Why did I respond with tooltips? Because NB are the best at dealing critical damage. No class in the game has access to that 10% more crit damage, and crits are what kills people, not normal damage.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc1 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭From my experience the majority of NB players have never figuered out how to effectively combine cloak, dodge roll and especially shade into a well rounded defense. Maybe thats why they don't see the full potential of the class in open world Cyro?
The NBs that have on the other hand have basically the strongest kiting kit in the entire game, only rivalled by sorcs using ball of lightning to break LOS (a lot of sorcs don't do this either and just streak in a straight line, which is easily countered by gapclosers), combined with dark conversion for easy sustain and heals.
Additionally, it feels like its much harder now to react to the relentless focus bow proc after it lost the minimum travel time. Can NB mains give their insight if this really is the case or is it just my imagination? (just to make this 100% clear I'm not implying any nerf demands here!)
P.S. @BohnT2 I have some more feedback points in mind, will send you a pm.
Well you’d be wrong. I’ve gone against every GvG there is on PC-NA, usually multiple guilds vs just ours and consistently win.
Most of these people are EU though, or aside from Fengrush only dabble in GvG and still building themselves up. Like Dottz is an excellent player and usually beats me every time I see him in a BG, but GvG he’s relatively new and still adapting strategy.
I’ve only been successfully ganked once in 9 months (I blame lag) and fear Stamblades less than half the classes 1v1. In BGs I’ve gone against them a lot, and the best ones, and they consistently get rocked.
If there was any truth to Stamblades being this good solo because of a strength against multiple opponents you’d see it in BGs. You don’t though do you. Their strength is being able to choose targets and find the new player, but that doesn’t mean it’s a strong class.
Bgs and GvG aren't really solo though. Refer to the small scale section for that (which kinda reflects your statement).1 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭2 really small examples on why stamnb is rated so highly for solo play (yes, the second clip is a 1vX, but I'm pretty sure you can understand where I come from):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-4NoLRkEGU
https://youtu.be/qIEHv3mwCeE 2 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭From my experience the majority of NB players have never figuered out how to effectively combine cloak, dodge roll and especially shade into a well rounded defense. Maybe thats why they don't see the full potential of the class in open world Cyro?
The NBs that have on the other hand have basically the strongest kiting kit in the entire game, only rivalled by sorcs using ball of lightning to break LOS (a lot of sorcs don't do this either and just streak in a straight line, which is easily countered by gapclosers), combined with dark conversion for easy sustain and heals.
Additionally, it feels like its much harder now to react to the relentless focus bow proc after it lost the minimum travel time. Can NB mains give their insight if this really is the case or is it just my imagination? (just to make this 100% clear I'm not implying any nerf demands here!)
P.S. @BohnT2 I have some more feedback points in mind, will send you a pm.
Well you’d be wrong. I’ve gone against every GvG there is on PC-NA, usually multiple guilds vs just ours and consistently win.
Most of these people are EU though, or aside from Fengrush only dabble in GvG and still building themselves up. Like Dottz is an excellent player and usually beats me every time I see him in a BG, but GvG he’s relatively new and still adapting strategy.
I’ve only been successfully ganked once in 9 months (I blame lag) and fear Stamblades less than half the classes 1v1. In BGs I’ve gone against them a lot, and the best ones, and they consistently get rocked.
If there was any truth to Stamblades being this good solo because of a strength against multiple opponents you’d see it in BGs. You don’t though do you. Their strength is being able to choose targets and find the new player, but that doesn’t mean it’s a strong class.
Wait, what? Who said anything about gank builds? My comment was about well rounded solo open world stamblade builds.
And in BGs you have dedicated groups spamming heals on their team mates and AOEs everywhere, while stamblades can't even really support their own group. So of course they wil be much worse in this context compared to fighting groups of randoms alone in Cyro without having to watch out for your own team mates (because you don't have any in solo play, duh).PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK3 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
I dueled a cp 768 stamblade that regularly kills me with 16k onslaught, 9k surprise attacks. I was in heavy armor. No magsorc can even come close to that burst damage.
And?
Completely irrelevant, but you lost to a better player who was probably on a better build. Perhaps roll dodge?
