"DPS is through the roof" thread part 2

vesselwiththepestle · November 2019

ApostateHobo wrote: »

Even using a build pretty similar (often just using different sets) to someone that pulls dps in the 60-100k range, I still fall into the 10-40k range no matter how much I try to raise it. Part of this problem with the gap between average and top tier players I think is animation canceling because it just doesn't work for me, or a lot of other players.

Yes, you actually have to learn to do it and it works different for the different types of weapons. If you want some rotations to really work as good, you need to understand how light attack weaving works with each individual skill and you need to test, when there is the best moment in the animation, to start the next attack. For example Uppercut, there is a point in the animation where the sword is high above the head. You can THEN start a light attack and next skill - but if you don't, the animation completes and you lose time, resulting finally in less skills per minute than some other player.

Elemental Weapon from Psijic order is a good skill to practice basic weaving.

Also it needs basic dexterity to be physically able to let the mouse button go and instantly hit a skill button after, and then keep the rhythm while respecting those skills which "fall out of rhythm".

In my opinion there definitely are differences in individual human abilities to "light attack weave", practice and increasing your knowledge on the game can bring you only to your own personal skill cap. Also some classes and rotations might be more to your advantage than others - for example I am doing more DPS on my Stamina DK main (75k) than on Stamina Sorcerer (72k) or Stamina Necromancer (71k), although according to meta knowledge I should do most dps on my Necro...

Also there are different techniques how to light attack weave:
- the button smasher who throws in the skill
- the player who put light attacks on his mouse wheel
- the player who makes a single light attack + skill use in a steady rhythm
It seems those different techniques work differently well for different players. For example, I can't hit the light attack mouse button repeatedly fast AND weave in the skills in between. It doesn't work for me. So I play in a steady rhythm - light attack - skill - break - light attack - skill - break. da-da- --- da-da- --- da-da- --- and so on.

ApostateHobo wrote: »

The endgame community will never grow if it's members can't be more accepting or understanding. Like below where a guild kicks you if you don't do 70k dps. Stuff like that is exactly why so many average players see endgame players as toxic and elitist.

The guild I am in offers open vet raids for players without dps requirements and in most of our vet trial groups at least half of the players don't hit 70k dps. We clear vss, vcr, vmol etc. nevertheless. Also, endgame raiding in our guild is growing, we have started several new open and closed vet trial groups within the last year. Maybe that's because our guild is beginner-friendly and we welcome players to join our ranks in trial groups. Sure, we don't compete for No 1 spots on leaderboards, but at least we don't have to complain about losing players or having trouble to find players for vet trial raiding.

ApostateHobo · November 2019

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

ApostateHobo wrote: »

Even using a build pretty similar (often just using different sets) to someone that pulls dps in the 60-100k range, I still fall into the 10-40k range no matter how much I try to raise it. Part of this problem with the gap between average and top tier players I think is animation canceling because it just doesn't work for me, or a lot of other players.

Yes, you actually have to learn to do it and it works different for the different types of weapons. If you want some rotations to really work as good, you need to understand how light attack weaving works with each individual skill and you need to test, when there is the best moment in the animation, to start the next attack. For example Uppercut, there is a point in the animation where the sword is high above the head. You can THEN start a light attack and next skill - but if you don't, the animation completes and you lose time, resulting finally in less skills per minute than some other player.

Elemental Weapon from Psijic order is a good skill to practice basic weaving.

Also it needs basic dexterity to be physically able to let the mouse button go and instantly hit a skill button after, and then keep the rhythm while respecting those skills which "fall out of rhythm".

In my opinion there definitely are differences in individual human abilities to "light attack weave", practice and increasing your knowledge on the game can bring you only to your own personal skill cap. Also some classes and rotations might be more to your advantage than others - for example I am doing more DPS on my Stamina DK main (75k) than on Stamina Sorcerer (72k) or Stamina Necromancer (71k), although according to meta knowledge I should do most dps on my Necro...

Also there are different techniques how to light attack weave:
- the button smasher who throws in the skill
- the player who put light attacks on his mouse wheel
- the player who makes a single light attack + skill use in a steady rhythm
It seems those different techniques work differently well for different players. For example, I can't hit the light attack mouse button repeatedly fast AND weave in the skills in between. It doesn't work for me. So I play in a steady rhythm - light attack - skill - break - light attack - skill - break. da-da- --- da-da- --- da-da- --- and so on.

Something tells me you didn't read the part where I said animation cancelling does not work for me aside from bar swapping which often locks up my bars to where I can't attack or use skills. I can weave light attacks between skills no problem, unless the game decides my light attack won't go off. Also I'm on console not pc no mouse to let go of here. I've watched a lot of people parsing on dummies, I know HOW they do it, but the game just doesn't behave well enough for me to be able to perform similarly. Not sure why since I have great internet and I'm not in the middle of nowhere, but it just doesn't. All the people I've seen are also on pc, so there might be some kind of input delay difference between the two or ps4 just has crap performance in general.

