The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Patch 5.2.5 PvP Tierlist
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JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
There is no plan to achieve a result in terms of class balance etc.
It's a list which exists to avoid having people spread false information about how a class can perform due to their own bias.
The list of players in there contains long term players from each spec in the game who shine out at what they do, like sanct being the leader of the best ball group out there (former zerg squad, former banana squad).
If you doubt any of these players reach out to get more information of each one of them individually or challenge them directly to a duel.
Except that the list itself is a biased opinion.That's why you have plenty of other good players disputing it. Please don't think that your list is the end all be all of rankings or accuse people of "spreading false information" because their opinion of a class's strength doesn't match your own.
PS: Since you keep repeatedly using it as some kind of justification,being able to beat someone at a duel just means your good at dueling, doesn't make you an expert on PvP class rankings
Man, I want to awesome this TWICE! Lol2 -
Vlad9425✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nerftheforums wrote: »nosecookie wrote: »Your train of thought is wrong. The best players at a class are the showcase at how good a class can perform. They are the benchmark. If you try to balance for people that play below that level (which is most), you're balancing for casual play.
Also you said something along the lines that Incap is worse than Onlsaught. I gave you a source where you could look for yourself why it isn't the case. Just wanted to help.
Oh stop embarrassing yourself, if you think Incap is better than Onslaught then you either don't play the game enough and certainly don't play the NB class or you're just here trolling. Also nobody on here needs you telling them that their "train of thought is wrong" based on some video you watched where presumably the guy that made it cut out all the bits where he gets killed and shoves in the best clips of him killing potatoes which as I said can be done on any class. If the "benchmark" is putting together a few of the best clips then by that logic nearly everyone who PvPs can throw together clips of them killing bad players and you immediately consider that a benchmark LOL.
Incaps 20% damage amplification is a vulnerability effect, which means it's getting directly subtracted from CP mitigation, which makes it so much more potent in PvP than flat penetration for example from onslaught.
The 20% damage amplification makes up for around 15-16k flat pen, and considering you'd want to stack penetration on a stamnb anyway because its the best stat to increase your damage, you'd prefer to use incap in such scenario.
With only Spriggan, a maul and about 20 points into the penetration star you end up penetrating a 24k resistance target for a whole 12554
If you were to use onslaught now, you'd only get a pen boost of about 11,4k.
Incap out damages that.
Now someone would probably argue "but but but why use spriggan's with 2h ult?"
You wouldn't. Even if you wouldn't use spriggan, onslaught would give you 15k pen then, still less damage than incap.
On top of that Incap is a kit enabler for Nightblades, without a damage amplifier, a NB hardly does any damage
Having the enabler being so cheap is very important for the classes pace in PvP for soloing. Incap and bow proc is basically like a bolt action gun. You shoot and have to back off to reload. Onslaught makes that reloading alot alot alot slower.
The only thing that's better about onslaught is the initial damage, but considering running incap allows you to stack penetration sets, the gap closes a bit there too. Of course onslaught still hits a *** of harder, but like, do you really want it if you have other skills that hit just as hard after an incap? And don't forget that literally everybody runs pen cp star, which becomes useless, together with the maul, when onslaught is used.
-Sniker
DBoS has a tooltip just as high as Incap but with a Stun and deadly DOT to follow which can be timed with spectral bow much better than it can with Incap due to the stun and Onslaught gives you insane resistances on top of max Pen as well as being AOE no matter what set you Spec into. The silence on Incap is garbage and doesn't serve much purpose at all and this slight damage increase you speak of lasts for 6 seconds by which time good players either stun the NB, out heal it, block it roll it or even Cloak away from it. Also most NBs I see in game have also dropped Incap for one of the 2 Ults I listed above. Also I'd love to see all the non NB players who seem to comment on Incap actually try the Ult for themselves and see how garbage it truly is in practice instead of reading numbers in comments.2 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Luckylancer wrote: »Interesting list. Why stamdk is so low? He feels better generaly. Maybe 1 tier better. And how can stamden be S in solo? How can they kill someone better than others with last nerfs to stamden's best build? What is his superior kite options againts others?
Stamsorc so low, no wonders. They dont bring anything to group play and they are average at solo.
Stamdk lacks a reliable way of dealing with ranged attacks, wings don't count here as they come at the cost of survivability against other specs or offence as barspace is somewhat an issue.
Stamdk got it's rating mainly from a 1vX point of vier as it can give most classes a tough fight in 1v1s.
But in 1vX you lack the mobility to kite and thus run into situations where you can only tank but fail to kill people.
For an A tier spec they would have to have a good option of dealing with zergs or bring something outstanding with them which them.
Doesn’t this contradict Stamblade being in the top tier for solo builds? I mean, a stamblade has zero chance of taking out multiple players but they’re top tier because they can run away with cloak? Seems like Stamblade is being held to a different standard with the only answer being ‘because cloak’.
In general most rankings are fine, but Stamblade being too high and Stamplar too low stand out the most as ‘WTFs’. DK a little low too.
No, they are top tier because they are very mobile and they can kite/handle multiple opponents at once and take them out one by one. They are not held on a different standard. They were always top tier for solo open world and will always be there because of how the class is designed.
Saying that, “they are” isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight.
I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic. They are not top tier in group play. You can literally see that in the rankings. Please read before you respond.
And yes NBs are not S tier vs coordinated groups. No class can handle coordinated groups. The criteria for solo play are prety clear. Ability to self sustain, stay alive, kiting and fighting multiple people of lower skill level than you because you are not going to 1vX people of equal skill level no matter which class you are playing. The two classes which have always stood on top in solo play despite the nerfs, are stamblades and mag sorcs because of how well they are designed for solo play. They just fit those criteria perfectly.
Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument. You are literally putting ur own criteria with the sole purpose of saying that stamblades arent good.7 -
Vlad9425✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭nosecookie wrote: »
I don't need math to see that my Dawnbreaker is putting down people more effectively than the current version of Incap is. I have my eyes and years of experience on this game to see that.1 -
nosecookie✭✭✭Yet, you fail to talk numbers and just explain everything by just how it feels. Your years of experience also didn't tell you that a build isn't a montage of killclips. And on top of that your also using dawnbreaker.
I should have never tried to explain anything and just started with zero. Idk if even that would've helped since if you really play for years now, you might be a lost cause.
Let's leave it at that. This doesn't lead anywhere as long as you don't give proof of what you are talking about.
So long, have a great day.Edited by nosecookie on October 28, 2019 10:38PM0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Luckylancer wrote: »Interesting list. Why stamdk is so low? He feels better generaly. Maybe 1 tier better. And how can stamden be S in solo? How can they kill someone better than others with last nerfs to stamden's best build? What is his superior kite options againts others?
Stamsorc so low, no wonders. They dont bring anything to group play and they are average at solo.
Stamdk lacks a reliable way of dealing with ranged attacks, wings don't count here as they come at the cost of survivability against other specs or offence as barspace is somewhat an issue.
Stamdk got it's rating mainly from a 1vX point of vier as it can give most classes a tough fight in 1v1s.
But in 1vX you lack the mobility to kite and thus run into situations where you can only tank but fail to kill people.
For an A tier spec they would have to have a good option of dealing with zergs or bring something outstanding with them which them.
Doesn’t this contradict Stamblade being in the top tier for solo builds? I mean, a stamblade has zero chance of taking out multiple players but they’re top tier because they can run away with cloak? Seems like Stamblade is being held to a different standard with the only answer being ‘because cloak’.
In general most rankings are fine, but Stamblade being too high and Stamplar too low stand out the most as ‘WTFs’. DK a little low too.
No, they are top tier because they are very mobile and they can kite/handle multiple opponents at once and take them out one by one. They are not held on a different standard. They were always top tier for solo open world and will always be there because of how the class is designed.
I don’t understand what you mean by this. It’s devolving into a NB vs Sorc thread, but I have never seen a StamNB take out multiple opponents.
Are you saying StamNB is S tier because they’re the best 1vX class? That would be one of the most questionable statements I’ve ever heard.
Or do you mean they can do well by choosing opponents and finding new players?
How exactly is this devolving into a NB vs Sorc thread? You are telling me that you have never seen a stamblade 1vXing people?
No, im saying stamblade is S tier in solo play because they have great mobility, great kiting capabilities, they can reset fights when they want to, choose their fights and can handle multiple opponents of lower skill level and take them out one by one while they can also fight well in a 1v1 even with their open world build. Thats the general description of solo open world. Its not a matter of questionable statement. It is what it is. If all that doesnt matter to you for whatever reason then by all means dont look at the solo category. But just because they dont mean anything to you, it doesnt mean they are not S tier in that category.
The class is just designed perfectly for that category and it will always stay on top in that category alongside mag sorcs. And untill ZOS changes something drastically like overhauling those classes or the combat system in general, those two classes will always stay on top when it comes to solo. They are fast, they can kite, they can choose their fights and they have great burst which doesnt require too much micromanagement like other classes meaning they can switch targets and kill them fast.3 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I may not be a fan of the vanity stroking and trolling in that chat and they're often really short sighted about the changes they suggest in terms of how they'll effect the entire game (not just small scale PvP), but these guys do know what they talking about. It's not a bad list. It just could maybe have done without the list of credentials at the end.Edited by p00tx on October 28, 2019 10:58PMPC/Xbox NA Mindmender|Swashbuckler Supreme|Planes Breaker|Dawnbringer|Godslayer|Immortal Redeemer|Gryphon Heart|Tick-tock Tormentor|Dro-m'Athra Destroyer|Stormproof|Grand Overlord|Grand Mastercrafter|Master Grappler|Tamriel Hero1 -
Vlad9425✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭nosecookie wrote: »Yet, you fail to talk numbers and just explain everything by just how it feels. Your years of experience also didn't tell you that a build isn't a montage of killclips. And on top of that your also using dawnbreaker.
