The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Patch 5.2.5 PvP Tierlist
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Vlad9425✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StaticWave wrote: »ThePhantomThorn wrote: »can we please stop just ranting about burst combos and nb vs sorc.
imean why...
Because apparently a few people believe that NB is trash and shouldn't be top tier in the Solo category. Then it degenerated into a Sorc vs NB thread and how either class can do the most burst damage.
NB and Sorc players have always hated each other and it's kinda amusing at this point.4 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Luckylancer wrote: »Interesting list. Why stamdk is so low? He feels better generaly. Maybe 1 tier better. And how can stamden be S in solo? How can they kill someone better than others with last nerfs to stamden's best build? What is his superior kite options againts others?
Stamsorc so low, no wonders. They dont bring anything to group play and they are average at solo.
Stamdk lacks a reliable way of dealing with ranged attacks, wings don't count here as they come at the cost of survivability against other specs or offence as barspace is somewhat an issue.
Stamdk got it's rating mainly from a 1vX point of vier as it can give most classes a tough fight in 1v1s.
But in 1vX you lack the mobility to kite and thus run into situations where you can only tank but fail to kill people.
For an A tier spec they would have to have a good option of dealing with zergs or bring something outstanding with them which them.
Doesn’t this contradict Stamblade being in the top tier for solo builds? I mean, a stamblade has zero chance of taking out multiple players but they’re top tier because they can run away with cloak? Seems like Stamblade is being held to a different standard with the only answer being ‘because cloak’.
In general most rankings are fine, but Stamblade being too high and Stamplar too low stand out the most as ‘WTFs’. DK a little low too.
No, they are top tier because they are very mobile and they can kite/handle multiple opponents at once and take them out one by one. They are not held on a different standard. They were always top tier for solo open world and will always be there because of how the class is designed.
Saying that, “they are” isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight.
I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic. They are not top tier in group play. You can literally see that in the rankings. Please read before you respond.
And yes NBs are not S tier vs coordinated groups. No class can handle coordinated groups. The criteria for solo play are prety clear. Ability to self sustain, stay alive, kiting and fighting multiple people of lower skill level than you because you are not going to 1vX people of equal skill level no matter which class you are playing. The two classes which have always stood on top in solo play despite the nerfs, are stamblades and mag sorcs because of how well they are designed for solo play. They just fit those criteria perfectly.
Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument. You are literally putting ur own criteria with the sole purpose of saying that stamblades arent good.
You:
“I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic.”
”Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument.”
Me:
“And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh.”
When you invent an argument just to have something to respond to it gets silly. Here’s your own advice.
“Please read before you respond.”
Also you in the same post : " Saying that, they are isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight. "
Dont have reading issues at all. I mean ur post is right there, you can clearly see that. You are just cherry picking sentences from ur post to make ur argument. But yeah whatever floats ur boat. On the actual topic tho, seems like you cant tell what solo play actually is or at least how its viewed on the rankings.
Bruh, you’ve lost context. Everything you’ve highlighted that I stated is true. What you falsely accused me of saying is this:
“Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups”
You catch that? “In groups.” Nothing you quoted, literally nowhere, did I ever claim nightblades aren’t S in solo because they aren’t good IN GROUPS!.
My take on solo was exclusively about facing groups. Solo nightblades vs groups. 1vX
So.. leave me out of YOUR argument. You’re responding to something YOU invented.
I havent lost context. I was strictly speaking about stamblades being top tier in solo play and literally in the first paragraph of ur post you said stamblades are the weaker class for high end BGs/group play. Umm what?
Your take on 1vX is about 1 person fighting multiple organised people of high skill level. That concept doesnt even exist in the game no matter which class you are playing. The issue isnt that i responded to something i invented. The issue is that you invented ur own category called "fighting organised groups of high skill level" and tried to base the performance of solo NB off of that category. Well newsflash buddy, all classes are D tier in that category. You are not going to 1vX organised people of high skill level no matter which class u are playing.
Give it a rest. This is specifically what you said.
“Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups”
This is a false accusation. Point out where I made this claim.
I’ll wait..1 -
SenpaiNFT✭✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Luckylancer wrote: »Interesting list. Why stamdk is so low? He feels better generaly. Maybe 1 tier better. And how can stamden be S in solo? How can they kill someone better than others with last nerfs to stamden's best build? What is his superior kite options againts others?
Stamsorc so low, no wonders. They dont bring anything to group play and they are average at solo.
Stamdk lacks a reliable way of dealing with ranged attacks, wings don't count here as they come at the cost of survivability against other specs or offence as barspace is somewhat an issue.
Stamdk got it's rating mainly from a 1vX point of vier as it can give most classes a tough fight in 1v1s.
But in 1vX you lack the mobility to kite and thus run into situations where you can only tank but fail to kill people.
For an A tier spec they would have to have a good option of dealing with zergs or bring something outstanding with them which them.
Doesn’t this contradict Stamblade being in the top tier for solo builds? I mean, a stamblade has zero chance of taking out multiple players but they’re top tier because they can run away with cloak? Seems like Stamblade is being held to a different standard with the only answer being ‘because cloak’.
In general most rankings are fine, but Stamblade being too high and Stamplar too low stand out the most as ‘WTFs’. DK a little low too.
No, they are top tier because they are very mobile and they can kite/handle multiple opponents at once and take them out one by one. They are not held on a different standard. They were always top tier for solo open world and will always be there because of how the class is designed.
Saying that, “they are” isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight.
I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic. They are not top tier in group play. You can literally see that in the rankings. Please read before you respond.
And yes NBs are not S tier vs coordinated groups. No class can handle coordinated groups. The criteria for solo play are prety clear. Ability to self sustain, stay alive, kiting and fighting multiple people of lower skill level than you because you are not going to 1vX people of equal skill level no matter which class you are playing. The two classes which have always stood on top in solo play despite the nerfs, are stamblades and mag sorcs because of how well they are designed for solo play. They just fit those criteria perfectly.
Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument. You are literally putting ur own criteria with the sole purpose of saying that stamblades arent good.
You:
“I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic.”
”Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument.”
Me:
“And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh.”
When you invent an argument just to have something to respond to it gets silly. Here’s your own advice.
“Please read before you respond.”
Also you in the same post : " Saying that, they are isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight. "
Dont have reading issues at all. I mean ur post is right there, you can clearly see that. You are just cherry picking sentences from ur post to make ur argument. But yeah whatever floats ur boat. On the actual topic tho, seems like you cant tell what solo play actually is or at least how its viewed on the rankings.
Bruh, you’ve lost context. Everything you’ve highlighted that I stated is true. What you falsely accused me of saying is this:
“Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups”
You catch that? “In groups.” Nothing you quoted, literally nowhere, did I ever claim nightblades aren’t S in solo because they aren’t good IN GROUPS!.
My take on solo was exclusively about facing groups. Solo nightblades vs groups. 1vX
So.. leave me out of YOUR argument. You’re responding to something YOU invented.
I havent lost context. I was strictly speaking about stamblades being top tier in solo play and literally in the first paragraph of ur post you said stamblades are the weaker class for high end BGs/group play. Umm what?
Your take on 1vX is about 1 person fighting multiple organised people of high skill level. That concept doesnt even exist in the game no matter which class you are playing. The issue isnt that i responded to something i invented. The issue is that you invented ur own category called "fighting organised groups of high skill level" and tried to base the performance of solo NB off of that category. Well newsflash buddy, all classes are D tier in that category. You are not going to 1vX organised people of high skill level no matter which class u are playing.
I literally stated the exact same thing multiple pages back. People just ignore things that outright discredit their entire argument.If you are a good Stamblade, facing a good player on ANY class in a 1vX, you are not going to complete the X, and thus class v class in this scenario becomes absolutely pointless.
If you are a good Stamblade, facing a bad player on ANY class in a 1vX, you are going to steamroll them.
This is the scenario you need to look at for class v class in a 1vX scenario, not a 1v1 of equivalent skill level because you would never win that X regardless of the class they are on.
Tbf, Stamblade is still one of the better dueling classes out there when built right, so I’m not sure where the argument is coming from to drop them down a tier. I’m pretty sure literally every single person who gave their 2 cents on this all said Stamblade is S, even Stamblade mains, for good reason.
It’s likely a L2P issue if you still argue Stamblade shouldn’t be S.
Edited by SenpaiNFT on October 29, 2019 10:04PM1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Luckylancer wrote: »Interesting list. Why stamdk is so low? He feels better generaly. Maybe 1 tier better. And how can stamden be S in solo? How can they kill someone better than others with last nerfs to stamden's best build? What is his superior kite options againts others?
Stamsorc so low, no wonders. They dont bring anything to group play and they are average at solo.
Stamdk lacks a reliable way of dealing with ranged attacks, wings don't count here as they come at the cost of survivability against other specs or offence as barspace is somewhat an issue.