I know you're trying to help, but it's kinda lame when people don't pay attention to what you wrote and treat you like you don't know anything. I'm not some noob player that just started. I've been playing the game for a little over 2 years, max cp, gone through vma, and I can solo every normal dungeon that doesn't require others for a group mechanic no problem. I just can't manage to hit super high numbers on target dummies. Trust me I've tried. Practiced many times on the iron atro recently, and the highest I managed was 33k on my petsorc. Might be able to hit higher numbers on some of my other characters, but who knows.

My whole point is though that just because you and others can reach these numbers, doesn't mean everyone else can. Which really sucks for the people that would like to get into endgame or vet content, but can't because the bar is set so high. It's awesome that your particular guild is welcoming of beginners and others that don't pull top tier damage, but it seems guilds like that are few and far between. Kinda makes me want to start a guild for more casual/average players to do trials and vet dungeons, but I tend to play at pretty bizarre hours so I don't think that'd go very well lol

RogueShark · November 2019

Kalante wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Kalante wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Kalante wrote: »

I feel like the combat team is just balancing around organized teams rather than the entire player base as a whole. I heard some elitist say that the new 23m trial dummy is the new gold standard for parses, yea ok but not everyone is going to have those buffs that the trial dummy provides running 24/7 during a trial it's just unrealistic and the ones that can are just a handful of guilds.

You've entirely missed the point why iron atro is the gold standard. It is not about hitting the numbers you hit on dummy in a dungeon/trial. But about the dummy providing everyone with the exact same playing field. Everyone on the dummy has all the buffs. So everyone can do their absolute best on it. And then you can compare between those absolute best results without questions about fracture/breach, ele drain, class buffs and so on interfering with your tests.

Then go to a real trial and wonder why their dps is not anywhere near their target dummy dps. DPS'ing the dummy with all the buffs in the world is not the same as a real fight with random players. How does that help the player base? Not everyone is going to be hitting the numbers that they are hitting on the 23m trial dummy. That's just a handful of guilds.

You're fixating on DPS.

NONE OF US ARE SAYING THAT THE IRON ATRO IS THE GOLD STANDARD BECAUSE IT SHOWS YOUR TRUE DPS

Let's repeat that again.

NONE OF US ARE SAYING THAT THE IRON ATRO IS THE GOLD STANDARD BECAUSE IT SHOWS YOUR TRUE DPS

We are saying that the iron atro is the gold standard because it, well, standardizes parses across classes. With this, you can accurate compare yourself to the higher-end players and see exactly what's going wrong, all without worrying about whether it's due to a difference in buff or debuff uptimes.

I can take someone's iron atro parse and point out that their DoTs are dropping off too often, or that they need to work on their LA weaving, or that they need to maintain their source of Minor Force better. It eliminates the possibility that they did not have Major Fracture or other debuffs or buffs. While you could do this with 3m or 6m dummy parses, it is far easier to discern why people are not hitting as high on an iron atro.

Again you can sh*t on the dummy all day you want. You can see what a class is capable off easier but at the same time our sight has shifted to another direction. Not everyone is going to have those buffs running all the time. Not everyone is going to be that organized. The 3m dummy parse at least showed you how good a player was good at keeping buffs/debuffs while sustaining on their own. It showed if a class was capable on their own. That was the main drive of what made eso fun it was to see what you yourself could do if you don't have the resources available to you and then knowing that your class gets better when you group up. What do we get now? it's just nerf nerf nerf, this class and that class does too good on a the atro dps nerf it on top break some skills in the game to pathetic levels while also hurting sustain. You are standardizing everyone and turning this into a boring $ss game.

How is some classes needing to bug friends to apply major fracture for them more "fun" than having buffs applied via the dummy? Why is testing how well someone can keep up breach/fracture on a dummy vital when they will never have to do that in a real raiding environment because they'll have a tank?

You complain iron atro gives buffs people may not always have up in a trial then in the next post praise 3mil/6mil for showing how well dps can upkeep buffs they will never slot for an actual trial.

Bladerunner1 · November 2019

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

There does seem to be something going on more than weaving and light attack timing. I watched someone running around a big room in a public dungeon, gathering up all the enemies in the room... perhaps 25 or 30 foes. He then dropped ONE attack, Liquid Lightning or Lightning Flood, I'm not sure which. That ONE attack destroyed ALL the enemies instantly. This is not the only time I've seen this, either.

That's not the result of weaving or light attacks or anything like that.... Something else is providing that result.

This game has tons of choices you have to make about everything, and each of them has an impact on damage. Individually they may not be huge, but the list of things that effect DPS is massive, it all can theoretically add up to more than an order of magnitude of damage if you jump from all the worst options to all the best options for any given scenario.