I should have never tried to explain to anything and just started with zero. Idk if even that would've helped since if you really play for years now, you might be a lost cause.
Let's leave it at that. This doesn't lead anywhere as long as you don't give proof of what you are talking about.
So long, have a great day.
You have somehow managed to completely miss what I've been explaining in this whole pointless argument with you. Congrats.
You're trying to justify that Incap is a better Ultimate than Onslaught and DBoS yet you fail to mention that those 2 Ultimates offer much better utility effects which in practice work much better than the Overnerfed Incap which many Nightblades have completely dropped from their builds. You're asking me to provide proof of what exactly? The proof is already in the fact that NB has become one of the least played classes in the game and that most NBs who actually play the class consider the Ultimate to be weaker than Onslaught which gives you top tier resistances on top of insane Pen which lets you sustain a fight much better.
Please do yourself a favor and actually play the class then come back and comment on how OP Incap is.
Good day to you.0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Luckylancer wrote: »Interesting list. Why stamdk is so low? He feels better generaly. Maybe 1 tier better. And how can stamden be S in solo? How can they kill someone better than others with last nerfs to stamden's best build? What is his superior kite options againts others?
Stamsorc so low, no wonders. They dont bring anything to group play and they are average at solo.
Stamdk lacks a reliable way of dealing with ranged attacks, wings don't count here as they come at the cost of survivability against other specs or offence as barspace is somewhat an issue.
Stamdk got it's rating mainly from a 1vX point of vier as it can give most classes a tough fight in 1v1s.
But in 1vX you lack the mobility to kite and thus run into situations where you can only tank but fail to kill people.
For an A tier spec they would have to have a good option of dealing with zergs or bring something outstanding with them which them.
Doesn’t this contradict Stamblade being in the top tier for solo builds? I mean, a stamblade has zero chance of taking out multiple players but they’re top tier because they can run away with cloak? Seems like Stamblade is being held to a different standard with the only answer being ‘because cloak’.
In general most rankings are fine, but Stamblade being too high and Stamplar too low stand out the most as ‘WTFs’. DK a little low too.
No, they are top tier because they are very mobile and they can kite/handle multiple opponents at once and take them out one by one. They are not held on a different standard. They were always top tier for solo open world and will always be there because of how the class is designed.
Saying that, “they are” isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight.
I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic. They are not top tier in group play. You can literally see that in the rankings. Please read before you respond.
And yes NBs are not S tier vs coordinated groups. No class can handle coordinated groups. The criteria for solo play are prety clear. Ability to self sustain, stay alive, kiting and fighting multiple people of lower skill level than you because you are not going to 1vX people of equal skill level no matter which class you are playing. The two classes which have always stood on top in solo play despite the nerfs, are stamblades and mag sorcs because of how well they are designed for solo play. They just fit those criteria perfectly.
Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument. You are literally putting ur own criteria with the sole purpose of saying that stamblades arent good.
My point is if Stamblades were good against multiple opponents you’d see it in BGs. Every NB I’ve seen or spoken with chooses targets based off their health and tankiness and gives up if they think it’ll be a challenge or a fight they won’t win.
There’s a huge difference between multiple people being in the vacinity and picking off one soft target and taking on multiple targets 1vX. If Stamblades were truly good against multiple opponents it would come across in BGs, but they aren’t, so it doesn’t. Saying they’re good at their niche is one thing. Saying they’re good in general against multiple people is nonsense.
You also assume I’m a stamblade, I am not, and have no clue where I play on PC-NA. You’re just guessing and assuming arrogance will deter people from dissenting, because you think you’re talking from a position of knowledge of being in the know, when actually you’re just parroting others and demonstrating the inability to reframe the strengths of classes with changes to the game.
I’ve seen the type a lot before, until someone tells you things have changed who’s a better player than you and you probably kiss their butt you won’t believe it.
As for BGs, well I’m PC-NA so have no idea who those names are or their skill levels. On PC-NA you would never see a stamblade do that well in higher MMR, only low or beginner tiers including the best Stamblades on PC-NA.Edited by Iskiab on October 28, 2019 11:08PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Luckylancer wrote: »Interesting list. Why stamdk is so low? He feels better generaly. Maybe 1 tier better. And how can stamden be S in solo? How can they kill someone better than others with last nerfs to stamden's best build? What is his superior kite options againts others?
Stamsorc so low, no wonders. They dont bring anything to group play and they are average at solo.
Stamdk lacks a reliable way of dealing with ranged attacks, wings don't count here as they come at the cost of survivability against other specs or offence as barspace is somewhat an issue.
Stamdk got it's rating mainly from a 1vX point of vier as it can give most classes a tough fight in 1v1s.
But in 1vX you lack the mobility to kite and thus run into situations where you can only tank but fail to kill people.
For an A tier spec they would have to have a good option of dealing with zergs or bring something outstanding with them which them.
Doesn’t this contradict Stamblade being in the top tier for solo builds? I mean, a stamblade has zero chance of taking out multiple players but they’re top tier because they can run away with cloak? Seems like Stamblade is being held to a different standard with the only answer being ‘because cloak’.
In general most rankings are fine, but Stamblade being too high and Stamplar too low stand out the most as ‘WTFs’. DK a little low too.
No, they are top tier because they are very mobile and they can kite/handle multiple opponents at once and take them out one by one. They are not held on a different standard. They were always top tier for solo open world and will always be there because of how the class is designed.
Saying that, “they are” isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight.
I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic. They are not top tier in group play. You can literally see that in the rankings. Please read before you respond.
And yes NBs are not S tier vs coordinated groups. No class can handle coordinated groups. The criteria for solo play are prety clear. Ability to self sustain, stay alive, kiting and fighting multiple people of lower skill level than you because you are not going to 1vX people of equal skill level no matter which class you are playing. The two classes which have always stood on top in solo play despite the nerfs, are stamblades and mag sorcs because of how well they are designed for solo play. They just fit those criteria perfectly.
Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument. You are literally putting ur own criteria with the sole purpose of saying that stamblades arent good.
You:
“I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic.”
”Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument.”
Me:
“And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh.”
When you invent an argument just to have something to respond to it gets silly. Here’s your own advice.
“Please read before you respond.”0 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mag Sorc is S tier in running away. Probably bottom of the pile in everything else2 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nerftheforums wrote: »nosecookie wrote: »Your train of thought is wrong. The best players at a class are the showcase at how good a class can perform. They are the benchmark. If you try to balance for people that play below that level (which is most), you're balancing for casual play.
Also you said something along the lines that Incap is worse than Onlsaught. I gave you a source where you could look for yourself why it isn't the case. Just wanted to help.
Oh stop embarrassing yourself, if you think Incap is better than Onslaught then you either don't play the game enough and certainly don't play the NB class or you're just here trolling. Also nobody on here needs you telling them that their "train of thought is wrong" based on some video you watched where presumably the guy that made it cut out all the bits where he gets killed and shoves in the best clips of him killing potatoes which as I said can be done on any class. If the "benchmark" is putting together a few of the best clips then by that logic nearly everyone who PvPs can throw together clips of them killing bad players and you immediately consider that a benchmark LOL.
Incaps 20% damage amplification is a vulnerability effect, which means it's getting directly subtracted from CP mitigation, which makes it so much more potent in PvP than flat penetration for example from onslaught.
The 20% damage amplification makes up for around 15-16k flat pen, and considering you'd want to stack penetration on a stamnb anyway because its the best stat to increase your damage, you'd prefer to use incap in such scenario.
With only Spriggan, a maul and about 20 points into the penetration star you end up penetrating a 24k resistance target for a whole 12554
If you were to use onslaught now, you'd only get a pen boost of about 11,4k.
Incap out damages that.
Now someone would probably argue "but but but why use spriggan's with 2h ult?"
You wouldn't. Even if you wouldn't use spriggan, onslaught would give you 15k pen then, still less damage than incap.
On top of that Incap is a kit enabler for Nightblades, without a damage amplifier, a NB hardly does any damage
Having the enabler being so cheap is very important for the classes pace in PvP for soloing. Incap and bow proc is basically like a bolt action gun. You shoot and have to back off to reload. Onslaught makes that reloading alot alot alot slower.
The only thing that's better about onslaught is the initial damage, but considering running incap allows you to stack penetration sets, the gap closes a bit there too. Of course onslaught still hits a *** of harder, but like, do you really want it if you have other skills that hit just as hard after an incap? And don't forget that literally everybody runs pen cp star, which becomes useless, together with the maul, when onslaught is used.
-Sniker
DBoS has a tooltip just as high as Incap but with a Stun and deadly DOT to follow which can be timed with spectral bow much better than it can with Incap due to the stun and Onslaught gives you insane resistances on top of max Pen as well as being AOE no matter what set you Spec into. The silence on Incap is garbage and doesn't serve much purpose at all and this slight damage increase you speak of lasts for 6 seconds by which time good players either stun the NB, out heal it, block it roll it or even Cloak away from it. Also most NBs I see in game have also dropped Incap for one of the 2 Ults I listed above. Also I'd love to see all the non NB players who seem to comment on Incap actually try the Ult for themselves and see how garbage it truly is in practice instead of reading numbers in comments.