Stamdk got it's rating mainly from a 1vX point of vier as it can give most classes a tough fight in 1v1s.
But in 1vX you lack the mobility to kite and thus run into situations where you can only tank but fail to kill people.
For an A tier spec they would have to have a good option of dealing with zergs or bring something outstanding with them which them.
Doesn’t this contradict Stamblade being in the top tier for solo builds? I mean, a stamblade has zero chance of taking out multiple players but they’re top tier because they can run away with cloak? Seems like Stamblade is being held to a different standard with the only answer being ‘because cloak’.
In general most rankings are fine, but Stamblade being too high and Stamplar too low stand out the most as ‘WTFs’. DK a little low too.
No, they are top tier because they are very mobile and they can kite/handle multiple opponents at once and take them out one by one. They are not held on a different standard. They were always top tier for solo open world and will always be there because of how the class is designed.
Saying that, “they are” isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight.
I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic. They are not top tier in group play. You can literally see that in the rankings. Please read before you respond.
And yes NBs are not S tier vs coordinated groups. No class can handle coordinated groups. The criteria for solo play are prety clear. Ability to self sustain, stay alive, kiting and fighting multiple people of lower skill level than you because you are not going to 1vX people of equal skill level no matter which class you are playing. The two classes which have always stood on top in solo play despite the nerfs, are stamblades and mag sorcs because of how well they are designed for solo play. They just fit those criteria perfectly.
Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument. You are literally putting ur own criteria with the sole purpose of saying that stamblades arent good.
You:
“I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic.”
”Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument.”
Me:
“And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh.”
When you invent an argument just to have something to respond to it gets silly. Here’s your own advice.
“Please read before you respond.”
Also you in the same post : " Saying that, they are isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight. "
Dont have reading issues at all. I mean ur post is right there, you can clearly see that. You are just cherry picking sentences from ur post to make ur argument. But yeah whatever floats ur boat. On the actual topic tho, seems like you cant tell what solo play actually is or at least how its viewed on the rankings.
Bruh, you’ve lost context. Everything you’ve highlighted that I stated is true. What you falsely accused me of saying is this:
“Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups”
You catch that? “In groups.” Nothing you quoted, literally nowhere, did I ever claim nightblades aren’t S in solo because they aren’t good IN GROUPS!.
My take on solo was exclusively about facing groups. Solo nightblades vs groups. 1vX
So.. leave me out of YOUR argument. You’re responding to something YOU invented.
I havent lost context. I was strictly speaking about stamblades being top tier in solo play and literally in the first paragraph of ur post you said stamblades are the weaker class for high end BGs/group play. Umm what?
Your take on 1vX is about 1 person fighting multiple organised people of high skill level. That concept doesnt even exist in the game no matter which class you are playing. The issue isnt that i responded to something i invented. The issue is that you invented ur own category called "fighting organised groups of high skill level" and tried to base the performance of solo NB off of that category. Well newsflash buddy, all classes are D tier in that category. You are not going to 1vX organised people of high skill level no matter which class u are playing.
Give it a rest. This is specifically what you said.
“Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups”
This is a false accusation. Point out where I made this claim.
I’ll wait..
In literally the exact first paragraph where you talked about NBs being weaker in high end BGs/group play. At this point you are playing with words creating arguments just for the sake of arguing. Seems like you are the one who lost the context of the conversation. If you want to go back to the actual conversation by all means go ahead but if you are just going to continue playing with words and crating arguments just for the sake of arguing you are the one who should leave me out of it.0 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Honestly man, I have to agree with @pieratsos . Stamblades are literally made for playing solo. I can link you endless videos of people playing stamblade at a high level in open world cyrodiil, taking out target after target, kiting them around and eliminating them 1 by 1. In the past I have played stamblade for ages and it is so easy to play solo, compared to most other classes. Of course you don't kill them all at once, thats not what 1vx/solo play is about.Royalthought wrote: »Luckylancer wrote: »Interesting list. Why stamdk is so low? He feels better generaly. Maybe 1 tier better. And how can stamden be S in solo? How can they kill someone better than others with last nerfs to stamden's best build? What is his superior kite options againts others?
Stamsorc so low, no wonders. They dont bring anything to group play and they are average at solo.
Stamdk lacks a reliable way of dealing with ranged attacks, wings don't count here as they come at the cost of survivability against other specs or offence as barspace is somewhat an issue.
Stamdk got it's rating mainly from a 1vX point of vier as it can give most classes a tough fight in 1v1s.
But in 1vX you lack the mobility to kite and thus run into situations where you can only tank but fail to kill people.
For an A tier spec they would have to have a good option of dealing with zergs or bring something outstanding with them which them.
Doesn’t this contradict Stamblade being in the top tier for solo builds? I mean, a stamblade has zero chance of taking out multiple players but they’re top tier because they can run away with cloak? Seems like Stamblade is being held to a different standard with the only answer being ‘because cloak’.
In general most rankings are fine, but Stamblade being too high and Stamplar too low stand out the most as ‘WTFs’. DK a little low too.
No, they are top tier because they are very mobile and they can kite/handle multiple opponents at once and take them out one by one. They are not held on a different standard. They were always top tier for solo open world and will always be there because of how the class is designed.
Saying that, “they are” isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight.
I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic. They are not top tier in group play. You can literally see that in the rankings. Please read before you respond.
And yes NBs are not S tier vs coordinated groups. No class can handle coordinated groups. The criteria for solo play are prety clear. Ability to self sustain, stay alive, kiting and fighting multiple people of lower skill level than you because you are not going to 1vX people of equal skill level no matter which class you are playing. The two classes which have always stood on top in solo play despite the nerfs, are stamblades and mag sorcs because of how well they are designed for solo play. They just fit those criteria perfectly.
Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument. You are literally putting ur own criteria with the sole purpose of saying that stamblades arent good.
My point is if Stamblades were good against multiple opponents you’d see it in BGs. Every NB I’ve seen or spoken with chooses targets based off their health and tankiness and gives up if they think it’ll be a challenge or a fight they won’t win.
There’s a huge difference between multiple people being in the vacinity and picking off one soft target and taking on multiple targets 1vX. If Stamblades were truly good against multiple opponents it would come across in BGs, but they aren’t, so it doesn’t. Saying they’re good at their niche is one thing. Saying they’re good in general against multiple people is nonsense.
You also assume I’m a stamblade, I am not, and have no clue where I play on PC-NA. You’re just guessing and assuming arrogance will deter people from dissenting, because you think you’re talking from a position of knowledge of being in the know, when actually you’re just parroting others and demonstrating the inability to reframe the strengths of classes with changes to the game.
I’ve seen the type a lot before, until someone tells you things have changed who’s a better player than you and you probably kiss their butt you won’t believe it.
As for BGs, well I’m PC-NA so have no idea who those names are or their skill levels. On PC-NA you would never see a stamblade do that well in higher MMR, only low or beginner tiers including the best Stamblades on PC-NA.
What the hell does solo play have to do with BGs? You are either grasping at straws with the sole purpose of trying to make stamblade look bad or you literally cant tell what solo, small scale, large fights are. Dunno which one is worse. In any case. BGs are not solo play. And the reason why stamblades arent considered good in high MMR matches its exactly that, because they are not freaking solo play. They are organised group fights and in those fights stamblades arent actually that good which is literally shown in the freaking rankings you are complaining about in the first place.
Yes there is a huge difference between going on against multiple organised opponents of equal skill level with you and multiple unorganised players of generally lower skill level than yours. In 1vX fights you will fight mostly fight with the latter. And when people talk about a class being good against multiple opponents they mean exactly that. Its capabilities in 1vX fights. Thats not nonsense. The only thing that is nonsense is saying that a class isnt good against multiple opponents because they cant 1vX multiple organised opponents. No class can do that.
I dont anyone to tell me that stamblades are top tier in solo play. Ive actually been repeating that stamblades and mag sorcs are top tier in solo and will always be for years. But dont worry im not gonna go through the trouble of finding posts from years ago to save you the embarrassment.
I dont assume anything. I just replied to ur post, you didnt like it and thought it would be a good idea to turn it into a personal attack, call me arrogant and that i dont know anything about the game unless people tell me. What a failure. Better luck next time.
But whatever, not that i expected anything more from someone pretending to be an expert on a class that he didnt even play to lvl 50.
Simple point, you said some nonsense about Stamblades being able to take on multiple people at once. If they were strong enough to do that, they’d be strong enough to be good in battlegrounds.
Do most stamina classes have group support in BGs? No. Are they strong enough to do well in BGs? Yes.
BGs are different than solo play yes, but if as some claim they’re good vs multiple opponents you’d see it in pvp all the time. Instead you get people pointing to videos against potatoes or saying they can can choose easy fights, but that’s not strong, that’s choosing easier fights.