Trait selection of all the equipment,
Glyph selection of all the equipment,
Armor weight,
Weapon choice,
Skill choices,
Using both weapon bars or not,
Mundus stone,
Food,
Penetration,
Crit rating,
Choose stamina/ weapon damage stacking or magic/ spell damage stacking or not,
Use stat and weapon/ spell damage / crit damage multipliers or not,
Use damage-dealt multipliers or not,
Use armor debuffs against enemies or not,
Choices for stat regen - some options offer more efficiency than others where you sacrifice less damage for the given amount of regen - or forget about this entirely if you're just killing overland mobs
Race - they're not all equal for a given damage type
Class - they're not all equal, some offer stronger solo buffs, some work out better in groups, one in particular is just stupidly OP for multiple scenarios
DOT or Direct Damage - some builds work better for one damage type or the other.
Poisons on weapons or not
Potions

And then we get into the stuff you were asking about in the OP's first comment in the thread:
Distribution of champion points.
Gold gear vs white gear.
Choosing sets that offer damage stats or not

If someone considered all those things when they wanted to kill overland mobs or public dungeon mobs, they could come up with a scenario that can knock down a pile of them in one fell swoop while wearing all green mismatched gear and without potions and poisons if they choose all the rest of the best options for that particular thing they're doing.

Kolzki · November 2019

One of the main causes I see for light attack weaves not firing is a tendency to try to do it too fast. It can be helpful to slow down the rotation and try not to rush it. After some practice it’s normally possible to then pick up the speed a little to the point that things work.

Different skill do weave differently. With practise it becomes muscle memory. A few channeled skills are very different from other skills, like wrecking blow or snipe. It’s best to know that before practising, but again it’s just about getting the muscle memory and not over thinking it.

If weaving really doesn’t work then there are also a few heavy attack builds (particularly using lightning staves) that rely less on light attack weaving and are capable of hitting good (if not absolute end game) dps.

In the end the answer is generally practise and trying to understand why thing aren’t working to be able to fix the problems. And then more practise.

Vahrokh · November 2019

Kolzki wrote: »

One of the main causes I see for light attack weaves not firing is a tendency to try to do it too fast. It can be helpful to slow down the rotation and try not to rush it. After some practice it’s normally possible to then pick up the speed a little to the point that things work.

Different skill do weave differently. With practise it becomes muscle memory. A few channeled skills are very different from other skills, like wrecking blow or snipe. It’s best to know that before practising, but again it’s just about getting the muscle memory and not over thinking it.

If weaving really doesn’t work then there are also a few heavy attack builds (particularly using lightning staves) that rely less on light attack weaving and are capable of hitting good (if not absolute end game) dps.

In the end the answer is generally practise and trying to understand why thing aren’t working to be able to fix the problems. And then more practise.

One of the biggest complaints comes exactly from the fact that it's now 6 months that those heavy attack builds are not even vaguely competitive any more. I used to play heavy attack, lightning damage pet magsorc but now it does 10k+ less DPS than fire. Most of that is because fire spec involves zillions of light attacks, which nowaday can represent 12-20k of the total DPS.

vesselwiththepestle · November 2019

ApostateHobo wrote: »

My whole point is though that just because you and others can reach these numbers, doesn't mean everyone else can.

That's exactly what I wrote, different individual human abilities and so on

. It could be performance, but it is my understanding that PS4 players can reach high dps numbers, too.

IonicKai · November 2019

ApostateHobo wrote: »

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

ApostateHobo wrote: »

Even using a build pretty similar (often just using different sets) to someone that pulls dps in the 60-100k range, I still fall into the 10-40k range no matter how much I try to raise it. Part of this problem with the gap between average and top tier players I think is animation canceling because it just doesn't work for me, or a lot of other players.

Yes, you actually have to learn to do it and it works different for the different types of weapons. If you want some rotations to really work as good, you need to understand how light attack weaving works with each individual skill and you need to test, when there is the best moment in the animation, to start the next attack. For example Uppercut, there is a point in the animation where the sword is high above the head. You can THEN start a light attack and next skill - but if you don't, the animation completes and you lose time, resulting finally in less skills per minute than some other player.

Elemental Weapon from Psijic order is a good skill to practice basic weaving.

Also it needs basic dexterity to be physically able to let the mouse button go and instantly hit a skill button after, and then keep the rhythm while respecting those skills which "fall out of rhythm".

In my opinion there definitely are differences in individual human abilities to "light attack weave", practice and increasing your knowledge on the game can bring you only to your own personal skill cap. Also some classes and rotations might be more to your advantage than others - for example I am doing more DPS on my Stamina DK main (75k) than on Stamina Sorcerer (72k) or Stamina Necromancer (71k), although according to meta knowledge I should do most dps on my Necro...

Also there are different techniques how to light attack weave:
- the button smasher who throws in the skill
- the player who put light attacks on his mouse wheel
- the player who makes a single light attack + skill use in a steady rhythm
It seems those different techniques work differently well for different players. For example, I can't hit the light attack mouse button repeatedly fast AND weave in the skills in between. It doesn't work for me. So I play in a steady rhythm - light attack - skill - break - light attack - skill - break. da-da- --- da-da- --- da-da- --- and so on.