Maybe you should try the skills you think are so much better than our class ultimate. Read them before trying, you never know, maybe they don't do exactly what you think they do.1 -
D0PAMINE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »JumpmanLane wrote: »I’ve come to the realization that coming to these forums looking for information is a waste of time lol. EVERYBODY is an expert but nobody KNOWS much of anything.
You could... you know... meet those guys in game and duel them.
Lose horribly and then ask them if they can give you help and suggestions.
Just saying...
Or these fools could catch me in Cyro and get MOPPED!
I always sought experienced players to duel than ask for advice on improving my weak points. On my sDK, fighting an mDK is the most stressful for me, but still a fun fight.0 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
I dueled a cp 768 stamblade that regularly kills me with 16k onslaught, 9k surprise attacks. I was in heavy armor. No magsorc can even come close to that burst damage.
And?
Completely irrelevant, but you lost to a better player who was probably on a better build. Perhaps roll dodge?
The point was about burst damage. Any class that can stack damage has more burst potential than nightblades. You literally are making the point. Here it is again for those that missed it:
“The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities.”
You responded to that with tooltips. Lol
You don't need to tell me about skill level, or how to play the game, it's irrelevant. Did you completely miss the 16k onslaught mention? I was using the most damage set up in the game, but i still did considerably less damage compared to his. The class just has passives and skills that make them the best at dealing burst damage. Why did I respond with tooltips? Because NB are the best at dealing critical damage. No class in the game has access to that 10% more crit damage, and crits are what kills people, not normal damage.
What did you say that you feel changes the originally point?
What does more damage:
A nightblades onslaught, with whatever sets you prefer?
Or
Onslaught and backlash/sub assault, etc combined?
You’re focusing on nightblades achieving a high tooltip value on a single ability. But the point is, that ability can be combined with other abilities on other classes in a single gcd. That results in combined abilities having higher “burst potential.”
The extra damage a nightblade can achieve on a single ability will not outweigh the extra damage an ability like backlash or sub assault will add.
The tooltip was just a demonstration. My point was the 16k onslaught was possible because of the extra passives and buffs that a stamblade has but other classes don't. These extra advantages complement other skills as well, not just Onslaught.
If you want to compare combinations of skills, then a NB following an ultimate with a spectral bow will still deal considerably more damage than ultimate + sub assault or ultimate + backlash, or ultimate + haunting curse + frag for that matter. This is because Spectral Bow's tooltip is significantly higher than most burst skills in the game, and can be even further amplified by Incap's 20% extra damage, Onslaught's 85% penetration, and 10% more critical damage from a NB passive. Furthermore, a spectral bow or onslaught/incap from stealth is a guaranteed critical strike, which is a huge advantage compared to other classes that have to stack a lot of critical chance in order to reliably crit their attacks.
Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc1 -
Vlad9425✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nerftheforums wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »nosecookie wrote: »Your train of thought is wrong. The best players at a class are the showcase at how good a class can perform. They are the benchmark. If you try to balance for people that play below that level (which is most), you're balancing for casual play.
Also you said something along the lines that Incap is worse than Onlsaught. I gave you a source where you could look for yourself why it isn't the case. Just wanted to help.
Oh stop embarrassing yourself, if you think Incap is better than Onslaught then you either don't play the game enough and certainly don't play the NB class or you're just here trolling. Also nobody on here needs you telling them that their "train of thought is wrong" based on some video you watched where presumably the guy that made it cut out all the bits where he gets killed and shoves in the best clips of him killing potatoes which as I said can be done on any class. If the "benchmark" is putting together a few of the best clips then by that logic nearly everyone who PvPs can throw together clips of them killing bad players and you immediately consider that a benchmark LOL.
Incaps 20% damage amplification is a vulnerability effect, which means it's getting directly subtracted from CP mitigation, which makes it so much more potent in PvP than flat penetration for example from onslaught.
The 20% damage amplification makes up for around 15-16k flat pen, and considering you'd want to stack penetration on a stamnb anyway because its the best stat to increase your damage, you'd prefer to use incap in such scenario.
With only Spriggan, a maul and about 20 points into the penetration star you end up penetrating a 24k resistance target for a whole 12554
If you were to use onslaught now, you'd only get a pen boost of about 11,4k.
Incap out damages that.
Now someone would probably argue "but but but why use spriggan's with 2h ult?"
You wouldn't. Even if you wouldn't use spriggan, onslaught would give you 15k pen then, still less damage than incap.
On top of that Incap is a kit enabler for Nightblades, without a damage amplifier, a NB hardly does any damage
Having the enabler being so cheap is very important for the classes pace in PvP for soloing. Incap and bow proc is basically like a bolt action gun. You shoot and have to back off to reload. Onslaught makes that reloading alot alot alot slower.
The only thing that's better about onslaught is the initial damage, but considering running incap allows you to stack penetration sets, the gap closes a bit there too. Of course onslaught still hits a *** of harder, but like, do you really want it if you have other skills that hit just as hard after an incap? And don't forget that literally everybody runs pen cp star, which becomes useless, together with the maul, when onslaught is used.
-Sniker
DBoS has a tooltip just as high as Incap but with a Stun and deadly DOT to follow which can be timed with spectral bow much better than it can with Incap due to the stun and Onslaught gives you insane resistances on top of max Pen as well as being AOE no matter what set you Spec into. The silence on Incap is garbage and doesn't serve much purpose at all and this slight damage increase you speak of lasts for 6 seconds by which time good players either stun the NB, out heal it, block it roll it or even Cloak away from it. Also most NBs I see in game have also dropped Incap for one of the 2 Ults I listed above. Also I'd love to see all the non NB players who seem to comment on Incap actually try the Ult for themselves and see how garbage it truly is in practice instead of reading numbers in comments.
Maybe you should try the skills you think are so much better than our class ultimate. Read them before trying, you never know, maybe they don't do exactly what you think they do.
Yes you're right our class Ultimate is so OP that nearly every NB I speak to has already dropped it from their build for Onslaught but what do I know keep going round and melting people with your overpowered Incap while the rest of us use those inferior Ultimates you speak so lowly of...1 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
I dueled a cp 768 stamblade that regularly kills me with 16k onslaught, 9k surprise attacks. I was in heavy armor. No magsorc can even come close to that burst damage.
And?
Completely irrelevant, but you lost to a better player who was probably on a better build. Perhaps roll dodge?
The point was about burst damage. Any class that can stack damage has more burst potential than nightblades. You literally are making the point. Here it is again for those that missed it:
“The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities.”
You responded to that with tooltips. Lol
You don't need to tell me about skill level, or how to play the game, it's irrelevant. Did you completely miss the 16k onslaught mention? I was using the most damage set up in the game, but i still did considerably less damage compared to his. The class just has passives and skills that make them the best at dealing burst damage. Why did I respond with tooltips? Because NB are the best at dealing critical damage. No class in the game has access to that 10% more crit damage, and crits are what kills people, not normal damage.
What did you say that you feel changes the originally point?
What does more damage:
A nightblades onslaught, with whatever sets you prefer?
Or
Onslaught and backlash/sub assault, etc combined?
You’re focusing on nightblades achieving a high tooltip value on a single ability. But the point is, that ability can be combined with other abilities on other classes in a single gcd. That results in combined abilities having higher “burst potential.”
The extra damage a nightblade can achieve on a single ability will not outweigh the extra damage an ability like backlash or sub assault will add.
The tooltip was just a demonstration. My point was the 16k onslaught was possible because of the extra passives and buffs that a stamblade has but other classes don't. These extra advantages complement other skills as well, not just Onslaught.
If you want to compare combinations of skills, then a NB following an ultimate with a spectral bow will still deal considerably more damage than ultimate + sub assault or ultimate + backlash, or ultimate + haunting curse + frag for that matter. This is because Spectral Bow's tooltip is significantly higher than most burst skills in the game, and can be even further amplified by Incap's 20% extra damage, Onslaught's 85% penetration, and 10% more critical damage from a NB passive. Furthermore, a spectral bow or onslaught/incap from stealth is a guaranteed critical strike, which is a huge advantage compared to other classes that have to stack a lot of critical chance in order to reliably crit their attacks.
You’re making a claim that nightblades achieve a higher onslaught than any other class.
Of course we aren’t about making baseless claims, so what is the highest onslaught possible by each class?
(I’m assuming you know, otherwise you wouldn’t claim nightblades have the highest)1 -
SenpaiNFT✭✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Luckylancer wrote: »Interesting list. Why stamdk is so low? He feels better generaly. Maybe 1 tier better. And how can stamden be S in solo? How can they kill someone better than others with last nerfs to stamden's best build? What is his superior kite options againts others?
Stamsorc so low, no wonders. They dont bring anything to group play and they are average at solo.
Stamdk lacks a reliable way of dealing with ranged attacks, wings don't count here as they come at the cost of survivability against other specs or offence as barspace is somewhat an issue.
Stamdk got it's rating mainly from a 1vX point of vier as it can give most classes a tough fight in 1v1s.
But in 1vX you lack the mobility to kite and thus run into situations where you can only tank but fail to kill people.
For an A tier spec they would have to have a good option of dealing with zergs or bring something outstanding with them which them.