Plus yes, arrogance, answering that people aren’t experienced or don’t know what they’re talking about is the epitome of arrogance.
Your argument that you would see this in BG's is flawed because of a simple reason, high MMR is filled with good and strong players. No one can 1vx against opponents of similar skill, maybe the occasional 1v2 if you play perfectly, but in most cases you will get clapped. Class doesn't matter here. Solo play is all about kiting, baiting and filtering out the squishy and weak targets first, eliminating them, and making the threat smaller and smaller by spreading out the group into smaller parts or even seperate 1v1's. Stamblade is top tier at this because with their frontloaded burst they can take down weak targets very quickly, go into cloak, reposition and look for next target and have the sustain to keep doing it. And more importantly, when they see stronger players engaging, they can bail out. That is why they are good in solo play. Most other classes are inferior to stamblade in this aspect because they have either limited mobility, no escape tools, lower burst potential (backloaded) or have simply weak healing tools (Not that stamblade have good healing, but they have cloak and shade to mitigate damage). In BG's this doesn't matter because in high MMR people usually don't chase you, they stick together and a stamblade will get lost along the sidelines and whenever he tries to get in for a kill he will have a tough time because there is usually a ton of AoE being spammed. Stamblade doesn't just go in and wreck face, thats not how it operates. It teases, pulls and baits and then eliminates when you tryhard too much. There are some brawler builds who can do fine, but a stamden/stamplar simply does it better because it also brings support.
Multiple people have been repeating this out of extensive experience playing the class. Your hypothesis based on observations in BG's is not what decides whether it is true or not, especially since that hypothesis is based on a flawed argument. From what I remember you also posted some time ago that you struggled on stamblade, and your bar setup was all over the place with things like bone shield and all... This isn't meant as a personal attack at all, but when your experience with a class is so limited or when you are still learning a class, you might want to be a bit less assertive in your judgement about how well it performs in certain situations.Edited by Koensol on October 29, 2019 10:21PM6 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ThePhantomThorn wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Luckylancer wrote: »Interesting list. Why stamdk is so low? He feels better generaly. Maybe 1 tier better. And how can stamden be S in solo? How can they kill someone better than others with last nerfs to stamden's best build? What is his superior kite options againts others?
Stamsorc so low, no wonders. They dont bring anything to group play and they are average at solo.
Stamdk lacks a reliable way of dealing with ranged attacks, wings don't count here as they come at the cost of survivability against other specs or offence as barspace is somewhat an issue.
Stamdk got it's rating mainly from a 1vX point of vier as it can give most classes a tough fight in 1v1s.
But in 1vX you lack the mobility to kite and thus run into situations where you can only tank but fail to kill people.
For an A tier spec they would have to have a good option of dealing with zergs or bring something outstanding with them which them.
Doesn’t this contradict Stamblade being in the top tier for solo builds? I mean, a stamblade has zero chance of taking out multiple players but they’re top tier because they can run away with cloak? Seems like Stamblade is being held to a different standard with the only answer being ‘because cloak’.
In general most rankings are fine, but Stamblade being too high and Stamplar too low stand out the most as ‘WTFs’. DK a little low too.
No, they are top tier because they are very mobile and they can kite/handle multiple opponents at once and take them out one by one. They are not held on a different standard. They were always top tier for solo open world and will always be there because of how the class is designed.
Saying that, “they are” isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight.
I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic. They are not top tier in group play. You can literally see that in the rankings. Please read before you respond.
And yes NBs are not S tier vs coordinated groups. No class can handle coordinated groups. The criteria for solo play are prety clear. Ability to self sustain, stay alive, kiting and fighting multiple people of lower skill level than you because you are not going to 1vX people of equal skill level no matter which class you are playing. The two classes which have always stood on top in solo play despite the nerfs, are stamblades and mag sorcs because of how well they are designed for solo play. They just fit those criteria perfectly.
Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument. You are literally putting ur own criteria with the sole purpose of saying that stamblades arent good.
You:
“I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic.”
”Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument.”
Me:
“And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh.”
When you invent an argument just to have something to respond to it gets silly. Here’s your own advice.
“Please read before you respond.”
Also you in the same post : " Saying that, they are isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight. "
Dont have reading issues at all. I mean ur post is right there, you can clearly see that. You are just cherry picking sentences from ur post to make ur argument. But yeah whatever floats ur boat. On the actual topic tho, seems like you cant tell what solo play actually is or at least how its viewed on the rankings.
Bruh, you’ve lost context. Everything you’ve highlighted that I stated is true. What you falsely accused me of saying is this:
“Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups”
You catch that? “In groups.” Nothing you quoted, literally nowhere, did I ever claim nightblades aren’t S in solo because they aren’t good IN GROUPS!.
My take on solo was exclusively about facing groups. Solo nightblades vs groups. 1vX
So.. leave me out of YOUR argument. You’re responding to something YOU invented.
I havent lost context. I was strictly speaking about stamblades being top tier in solo play and literally in the first paragraph of ur post you said stamblades are the weaker class for high end BGs/group play. Umm what?
Your take on 1vX is about 1 person fighting multiple organised people of high skill level. That concept doesnt even exist in the game no matter which class you are playing. The issue isnt that i responded to something i invented. The issue is that you invented ur own category called "fighting organised groups of high skill level" and tried to base the performance of solo NB off of that category. Well newsflash buddy, all classes are D tier in that category. You are not going to 1vX organised people of high skill level no matter which class u are playing.
i think they mean group play as group vs group. not solo vs group.
Completely agree on that. Organised PVP and high end BGs are group vs group. And as seen in the rankings stamblades suck in that category. Completely irrelevant with how the class fares in the solo aspect of PVP however.0 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Luckylancer wrote: »Interesting list. Why stamdk is so low? He feels better generaly. Maybe 1 tier better. And how can stamden be S in solo? How can they kill someone better than others with last nerfs to stamden's best build? What is his superior kite options againts others?
Stamsorc so low, no wonders. They dont bring anything to group play and they are average at solo.
Stamdk lacks a reliable way of dealing with ranged attacks, wings don't count here as they come at the cost of survivability against other specs or offence as barspace is somewhat an issue.
Stamdk got it's rating mainly from a 1vX point of vier as it can give most classes a tough fight in 1v1s.
But in 1vX you lack the mobility to kite and thus run into situations where you can only tank but fail to kill people.
For an A tier spec they would have to have a good option of dealing with zergs or bring something outstanding with them which them.
Doesn’t this contradict Stamblade being in the top tier for solo builds? I mean, a stamblade has zero chance of taking out multiple players but they’re top tier because they can run away with cloak? Seems like Stamblade is being held to a different standard with the only answer being ‘because cloak’.
In general most rankings are fine, but Stamblade being too high and Stamplar too low stand out the most as ‘WTFs’. DK a little low too.
No, they are top tier because they are very mobile and they can kite/handle multiple opponents at once and take them out one by one. They are not held on a different standard. They were always top tier for solo open world and will always be there because of how the class is designed.
Saying that, “they are” isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight.
I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic. They are not top tier in group play. You can literally see that in the rankings. Please read before you respond.
And yes NBs are not S tier vs coordinated groups. No class can handle coordinated groups. The criteria for solo play are prety clear. Ability to self sustain, stay alive, kiting and fighting multiple people of lower skill level than you because you are not going to 1vX people of equal skill level no matter which class you are playing. The two classes which have always stood on top in solo play despite the nerfs, are stamblades and mag sorcs because of how well they are designed for solo play. They just fit those criteria perfectly.
Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument. You are literally putting ur own criteria with the sole purpose of saying that stamblades arent good.
You:
“I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic.”
”Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument.”
Me:
“And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh.”
When you invent an argument just to have something to respond to it gets silly. Here’s your own advice.
“Please read before you respond.”
Also you in the same post : " Saying that, they are isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight. "
Dont have reading issues at all. I mean ur post is right there, you can clearly see that. You are just cherry picking sentences from ur post to make ur argument. But yeah whatever floats ur boat. On the actual topic tho, seems like you cant tell what solo play actually is or at least how its viewed on the rankings.
Bruh, you’ve lost context. Everything you’ve highlighted that I stated is true. What you falsely accused me of saying is this:
“Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups”
You catch that? “In groups.” Nothing you quoted, literally nowhere, did I ever claim nightblades aren’t S in solo because they aren’t good IN GROUPS!.
My take on solo was exclusively about facing groups. Solo nightblades vs groups. 1vX
So.. leave me out of YOUR argument. You’re responding to something YOU invented.
I havent lost context. I was strictly speaking about stamblades being top tier in solo play and literally in the first paragraph of ur post you said stamblades are the weaker class for high end BGs/group play. Umm what?