Something tells me you didn't read the part where I said animation cancelling does not work for me aside from bar swapping which often locks up my bars to where I can't attack or use skills. I can weave light attacks between skills no problem, unless the game decides my light attack won't go off. Also I'm on console not pc no mouse to let go of here. I've watched a lot of people parsing on dummies, I know HOW they do it, but the game just doesn't behave well enough for me to be able to perform similarly. Not sure why since I have great internet and I'm not in the middle of nowhere, but it just doesn't. All the people I've seen are also on pc, so there might be some kind of input delay difference between the two or ps4 just has crap performance in general.

I know you're trying to help, but it's kinda lame when people don't pay attention to what you wrote and treat you like you don't know anything. I'm not some noob player that just started. I've been playing the game for a little over 2 years, max cp, gone through vma, and I can solo every normal dungeon that doesn't require others for a group mechanic no problem. I just can't manage to hit super high numbers on target dummies. Trust me I've tried. Practiced many times on the iron atro recently, and the highest I managed was 33k on my petsorc. Might be able to hit higher numbers on some of my other characters, but who knows.

My whole point is though that just because you and others can reach these numbers, doesn't mean everyone else can. Which really sucks for the people that would like to get into endgame or vet content, but can't because the bar is set so high. It's awesome that your particular guild is welcoming of beginners and others that don't pull top tier damage, but it seems guilds like that are few and far between. Kinda makes me want to start a guild for more casual/average players to do trials and vet dungeons, but I tend to play at pretty bizarre hours so I don't think that'd go very well lol

I feel your pain about attack weaving. I'm on Xbox and I was there once. Best advice I can give is to slow it down and deliberately wait. For example just start really slow and deliberately with skill (wait) light attack (wait). I would do this with just the spammable to get the hang of it. When I say wait I mean let the animation finish then light attack then cast the skill. Then start slowly trying to go faster until you hit the point where the light attack isn't going out. Dial it back until you get the hang of the balance. A great skill for practice with this is elemental weapon as you can see at what point during the animation you can start your LA.

As for bar swap cancels there are a lot of things that can go wrong so my suggestion is to play with ability cast and bar swaps whenever you are waiting around for something. This is an easy way to tell what abilities get hung up during what part of there animations. Practice the timing because again here a big mistake people make is trying to go too fast. It sounds counter intuitive since the whole point is to go fast but there is a such thing as being locked by the global cool down.

As for my earlier comments again it's a problem of the game itself. We on console are exceptionally at the mercy of a system that doesn't teach us because it's much harder to get the feedback of how we are doing since we don't have add-ons. There are plenty of groups that take people hitting in the 40-60 k range on the iron attro that do vet dungeons and trials but much lower than that really becomes and issue of content potentially not being completable. The vet content is designed to be difficult and it will be out of reach for some players no matter how hard they try. This is ok for a game but seems cruel given the average DPS of most players.

DPS nerfs affect players trying to rise up the most and are by far the most frustrating things about ZOS. They keep trying to knee cap the top 1% which can steam roll content but it truly cripples those on the rise not the top of the top. It's been my biggest complaint of this game since getting serious since ZOS keeps missing the mark of bringing down the ceiling.

Vahrokh · November 2019

IonicKai wrote: »

DPS nerfs affect players trying to rise up the most and are by far the most frustrating things about ZOS. They keep trying to knee cap the top 1% which can steam roll content but it truly cripples those on the rise not the top of the top. It's been my biggest complaint of this game since getting serious since ZOS keeps missing the mark of bringing down the ceiling.

Exactly what I stated so many times, not just in this thread.
A dude flashing his 100k on Youtube gets nerfed to 85k?
A 15k DPS loss, but... who cares! He will still steamroll the whole content, he will still skip every and each game mechanic, he will still post his guild downing #eliteboss333 before it ends its "first phase" (hm vMOL comes to mind).

A new player or a guy who poured in so much effort and finally achieved 35k DPS, in the same patch gets nerfed to 25k.
Less of a loss than the 100k guy, but now his progress has just been devastated, he's back to the minor league.
He won't even have 50k fans on a Youtube channel he never opened, to side for and support him. He'll just be "just another nameless sucker who wasted all his money to gold a set" and now all of this has been made useless. And will be again in 3 months. And again in 6 months. And so on.

DaNnYtHePcFrEaK · November 2019

SirDopey wrote: »

DaNnYtHePcFrEaK wrote: »

http://imgur.com/gallery/942t7QW

lol what is eye scream, is that the buff name for the food?

Yeah parse food for magicka toons

Chaos2088 · November 2019

DaNnYtHePcFrEaK · November 2019

TriangularChicken wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Well, some people caught one of those uber Youtube elites cheating a DPS mannequin with a block cast macro.
This is what happens when you have a broken gameplay engine and promote glitches to game features.

@Vahrokh
dude there is a discord (TRE) where ppl upload pictures of 80k+ parses every day. they have to be cheating (bash macro) for sure. and on top of that i think they are animation canceling as well. its mostly EU guys tho which makes me believe that they are cheating more over there..looks like EU > NA to me

Are you special? I have an 82k average on my necro with 0 bashes lol

SirDopey · November 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

IonicKai wrote: »

DPS nerfs affect players trying to rise up the most and are by far the most frustrating things about ZOS. They keep trying to knee cap the top 1% which can steam roll content but it truly cripples those on the rise not the top of the top. It's been my biggest complaint of this game since getting serious since ZOS keeps missing the mark of bringing down the ceiling.