Doesn’t this contradict Stamblade being in the top tier for solo builds? I mean, a stamblade has zero chance of taking out multiple players but they’re top tier because they can run away with cloak? Seems like Stamblade is being held to a different standard with the only answer being ‘because cloak’.
In general most rankings are fine, but Stamblade being too high and Stamplar too low stand out the most as ‘WTFs’. DK a little low too.
No, they are top tier because they are very mobile and they can kite/handle multiple opponents at once and take them out one by one. They are not held on a different standard. They were always top tier for solo open world and will always be there because of how the class is designed.
Saying that, “they are” isn’t really accomplishing anything. Examples and details are best.
They have shade, cloak and single target attacks. None of which lends itself well to defeating groups which is why it’s one of the weaker classes for high end bg/group play; just escaping them. That’s in addition to the fact that coordinated groups utilize tons of AoE resulting in cloak being of little use. They're forced into solo situations due to lacking in groups. (Plus all classes can invis pot and undo to similar effect)
And if we are basing, solo off of 1 facing groups than it really is a red flag to the list. Kiting groups and fighting 1 at a time is 1vX’ing bad groups that separate and overextend. Which would be a different standard tbh. Nightblades are not “S” vs coordinated groups. Meanwhile there are classes that can kill multiple targets simultaneously. The solo category seems to be mostly about exiting fight.
I said solo open world, not group play. Stick to the topic. They are not top tier in group play. You can literally see that in the rankings. Please read before you respond.
And yes NBs are not S tier vs coordinated groups. No class can handle coordinated groups. The criteria for solo play are prety clear. Ability to self sustain, stay alive, kiting and fighting multiple people of lower skill level than you because you are not going to 1vX people of equal skill level no matter which class you are playing. The two classes which have always stood on top in solo play despite the nerfs, are stamblades and mag sorcs because of how well they are designed for solo play. They just fit those criteria perfectly.
Saying that stamblades are not S tier in solo play because they are not good in groups and because they cant kill coordinated groups is just a strawman argument. You are literally putting ur own criteria with the sole purpose of saying that stamblades arent good.
My point is if Stamblades were good against multiple opponents you’d see it in BGs. Every NB I’ve seen or spoken with chooses targets based off their health and tankiness and gives up if they think it’ll be a challenge or a fight they won’t win.
There’s a huge difference between multiple people being in the vacinity and picking off one soft target and taking on multiple targets 1vX. If Stamblades were truly good against multiple opponents it would come across in BGs, but they aren’t, so it doesn’t. Saying they’re good at their niche is one thing. Saying they’re good in general against multiple people is nonsense.
You also assume I’m a stamblade, I am not, and have no clue where I play on PC-NA. You’re just guessing and assuming arrogance will deter people from dissenting, because you think you’re talking from a position of knowledge of being in the know, when actually you’re just parroting others and demonstrating the inability to reframe the strengths of classes with changes to the game.
I’ve seen the type a lot before, until someone tells you things have changed who’s a better player than you and you probably kiss their butt you won’t believe it.
As for BGs, well I’m PC-NA so have no idea who those names are or their skill levels. On PC-NA you would never see a stamblade do that well in higher MMR, only low or beginner tiers including the best Stamblades on PC-NA.
Solo OW =\= Battlegrounds
Get that through your head. Your claim that if they were good Solo you’d see them in BGs is a blatant Strawman; BGs are small-group oriented, not solo.
Your entire argument is flawed.7 -
ThePhantomThorn✭✭✭✭i hate to say it...
but magsorc should be s in solo.
as a nb main i hope things will be better but i doubt to wrathstone level.
not saying sorc should be nerfed, i think nb should be buffed to sorc lvl.
there very similar specs. with the high mobility and burst. sorcs just stronger rn. the one thing that holds nb back is tankyness. sorc has tankyness.
other than that i like most of the list.
Edited by ThePhantomThorn on October 29, 2019 1:05AM5 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
I dueled a cp 768 stamblade that regularly kills me with 16k onslaught, 9k surprise attacks. I was in heavy armor. No magsorc can even come close to that burst damage.
And?
Completely irrelevant, but you lost to a better player who was probably on a better build. Perhaps roll dodge?
The point was about burst damage. Any class that can stack damage has more burst potential than nightblades. You literally are making the point. Here it is again for those that missed it:
“The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities.”
You responded to that with tooltips. Lol
You don't need to tell me about skill level, or how to play the game, it's irrelevant. Did you completely miss the 16k onslaught mention? I was using the most damage set up in the game, but i still did considerably less damage compared to his. The class just has passives and skills that make them the best at dealing burst damage. Why did I respond with tooltips? Because NB are the best at dealing critical damage. No class in the game has access to that 10% more crit damage, and crits are what kills people, not normal damage.
What did you say that you feel changes the originally point?
What does more damage:
A nightblades onslaught, with whatever sets you prefer?
Or
Onslaught and backlash/sub assault, etc combined?
You’re focusing on nightblades achieving a high tooltip value on a single ability. But the point is, that ability can be combined with other abilities on other classes in a single gcd. That results in combined abilities having higher “burst potential.”
The extra damage a nightblade can achieve on a single ability will not outweigh the extra damage an ability like backlash or sub assault will add.
The tooltip was just a demonstration. My point was the 16k onslaught was possible because of the extra passives and buffs that a stamblade has but other classes don't. These extra advantages complement other skills as well, not just Onslaught.
If you want to compare combinations of skills, then a NB following an ultimate with a spectral bow will still deal considerably more damage than ultimate + sub assault or ultimate + backlash, or ultimate + haunting curse + frag for that matter. This is because Spectral Bow's tooltip is significantly higher than most burst skills in the game, and can be even further amplified by Incap's 20% extra damage, Onslaught's 85% penetration, and 10% more critical damage from a NB passive. Furthermore, a spectral bow or onslaught/incap from stealth is a guaranteed critical strike, which is a huge advantage compared to other classes that have to stack a lot of critical chance in order to reliably crit their attacks.
You’re making a claim that nightblades achieve a higher onslaught than any other class.
Of course we aren’t about making baseless claims, so what is the highest onslaught possible by each class?
(I’m assuming you know, otherwise you wouldn’t claim nightblades have the highest)
Yes, I'm making a claim that Nightblades achieve a higher Onslaught than any other class. I'd figured you'd want the numbers, so here's a more detailed post. It's going to be long, so if you skip any part then it's on you.
First, let's look at all the class passives and skills that maximizes damage of each stamina class, while ignoring CP passives that could potentially boost damage, such as Exploiter, and skills that increase penetration since Onslaught ignores resistance. Also ignore Minor Berserk, because it is accessible by all classes. We only want passives/buffs that only a few classes can have.
Nightblade:
1/ Master Assassin - Increases your weapon damage by 10% while in stealth
2/ Ambush - Afflicts Minor Vulnerability on your target, increasing their damage taken by 8%
3/ Hemorrhage - Increases your critical damage by 10%
Sorcerer:
1/ Energized - Increases your physical damage by 5%
2/ Amplitude - Increases your damage done against enemies by 1% for every 10% current health they have, up to 10% at 100% health
3/ Expert Mage - Increases your weapon damage by 2% per Sorcerer ability slotted
4/ Bound Armaments - Increases your max stamina by 8% while slotted
Templar:
1/ Piercing Spear - Increases your critical damage by 10%
2/ Balanced Warrior - Increases your weapon damage by 6%
Warden:
1/ Growing Swarm - Afflicts Minor Vulnerability on your target, increasing their damage taken by 8%
2/ Advanced Species - Increases your damage done by 2% for each Animal Companion ability slotted
Necromancer:
1/ Agony Totem - Afflicts Minor Vulnerability on your target, increasing their damage taken by 8%
2/ Detonating Siphon - Increases your damage done by 3% while slotted
Dragonknight:
1/ Mountain's Blessing - Gain Major Brutality, increasing your weapon damage by 10%
2/ Stone Giant - Increases damage taken by 45 for each stack of Stagger, up to 135 damage
Now that we've listed every single damage amplifier for each class, let's calculate how the tooltip would look. For demonstration purposes, let's assume we are using Fury + Briarheart, 5 medium 2 heavy, all impenetrable, all max stam glyphs, all infused jewelries, nirnhoned 2 handed weapon front bar, infused weapon damage glyph back bar, warrior mundus, orc race, and lava foot soup food on each class. Also assume that classes that have passives amplifying weapon damage by slotting a class skill will be slotting 5 class skills on their bar. Thus, the maximum WD and stamina for each of these classes will be:
Nightblade:
6910 WD and 34965 stamina
Sorcerer:
6910 WD and 37221 stamina
Templar:
6720 WD and 34965 stamina
Warden:
6434 WD and 34965 stamina
Necromancer:
6434 WD and 34965 stamina
Dragonknight:
6910 WD and 34695 stamina
To keep things simpler, let's ignore CPs that boost tooltip value such as Mighty and Master At Arms. Factor in every passive and skills that increases damage done, the Onslaught tooltip for each class will be:
Nightblade:
19570 damage
Sorcerer:
22818 damage
Templar:
19074 damage
Warden:
20384 damage
Necromancer:
19087 damage
Dragonknight:
19570 damage
From this list, we can see that at base damage, Sorcerer has the highest tooltip. However, we must also factor in critical damage tooltip. The base critical damage multiplier is 50%, and Nightblade and Templar get an extra 10%. Assuming that our target has zero critical resistance, then our new tooltip values will be:
Nightblade:
31312 damage
Sorcerer:
34227 damage
Templar:
30518.4 damage
Warden:
30576 damage
Necromancer:
28630.5 damage
Dragonknight:
29355 damage
Sorcerer still has the highest tooltip, but we have not taken into account of Minor Vulnerability, which increases damage taken by your target. This requires using this formula:
DamageTaken = (1 + CP.DamageTaken)*(1 + Skill.DamageTaken)*(1 + Buff.DamageTaken)*(1 + Item.DamageTaken)*(1 + Set.DamageTaken) + Buff.Vulnerability - 1
Since Battle Spirit reduces a target''s damage taken by 50%, the actual Onslaught tooltip will be halved. Factor in Minor Vulnerability however, a target affected by this debuff will take 42% less damage instead of 50%. In other words, Minor Vulnerability makes an affected target take 58% of the base damage instead of 50%.