Your take on 1vX is about 1 person fighting multiple organised people of high skill level. That concept doesnt even exist in the game no matter which class you are playing. The issue isnt that i responded to something i invented. The issue is that you invented ur own category called "fighting organised groups of high skill level" and tried to base the performance of solo NB off of that category. Well newsflash buddy, all classes are D tier in that category. You are not going to 1vX organised people of high skill level no matter which class u are playing.
Give it a rest. This is specifically what you said.
“Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups”
This is a false accusation. Point out where I made this claim.
I’ll wait..
In literally the exact first paragraph where you talked about NBs being weaker in high end BGs/group play. At this point you are playing with words creating arguments just for the sake of arguing. Seems like you are the one who lost the context of the conversation. If you want to go back to the actual conversation by all means go ahead but if you are just going to continue playing with words and crating arguments just for the sake of arguing you are the one who should leave me out of it.
Listen very closely. I stated Nightblades ARE weaker in high end BG/group play. Why? Because.... its TRUE!!!
But that has NOTHING to do with their rating in the SOLO CATEGORY.
You accused me of stating they shouldn’t be S in SOLO, BECAUSE they’re weaker in BG’S/GROUPS.
That is absolutely FALSE. One has nothing to do with the other. But somehow you don’t understand that. You keep insinuating that I claimed that. Never did.
0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Luckylancer wrote: »Interesting list. Why stamdk is so low? He feels better generaly. Maybe 1 tier better. And how can stamden be S in solo? How can they kill someone better than others with last nerfs to stamden's best build? What is his superior kite options againts others?
Stamsorc so low, no wonders. They dont bring anything to group play and they are average at solo.
Stamdk lacks a reliable way of dealing with ranged attacks, wings don't count here as they come at the cost of survivability against other specs or offence as barspace is somewhat an issue.
Stamdk got it's rating mainly from a 1vX point of vier as it can give most classes a tough fight in 1v1s.
But in 1vX you lack the mobility to kite and thus run into situations where you can only tank but fail to kill people.
For an A tier spec they would have to have a good option of dealing with zergs or bring something outstanding with them which them.
Doesn’t this contradict Stamblade being in the top tier for solo builds? I mean, a stamblade has zero chance of taking out multiple players but they’re top tier because they can run away with cloak? Seems like Stamblade is being held to a different standard with the only answer being ‘because cloak’.
In general most rankings are fine, but Stamblade being too high and Stamplar too low stand out the most as ‘WTFs’. DK a little low too.
No, they are top tier because they are very mobile and they can kite/handle multiple opponents at once and take them out one by one. They are not held on a different standard. They were always top tier for solo open world and will always be there because of how the class is designed.
Saying that, “they are” isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight.
I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic. They are not top tier in group play. You can literally see that in the rankings. Please read before you respond.
And yes NBs are not S tier vs coordinated groups. No class can handle coordinated groups. The criteria for solo play are prety clear. Ability to self sustain, stay alive, kiting and fighting multiple people of lower skill level than you because you are not going to 1vX people of equal skill level no matter which class you are playing. The two classes which have always stood on top in solo play despite the nerfs, are stamblades and mag sorcs because of how well they are designed for solo play. They just fit those criteria perfectly.
Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument. You are literally putting ur own criteria with the sole purpose of saying that stamblades arent good.
You:
“I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic.”
”Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument.”
Me:
“And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh.”
When you invent an argument just to have something to respond to it gets silly. Here’s your own advice.
“Please read before you respond.”
Also you in the same post : " Saying that, they are isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight. "
Dont have reading issues at all. I mean ur post is right there, you can clearly see that. You are just cherry picking sentences from ur post to make ur argument. But yeah whatever floats ur boat. On the actual topic tho, seems like you cant tell what solo play actually is or at least how its viewed on the rankings.
Bruh, you’ve lost context. Everything you’ve highlighted that I stated is true. What you falsely accused me of saying is this:
“Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups”
You catch that? “In groups.” Nothing you quoted, literally nowhere, did I ever claim nightblades aren’t S in solo because they aren’t good IN GROUPS!.
My take on solo was exclusively about facing groups. Solo nightblades vs groups. 1vX
So.. leave me out of YOUR argument. You’re responding to something YOU invented.
I havent lost context. I was strictly speaking about stamblades being top tier in solo play and literally in the first paragraph of ur post you said stamblades are the weaker class for high end BGs/group play. Umm what?
Your take on 1vX is about 1 person fighting multiple organised people of high skill level. That concept doesnt even exist in the game no matter which class you are playing. The issue isnt that i responded to something i invented. The issue is that you invented ur own category called "fighting organised groups of high skill level" and tried to base the performance of solo NB off of that category. Well newsflash buddy, all classes are D tier in that category. You are not going to 1vX organised people of high skill level no matter which class u are playing.
Give it a rest. This is specifically what you said.
“Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups”
This is a false accusation. Point out where I made this claim.
I’ll wait..
In literally the exact first paragraph where you talked about NBs being weaker in high end BGs/group play. At this point you are playing with words creating arguments just for the sake of arguing. Seems like you are the one who lost the context of the conversation. If you want to go back to the actual conversation by all means go ahead but if you are just going to continue playing with words and crating arguments just for the sake of arguing you are the one who should leave me out of it.
Listen very closely. I stated Nightblades ARE weaker in high end BG/group play. Why? Because.... its TRUE!!!
But that has NOTHING to do with their rating in the SOLO CATEGORY.
You accused me of stating they shouldn’t be S in SOLO, BECAUSE they’re weaker in BG’S/GROUPS.
That is absolutely FALSE. One has nothing to do with the other. But somehow you don’t understand that. You keep insinuating that I claimed that. Never did.
Actually you started that paragraph by quoting me saying "they are" refering to my post saying that they are top tier in solo play and then you followed with that about BGs and group play. So u were basically making no sense and i was right to tell you to read before you respond cause among other things you were clearly talking about BGs and group play when i was talking about solo play.
Whatever, thats not the point and you are the one who somehow dont understand that. The point is NBs and solo play. Got anything to add to that or we gonna keep going in circles arguing "you said this", "i said that"?Edited by pieratsos on October 29, 2019 11:06PM0 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Luckylancer wrote: »Interesting list. Why stamdk is so low? He feels better generaly. Maybe 1 tier better. And how can stamden be S in solo? How can they kill someone better than others with last nerfs to stamden's best build? What is his superior kite options againts others?
Stamsorc so low, no wonders. They dont bring anything to group play and they are average at solo.
Stamdk lacks a reliable way of dealing with ranged attacks, wings don't count here as they come at the cost of survivability against other specs or offence as barspace is somewhat an issue.
Stamdk got it's rating mainly from a 1vX point of vier as it can give most classes a tough fight in 1v1s.
But in 1vX you lack the mobility to kite and thus run into situations where you can only tank but fail to kill people.
For an A tier spec they would have to have a good option of dealing with zergs or bring something outstanding with them which them.
Doesn’t this contradict Stamblade being in the top tier for solo builds? I mean, a stamblade has zero chance of taking out multiple players but they’re top tier because they can run away with cloak? Seems like Stamblade is being held to a different standard with the only answer being ‘because cloak’.
In general most rankings are fine, but Stamblade being too high and Stamplar too low stand out the most as ‘WTFs’. DK a little low too.
No, they are top tier because they are very mobile and they can kite/handle multiple opponents at once and take them out one by one. They are not held on a different standard. They were always top tier for solo open world and will always be there because of how the class is designed.
Saying that, “they are” isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight.
I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic. They are not top tier in group play. You can literally see that in the rankings. Please read before you respond.
And yes NBs are not S tier vs coordinated groups. No class can handle coordinated groups. The criteria for solo play are prety clear. Ability to self sustain, stay alive, kiting and fighting multiple people of lower skill level than you because you are not going to 1vX people of equal skill level no matter which class you are playing. The two classes which have always stood on top in solo play despite the nerfs, are stamblades and mag sorcs because of how well they are designed for solo play. They just fit those criteria perfectly.
Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument. You are literally putting ur own criteria with the sole purpose of saying that stamblades arent good.
You:
“I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic.”
”Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument.”
Me:
“And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh.”
When you invent an argument just to have something to respond to it gets silly. Here’s your own advice.
“Please read before you respond.”
Also you in the same post : " Saying that, they are isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight. "
Dont have reading issues at all. I mean ur post is right there, you can clearly see that. You are just cherry picking sentences from ur post to make ur argument. But yeah whatever floats ur boat. On the actual topic tho, seems like you cant tell what solo play actually is or at least how its viewed on the rankings.
Bruh, you’ve lost context. Everything you’ve highlighted that I stated is true. What you falsely accused me of saying is this:
“Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups”
You catch that? “In groups.” Nothing you quoted, literally nowhere, did I ever claim nightblades aren’t S in solo because they aren’t good IN GROUPS!.