Exactly what I stated so many times, not just in this thread.
A dude flashing his 100k on Youtube gets nerfed to 85k?
A 15k DPS loss, but... who cares! He will still steamroll the whole content, he will still skip every and each game mechanic, he will still post his guild downing #eliteboss333 before it ends its "first phase" (hm vMOL comes to mind).

A new player or a guy who poured in so much effort and finally achieved 35k DPS, in the same patch gets nerfed to 25k.
Less of a loss than the 100k guy, but now his progress has just been devastated, he's back to the minor league.
He won't even have 50k fans on a Youtube channel he never opened, to side for and support him. He'll just be "just another nameless sucker who wasted all his money to gold a set" and now all of this has been made useless. And will be again in 3 months. And again in 6 months. And so on.

AGREEEEEE.

Clearly blanket nerfs are not the solution. We need to look at mechanics that slow the top end of town without affecting the average player at all.

This can be done through multiple means. Limiting the number of light attacks. Resource drains tied to DPS. Increased mitigation when DPS passes a certain threshold.

pieratsos · November 2019

FierceSam wrote: »

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Lady_Linux wrote: »

the bottom line is people with high dps think its them. The reality is it isn't them, it's the gear, cp, and pots and what you bring to the table is really not nearly so much as you think it is.

these epeen posts are funny to me.

Gear, pots and CP definitely contribute but the difference between being executed in the right and wrong hands is massive. Player skill impacts performance more than sets.

A good player can do much better with non-meta gear and trash pots than a bad player with BiS gear and pots.

Totally true, but what this thread is suggesting is that a large chunk of DPS is not down to player ability. Thus rating a player on DPS is not an accurate reflection of their ability or whether they are ‘good’.

I would much rather take a low DPS player who was good through vSCP than a higher DPS player who was incompetent. The vast majority of content can be done with relatively low DPS.

Actually no that's not what this thread suggests at all. This thread suggests that gear plays a massive role in ur DPS. Player skill was never tested.

Its just that half of the people who read the thread chose to interpret it this way to feel better with theirselves because they suck

pieratsos · November 2019

MotokoHutt wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

MotokoHutt wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

MotokoHutt wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

NaomiHutt wrote: »

I call BS on this thread.

But hey that's just my opinion.

Change my mind, show a video of you doing this, I don't mean a stream of your screen, I mean a video of you playing in front of your screen pulling off these stats.

Than I will be impressed.

You can literally go on Twitch and find end-game PvE DPS playing and hitting those high numbers. Or go to esologs and find public logs from those same high-end PvE players.

I don't think you get what she is saying mate she doesn't want some stream or a YouTube video with a face cam amd screen cap.

She wants footage of you... Hands, pc screan and all. Showing off what programs you have up, while ideally with like a regular £5 keyboard and mouse, Playing the game showing you able to pull the numbers proposed.

That's easily doable. If it means squashing rumors and misinformation.

Go ahead, and don't scrimp, I am curious myself now, to see if you can do it. I wanna see you on a bargain bin keyboard and mouse, with no addons, camera showing yourself, hands screen and all, all programs shut down in the background pulling 50k dps on a 3mil dummy.

Make it happen

See, I don't see the whole point of this.

1. A "bargain bin" keyboard and mouse doesn't make things different. Using Cherry MX keys is no different for your rotation than using rubber dome keys.
2. No add-ons don't make sense either. Add-ons don't do anything for your rotation; they aren't macros. Do they make learning your rotation easier? Sure, but they don't make the rotation easier itself.
3. A 3m dummy shows literally nothing about DPS. There's a reason why 21m dummies are the "gold standard".

You have an agenda, and I doubt that when I do release this video people like you would be convinced. You'd probably just say "oh, he's just mimicking what going on screen" or "oh, these were recorded separately".

Lol biggest Chicken out 2019 xD

Well if it's the mouse, the keyboard and the add-ons why don't you prove it instead?

Heatnix90 · November 2019

ApostateHobo wrote: »

My whole point is though that just because you and others can reach these numbers, doesn't mean everyone else can.

I don't see a problem with this. Not everyone will be able to get TTT/IR/GH/GS and that's perfectly normal.

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

tl;dr Choices have consequences on your performance

Gee who would have guessed.
This is the biggest thing that people always miss, that how you build your character and how you play it determines how it performs. Sure, you can be an Altmer stamcro running Bow/Staff, no one's stopping you; however, you sure as hell aren't going to pull good numbers that way. People like the OP who make these threads complaining about DPS and stuff are exactly the people I just describe, they want to pull the same results as high-end players running meta comps without putting in the effort and run a meta comp themselves.

pieratsos wrote: »

Well if it's the mouse, the keyboard and the add-ons why don't you prove it instead?

Because he knows TAG is right and he's wrong. He just chose to die on this specific hill.