The point was about burst damage. Any class that can stack damage has more burst potential than nightblades. You literally are making the point. Here it is again for those that missed it:
“The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities.”
You responded to that with tooltips. Lol
You don't need to tell me about skill level, or how to play the game, it's irrelevant. Did you completely miss the 16k onslaught mention? I was using the most damage set up in the game, but i still did considerably less damage compared to his. The class just has passives and skills that make them the best at dealing burst damage. Why did I respond with tooltips? Because NB are the best at dealing critical damage. No class in the game has access to that 10% more crit damage, and crits are what kills people, not normal damage.
What did you say that you feel changes the originally point?
What does more damage:
A nightblades onslaught, with whatever sets you prefer?
Or
Onslaught and backlash/sub assault, etc combined?
You’re focusing on nightblades achieving a high tooltip value on a single ability. But the point is, that ability can be combined with other abilities on other classes in a single gcd. That results in combined abilities having higher “burst potential.”
The extra damage a nightblade can achieve on a single ability will not outweigh the extra damage an ability like backlash or sub assault will add.1 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
I dueled a cp 768 stamblade that regularly kills me with 16k onslaught, 9k surprise attacks. I was in heavy armor. No magsorc can even come close to that burst damage.
And?
Completely irrelevant, but you lost to a better player who was probably on a better build. Perhaps roll dodge?
The point was about burst damage. Any class that can stack damage has more burst potential than nightblades. You literally are making the point. Here it is again for those that missed it:
“The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities.”
You responded to that with tooltips. Lol
You don't need to tell me about skill level, or how to play the game, it's irrelevant. Did you completely miss the 16k onslaught mention? I was using the most damage set up in the game, but i still did considerably less damage compared to his. The class just has passives and skills that make them the best at dealing burst damage. Why did I respond with tooltips? Because NB are the best at dealing critical damage. No class in the game has access to that 10% more crit damage, and crits are what kills people, not normal damage.
What did you say that you feel changes the originally point?
What does more damage:
A nightblades onslaught, with whatever sets you prefer?
Or
Onslaught and backlash/sub assault, etc combined?
You’re focusing on nightblades achieving a high tooltip value on a single ability. But the point is, that ability can be combined with other abilities on other classes in a single gcd. That results in combined abilities having higher “burst potential.”
The extra damage a nightblade can achieve on a single ability will not outweigh the extra damage an ability like backlash or sub assault will add.
Nb has an easier time than templar to set up its burst and has one of the two best mobility skill sets in the game, that's why it's rated higher than templar. In 1vX, the offensive windows are shorter and shorter every patch, lining up your burst with a templar is harder in such scenario.Edited by Nerftheforums on October 28, 2019 6:05PM1 -
Tolino✭✭✭✭✭If there was any truth to Stamblades being this good solo because of a strength against multiple opponents you’d see it in BGs. You don’t though do you. Their strength is being able to choose targets and find the new player, but that doesn’t mean it’s a strong class.
The Stamnb is so good in solo play because of the good kiting skills! But if you do that in a Bg you force your teammates into the focus of the opponents (3vs4). At the same time you offer no support to your teammates!Magsorc: Tôlino (Wardless)
Magden: Wa-Uller
Stamsorc: Tolino Sturmfalke1 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
The higher burst potential of NB was purely focused on the matchup sorc vs NB.
The sorc will never be able to line up its whole combo as the NB will be able to roll the frags due to the delay of them which means the sorc can only hit the NB with LA+streak+curse+meteor.
Or block the whole combo if the sorc decides to use frags rather than streak.
The NB on the other hand can repeatedly hit the sorc with med weave+Incap+bow due to a much shorter minimum traveltime of the bow.
The ability to land a combo is dependent upon the player. Strictly opinion based.
Burst potential is what is possible. You’re making a case that it’s more difficult. While debatable due to incap/bow having cast/travel times too, but that’s not my debate. You stated:
“the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc”
The bold is, in fact, wrong. That’s all I corrected. I get where you’re coming from but Burst potential is what’s possible. Degree of difficulty doesn’t change what’s possible.0 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Nerftheforums wrote: »2 really small examples on why stamnb is rated so highly for solo play (yes, the second clip is a 1vX, but I'm pretty sure you can understand where I come from):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-4NoLRkEGUhttps://youtu.be/qIEHv3mwCeE
Literally the first clip in your post proves why Stamblade is currently the best class for Openworld solo PvP. Anyone that disagrees is just bad at the class. Shade + Cloak are one of the best kiting tools ESO, even more so than streak. Find a room or any spot that you can LoS, and you will be able to kite players for days, as demonstrated by the first video.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc0 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
The higher burst potential of NB was purely focused on the matchup sorc vs NB.