My take on solo was exclusively about facing groups. Solo nightblades vs groups. 1vX
So.. leave me out of YOUR argument. You’re responding to something YOU invented.
I havent lost context. I was strictly speaking about stamblades being top tier in solo play and literally in the first paragraph of ur post you said stamblades are the weaker class for high end BGs/group play. Umm what?
Your take on 1vX is about 1 person fighting multiple organised people of high skill level. That concept doesnt even exist in the game no matter which class you are playing. The issue isnt that i responded to something i invented. The issue is that you invented ur own category called "fighting organised groups of high skill level" and tried to base the performance of solo NB off of that category. Well newsflash buddy, all classes are D tier in that category. You are not going to 1vX organised people of high skill level no matter which class u are playing.
Give it a rest. This is specifically what you said.
“Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups”
This is a false accusation. Point out where I made this claim.
I’ll wait..
In literally the exact first paragraph where you talked about NBs being weaker in high end BGs/group play. At this point you are playing with words creating arguments just for the sake of arguing. Seems like you are the one who lost the context of the conversation. If you want to go back to the actual conversation by all means go ahead but if you are just going to continue playing with words and crating arguments just for the sake of arguing you are the one who should leave me out of it.
Listen very closely. I stated Nightblades ARE weaker in high end BG/group play. Why? Because.... its TRUE!!!
But that has NOTHING to do with their rating in the SOLO CATEGORY.
You accused me of stating they shouldn’t be S in SOLO, BECAUSE they’re weaker in BG’S/GROUPS.
That is absolutely FALSE. One has nothing to do with the other. But somehow you don’t understand that. You keep insinuating that I claimed that. Never did.
Actually you started that paragraph by quoting me saying "they are" refering to my post saying that they are top tier in solo play and then you followed with that about BGs and group play. So u were basically making no sense and i was right to tell you to read before you respond cause among other things you were clearly talking about BGs and group play when i was talking about solo play.
Whatever, thats not the point and you are the one who somehow dont understand that. The point is NBs and solo play. Got anything to add to that or we gonna keep going in circles arguing "you said this", "i said that"?Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Luckylancer wrote: »Interesting list. Why stamdk is so low? He feels better generaly. Maybe 1 tier better. And how can stamden be S in solo? How can they kill someone better than others with last nerfs to stamden's best build? What is his superior kite options againts others?
Stamsorc so low, no wonders. They dont bring anything to group play and they are average at solo.
Stamdk lacks a reliable way of dealing with ranged attacks, wings don't count here as they come at the cost of survivability against other specs or offence as barspace is somewhat an issue.
Stamdk got it's rating mainly from a 1vX point of vier as it can give most classes a tough fight in 1v1s.
But in 1vX you lack the mobility to kite and thus run into situations where you can only tank but fail to kill people.
For an A tier spec they would have to have a good option of dealing with zergs or bring something outstanding with them which them.
Doesn’t this contradict Stamblade being in the top tier for solo builds? I mean, a stamblade has zero chance of taking out multiple players but they’re top tier because they can run away with cloak? Seems like Stamblade is being held to a different standard with the only answer being ‘because cloak’.
In general most rankings are fine, but Stamblade being too high and Stamplar too low stand out the most as ‘WTFs’. DK a little low too.
No, they are top tier because they are very mobile and they can kite/handle multiple opponents at once and take them out one by one. They are not held on a different standard. They were always top tier for solo open world and will always be there because of how the class is designed.
Saying that, “they are” isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight.
I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic. They are not top tier in group play. You can literally see that in the rankings. Please read before you respond.
And yes NBs are not S tier vs coordinated groups. No class can handle coordinated groups. The criteria for solo play are prety clear. Ability to self sustain, stay alive, kiting and fighting multiple people of lower skill level than you because you are not going to 1vX people of equal skill level no matter which class you are playing. The two classes which have always stood on top in solo play despite the nerfs, are stamblades and mag sorcs because of how well they are designed for solo play. They just fit those criteria perfectly.
Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument. You are literally putting ur own criteria with the sole purpose of saying that stamblades arent good.
You:
“I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic.”
”Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument.”
Me:
“And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh.”
When you invent an argument just to have something to respond to it gets silly. Here’s your own advice.
“Please read before you respond.”
Also you in the same post : " Saying that, they are isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight. "
Dont have reading issues at all. I mean ur post is right there, you can clearly see that. You are just cherry picking sentences from ur post to make ur argument. But yeah whatever floats ur boat. On the actual topic tho, seems like you cant tell what solo play actually is or at least how its viewed on the rankings.
Bruh, you’ve lost context. Everything you’ve highlighted that I stated is true. What you falsely accused me of saying is this:
“Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups”
You catch that? “In groups.” Nothing you quoted, literally nowhere, did I ever claim nightblades aren’t S in solo because they aren’t good IN GROUPS!.
My take on solo was exclusively about facing groups. Solo nightblades vs groups. 1vX
So.. leave me out of YOUR argument. You’re responding to something YOU invented.
I havent lost context. I was strictly speaking about stamblades being top tier in solo play and literally in the first paragraph of ur post you said stamblades are the weaker class for high end BGs/group play. Umm what?
Your take on 1vX is about 1 person fighting multiple organised people of high skill level. That concept doesnt even exist in the game no matter which class you are playing. The issue isnt that i responded to something i invented. The issue is that you invented ur own category called "fighting organised groups of high skill level" and tried to base the performance of solo NB off of that category. Well newsflash buddy, all classes are D tier in that category. You are not going to 1vX organised people of high skill level no matter which class u are playing.
Give it a rest. This is specifically what you said.
“Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups”
This is a false accusation. Point out where I made this claim.
I’ll wait..
In literally the exact first paragraph where you talked about NBs being weaker in high end BGs/group play. At this point you are playing with words creating arguments just for the sake of arguing. Seems like you are the one who lost the context of the conversation. If you want to go back to the actual conversation by all means go ahead but if you are just going to continue playing with words and crating arguments just for the sake of arguing you are the one who should leave me out of it.
Listen very closely. I stated Nightblades ARE weaker in high end BG/group play. Why? Because.... its TRUE!!!
But that has NOTHING to do with their rating in the SOLO CATEGORY.
You accused me of stating they shouldn’t be S in SOLO, BECAUSE they’re weaker in BG’S/GROUPS.
That is absolutely FALSE. One has nothing to do with the other. But somehow you don’t understand that. You keep insinuating that I claimed that. Never did.
Actually you started that paragraph by quoting me saying "they are" refering to my post saying that they are top tier in solo play and then you followed with that about BGs and group play. So u were basically making no sense and i was right to tell you to read before you respond cause among other things you were clearly talking about BGs and group play when i was talking about solo play.
Whatever, thats not the point and you are the one who somehow dont understand that. The point is NBs and solo play. Got anything to add to that or we gonna keep going in circles arguing "you said this", "i said that"?
This issue is blatantly obvious now. Lol
Paraphrasing. Please reframe from paraphrasing me. Anything retold by you are not my words.
Thanks
0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭My point is that to be a strong solo class it should require being able to take strong opponents 1v1.
If you say they’re strong because for the most part they can choose their engagements and pick off new players then you’re right. However, is that really what being top tier in solo play is about?
To me being top tier means you’d be able to pick a fight with any class and do well. In a head to head fight does anyone actually believe Stamblades are a top tier class?
I mentioned battlegrounds because people bring selfish builds into BGs all the time, even in high MMR. While it’s true group play is different than solo play or dueling, if Stamblades were a strong 1v1 class they’d be popular like other stam classes for example stamsorcs. Stamblade’s weakness shows up in BGs because there are no weak opponents to pick off.Edited by Iskiab on October 30, 2019 3:38AMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
SenpaiNFT✭✭✭✭My point is that to be a strong solo class it should require being able to take strong opponents 1v1.
If you say they’re strong because for the most part they can choose their engagements and pick off new players then you’re right. However, is that really what being top tier in solo play is about?
To me being top tier means you’d be able to pick a fight with any class and do well. In a head to head fight does anyone actually believe Stamblades are a top tier class?
I mentioned battlegrounds because people bring selfish builds into BGs all the time, even in high MMR. While it’s true group play is different than solo play or dueling, if Stamblades were a strong 1v1 class they’d be popular like other stam classes for example stamsorcs. Stamblade’s weakness shows up in BGs because there are no weak opponents to pick off.
Keywords in your entire post being “to me”. You can think whatever you want personally about what constitutes solo play. It is pretty explanatory (there IS LITERALLY A DESCRIPTION OF IT IN OP) of what 1vX constitutes in this post and to the 24+ people who contributed.
Stamblade is and always will be one of the top OW Cyrodiil classes for solo. Your skewed perceptions and arguing of semantics to your personal definitions is a waste of everyone’s time and a derailment to the thread.