DamageTaken = (1 + 0)*(1 + 0)*(1 - 0.5)*(1 + 0)*(1 + 0) + 0.08 - 1 = -0.42 or -42% damage taken
Thus, our new tooltip will be:
Nightblade:
18160.96 damage
Sorcerer:
17113.5 damage
Templar:
15259.2 damage
Warden:
17734.08 damage
Necromancer:
16605.69 damage
Dragonknight:
14677.5 damage
What do we take from these calculations? Well, against a full Health target, Sorcerer's onslaught does the most critical damage, but when you factor in Minor Vulnerability, Nightblade comes out on top. Keep in mind, we're using an unrealistic skill setup by having Sorcerer and Warden slot 5 class skills on their bar to maximize their damage. If we use a practical setup for both classes, which involves using 2 weapon skills for Sorcerer and Warden, then their Onslaught tooltip would be 16803 and 17089.41, respectively. Hence, the ranking for these tooltips should be:
Without Minor Vulnerability:
Sorcerer > Nightblade > Templar > Warden > Dragonknight > Necromancer
With Minor Vulnerability:
Nightblade > Warden > Sorcerer > Necromancer > Templar > Dragonknight
Minor vulnerability is incredibly strong, and when combined with a Nightblade's passives, you can slot any ultimate in the game and have your Nightblade deal unparalleled damage. We haven't even take into account of Spectral Bow and Surprise Attack, which also benefit tremendously from this debuff. That's why NB currently has the best burst in the game. If we use the WD and stamina stats above, a Warden using Sub Assault + Onslaught will only do a total of 30707.52 damage, compared to 36632.35 damage of a Nightblade's Onslaught from stealth + Spectral Bow (Spectral Bow loses the 10% weapon damage after using Onslaught because the player is no longer in stealth).
If you've made it this far, then I expect you to not have anymore questions.
Cheers
EDIT: I intentionally left out Minor Berserk from the calculations because as of current patch, all classes can access that buff. A Warden can either choose to use Camo Hunter or Bird of Prey, and that will slightly alter the final tooltip, but not significantlyEdited by StaticWave on October 29, 2019 6:14AMPlatform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc7 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭People who says stamNB is not S-tier for open world does not know how to play NBs. There are never been a better open world class. Hell, even in Scalebreaker, I would have ranked stamNB S-tier for open world.1 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭nosecookie wrote: »Although you do seem to realize that GvG and BGs are a different thing, you fail to realize that Cyrodiil - which the tier list is for - and BGs are a different thing as well.
Also ganking is it's own playstyle apart from 1vX, small- or bigscale. Someone knowledgeable about Cyrodiil would know that.
Well let me simplify it for you, you have Stamblades down as top tier for solo play.
Are Stamblades great in duels? No
Are Stamblades great in BGs? No
Are Stamblades a threat to experienced players, moreso than other classes? No
So where are the comments about them being strong vs multiple opponents, much less one opponent coming from? The only thing left is choosing engagements to pick off newer players in cyrodiil.
NBs can be good in BGs the following screenshots come from high MMR BGs on PC EU.
The matches were played to support NBs strength in solo play by separating people and killing them one by one
Neither stam nb nor sniker is doing good in bgs... Play more bgs if you dont believe me. I don't know the guy personally, have nothing against him - but I do remember him doing not very well the majority of matches I saw him. Those cherrypicked screenshots with you telling some second hand "assassin separating people" story made me seriously laugh and selling it as the standard sniker nb (speshul tactics, ugh ugh) bg experience is pure comedy to anyone who actually plays bgs.
Apart from that, your tier list is solid work. Might disagree here and there a tiny bit - but overall pretty spot on.Edited by Mojomonkeyman on October 29, 2019 5:22AMKoma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy5 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
I dueled a cp 768 stamblade that regularly kills me with 16k onslaught, 9k surprise attacks. I was in heavy armor. No magsorc can even come close to that burst damage.
And?
Completely irrelevant, but you lost to a better player who was probably on a better build. Perhaps roll dodge?
The point was about burst damage. Any class that can stack damage has more burst potential than nightblades. You literally are making the point. Here it is again for those that missed it:
“The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities.”
You responded to that with tooltips. Lol
You don't need to tell me about skill level, or how to play the game, it's irrelevant. Did you completely miss the 16k onslaught mention? I was using the most damage set up in the game, but i still did considerably less damage compared to his. The class just has passives and skills that make them the best at dealing burst damage. Why did I respond with tooltips? Because NB are the best at dealing critical damage. No class in the game has access to that 10% more crit damage, and crits are what kills people, not normal damage.
What did you say that you feel changes the originally point?
What does more damage:
A nightblades onslaught, with whatever sets you prefer?
Or
Onslaught and backlash/sub assault, etc combined?
You’re focusing on nightblades achieving a high tooltip value on a single ability. But the point is, that ability can be combined with other abilities on other classes in a single gcd. That results in combined abilities having higher “burst potential.”
The extra damage a nightblade can achieve on a single ability will not outweigh the extra damage an ability like backlash or sub assault will add.
The tooltip was just a demonstration. My point was the 16k onslaught was possible because of the extra passives and buffs that a stamblade has but other classes don't. These extra advantages complement other skills as well, not just Onslaught.
If you want to compare combinations of skills, then a NB following an ultimate with a spectral bow will still deal considerably more damage than ultimate + sub assault or ultimate + backlash, or ultimate + haunting curse + frag for that matter. This is because Spectral Bow's tooltip is significantly higher than most burst skills in the game, and can be even further amplified by Incap's 20% extra damage, Onslaught's 85% penetration, and 10% more critical damage from a NB passive. Furthermore, a spectral bow or onslaught/incap from stealth is a guaranteed critical strike, which is a huge advantage compared to other classes that have to stack a lot of critical chance in order to reliably crit their attacks.
You’re making a claim that nightblades achieve a higher onslaught than any other class.
Of course we aren’t about making baseless claims, so what is the highest onslaught possible by each class?
(I’m assuming you know, otherwise you wouldn’t claim nightblades have the highest)
Yes, I'm making a claim that Nightblades achieve a higher Onslaught than any other class. I'd figured you'd want the numbers, so here's a more detailed post. It's going to be long, so if you skip any part then it's on you.
First, let's look at all the class passives and skills that maximizes damage of each stamina class, while ignoring CP passives that could potentially boost damage, such as Exploiter, and skills that increase penetration since Onslaught ignores resistance. Also ignore Minor Berserk, because it is accessible by all classes. We only want passives/buffs that only a few classes can have.
Nightblade:
1/ Master Assassin - Increases your weapon damage by 10% while in stealth
2/ Ambush - Afflicts Minor Vulnerability on your target, increasing their damage taken by 8%
3/ Hemorrhage - Increases your critical damage by 10%
Sorcerer:
1/ Energized - Increases your physical damage by 5%
2/ Amplitude - Increases your damage done against enemies by 1% for every 10% current health they have, up to 10% at 100% health
3/ Expert Mage - Increases your weapon damage by 2% per Sorcerer ability slotted
4/ Bound Armaments - Increases your max stamina by 8% while slotted
Templar:
1/ Piercing Spear - Increases your critical damage by 10%
2/ Balanced Warrior - Increases your weapon damage by 6%
Warden:
1/ Growing Swarm - Afflicts Minor Vulnerability on your target, increasing their damage taken by 8%
2/ Advanced Species - Increases your damage done by 2% for each Animal Companion ability slotted
Necromancer:
1/ Agony Totem - Afflicts Minor Vulnerability on your target, increasing their damage taken by 8%
2/ Detonating Siphon - Increases your damage done by 3% while slotted
Dragonknight:
1/ Mountain's Blessing - Gain Major Brutality, increasing your weapon damage by 10%
2/ Stone Giant - Increases damage taken by 45 for each stack of Stagger, up to 135 damage
Now that we've listed every single damage amplifier for each class, let's calculate how the tooltip would look. For demonstration purposes, let's assume we are using Fury + Briarheart, 5 medium 2 heavy, all impenetrable, all max stam glyphs, all infused jewelries, nirnhoned 2 handed weapon front bar, infused weapon damage glyph back bar, warrior mundus, orc race, and lava foot soup food on each class. Also assume that classes that have passives amplifying weapon damage by slotting a class skill will be slotting 5 class skills on their bar. Thus, the maximum WD and stamina for each of these classes will be:
Nightblade:
6910 WD and 34965 stamina
Sorcerer:
6910 WD and 37221 stamina
Templar:
6720 WD and 34965 stamina
Warden:
6434 WD and 34965 stamina
Necromancer:
6434 WD and 34965 stamina
Dragonknight:
6910 WD and 34695 stamina
To keep things simpler, let's ignore CPs that boost tooltip value such as Mighty and Master At Arms. Factor in every passive and skills that increases damage done, the Onslaught tooltip for each class will be:
Nightblade:
19570 damage
Sorcerer:
22818 damage
Templar:
19074 damage
Warden:
20384 damage
Necromancer:
19087 damage
Dragonknight:
19570 damage
From this list, we can see that at base damage, Sorcerer has the highest tooltip. However, we must also factor in critical damage tooltip. The base critical damage multiplier is 50%, and Nightblade and Templar get an extra 10%. Assuming that our target has zero critical resistance, then our new tooltip values will be:
Nightblade:
31312 damage
Sorcerer:
34227 damage
Templar:
30518.4 damage
Warden:
30576 damage
Necromancer:
28630.5 damage
Dragonknight:
29355 damage
Sorcerer still has the highest tooltip, but we have not taken into account of Minor Vulnerability, which increases damage taken by your target. This requires using this formula:
DamageTaken = (1 + CP.DamageTaken)*(1 + Skill.DamageTaken)*(1 + Buff.DamageTaken)*(1 + Item.DamageTaken)*(1 + Set.DamageTaken) + Buff.Vulnerability - 1
Since Battle Spirit reduces a target''s damage taken by 50%, the actual Onslaught tooltip will be halved. Factor in Minor Vulnerability however, a target affected by this debuff will take 42% less damage instead of 50%. In other words, Minor Vulnerability makes an affected target take 58% of the base damage instead of 50%.