The sorc will never be able to line up its whole combo as the NB will be able to roll the frags due to the delay of them which means the sorc can only hit the NB with LA+streak+curse+meteor.
Or block the whole combo if the sorc decides to use frags rather than streak.
The NB on the other hand can repeatedly hit the sorc with med weave+Incap+bow due to a much shorter minimum traveltime of the bow.
The ability to land a combo is dependent upon the player. Strictly opinion based.
Burst potential is what is possible. You’re making a case that it’s more difficult. While debatable due to incap/bow having cast/travel times too, but that’s not my debate. You stated:
“the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc”
The bold is, in fact, wrong. That’s all I corrected. I get where you’re coming from but Burst potential is what’s possible. Degree of difficulty doesn’t change what’s possible.
It's not about difficulty, it's impossible for a sorc to hit his full burst on a NB played at full potential due to travel times, that's what matters in this damage potential comparison.
You can say that the term burst potential might have been a bad choice from my side which i can agree on.1 -
Hyzock✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
The higher burst potential of NB was purely focused on the matchup sorc vs NB.
The sorc will never be able to line up its whole combo as the NB will be able to roll the frags due to the delay of them which means the sorc can only hit the NB with LA+streak+curse+meteor.
Or block the whole combo if the sorc decides to use frags rather than streak.
The NB on the other hand can repeatedly hit the sorc with med weave+Incap+bow due to a much shorter minimum traveltime of the bow.
The ability to land a combo is dependent upon the player. Strictly opinion based.
Burst potential is what is possible. You’re making a case that it’s more difficult. While debatable due to incap/bow having cast/travel times too, but that’s not my debate. You stated:
“the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc”
The bold is, in fact, wrong. That’s all I corrected. I get where you’re coming from but Burst potential is what’s possible. Degree of difficulty doesn’t change what’s possible.
Whether mag sorc or stamblade has the biggest burst potential is debatable, different builds would probably show different results. Also, you're highlighting "burst potential" but you're leaving out "reliable" which is the biggest difference between stamblade burst and mag sorc burst. Mag sorc burst revolves around landing frags when your curse goes off but the curse is extremely telegraphed. This makes mag sorc burst very predictable. Stamblade, on the other hand, doesn't have those issues because there are no delayed abilities in its burst.
So the 1st part you highlighted is debatable, but stamblade definitely has way more reliable burst than mag sorc.PC EU - Frank the Potato - Stam DK1 -
Millz✭✭✭Stamsorc A tier solo KEKWBrenhji
PC NA - 400 cp
(Retired) XBOX NA - 1006 cp
---Say no to standardization---1 -
Demra✭✭✭Interesting list. Not sure if agree but the presentation is great. I would change the category of 6+ to duels though. For example magplar can be a beast in duels but solo vs groups is less effective than magsorc or something like this.0
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Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
The higher burst potential of NB was purely focused on the matchup sorc vs NB.
The sorc will never be able to line up its whole combo as the NB will be able to roll the frags due to the delay of them which means the sorc can only hit the NB with LA+streak+curse+meteor.
Or block the whole combo if the sorc decides to use frags rather than streak.
The NB on the other hand can repeatedly hit the sorc with med weave+Incap+bow due to a much shorter minimum traveltime of the bow.
The ability to land a combo is dependent upon the player. Strictly opinion based.
Burst potential is what is possible. You’re making a case that it’s more difficult. While debatable due to incap/bow having cast/travel times too, but that’s not my debate. You stated:
“the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc”
The bold is, in fact, wrong. That’s all I corrected. I get where you’re coming from but Burst potential is what’s possible. Degree of difficulty doesn’t change what’s possible.
It's not about difficulty, it's impossible for a sorc to hit his full burst on a NB played at full potential due to travel times, that's what matters in this damage potential comparison.