Btw how is your Caluurions magblade build doing?3 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I never said stamblade cannot take on strong opponents 1v1. They are actually pretty good at that if they play well. Stamblade has always been a top contender in the duel tournaments on PC EU. Sadly it is among the most popular classes and there is a huge amount of very bad stamblades, causing peoples judgement of the class to be clouded.My point is that to be a strong solo class it should require being able to take strong opponents 1v1.
If you say they’re strong because for the most part they can choose their engagements and pick off new players then you’re right. However, is that really what being top tier in solo play is about?
To me being top tier means you’d be able to pick a fight with any class and do well. In a head to head fight does anyone actually believe Stamblades are a top tier class?
I mentioned battlegrounds because people bring selfish builds into BGs all the time, even in high MMR. While it’s true group play is different than solo play or dueling, if Stamblades were a strong 1v1 class they’d be popular like other stam classes for example stamsorcs. Stamblade’s weakness shows up in BGs because there are no weak opponents to pick off.
What I said is that when a strong player engages on them while they are already1vxing they can choose to bail out, because it brings a huge risk. As I said 1vx is really only possible against players who are less skilled than you, apart from some exceptional players performing at their peak. If they encountered that strong player without the other 5 zerglings chasing him, it would be a different story. Thing is most other classes don't have that choice and will either go full turtle mode or die.5 -
SRASinister✭✭✭It seems people are confusing open world solo play for duels or even honorable fights. Open world solo play I can still see stamblade up top in S tier. Now that's not saying that in a fair fight a NB will win straight up at all. It just means survivability and the ability to be opportunistic with minimum punishment while also being able to deal damage. I wouldn't put Magblade as high on the tier list though for solo play though since they have to build up their burst which is kind of counter-intuitive to running a cloak build. A magblade usually has to be at a higher skill level to survive let alone win since one mistake usually means their dead.Xbox One NA: Sins of Daemons3 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
Well, I have said to myself not to post anything in this thread, as it seems pointless, but after what I have sean here (quite funny to read, had a good laugh here and there), I might as well do this one last post.
You wanted some ideas and sugestion ? I have 4, that I do belive are quite resonable.
1. Veryfication: I my previous post, I have sugested that there should be some form of a practical test, to see if indeed classes perform according to their place in tier list for solo tier, but aperantly I was missunderstood.
The easiest way to do this is to do a "vs" of a classes on one tier higher and lower. So a class in tier "S" vs "A" tier, "A" tier vs "B" tier, "B" vs "C" etc. I do understand that duel is not the best way to do this, so perhaps maybe a duel in Cyro or maybe some controlled fight in a dead campaign. Idk. All I know that some form of a practical veryfication of a theoritical concept is better than no veryfication at all. Also I do belive that this should be done in 2 stages by players of various skill levels (ultra skilled and then average). Why ? See point 3.
2. You need to be absolutly sure that your cryterias & cattegories are done right and they will not cause any anomalies in the final result. I will use a simple example. Imagine if you have a raceing cars, and you try to categorize them (from best to worst) according to some of their parameters, like max speed, grip, acceleration, engine horsepower etc. So you make such a list, but when those cars will take part in an actuall race, one of the worst cars will win, because you did not took something into account. That is why you need to be 101% sure that initial cryterias you have made are ok, and they are not causing some wierd results.
3. Tests should be done by players of varius skill levels. And here is why: I will use NB vs Sorc as an example (it will probably be better to understand for most people, sorry, it is just an example, don't get triggered):
Lets say that we have an absolote best NB pvp player min-maxer with best posible build and skill level. On the other side we have best possible Sorc pvp player min-maxer with best posible build and skill level. NB maybe able to win. But what will happen on average ? When we take an average NB player with some experience and an average Sorc player with some experience ? I can guarante that Sorc will win almost always. That is why you should include into considaration that different classes have different skill cap & different learning curve, because this is probably an important thing you are missing here.
4. Make an "overall" cattegory that will be an average of all cattegories, reflecting how each class performes and what is its overall place in the tier list.
All in all I would like to tell you some final thoughts. You have without a doubt puted a lot of work to make this tier list. But looking at this thread, lets re-cap...
Someone makes a Thread on forums i which they present a class tier list. In fact it so professionally done, that if the font was green - it would look official.
After the thread is made many people point out that there are so errors in the tier list and some things should be changed. People not just say this, but they use resonable arguments. What happens next is that 6 people that made the tier list (or maybe 20 or 24 as I recall something like that was mentioned in one of the posts), instead of listen to the feedback, they use argumants of their own and try to buckup their decidions and even trying to lecture people on forums, basically saying (at least making an impression): "we are top pvp-ers, we are right, and you are all wrong".
^ That is why I have said that posting anything here is pointless. I aprciate work that you have to make this tier list, but the more I think of it... maybe posting this on forums was a mistake. Maybe it should have stayed on discord, so no one would have seen it. Because god forbid, all forum users know nothing about eso pvp, all of them are noobs.
That is all. If I will find some new sugestions I will edit this post.
Peace.Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on October 30, 2019 9:37AM0 -
Luede✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »ThePhantomThorn wrote: »can we please stop just ranting about burst combos and nb vs sorc.
imean why...
Because apparently a few people believe that NB is trash and shouldn't be top tier in the Solo category. Then it degenerated into a Sorc vs NB thread and how either class can do the most burst damage.
NB isnt trash, but NB isnt top tier either. top tier doesnt mean that u can fight some potatos which cant react properly. top tier means that u beat all other classes with equaly skilled player and thats simply not the case.
top tier also doesnt mean that u can avoid fights, or that u are the best in running away.2 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StaticWave wrote: »ThePhantomThorn wrote: »can we please stop just ranting about burst combos and nb vs sorc.
imean why...
Because apparently a few people believe that NB is trash and shouldn't be top tier in the Solo category. Then it degenerated into a Sorc vs NB thread and how either class can do the most burst damage.
NB isnt trash, but NB isnt top tier either. top tier doesnt mean that u can fight some potatos which cant react properly. top tier means that u beat all other classes with equaly skilled player and thats simply not the case.
top tier also doesnt mean that u can avoid fights, or that u are the best in running away.
Stamnb beats all other classes in our Solo category tho.
For the reasons listed in previous answers.
There is not a single spec on its own out there who can do the same things a stamnb can do.
In combat some come close but if we were to choose a single spec that had to be in S tier it would be Stamnb with nothing to discuss.0 -
Shanehere✭✭✭I would also like to know how many of those people play stamblade for BGs, small scale or large scale. The answer will be zero, and they play with zero of them. I guess as long as the Stamblades out there only run solo everything’s okay though.
Did you bother to look up any of the contributors to verify who they are?
Look up Sniker on youtube, literally the first contributor listed, and literally the owner of the discord this was made for. All sorts of Stamblade gameplay, including BGs.
3 -
Luede✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »ThePhantomThorn wrote: »can we please stop just ranting about burst combos and nb vs sorc.
imean why...
Because apparently a few people believe that NB is trash and shouldn't be top tier in the Solo category. Then it degenerated into a Sorc vs NB thread and how either class can do the most burst damage.
NB isnt trash, but NB isnt top tier either. top tier doesnt mean that u can fight some potatos which cant react properly. top tier means that u beat all other classes with equaly skilled player and thats simply not the case.
top tier also doesnt mean that u can avoid fights, or that u are the best in running away.
Stamnb beats all other classes in our Solo category tho.
For the reasons listed in previous answers.
There is not a single spec on its own out there who can do the same things a stamnb can do.
In combat some come close but if we were to choose a single spec that had to be in S tier it would be Stamnb with nothing to discuss.
reflect this list cp, or non cp, or both?0 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StaticWave wrote: »ThePhantomThorn wrote: »can we please stop just ranting about burst combos and nb vs sorc.
imean why...
Because apparently a few people believe that NB is trash and shouldn't be top tier in the Solo category. Then it degenerated into a Sorc vs NB thread and how either class can do the most burst damage.
NB isnt trash, but NB isnt top tier either. top tier doesnt mean that u can fight some potatos which cant react properly. top tier means that u beat all other classes with equaly skilled player and thats simply not the case.
top tier also doesnt mean that u can avoid fights, or that u are the best in running away.
Stamnb beats all other classes in our Solo category tho.
For the reasons listed in previous answers.
There is not a single spec on its own out there who can do the same things a stamnb can do.
In combat some come close but if we were to choose a single spec that had to be in S tier it would be Stamnb with nothing to discuss.
reflect this list cp, or non cp, or both?
Both CP and non cp0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Stamblades got too used to being carried by ridiculousness in open world. Same with magsorcs. BGs are another story because that hit and run playstyle, but you cant get many of them to realize it.
I'm not even slightly amused at the sorc vs NB fights that happen all the time. They pretty much got each other nerfed and then out of spite, target any other class that's decent. Not all that play them, but they were OP so long, they drew in an army of bads with inflated egos.3 -
SenpaiNFT✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
Well, I have said to myself not to post anything in this thread, as it seems pointless, but after what I have sean here (quite funny to read, had a good laugh here and there), I might as well do this one last post.