DamageTaken = (1 + 0)*(1 + 0)*(1 - 0.5)*(1 + 0)*(1 + 0) + 0.08 - 1 = -0.42 or -42% damage taken
Thus, our new tooltip will be:
Nightblade:
18160.96 damage
Sorcerer:
17113.5 damage
Templar:
15259.2 damage
Warden:
17734.08 damage
Necromancer:
16605.69 damage
Dragonknight:
14677.5 damage
What do we take from these calculations? Well, against a full Health target, Sorcerer's onslaught does the most critical damage, but when you factor in Minor Vulnerability, Nightblade comes out on top. Keep in mind, we're using an unrealistic skill setup by having Sorcerer and Warden slot 5 class skills on their bar to maximize their damage. If we use a practical setup for both classes, which involves using 2 weapon skills for Sorcerer and Warden, then their Onslaught tooltip would be 16803 and 17089.41, respectively. Hence, the ranking for these tooltips should be:
Without Minor Vulnerability:
Sorcerer > Nightblade > Templar > Warden > Dragonknight > Necromancer
With Minor Vulnerability:
Nightblade > Warden > Sorcerer > Necromancer > Templar > Dragonknight
If you've made it this far, then I expect you to not have anymore questions about why NB does so much damage.
Cheers
I truly applaud the effort. I really do. I almost giggled when I saw the length that you went to. Bravo.
But the irony is that it actually makes the same point this quote chain is based on.
My post from many quotes ago:
“The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities.
They just have a high tooltip value.”
Again, you did a great comparison. But as I stated from the outset, nightblades have high tooltips. So we agree there. Never argued otherwise. But when they land that ability that’s all they’re landing in a gcd. That’s it. Other classes can stack other abilities on top of those tooltips.
0 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
I dueled a cp 768 stamblade that regularly kills me with 16k onslaught, 9k surprise attacks. I was in heavy armor. No magsorc can even come close to that burst damage.
And?
Completely irrelevant, but you lost to a better player who was probably on a better build. Perhaps roll dodge?
The point was about burst damage. Any class that can stack damage has more burst potential than nightblades. You literally are making the point. Here it is again for those that missed it:
“The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities.”
You responded to that with tooltips. Lol
You don't need to tell me about skill level, or how to play the game, it's irrelevant. Did you completely miss the 16k onslaught mention? I was using the most damage set up in the game, but i still did considerably less damage compared to his. The class just has passives and skills that make them the best at dealing burst damage. Why did I respond with tooltips? Because NB are the best at dealing critical damage. No class in the game has access to that 10% more crit damage, and crits are what kills people, not normal damage.
What did you say that you feel changes the originally point?
What does more damage:
A nightblades onslaught, with whatever sets you prefer?
Or
Onslaught and backlash/sub assault, etc combined?
You’re focusing on nightblades achieving a high tooltip value on a single ability. But the point is, that ability can be combined with other abilities on other classes in a single gcd. That results in combined abilities having higher “burst potential.”
The extra damage a nightblade can achieve on a single ability will not outweigh the extra damage an ability like backlash or sub assault will add.
The tooltip was just a demonstration. My point was the 16k onslaught was possible because of the extra passives and buffs that a stamblade has but other classes don't. These extra advantages complement other skills as well, not just Onslaught.
If you want to compare combinations of skills, then a NB following an ultimate with a spectral bow will still deal considerably more damage than ultimate + sub assault or ultimate + backlash, or ultimate + haunting curse + frag for that matter. This is because Spectral Bow's tooltip is significantly higher than most burst skills in the game, and can be even further amplified by Incap's 20% extra damage, Onslaught's 85% penetration, and 10% more critical damage from a NB passive. Furthermore, a spectral bow or onslaught/incap from stealth is a guaranteed critical strike, which is a huge advantage compared to other classes that have to stack a lot of critical chance in order to reliably crit their attacks.
You’re making a claim that nightblades achieve a higher onslaught than any other class.
Of course we aren’t about making baseless claims, so what is the highest onslaught possible by each class?
(I’m assuming you know, otherwise you wouldn’t claim nightblades have the highest)
Yes, I'm making a claim that Nightblades achieve a higher Onslaught than any other class. I'd figured you'd want the numbers, so here's a more detailed post. It's going to be long, so if you skip any part then it's on you.
First, let's look at all the class passives and skills that maximizes damage of each stamina class, while ignoring CP passives that could potentially boost damage, such as Exploiter, and skills that increase penetration since Onslaught ignores resistance. Also ignore Minor Berserk, because it is accessible by all classes. We only want passives/buffs that only a few classes can have.
Nightblade:
1/ Master Assassin - Increases your weapon damage by 10% while in stealth
2/ Ambush - Afflicts Minor Vulnerability on your target, increasing their damage taken by 8%
3/ Hemorrhage - Increases your critical damage by 10%
Sorcerer:
1/ Energized - Increases your physical damage by 5%
2/ Amplitude - Increases your damage done against enemies by 1% for every 10% current health they have, up to 10% at 100% health
3/ Expert Mage - Increases your weapon damage by 2% per Sorcerer ability slotted
4/ Bound Armaments - Increases your max stamina by 8% while slotted
Templar:
1/ Piercing Spear - Increases your critical damage by 10%
2/ Balanced Warrior - Increases your weapon damage by 6%
Warden:
1/ Growing Swarm - Afflicts Minor Vulnerability on your target, increasing their damage taken by 8%
2/ Advanced Species - Increases your damage done by 2% for each Animal Companion ability slotted
Necromancer:
1/ Agony Totem - Afflicts Minor Vulnerability on your target, increasing their damage taken by 8%
2/ Detonating Siphon - Increases your damage done by 3% while slotted
Dragonknight:
1/ Mountain's Blessing - Gain Major Brutality, increasing your weapon damage by 10%
2/ Stone Giant - Increases damage taken by 45 for each stack of Stagger, up to 135 damage
Now that we've listed every single damage amplifier for each class, let's calculate how the tooltip would look. For demonstration purposes, let's assume we are using Fury + Briarheart, 5 medium 2 heavy, all impenetrable, all max stam glyphs, all infused jewelries, nirnhoned 2 handed weapon front bar, infused weapon damage glyph back bar, warrior mundus, orc race, and lava foot soup food on each class. Also assume that classes that have passives amplifying weapon damage by slotting a class skill will be slotting 5 class skills on their bar. Thus, the maximum WD and stamina for each of these classes will be:
Nightblade:
6910 WD and 34965 stamina
Sorcerer:
6910 WD and 37221 stamina
Templar:
6720 WD and 34965 stamina
Warden:
6434 WD and 34965 stamina
Necromancer:
6434 WD and 34965 stamina
Dragonknight:
6910 WD and 34695 stamina
To keep things simpler, let's ignore CPs that boost tooltip value such as Mighty and Master At Arms. Factor in every passive and skills that increases damage done, the Onslaught tooltip for each class will be:
Nightblade:
19570 damage
Sorcerer:
22818 damage
Templar:
19074 damage
Warden:
20384 damage
Necromancer:
19087 damage
Dragonknight:
19570 damage
From this list, we can see that at base damage, Sorcerer has the highest tooltip. However, we must also factor in critical damage tooltip. The base critical damage multiplier is 50%, and Nightblade and Templar get an extra 10%. Assuming that our target has zero critical resistance, then our new tooltip values will be:
Nightblade:
31312 damage
Sorcerer:
34227 damage
Templar:
30518.4 damage
Warden:
30576 damage
Necromancer:
28630.5 damage
Dragonknight:
29355 damage
Sorcerer still has the highest tooltip, but we have not taken into account of Minor Vulnerability, which increases damage taken by your target. This requires using this formula:
DamageTaken = (1 + CP.DamageTaken)*(1 + Skill.DamageTaken)*(1 + Buff.DamageTaken)*(1 + Item.DamageTaken)*(1 + Set.DamageTaken) + Buff.Vulnerability - 1
Since Battle Spirit reduces a target''s damage taken by 50%, the actual Onslaught tooltip will be halved. Factor in Minor Vulnerability however, a target affected by this debuff will take 42% less damage instead of 50%. In other words, Minor Vulnerability makes an affected target take 58% of the base damage instead of 50%.