Kolzki · November 2019

pieratsos wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Lady_Linux wrote: »

the bottom line is people with high dps think its them. The reality is it isn't them, it's the gear, cp, and pots and what you bring to the table is really not nearly so much as you think it is.

these epeen posts are funny to me.

Gear, pots and CP definitely contribute but the difference between being executed in the right and wrong hands is massive. Player skill impacts performance more than sets.

A good player can do much better with non-meta gear and trash pots than a bad player with BiS gear and pots.

Totally true, but what this thread is suggesting is that a large chunk of DPS is not down to player ability. Thus rating a player on DPS is not an accurate reflection of their ability or whether they are ‘good’.

I would much rather take a low DPS player who was good through vSCP than a higher DPS player who was incompetent. The vast majority of content can be done with relatively low DPS.

Actually no that's not what this thread suggests at all. This thread suggests that gear plays a massive role in ur DPS. Player skill was never tested.

Its just that half of the people who read the thread chose to interpret it this way to feel better with theirselves because they suck

I think we saw player skill tested when we saw a 25k parse on a 3 mil dummy while wearing clothes that could be stolen from an npc’s wardrobe. I almost wish that the op had settled in for the long haul to see what the “build” could do on the 21mil dummy. Almost.

Morgha_Kul · November 2019

pieratsos wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Lady_Linux wrote: »

the bottom line is people with high dps think its them. The reality is it isn't them, it's the gear, cp, and pots and what you bring to the table is really not nearly so much as you think it is.

these epeen posts are funny to me.

Gear, pots and CP definitely contribute but the difference between being executed in the right and wrong hands is massive. Player skill impacts performance more than sets.

A good player can do much better with non-meta gear and trash pots than a bad player with BiS gear and pots.

Totally true, but what this thread is suggesting is that a large chunk of DPS is not down to player ability. Thus rating a player on DPS is not an accurate reflection of their ability or whether they are ‘good’.

I would much rather take a low DPS player who was good through vSCP than a higher DPS player who was incompetent. The vast majority of content can be done with relatively low DPS.

Actually no that's not what this thread suggests at all. This thread suggests that gear plays a massive role in ur DPS. Player skill was never tested.

Its just that half of the people who read the thread chose to interpret it this way to feel better with theirselves because they suck

Actually, player skill is part of what is being tested. When we eliminate the effect of gear AND eliminate the effect of CP, all that's left is player skill. If a player can zero his CP and use generic white gear and STILL get massive dps, then that indicates it's his (or her) SKILL that's producing the dps.

However, we've not really seen that being entirely the case. Clearly, skill is a significant factor too, I'm just trying to determine how much of a factor each element is.

frozzzen101 · November 2019

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Actually, player skill is part of what is being tested. When we eliminate the effect of gear AND eliminate the effect of CP, all that's left is player skill. If a player can zero his CP and use generic white gear and STILL get massive dps, then that indicates it's his (or her) SKILL that's producing the dps.

However, we've not really seen that being entirely the case. Clearly, skill is a significant factor too, I'm just trying to determine how much of a factor each element is.

Well, your method of eliminating gear's impact on dps is faulty then.

Much like with many things in life, there are minimum requirements for gear in order for your to be considered damage dealer. Like in our social interactions in real life, there is minimum requirements for clothing in order for you to be recognized as civilized person. Same is minimum requirement in our fictional game in order for you to be considered dd. Your fabled white gear is equivalent of wearing bloody, tattered feces stained rags around your private parts, something you really cannot recognize as minimum requirement for being even acceptable. No one is forcing your to wear Versace branded clothes and flashing your Rolex (games equivalent of perfected Relequen and perfected Lokestiiz) in social interactions, but people are expecting you to wear normal average clothing. If you want to test that hypothesis try going to some social outing with above mentioned rags. You will see how swiftly security will throw you in back alley, faster than dungeon group would kick you from their instance.

Point? There is minimum requirements for you to be considered damage dealer in group content. If you wear Ebon and Plague Doctor, two pretty decent sets all things considered, are you recognized as damage dealer? No, you'd be a tank. If you wear Shacklebreaker, Thunderbug and Agility, I could see this as sort of gimicky pvp setup, but damage dealer you are not. And your entire testing can be thrown in garbage bin much like that raged hobo crashing in private party (DLC dungeon). I don't care if you call that elitist or something, but there absolutely are some minimum requirements in order for people to play content that isn't wipe proof, and if you cannot adhere to those standards, you aren't a damage dealer and shouldn't queue as one. If you can't have two crafted sets that are relevant for dealing damage and two assorted monster set pieces then rags it is.
You'd get New Moon Acolyte/Julianos/Mechanical Acuity with golden weapons, blue jewelry and purple everything else for 110 - 140k gold. Obviously since they are crafted you get all perfect traits/weigh immediately. By doing couple normal or veteran non dlc pledges, you can have random monster set head, and by opening couple undaunted chests you can get shoulder. They don't even have to match. That would be my personal minimum requirement for dd in terms of gear. We don't have that codified, but I think this is decent starting point.

witchdoctor · November 2019

frozzzen101 wrote: »

Well, your method of eliminating gear's impact on dps is faulty then.