You wanted some ideas and sugestion ? I have 4, that I do belive are quite resonable.
1. Veryfication: I my previous post, I have sugested that there should be some form of a practical test, to see if indeed classes perform according to their place in tier list for solo tier, but aperantly I was missunderstood.
The easiest way to do this is to do a "vs" of a classes on one tier higher and lower. So a class in tier "S" vs "A" tier, "A" tier vs "B" tier, "B" vs "C" etc. I do understand that duel is not the best way to do this, so perhaps maybe a duel in Cyro or maybe some controlled fight in a dead campaign. Idk. All I know that some form of a practical veryfication of a theoritical concept is better than no veryfication at all. Also I do belive that this should be done in 2 stages by players of various skill levels (ultra skilled and then average). Why ? See point 3.
2. You need to be absolutly sure that your cryterias & cattegories are done right and they will not cause any anomalies in the final result. I will use a simple example. Imagine if you have a raceing cars, and you try to categorize them (from best to worst) according to some of their parameters, like max speed, grip, acceleration, engine horsepower etc. So you make such a list, but when those cars will take part in an actuall race, one of the worst cars will win, because you did not took something into account. That is why you need to be 101% sure that initial cryterias you have made are ok, and they are not causing some wierd results.
3. Tests should be done by players of varius skill levels. And here is why: I will use NB vs Sorc as an example (it will probably be better to understand for most people, sorry, it is just an example, don't get triggered):
Lets say that we have an absolote best NB pvp player min-maxer with best posible build and skill level. On the other side we have best possible Sorc pvp player min-maxer with best posible build and skill level. NB maybe able to win. But what will happen on average ? When we take an average NB player with some experience and an average Sorc player with some experience ? I can guarante that Sorc will win almost always. That is why you should include into considaration that different classes have different skill cap & different learning curve, because this is probably an important thing you are missing here.
4. Make an "overall" cattegory that will be an average of all cattegories, reflecting how each class performes and what is its overall place in the tier list.
All in all I would like to tell you some final thoughts. You have without a doubt puted a lot of work to make this tier list. But looking at this thread, lets re-cap...
Someone makes a Thread on forums i which they present a class tier list. In fact it so professionally done, that if the font was green - it would look official.
After the thread is made many people point out that there are so errors in the tier list and some things should be changed. People not just say this, but they use resonable arguments. What happens next is that 6 people that made the tier list (or maybe 20 or 24 as I recall something like that was mentioned in one of the posts), instead of listen to the feedback, they use argumants of their own and try to buckup their decidions and even trying to lecture people on forums, basically saying (at least making an impression): "we are top pvp-ers, we are right, and you are all wrong".
^ That is why I have said that posting anything here is pointless. I aprciate work that you have to make this tier list, but the more I think of it... maybe posting this on forums was a mistake. Maybe it should have stayed on discord, so no one would have seen it. Because god forbid, all forum users know nothing about eso pvp, all of them are noobs.
That is all. If I will find some new sugestions I will edit this post.
Peace.
No, this list was compiled for players at the peak skill level for a class. Why would we make a list for people who aren’t good at a class? That makes zero sense.
Again, a 1v1 tier list was not done, however if you read the descriptions 1v1s against all classes WERE taken into account assuming that the build was completely an open world 1vX build. Knowing that, the classes are appropriately placed. You’re entitled to disagree just as I am entitled to disagree with the earth being round.
An average player vs average player list is a waste of everyone’s time who is moderately good at the game. Every player who contributed to this is well above average so do not expect any of us to actually care about such a list. Everyone should aim for the top, I cannot physically comprehend a concept that would contradict that.0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »ThePhantomThorn wrote: »can we please stop just ranting about burst combos and nb vs sorc.
imean why...
Because apparently a few people believe that NB is trash and shouldn't be top tier in the Solo category. Then it degenerated into a Sorc vs NB thread and how either class can do the most burst damage.
NB isnt trash, but NB isnt top tier either. top tier doesnt mean that u can fight some potatos which cant react properly. top tier means that u beat all other classes with equaly skilled player and thats simply not the case.
top tier also doesnt mean that u can avoid fights, or that u are the best in running away.
Stamnb beats all other classes in our Solo category tho.
For the reasons listed in previous answers.
There is not a single spec on its own out there who can do the same things a stamnb can do.
In combat some come close but if we were to choose a single spec that had to be in S tier it would be Stamnb with nothing to discuss.
The thing is the way solo play is defined in the description isn’t the same as what you guys are arguing.
Being strong at stealth gameplay and picking off weak targets isn’t how solo gameplay was defined. Solo gameplay was described as being able to adapt to different situations solo including dueling, dark cloak builds, tanky builds, 1vX, etc... Stamblade is not S tier given that criteria.Edited by Iskiab on October 30, 2019 4:01PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten5 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StaticWave wrote: »ThePhantomThorn wrote: »can we please stop just ranting about burst combos and nb vs sorc.
imean why...
Because apparently a few people believe that NB is trash and shouldn't be top tier in the Solo category. Then it degenerated into a Sorc vs NB thread and how either class can do the most burst damage.
NB isnt trash, but NB isnt top tier either. top tier doesnt mean that u can fight some potatos which cant react properly. top tier means that u beat all other classes with equaly skilled player and thats simply not the case.
top tier also doesnt mean that u can avoid fights, or that u are the best in running away.
Stamnb beats all other classes in our Solo category tho.
For the reasons listed in previous answers.
There is not a single spec on its own out there who can do the same things a stamnb can do.
In combat some come close but if we were to choose a single spec that had to be in S tier it would be Stamnb with nothing to discuss.
The thing is the way solo play is defined in the description isn’t the same as what you guys are arguing.
Being strong at stealth gameplay and picking off weak targets isn’t how solo gameplay was defined. Solo gameplay was described as being able to adapt to different situations solo including dueling, dark cloak builds, tanky builds, 1vX, etc... Stamblade is not S tier given that criteria.
The solo category is described as:
"This section compares each spec to their ability of supporting itself, this includes: Keeping itself alive, sustaining its resources and its defence as well as handling multiple opponents at once and how well they can work in a 1v1 scenario on a build optimised for every solo situation possible
It's explicitly mentioned that a spec is measured based on one single build that it has to use for both 1vX and duels vs all other specs who have to follow the same rule.
And there is absolutely no reason that another class passes stamnb in viability thereEdited by BohnT2 on October 30, 2019 8:12PM5 -
Chelo✭✭✭✭✭NupidStoob wrote: »Look at all the people getting offended that you dare say "some of the best players". Let's be real the reason why people get angry at this list is cause of their insecurities~~ Stop hating kids.
Looks fairly accurate and some things are a bit controversial, but you explained why you put things the way you did. In all honesty it might a tad early for a tier list though.
Some of the best players that nobody knows loooool 😅
It's different been recognize that been a "best player". For example I have no idea if Alcast is one of the best players but everyone knows who is Alcast... The issue here is that nobody knows who these players are...0 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NupidStoob wrote: »Look at all the people getting offended that you dare say "some of the best players". Let's be real the reason why people get angry at this list is cause of their insecurities~~ Stop hating kids.
Looks fairly accurate and some things are a bit controversial, but you explained why you put things the way you did. In all honesty it might a tad early for a tier list though.
Some of the best players that nobody knows loooool 😅
It's different been recognize that been a "best player". For example I have no idea if Alcast is one of the best players but everyone knows who is Alcast... The issue here is that nobody knows who these players are...
That's why i updated the OP with a list of YouTube channels of some of the people involved.
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AMeanOne✭✭✭✭✭This is getting nowhere. Just a bunch of people crying who all wrote their post in the middle of their 24 man zerg.1
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pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Luckylancer wrote: »Interesting list. Why stamdk is so low? He feels better generaly. Maybe 1 tier better. And how can stamden be S in solo? How can they kill someone better than others with last nerfs to stamden's best build? What is his superior kite options againts others?
Stamsorc so low, no wonders. They dont bring anything to group play and they are average at solo.
Stamdk lacks a reliable way of dealing with ranged attacks, wings don't count here as they come at the cost of survivability against other specs or offence as barspace is somewhat an issue.
Stamdk got it's rating mainly from a 1vX point of vier as it can give most classes a tough fight in 1v1s.
But in 1vX you lack the mobility to kite and thus run into situations where you can only tank but fail to kill people.
For an A tier spec they would have to have a good option of dealing with zergs or bring something outstanding with them which them.
Doesn’t this contradict Stamblade being in the top tier for solo builds? I mean, a stamblade has zero chance of taking out multiple players but they’re top tier because they can run away with cloak? Seems like Stamblade is being held to a different standard with the only answer being ‘because cloak’.