DamageTaken = (1 + 0)*(1 + 0)*(1 - 0.5)*(1 + 0)*(1 + 0) + 0.08 - 1 = -0.42 or -42% damage taken
Thus, our new tooltip will be:
Nightblade:
18160.96 damage
Sorcerer:
17113.5 damage
Templar:
15259.2 damage
Warden:
17734.08 damage
Necromancer:
16605.69 damage
Dragonknight:
14677.5 damage
What do we take from these calculations? Well, against a full Health target, Sorcerer's onslaught does the most critical damage, but when you factor in Minor Vulnerability, Nightblade comes out on top. Keep in mind, we're using an unrealistic skill setup by having Sorcerer and Warden slot 5 class skills on their bar to maximize their damage. If we use a practical setup for both classes, which involves using 2 weapon skills for Sorcerer and Warden, then their Onslaught tooltip would be 16803 and 17089.41, respectively. Hence, the ranking for these tooltips should be:
Without Minor Vulnerability:
Sorcerer > Nightblade > Templar > Warden > Dragonknight > Necromancer
With Minor Vulnerability:
Nightblade > Warden > Sorcerer > Necromancer > Templar > Dragonknight
If you've made it this far, then I expect you to not have anymore questions about why NB does so much damage.
Cheers
I truly applaud the effort. I really do. I almost giggled when I saw the length that you went to. Bravo.
But the irony is that it actually makes the same point this quote chain is based on.
My post from many quotes ago:
“The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities.
They just have a high tooltip value.”
Again, you did a great comparison. But as I stated from the outset, nightblades have high tooltips. So we agree there. Never argued otherwise. But when they land that ability that’s all they’re landing in a gcd. That’s it. Other classes can stack other abilities on top of those tooltips.
Well you wanted the numbers lol. I edited the post a few times, including an explanation for why a NB's ultimate + spectral bow combo still does more dmg than subassault + ultimate. I current do not know the highest damage setup for a magsorc, so I don't know the tooltip for it, but I assume it's comparable in burst damage.
Minor vulnerability is incredibly strong, and when combined with a Nightblade's passives, you can slot any ultimate in the game and have your Nightblade deal unparalleled damage. We haven't even take into account of Spectral Bow and Surprise Attack, which also benefit tremendously from this debuff. That's why NB currently has the best burst in the game. If we use the WD and stamina stats above, a Warden using Sub Assault + Onslaught will only do a total of 30707.52 damage, compared to 36632.35 damage of a Nightblade's Onslaught from stealth + Spectral Bow (Spectral Bow loses the 10% weapon damage after using Onslaught because the player is no longer in stealth).
Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc1 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Alright, everyone please keep the post on topic, the discussion about incap vs other skills got kinda dominant and i don't want the thread to derail
I can state our reasoning for Stamnb being S-Tier again:
Stamnb brings cloak and shade to the table the most powerful combination of skills for kiting along with a toolkit based around upfront burst spikes and overall high mobility.
The upfront burst sets them apart from other specs which all rely on backloaded burst or sustained damage.
Having upfront burst is a huge benefit when dealing with more than just 3-4 enemies as offensive windows become very short.
The combination of shade and cloak give stamnb the best kiting options around obstacles like towers, different heights and key areas like east of nikels, North of Roe farm and the list goes on and on.
As long as you got sustain it's possible to kite whole zergs and pick people off, even from better groups as in order to chase a NB they have to split up or the NB will be able to teleport back to the shade without any risk.
Along with only 3 other specs (stamden, stamsorc and magsorc) stamnb can start fights wherever it wants, fight in OW and then make it to even distant LoS spots without risking being zerged down, granted this is a risk for stamden but still less than for other specs who are A tier and lower.
The last part of our solo category is how the class, with a build used for 1vX performs when being thrown into duels in OW (meaning the opponent isn't using a dedicated duel build either)
Which has been influenced a lot by this patch as scourge can once again hit good targets with its removed minimum travel time.
Even in normal duels a med blade is a solid A tier, something magsorc can't keep up with many good opponents and has to force draws.
As already mentioned in this post before, the NA sorcs who were involved have advocated for Magsorc to be in S Tier but after lengthy discussions we've put them into A Tier for now due to the nerf to shields via status effects and an upcoming meta with high defense that sorcs simply fail to break through when 1vXing (which people have to catch on first).4 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭One last point about stamnb in BGs.
A S tier spec in solo will never be able to compete with what a coordinated group of 4 can do and that's why people don't bring them into high MMR BGs very often because no one wants to bring a blade to a gun fight.
Having a selfish spec in a game mode that benefits premades most is being a detriment for your group.
Note, a solo stamnb in BGs will still have better results than other specs trying to compete solo in there, it's still not optimal.
4 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I think that once you have a list for solo tier, you should try some 1v1 or duels of an "S" tier vs "A" tier.As we got some great feedback on the forums, on Discord and in game we plan to make such a list for the following updates as well, with better explanations and more details.
If you have any ideas how to make the list better or just general suggestions feel free to reach out to us.
@HankTwo
Because a class can look good on paper, but if for example class at tier "A" will win in most cases vs class in "S" tier, then something is wrong I guess...
Solo implies solo ow, not duels (which greatly differ from random 1v1s in cyro). Dueling is a whole different issue, too situational to be statistically relevant, which is the reason why it was removed from the list (the first 4/5 iterations had dueling as a section).
Yes, I understand that. But on the other hand we have weird paradoxes like stam NB in "S" tier and mag Sorc in "A" tier. And we all know how such a 1v1 in Cyro usually ends. The scenarios in which sNB wins vs mSorc are very rare. Maybe only when ganking from stealth, using some ultra glass cannon build with 0 sutain & defense and hoping to catch sorc of guard.
I have to intervene here because that matchup favors the stamnb more than the sorc, especially this patch.
As the list was created around playing the class at its full potential a magsorc won't be able to ever kill the stamnb as frags are still delayed by at least 450ms (with absolutely no lag at point blank range) and the NB having a much higher and more reliable burst potential against the sorc who has to play around meteor to secure kills which the NB can counter by using cloak and shade to avoid being hit by the whole combo.
I don’t mean to intervene but I must correct 1 thing.
Nightblades DO NOT have higher burst potential than sorcs. A sorc can stack frag, curse, wrath and an ult of your choice, to all hit simultaneously. When a nightblade lands a bow proc or an incap, that’s all that’s landing. The sorc actually has much more burst potential along with some other classes.
The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities. Whether burst from one class is easier to land or not comes down to the player. But in a discussion of high end, nightblades lack burst potential. They just have a high tooltip value.
I dueled a cp 768 stamblade that regularly kills me with 16k onslaught, 9k surprise attacks. I was in heavy armor. No magsorc can even come close to that burst damage.
And?
Completely irrelevant, but you lost to a better player who was probably on a better build. Perhaps roll dodge?
The point was about burst damage. Any class that can stack damage has more burst potential than nightblades. You literally are making the point. Here it is again for those that missed it:
“The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities.”
You responded to that with tooltips. Lol
You don't need to tell me about skill level, or how to play the game, it's irrelevant. Did you completely miss the 16k onslaught mention? I was using the most damage set up in the game, but i still did considerably less damage compared to his. The class just has passives and skills that make them the best at dealing burst damage. Why did I respond with tooltips? Because NB are the best at dealing critical damage. No class in the game has access to that 10% more crit damage, and crits are what kills people, not normal damage.
What did you say that you feel changes the originally point?
What does more damage:
A nightblades onslaught, with whatever sets you prefer?
Or
Onslaught and backlash/sub assault, etc combined?
You’re focusing on nightblades achieving a high tooltip value on a single ability. But the point is, that ability can be combined with other abilities on other classes in a single gcd. That results in combined abilities having higher “burst potential.”
The extra damage a nightblade can achieve on a single ability will not outweigh the extra damage an ability like backlash or sub assault will add.
The tooltip was just a demonstration. My point was the 16k onslaught was possible because of the extra passives and buffs that a stamblade has but other classes don't. These extra advantages complement other skills as well, not just Onslaught.
If you want to compare combinations of skills, then a NB following an ultimate with a spectral bow will still deal considerably more damage than ultimate + sub assault or ultimate + backlash, or ultimate + haunting curse + frag for that matter. This is because Spectral Bow's tooltip is significantly higher than most burst skills in the game, and can be even further amplified by Incap's 20% extra damage, Onslaught's 85% penetration, and 10% more critical damage from a NB passive. Furthermore, a spectral bow or onslaught/incap from stealth is a guaranteed critical strike, which is a huge advantage compared to other classes that have to stack a lot of critical chance in order to reliably crit their attacks.
You’re making a claim that nightblades achieve a higher onslaught than any other class.
Of course we aren’t about making baseless claims, so what is the highest onslaught possible by each class?
(I’m assuming you know, otherwise you wouldn’t claim nightblades have the highest)
Yes, I'm making a claim that Nightblades achieve a higher Onslaught than any other class. I'd figured you'd want the numbers, so here's a more detailed post. It's going to be long, so if you skip any part then it's on you.