[Words]

Holy hell.

Before you wrote all that, did you honestly think anyone was proposing wearing crap white gear and claiming to be off to join for group content?

From the OP:

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Since the original thread got locked due to outdated information, I'm starting a new one. Particularly because I was intrigued by what Morgha_Kul was wondering:

The entire purpose of this thread was an academic exercise. You know, where you identify variables and try to account for their impact?

I say 'was' because the OP was leading an intersting discussion until the conspiracy theorists showed up demanding Asian stand on one foot using a Walmart PC for his next video.

frozzzen101 · November 2019

witchdoctor wrote: »

Before you wrote all that, did you honestly think anyone was proposing wearing crap white gear and claiming to be off to join for group content?

It has nothing to do with that. OP was talking about measuring impact of gear on dps and:

Next, tell us what your dps is with GENERIC gear. No sets, nothing green, blue, purple or better... just plain white gear.

Like I said, that's faulty comparison, and if you want to compare impact of gear such as Siroria or Mother's sorrow, compare it vs minimum requirement setup that I suggested in post above and not "No sets, nothing green, blue, purple or better... just plain white gear". Then you can see how much impact gear has, that is, optimized setup compared to minimum requirement setup. Post above is merely allegory on why there is such thing as minimum requirements gear to be considered as damage dealer. For me, I wrote what that setup is. We don't have it mentioned anywhere explicitly and I don't really know what is is, but 2 crafted sets + 2 random monster set pieces seems like good starting point. I might be totally off however.

witchdoctor · November 2019

frozzzen101 wrote: »

I might be totally off however.

No offence, but yes. This is spot on.

The thread was an academic exercise. Whether you find it faulty or not, is irrelevant as no one was proposing wearing 'feces-covered garb to a Versace ball.'

The point was to eliminate variables and try to isolate OUT CP and gear.

pieratsos · November 2019

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Lady_Linux wrote: »

the bottom line is people with high dps think its them. The reality is it isn't them, it's the gear, cp, and pots and what you bring to the table is really not nearly so much as you think it is.

these epeen posts are funny to me.

Gear, pots and CP definitely contribute but the difference between being executed in the right and wrong hands is massive. Player skill impacts performance more than sets.

A good player can do much better with non-meta gear and trash pots than a bad player with BiS gear and pots.

Totally true, but what this thread is suggesting is that a large chunk of DPS is not down to player ability. Thus rating a player on DPS is not an accurate reflection of their ability or whether they are ‘good’.

I would much rather take a low DPS player who was good through vSCP than a higher DPS player who was incompetent. The vast majority of content can be done with relatively low DPS.

Actually no that's not what this thread suggests at all. This thread suggests that gear plays a massive role in ur DPS. Player skill was never tested.

Its just that half of the people who read the thread chose to interpret it this way to feel better with theirselves because they suck

Actually, player skill is part of what is being tested. When we eliminate the effect of gear AND eliminate the effect of CP, all that's left is player skill. If a player can zero his CP and use generic white gear and STILL get massive dps, then that indicates it's his (or her) SKILL that's producing the dps.

However, we've not really seen that being entirely the case. Clearly, skill is a significant factor too, I'm just trying to determine how much of a factor each element is.

That's not how u test player skill. You are throwing the word massive but it has no context. You don't really have anything to compare it to.

You test player skill in a similar way you test gear and cp. You keep CP and gear exactly the same to eliminate them from ur tests and then start messing up with ur rotations to see how ur ability to perform a rotation is going to affect ur overall DPS.

Meaning that you make a test with a perfect rotation to have an idea of ur maximum DPS and then make tests by losing weaves, recast dots/buffs late or early etc to simulate a "bad" player and see the difference. Then you also have to take into account that the difference is most likely going to be even bigger in a real combat situation in which players will also have to follow mechanics.

The op literally eliminated the player skill factor from his tests. That was the whole point of monitoring his weaves to be sure that his ability to perform a rotation was not actually affecting his DPS.

Morgha_Kul · November 2019

pieratsos wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Lady_Linux wrote: »

the bottom line is people with high dps think its them. The reality is it isn't them, it's the gear, cp, and pots and what you bring to the table is really not nearly so much as you think it is.

these epeen posts are funny to me.

Gear, pots and CP definitely contribute but the difference between being executed in the right and wrong hands is massive. Player skill impacts performance more than sets.

A good player can do much better with non-meta gear and trash pots than a bad player with BiS gear and pots.

Totally true, but what this thread is suggesting is that a large chunk of DPS is not down to player ability. Thus rating a player on DPS is not an accurate reflection of their ability or whether they are ‘good’.

I would much rather take a low DPS player who was good through vSCP than a higher DPS player who was incompetent. The vast majority of content can be done with relatively low DPS.

Actually no that's not what this thread suggests at all. This thread suggests that gear plays a massive role in ur DPS. Player skill was never tested.