In general most rankings are fine, but Stamblade being too high and Stamplar too low stand out the most as ‘WTFs’. DK a little low too.
No, they are top tier because they are very mobile and they can kite/handle multiple opponents at once and take them out one by one. They are not held on a different standard. They were always top tier for solo open world and will always be there because of how the class is designed.
Saying that, “they are” isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight.
I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic. They are not top tier in group play. You can literally see that in the rankings. Please read before you respond.
And yes NBs are not S tier vs coordinated groups. No class can handle coordinated groups. The criteria for solo play are prety clear. Ability to self sustain, stay alive, kiting and fighting multiple people of lower skill level than you because you are not going to 1vX people of equal skill level no matter which class you are playing. The two classes which have always stood on top in solo play despite the nerfs, are stamblades and mag sorcs because of how well they are designed for solo play. They just fit those criteria perfectly.
Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument. You are literally putting ur own criteria with the sole purpose of saying that stamblades arent good.
You:
“I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic.”
”Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument.”
Me:
“And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh.”
When you invent an argument just to have something to respond to it gets silly. Here’s your own advice.
“Please read before you respond.”
Also you in the same post : " Saying that, they are isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight. "
Dont have reading issues at all. I mean ur post is right there, you can clearly see that. You are just cherry picking sentences from ur post to make ur argument. But yeah whatever floats ur boat. On the actual topic tho, seems like you cant tell what solo play actually is or at least how its viewed on the rankings.
Bruh, you’ve lost context. Everything you’ve highlighted that I stated is true. What you falsely accused me of saying is this:
“Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups”
You catch that? “In groups.” Nothing you quoted, literally nowhere, did I ever claim nightblades aren’t S in solo because they aren’t good IN GROUPS!.
My take on solo was exclusively about facing groups. Solo nightblades vs groups. 1vX
So.. leave me out of YOUR argument. You’re responding to something YOU invented.
I havent lost context. I was strictly speaking about stamblades being top tier in solo play and literally in the first paragraph of ur post you said stamblades are the weaker class for high end BGs/group play. Umm what?
Your take on 1vX is about 1 person fighting multiple organised people of high skill level. That concept doesnt even exist in the game no matter which class you are playing. The issue isnt that i responded to something i invented. The issue is that you invented ur own category called "fighting organised groups of high skill level" and tried to base the performance of solo NB off of that category. Well newsflash buddy, all classes are D tier in that category. You are not going to 1vX organised people of high skill level no matter which class u are playing.
Give it a rest. This is specifically what you said.
“Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups”
This is a false accusation. Point out where I made this claim.
I’ll wait..
In literally the exact first paragraph where you talked about NBs being weaker in high end BGs/group play. At this point you are playing with words creating arguments just for the sake of arguing. Seems like you are the one who lost the context of the conversation. If you want to go back to the actual conversation by all means go ahead but if you are just going to continue playing with words and crating arguments just for the sake of arguing you are the one who should leave me out of it.
Listen very closely. I stated Nightblades ARE weaker in high end BG/group play. Why? Because.... its TRUE!!!
But that has NOTHING to do with their rating in the SOLO CATEGORY.
You accused me of stating they shouldn’t be S in SOLO, BECAUSE they’re weaker in BG’S/GROUPS.
That is absolutely FALSE. One has nothing to do with the other. But somehow you don’t understand that. You keep insinuating that I claimed that. Never did.
Actually you started that paragraph by quoting me saying "they are" refering to my post saying that they are top tier in solo play and then you followed with that about BGs and group play. So u were basically making no sense and i was right to tell you to read before you respond cause among other things you were clearly talking about BGs and group play when i was talking about solo play.
Whatever, thats not the point and you are the one who somehow dont understand that. The point is NBs and solo play. Got anything to add to that or we gonna keep going in circles arguing "you said this", "i said that"?Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Luckylancer wrote: »Interesting list. Why stamdk is so low? He feels better generaly. Maybe 1 tier better. And how can stamden be S in solo? How can they kill someone better than others with last nerfs to stamden's best build? What is his superior kite options againts others?
Stamsorc so low, no wonders. They dont bring anything to group play and they are average at solo.
Stamdk lacks a reliable way of dealing with ranged attacks, wings don't count here as they come at the cost of survivability against other specs or offence as barspace is somewhat an issue.
Stamdk got it's rating mainly from a 1vX point of vier as it can give most classes a tough fight in 1v1s.
But in 1vX you lack the mobility to kite and thus run into situations where you can only tank but fail to kill people.
For an A tier spec they would have to have a good option of dealing with zergs or bring something outstanding with them which them.
Doesn’t this contradict Stamblade being in the top tier for solo builds? I mean, a stamblade has zero chance of taking out multiple players but they’re top tier because they can run away with cloak? Seems like Stamblade is being held to a different standard with the only answer being ‘because cloak’.
In general most rankings are fine, but Stamblade being too high and Stamplar too low stand out the most as ‘WTFs’. DK a little low too.
No, they are top tier because they are very mobile and they can kite/handle multiple opponents at once and take them out one by one. They are not held on a different standard. They were always top tier for solo open world and will always be there because of how the class is designed.
Saying that, “they are” isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight.
I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic. They are not top tier in group play. You can literally see that in the rankings. Please read before you respond.
And yes NBs are not S tier vs coordinated groups. No class can handle coordinated groups. The criteria for solo play are prety clear. Ability to self sustain, stay alive, kiting and fighting multiple people of lower skill level than you because you are not going to 1vX people of equal skill level no matter which class you are playing. The two classes which have always stood on top in solo play despite the nerfs, are stamblades and mag sorcs because of how well they are designed for solo play. They just fit those criteria perfectly.
Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument. You are literally putting ur own criteria with the sole purpose of saying that stamblades arent good.
You:
“I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic.”
”Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument.”
Me:
“And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh.”
When you invent an argument just to have something to respond to it gets silly. Here’s your own advice.
“Please read before you respond.”
Also you in the same post : " Saying that, they are isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight. "
Dont have reading issues at all. I mean ur post is right there, you can clearly see that. You are just cherry picking sentences from ur post to make ur argument. But yeah whatever floats ur boat. On the actual topic tho, seems like you cant tell what solo play actually is or at least how its viewed on the rankings.
Bruh, you’ve lost context. Everything you’ve highlighted that I stated is true. What you falsely accused me of saying is this:
“Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups”
You catch that? “In groups.” Nothing you quoted, literally nowhere, did I ever claim nightblades aren’t S in solo because they aren’t good IN GROUPS!.
My take on solo was exclusively about facing groups. Solo nightblades vs groups. 1vX
So.. leave me out of YOUR argument. You’re responding to something YOU invented.
I havent lost context. I was strictly speaking about stamblades being top tier in solo play and literally in the first paragraph of ur post you said stamblades are the weaker class for high end BGs/group play. Umm what?
Your take on 1vX is about 1 person fighting multiple organised people of high skill level. That concept doesnt even exist in the game no matter which class you are playing. The issue isnt that i responded to something i invented. The issue is that you invented ur own category called "fighting organised groups of high skill level" and tried to base the performance of solo NB off of that category. Well newsflash buddy, all classes are D tier in that category. You are not going to 1vX organised people of high skill level no matter which class u are playing.
Give it a rest. This is specifically what you said.
“Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups”
This is a false accusation. Point out where I made this claim.
I’ll wait..
In literally the exact first paragraph where you talked about NBs being weaker in high end BGs/group play. At this point you are playing with words creating arguments just for the sake of arguing. Seems like you are the one who lost the context of the conversation. If you want to go back to the actual conversation by all means go ahead but if you are just going to continue playing with words and crating arguments just for the sake of arguing you are the one who should leave me out of it.
Listen very closely. I stated Nightblades ARE weaker in high end BG/group play. Why? Because.... its TRUE!!!
But that has NOTHING to do with their rating in the SOLO CATEGORY.
You accused me of stating they shouldn’t be S in SOLO, BECAUSE they’re weaker in BG’S/GROUPS.
That is absolutely FALSE. One has nothing to do with the other. But somehow you don’t understand that. You keep insinuating that I claimed that. Never did.
Actually you started that paragraph by quoting me saying "they are" refering to my post saying that they are top tier in solo play and then you followed with that about BGs and group play. So u were basically making no sense and i was right to tell you to read before you respond cause among other things you were clearly talking about BGs and group play when i was talking about solo play.
Whatever, thats not the point and you are the one who somehow dont understand that. The point is NBs and solo play. Got anything to add to that or we gonna keep going in circles arguing "you said this", "i said that"?
This issue is blatantly obvious now. Lol
Paraphrasing. Please reframe from paraphrasing me. Anything retold by you are not my words.
Thanks
Well at least you agree that you were talking about groups. Lol. So yeah I guess what I told from the beginning is true.1