You can say that the term burst potential might have been a bad choice from my side which i can agree on.
That’s all I was stating. It doesn’t have higher burst potential. I agree with you there.
In terms of “ it's impossible for a sorc to hit his full burst on a NB played at full potential due to travel times, that's what matters in this damage potential comparison.”
That’s a matter of opinion. Individual results may vary.Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
The higher burst potential of NB was purely focused on the matchup sorc vs NB.
The sorc will never be able to line up its whole combo as the NB will be able to roll the frags due to the delay of them which means the sorc can only hit the NB with LA+streak+curse+meteor.
Or block the whole combo if the sorc decides to use frags rather than streak.
The NB on the other hand can repeatedly hit the sorc with med weave+Incap+bow due to a much shorter minimum traveltime of the bow.
The ability to land a combo is dependent upon the player. Strictly opinion based.
Burst potential is what is possible. You’re making a case that it’s more difficult. While debatable due to incap/bow having cast/travel times too, but that’s not my debate. You stated:
“the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc”
The bold is, in fact, wrong. That’s all I corrected. I get where you’re coming from but Burst potential is what’s possible. Degree of difficulty doesn’t change what’s possible.
Whether mag sorc or stamblade has the biggest burst potential is debatable, different builds would probably show different results. Also, you're highlighting "burst potential" but you're leaving out "reliable" which is the biggest difference between stamblade burst and mag sorc burst. Mag sorc burst revolves around landing frags when your curse goes off but the curse is extremely telegraphed. This makes mag sorc burst very predictable. Stamblade, on the other hand, doesn't have those issues because there are no delayed abilities in its burst.
So the 1st part you highlighted is debatable, but stamblade definitely has way more reliable burst than mag sorc.
Refer to above. Stack the abilities of all classes and it’s math. Not opinion.
Degree of difficulty comes down to the player.
Besides, why should “burst potential be narrowed down to sorc and nb anyway?
Colossus, avid and can pop simultaneously. Many classes can stack abilities.
It’s not class X vs class Y
It’s simply being able to stack multiple abilities results in having more burst potential than 1 ability alone.0 -
Hyzock✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
The higher burst potential of NB was purely focused on the matchup sorc vs NB.
The sorc will never be able to line up its whole combo as the NB will be able to roll the frags due to the delay of them which means the sorc can only hit the NB with LA+streak+curse+meteor.
Or block the whole combo if the sorc decides to use frags rather than streak.
The NB on the other hand can repeatedly hit the sorc with med weave+Incap+bow due to a much shorter minimum traveltime of the bow.
The ability to land a combo is dependent upon the player. Strictly opinion based.
Burst potential is what is possible. You’re making a case that it’s more difficult. While debatable due to incap/bow having cast/travel times too, but that’s not my debate. You stated:
“the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc”
The bold is, in fact, wrong. That’s all I corrected. I get where you’re coming from but Burst potential is what’s possible. Degree of difficulty doesn’t change what’s possible.
It's not about difficulty, it's impossible for a sorc to hit his full burst on a NB played at full potential due to travel times, that's what matters in this damage potential comparison.
You can say that the term burst potential might have been a bad choice from my side which i can agree on.
That’s all I was stating. It doesn’t have higher burst potential. I agree with you there.
In terms of “ it's impossible for a sorc to hit his full burst on a NB played at full potential due to travel times, that's what matters in this damage potential comparison.”
That’s a matter of opinion. Individual results may vary.Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
The higher burst potential of NB was purely focused on the matchup sorc vs NB.
The sorc will never be able to line up its whole combo as the NB will be able to roll the frags due to the delay of them which means the sorc can only hit the NB with LA+streak+curse+meteor.
Or block the whole combo if the sorc decides to use frags rather than streak.
The NB on the other hand can repeatedly hit the sorc with med weave+Incap+bow due to a much shorter minimum traveltime of the bow.
The ability to land a combo is dependent upon the player. Strictly opinion based.
Burst potential is what is possible. You’re making a case that it’s more difficult. While debatable due to incap/bow having cast/travel times too, but that’s not my debate. You stated:
“the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc”
The bold is, in fact, wrong. That’s all I corrected. I get where you’re coming from but Burst potential is what’s possible. Degree of difficulty doesn’t change what’s possible.