First, let's look at all the class passives and skills that maximizes damage of each stamina class, while ignoring CP passives that could potentially boost damage, such as Exploiter, and skills that increase penetration since Onslaught ignores resistance. Also ignore Minor Berserk, because it is accessible by all classes. We only want passives/buffs that only a few classes can have.
Nightblade:
1/ Master Assassin - Increases your weapon damage by 10% while in stealth
2/ Ambush - Afflicts Minor Vulnerability on your target, increasing their damage taken by 8%
3/ Hemorrhage - Increases your critical damage by 10%
Sorcerer:
1/ Energized - Increases your physical damage by 5%
2/ Amplitude - Increases your damage done against enemies by 1% for every 10% current health they have, up to 10% at 100% health
3/ Expert Mage - Increases your weapon damage by 2% per Sorcerer ability slotted
4/ Bound Armaments - Increases your max stamina by 8% while slotted
Templar:
1/ Piercing Spear - Increases your critical damage by 10%
2/ Balanced Warrior - Increases your weapon damage by 6%
Warden:
1/ Growing Swarm - Afflicts Minor Vulnerability on your target, increasing their damage taken by 8%
2/ Advanced Species - Increases your damage done by 2% for each Animal Companion ability slotted
Necromancer:
1/ Agony Totem - Afflicts Minor Vulnerability on your target, increasing their damage taken by 8%
2/ Detonating Siphon - Increases your damage done by 3% while slotted
Dragonknight:
1/ Mountain's Blessing - Gain Major Brutality, increasing your weapon damage by 10%
2/ Stone Giant - Increases damage taken by 45 for each stack of Stagger, up to 135 damage
Now that we've listed every single damage amplifier for each class, let's calculate how the tooltip would look. For demonstration purposes, let's assume we are using Fury + Briarheart, 5 medium 2 heavy, all impenetrable, all max stam glyphs, all infused jewelries, nirnhoned 2 handed weapon front bar, infused weapon damage glyph back bar, warrior mundus, orc race, and lava foot soup food on each class. Also assume that classes that have passives amplifying weapon damage by slotting a class skill will be slotting 5 class skills on their bar. Thus, the maximum WD and stamina for each of these classes will be:
Nightblade:
6910 WD and 34965 stamina
Sorcerer:
6910 WD and 37221 stamina
Templar:
6720 WD and 34965 stamina
Warden:
6434 WD and 34965 stamina
Necromancer:
6434 WD and 34965 stamina
Dragonknight:
6910 WD and 34695 stamina
To keep things simpler, let's ignore CPs that boost tooltip value such as Mighty and Master At Arms. Factor in every passive and skills that increases damage done, the Onslaught tooltip for each class will be:
Nightblade:
19570 damage
Sorcerer:
22818 damage
Templar:
19074 damage
Warden:
20384 damage
Necromancer:
19087 damage
Dragonknight:
19570 damage
From this list, we can see that at base damage, Sorcerer has the highest tooltip. However, we must also factor in critical damage tooltip. The base critical damage multiplier is 50%, and Nightblade and Templar get an extra 10%. Assuming that our target has zero critical resistance, then our new tooltip values will be:
Nightblade:
31312 damage
Sorcerer:
34227 damage
Templar:
30518.4 damage
Warden:
30576 damage
Necromancer:
28630.5 damage
Dragonknight:
29355 damage
Sorcerer still has the highest tooltip, but we have not taken into account of Minor Vulnerability, which increases damage taken by your target. This requires using this formula:
DamageTaken = (1 + CP.DamageTaken)*(1 + Skill.DamageTaken)*(1 + Buff.DamageTaken)*(1 + Item.DamageTaken)*(1 + Set.DamageTaken) + Buff.Vulnerability - 1
Since Battle Spirit reduces a target''s damage taken by 50%, the actual Onslaught tooltip will be halved. Factor in Minor Vulnerability however, a target affected by this debuff will take 42% less damage instead of 50%. In other words, Minor Vulnerability makes an affected target take 58% of the base damage instead of 50%.
DamageTaken = (1 + 0)*(1 + 0)*(1 - 0.5)*(1 + 0)*(1 + 0) + 0.08 - 1 = -0.42 or -42% damage taken
Thus, our new tooltip will be:
Nightblade:
18160.96 damage
Sorcerer:
17113.5 damage
Templar:
15259.2 damage
Warden:
17734.08 damage
Necromancer:
16605.69 damage
Dragonknight:
14677.5 damage
What do we take from these calculations? Well, against a full Health target, Sorcerer's onslaught does the most critical damage, but when you factor in Minor Vulnerability, Nightblade comes out on top. Keep in mind, we're using an unrealistic skill setup by having Sorcerer and Warden slot 5 class skills on their bar to maximize their damage. If we use a practical setup for both classes, which involves using 2 weapon skills for Sorcerer and Warden, then their Onslaught tooltip would be 16803 and 17089.41, respectively. Hence, the ranking for these tooltips should be:
Without Minor Vulnerability:
Sorcerer > Nightblade > Templar > Warden > Dragonknight > Necromancer
With Minor Vulnerability:
Nightblade > Warden > Sorcerer > Necromancer > Templar > Dragonknight
If you've made it this far, then I expect you to not have anymore questions about why NB does so much damage.
Cheers
I truly applaud the effort. I really do. I almost giggled when I saw the length that you went to. Bravo.
But the irony is that it actually makes the same point this quote chain is based on.
My post from many quotes ago:
“The misconception that nightblades have higher burst potential often comes from comparing tooltips and ignoring delayed effects that add to other abilities.
They just have a high tooltip value.”
Again, you did a great comparison. But as I stated from the outset, nightblades have high tooltips. So we agree there. Never argued otherwise. But when they land that ability that’s all they’re landing in a gcd. That’s it. Other classes can stack other abilities on top of those tooltips.
Well you wanted the numbers lol. I edited the post a few times, including an explanation for why a NB's ultimate + spectral bow combo still does more dmg than subassault + ultimate. I current do not know the highest damage setup for a magsorc, so I don't know the tooltip for it, but I assume it's comparable in burst damage.
Minor vulnerability is incredibly strong, and when combined with a Nightblade's passives, you can slot any ultimate in the game and have your Nightblade deal unparalleled damage. We haven't even take into account of Spectral Bow and Surprise Attack, which also benefit tremendously from this debuff. That's why NB currently has the best burst in the game. If we use the WD and stamina stats above, a Warden using Sub Assault + Onslaught will only do a total of 30707.52 damage, compared to 36632.35 damage of a Nightblade's Onslaught from stealth + Spectral Bow (Spectral Bow loses the 10% weapon damage after using Onslaught because the player is no longer in stealth).
Hey, even tho it’s sidebar I respect the work. It’s quality stuff. Props given.
But when you say onslaught into bow proc from stealth you’re talking about multiple gcd. The premise was about burst potential in a gcd. Adding stackable abilities to the numbers above makes it a very different list.
But adding more gcd makes it a different comparison. Just as adding in more targets would make it a different comparison. Not saying they aren’t valid. But different discussions.
Still, cool stuff0 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »nosecookie wrote: »Although you do seem to realize that GvG and BGs are a different thing, you fail to realize that Cyrodiil - which the tier list is for - and BGs are a different thing as well.
Also ganking is it's own playstyle apart from 1vX, small- or bigscale. Someone knowledgeable about Cyrodiil would know that.
Well let me simplify it for you, you have Stamblades down as top tier for solo play.
Are Stamblades great in duels? No
Are Stamblades great in BGs? No
Are Stamblades a threat to experienced players, moreso than other classes? No
So where are the comments about them being strong vs multiple opponents, much less one opponent coming from? The only thing left is choosing engagements to pick off newer players in cyrodiil.
NBs can be good in BGs the following screenshots come from high MMR BGs on PC EU.
The matches were played to support NBs strength in solo play by separating people and killing them one by one
Neither stam nb nor sniker is doing good in bgs... Play more bgs if you dont believe me. I don't know the guy personally, have nothing against him - but I do remember him doing not very well the majority of matches I saw him. Those cherrypicked screenshots with you telling some second hand "assassin separating people" story made me seriously laugh and selling it as the standard sniker nb (speshul tactics, ugh ugh) bg experience is pure comedy to anyone who actually plays bgs.
Apart from that, your tier list is solid work. Might disagree here and there a tiny bit - but overall pretty spot on.
Uhm...
Edited by Nerftheforums on October 29, 2019 9:33AM4 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »
There is no plan to achieve a result in terms of class balance etc.
It's a list which exists to avoid having people spread false information about how a class can perform due to their own bias.
The list of players in there contains long term players from each spec in the game who shine out at what they do, like sanct being the leader of the best ball group out there (former zerg squad, former banana squad).
If you doubt any of these players reach out to get more information of each one of them individually or challenge them directly to a duel.
Except that the list itself is a biased opinion.That's why you have plenty of other good players disputing it. Please don't think that your list is the end all be all of rankings or accuse people of "spreading false information" because their opinion of a class's strength doesn't match your own.
PS: Since you keep repeatedly using it as some kind of justification,being able to beat someone at a duel just means your good at dueling, doesn't make you an expert on PvP class rankings
Man, I want to awesome this TWICE! Lol
Who are the good players outright disputing it - not the ones who make additions?<Noricum>
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