Whether mag sorc or stamblade has the biggest burst potential is debatable, different builds would probably show different results. Also, you're highlighting "burst potential" but you're leaving out "reliable" which is the biggest difference between stamblade burst and mag sorc burst. Mag sorc burst revolves around landing frags when your curse goes off but the curse is extremely telegraphed. This makes mag sorc burst very predictable. Stamblade, on the other hand, doesn't have those issues because there are no delayed abilities in its burst.
So the 1st part you highlighted is debatable, but stamblade definitely has way more reliable burst than mag sorc.
Refer to above. Stack the abilities of all classes and it’s math. Not opinion.
Degree of difficulty comes down to the player.
Besides, why should “burst potential be narrowed down to sorc and nb anyway?
Colossus, avid and can pop simultaneously. Many classes can stack abilities.
It’s not class X vs class Y
It’s simply being able to stack multiple abilities results in having more burst potential than 1 ability alone.
"Degree of difficulty comes down to the player" isn't entirely correct though, as it's way easier to avoid mag sorc burst than it is to avoid stamblade burst. Stamblade burst can only be reliably avoided if the stamblade is playing in a very predictable way, but no matter how good of a mag sorc you are, all your opponent has to do is count to 3 when you apply curse. And I'm not narrowing anything down, I'm just giving my opinion on the mag sorc burst vs stamblade burst discussion.PC EU - Frank the Potato - Stam DK0 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Additionally, it feels like its much harder now to react to the relentless focus bow proc after it lost the minimum travel time. Can NB mains give their insight if this really is the case or is it just my imagination? (just to make this 100% clear I'm not implying any nerf demands here!)
Well, yes, being able to - once again - land the bow proc on someone who is not (brain) afk or completely out of stam was the whole purpose of this change. Removing the delay means there is less time to react, especially when it is used at melee range. When cast from higher range it is still not that hard to avoid tho, since it is not a particular fast moving projectile and the greater the distance, the higher the travel time.
It was a seemingly small change, but the impact is definitely noticeable.StaticWave wrote: »
You don't need to tell me about skill level, or how to play the game, it's irrelevant. Did you completely miss the 16k onslaught mention? I was using the most damage set up in the game, but i still did considerably less damage compared to his. The class just has passives and skills that make them the best at dealing burst damage. Why did I respond with tooltips? Because NB are the best at dealing critical damage. No class in the game has access to that 10% more crit damage, and crits are what kills people, not normal damage.
Templars have a 10% crit dmg passive too. And other classes have different dmg passives. I don't know which class gains the most dmg from passives and i wouldn't completely rule out nb in this regard, but there is a lot more to consider than simply that one passive and i'm quite sure other classes can reach 16k onslaughts too.
Very interesting thread btw. I like it. Especially the thoughts and reasons behind that list.
2 -
Vlad9425✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
That was onslaught that was killing you, not a NB really....StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
I dueled a cp 768 stamblade that regularly kills me with 16k onslaught, 9k surprise attacks. I was in heavy armor. No magsorc can even come close to that burst damage.
I mean, last time I have checked onslaught was not a NB exclusive, any stamina class / build can use it.
Funny enough, incap gives a higher damage multiplier than onslaught if you don't have 0 pen, and costs only half even if it offers a really *** gameplay experience.
How is Incap even worth discussing compared to Onslaught? Incap died the day they changed it to a worthless silence and then when it was dead they decided to make sure it was dead by adding a cast time to it. I haven't seen Incap in a death recap in honestly like a year...3 -
nosecookie✭✭✭Then all you really do is fight bad nightblades. @Vlad9425
Watch snikers latest build video. He tends to explain everything in detail.Edited by nosecookie on October 28, 2019 6:49PM0 -
Vlad9425✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@nosecookie I don't need to watch a good player killing potatoes which he could also do on any other class aside from NB. The 1% of players that can make an NB look godlike can also make any class look godlike and this is the reason why people ask for a class to be nerfed because they are being killed by players who are amazing at the game so they immediately think the class is OP which is wrong.
4 -
nosecookie✭✭✭Your train of thought is wrong. The best players at a class are the showcase at how good a class can perform. They are the benchmark. If you try to balance for people that play below that level (which is most), you're balancing for casual play.
Also you said something along the lines that Incap is worse than Onlsaught. I gave you a source where you could look for yourself why it isn't the case. Just wanted to help.Edited by nosecookie on October 28, 2019 7:18PM2 -
Vlad9425✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭nosecookie wrote: »Your train of thought is wrong. The best players at a class are the showcase at how good a class can perform. They are the benchmark. If you try to balance for people that play below that level (which is most), you're balancing for casual play.
Also you said something along the lines that Incap is worse than Onlsaught. I gave you a source where you could look for yourself why it isn't the case. Just wanted to help.
Oh stop embarrassing yourself, if you think Incap is better than Onslaught then you either don't play the game enough and certainly don't play the NB class or you're just here trolling. Also nobody on here needs you telling them that their "train of thought is wrong" based on some video you watched where presumably the guy that made it cut out all the bits where he gets killed and shoves in the best clips of him killing potatoes which as I said can be done on any class. If the "benchmark" is putting together a few of the best clips then by that logic nearly everyone who PvPs can throw together clips of them killing bad players and you immediately consider that a benchmark LOL.5 -
nosecookie✭✭✭Well, there is this build video of the guy I told you about who plays better than both of us and also definitely played more - you called him one of the 1% - and I told you about this. If you don't like my reasoning, you can listen to his.
And just so you know, a build video generally features a build, no killing montages. That's also why I told you that he explains stuff in depth.
Also when you think that him or these players that made the guide are generally only good at killing bads, why don't you hit them up and ask maybe for some duels. - Friendly ones, I hope.
Maybe if you have actual proof after getting stomped, you would be more inclined to acknowledge their skills.
Here I linked it for you, if you're actually interested in broadening your horizon.Edited by nosecookie on October 28, 2019 8:16PM0 -
Hexquisite✭✭✭✭I am not sure why people are so angry about this list, I have enjoyed reading most of the comments.
I would also like to metnion that it is not just server difference, but also time slot difference. Most of the best players only play outside of prime time due to lag. I work an erratic job and get to play at all different hours...
I can tell you that PC NA is completely different at 11 PM Pacific, than 6 PM pacific. This is when you will see some of true masters of their class. all classes. Solo players who aren't looking to kill potatoes as well as small scalers tend to hang out in certain areas, go to one of those areas, and either fight, or, watch..most of the time people can watch without getting ganked or attacked. Also, playstyle seems to change away from ganker NBs at this time, if you are on the right faction lol, but you should be able to see some non ganking NBS in action.Edited by Hexquisite on October 28, 2019 7:51PMPC NA~Ethereal Traders Union~~Spicy Economics~~Tropic Thunder~~Us Ghosts~1 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭nosecookie wrote: »Your train of thought is wrong. The best players at a class are the showcase at how good a class can perform. They are the benchmark. If you try to balance for people that play below that level (which is most), you're balancing for casual play.
Also you said something along the lines that Incap is worse than Onlsaught. I gave you a source where you could look for yourself why it isn't the case. Just wanted to help.
Oh stop embarrassing yourself, if you think Incap is better than Onslaught then you either don't play the game enough and certainly don't play the NB class or you're just here trolling. Also nobody on here needs you telling them that their "train of thought is wrong" based on some video you watched where presumably the guy that made it cut out all the bits where he gets killed and shoves in the best clips of him killing potatoes which as I said can be done on any class. If the "benchmark" is putting together a few of the best clips then by that logic nearly everyone who PvPs can throw together clips of them killing bad players and you immediately consider that a benchmark LOL.
Incaps 20% damage amplification is a vulnerability effect, which means it's getting directly subtracted from CP mitigation, which makes it so much more potent in PvP than flat penetration for example from onslaught.
The 20% damage amplification makes up for around 15-16k flat pen, and considering you'd want to stack penetration on a stamnb anyway because its the best stat to increase your damage, you'd prefer to use incap in such scenario.
With only Spriggan, a maul and about 20 points into the penetration star you end up penetrating a 24k resistance target for a whole 12554
If you were to use onslaught now, you'd only get a pen boost of about 11,4k.
Incap out damages that.
Now someone would probably argue "but but but why use spriggan's with 2h ult?"
You wouldn't. Even if you wouldn't use spriggan, onslaught would give you 15k pen then, still less damage than incap.
On top of that Incap is a kit enabler for Nightblades, without a damage amplifier, a NB hardly does any damage
Having the enabler being so cheap is very important for the classes pace in PvP for soloing. Incap and bow proc is basically like a bolt action gun. You shoot and have to back off to reload. Onslaught makes that reloading alot alot alot slower.
The only thing that's better about onslaught is the initial damage, but considering running incap allows you to stack penetration sets, the gap closes a bit there too. Of course onslaught still hits a *** of harder, but like, do you really want it if you have other skills that hit just as hard after an incap? And don't forget that literally everybody runs pen cp star, which becomes useless, together with the maul, when onslaught is used.
-SnikerEdited by Nerftheforums on October 28, 2019 8:40PM7 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭nosecookie wrote: »Although you do seem to realize that GvG and BGs are a different thing, you fail to realize that Cyrodiil - which the tier list is for - and BGs are a different thing as well.
Also ganking is it's own playstyle apart from 1vX, small- or bigscale. Someone knowledgeable about Cyrodiil would know that.
Well let me simplify it for you, you have Stamblades down as top tier for solo play.
Are Stamblades great in duels? No
Are Stamblades great in BGs? No
Are Stamblades a threat to experienced players, moreso than other classes? No
So where are the comments about them being strong vs multiple opponents, much less one opponent coming from? The only thing left is choosing engagements to pick off newer players in cyrodiil.Edited by Iskiab on October 28, 2019 8:49PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten2 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭nosecookie wrote: »Although you do seem to realize that GvG and BGs are a different thing, you fail to realize that Cyrodiil - which the tier list is for - and BGs are a different thing as well.
Also ganking is it's own playstyle apart from 1vX, small- or bigscale. Someone knowledgeable about Cyrodiil would know that.
Well let me simplify it for you, you have Stamblades down as top tier for solo play.
Are Stamblades great in duels? No
Are Stamblades great in BGs? No
Are Stamblades a threat to experienced players, moreso than other classes? No
So where are the comments about them being strong vs multiple opponents, much less one opponent coming from? The only thing left is choosing engagements to pick off newer players in cyrodiil.
NBs can be good in BGs the following screenshots come from high MMR BGs on PC EU.
The matches were played to support NBs strength in solo play by separating people and killing them one by one
4 -
Rikumaru✭✭✭✭✭
✭From my experience the majority of NB players have never figuered out how to effectively combine cloak, dodge roll and especially shade into a well rounded defense. Maybe thats why they don't see the full potential of the class in open world Cyro?
The NBs that have on the other hand have basically the strongest kiting kit in the entire game, only rivalled by sorcs using ball of lightning to break LOS (a lot of sorcs don't do this either and just streak in a straight line, which is easily countered by gapclosers), combined with dark conversion for easy sustain and heals.
Additionally, it feels like its much harder now to react to the relentless focus bow proc after it lost the minimum travel time. Can NB mains give their insight if this really is the case or is it just my imagination? (just to make this 100% clear I'm not implying any nerf demands here!)
P.S. @BohnT2 I have some more feedback points in mind, will send you a pm.
Well you’d be wrong. I’ve gone against every GvG there is on PC-NA, usually multiple guilds vs just ours and consistently win.
Most of these people are EU though, or aside from Fengrush only dabble in GvG and still building themselves up. Like Dottz is an excellent player and usually beats me every time I see him in a BG, but GvG he’s relatively new and still adapting strategy.
I’ve only been successfully ganked once in 9 months (I blame lag) and fear Stamblades less than half the classes 1v1. In BGs I’ve gone against them a lot, and the best ones, and they consistently get rocked.
If there was any truth to Stamblades being this good solo because of a strength against multiple opponents you’d see it in BGs. You don’t though do you. Their strength is being able to choose targets and find the new player, but that doesn’t mean it’s a strong class.
Stamblade has always been one of the strongest classes in solo open world. Reason it's bad in BGs is because BGs is not solo, it's 4v4v4.Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.3