Its just that half of the people who read the thread chose to interpret it this way to feel better with theirselves because they suck

Actually, player skill is part of what is being tested. When we eliminate the effect of gear AND eliminate the effect of CP, all that's left is player skill. If a player can zero his CP and use generic white gear and STILL get massive dps, then that indicates it's his (or her) SKILL that's producing the dps.

However, we've not really seen that being entirely the case. Clearly, skill is a significant factor too, I'm just trying to determine how much of a factor each element is.

That's not how u test player skill. You are throwing the word massive but it has no context. You don't really have anything to compare it to.

You test player skill in a similar way you test gear and cp. You keep CP and gear exactly the same to eliminate them from ur tests and then start messing up with ur rotations to see how ur ability to perform a rotation is going to affect ur overall DPS.

Meaning that you make a test with a perfect rotation to have an idea of ur maximum DPS and then make tests by losing weaves, recast dots/buffs late or early etc to simulate a "bad" player and see the difference. Then you also have to take into account that the difference is most likely going to be even bigger in a real combat situation in which players will also have to follow mechanics.

The op literally eliminated the player skill factor from his tests. That was the whole point of monitoring his weaves to be sure that his ability to perform a rotation was not actually affecting his DPS.

By zeroing CP, we eliminate the effect of CP on damage output. By using the most basic gear possible, we eliminate the effect of having top end set gear. That leaves other sources of damage to affect DPS measures. Granted, there might be other effects than just skill (such as buff and debuff powers), but in general terms, we're narrowing the variables.

frozzzen101 · November 2019

witchdoctor wrote: »

frozzzen101 wrote: »

I might be totally off however.

No offence, but yes. This is spot on.

The thread was an academic exercise. Whether you find it faulty or not, is irrelevant as no one was proposing wearing 'feces-covered garb to a Versace ball.'

The point was to eliminate variables and try to isolate OUT CP and gear.

No offense taken, but OP really did compare it.

First, tell us what kind of dps you're getting as you are, kitted out normally.
Next, tell us what your dps is with GENERIC gear. No sets, nothing green, blue, purple or better... just plain white gear.

And you cannot isolate gear. You cannot even use weapon skill lines without weapon.

What we can do is see how much having bis gear affects dps compared to easily attainable setup. Because that's what we are talking about in the end. He has better dps than me because he has perfected siroria blablabla. Majority of players interested in actually comparing how much dps is lost in terms of difference in gear can easily get setup that I mentioned as good starting point.

witchdoctor · November 2019

frozzzen101 wrote: »

And you cannot isolate gear. You cannot even use weapon skill lines without weapon.

Yes, you can; and you are right, you cannot.

That was the goal.

7 white, no-set gear on body. Jewels might be pointless. White, no-set weapons.

The point was to objectively try to isolate out the impact of gear.

You cannot do that using your (or anyone's) subjective opinion on the minimum gear required for a DPS.

In the same way no CP assigned was to objectively eliminate CP.

The OP leapt on an interesting question from a now-closed thread. Nothing more, nothing less.

EDIT to add: the data then claimed was Player A, normally wearing X, Y, and Z, saw a difference of D in their parse. Hence, the desire for an objective starting point.

Kolzki · November 2019

Perhaps an alternative test could be to set a limit of say 20k gold to spend it on stuff from guild stores to compare to a meta setup. In non-optimal trait you can buy pieces of some very nice sets for 500g each.

ruengdet2515 · November 2019

Someone can show me DPS in vtrial/vdun when you always have 500-700ping.

frozzzen101 · November 2019

witchdoctor wrote: »

The thread was an academic exercise. Whether you find it faulty or not, is irrelevant as no one was proposing wearing 'feces-covered garb to a Versace ball.'

The point was to eliminate variables and try to isolate OUT CP and gear.

Why stopping on white gear? Why not level 1 white gear? White tier CP 160 weapon still gives you ~1100 weapon and spell damage. That's more than Siroria. Why using gear at all? It affects your damage via passives you can still wear 5 light and get 4884 penetration. That's impact of gear and for that reason it shouldn't be used. Because it is impact on gear on your damage. Gear also totally allows you to use active and passive skills of this specific weapon you are wearing. IT IS IMPACT. Objectively try to isolate out the impact of gear? smh
So no, you aren't trying to eliminate impact of gear, you are just setting some arbitrary standards that no one is using and is utterly worthless.

It's worthless in the same way like claiming that impact in player skill should be measured between best player in ESO and person who never even played ESO, or even better never even seen PC so that previous knowledge with it can be used in order to get better results, just to pad importance of skill as defining factor. It doesn't work that way and anyone suggesting it would be silly.

It's worthless in the same way like claiming that you should remove CP in order to test your build and remove CP from equation without considering that upon hitting lvl 50 person get 10 CP instant and 4.000.000 enlightenment and will most likely hit 160 in a weeks time. Nobody plays like this, and for those that aren't in CP yet, there's battle scaling.

It is worthless exercise. You will learn nothing. Considering you are comparing such things, you might come to conclusion that gear is most important for dps because you are using setup that has 50 weapon damage, 0 critical chance, 0 critical damage and 5000 stamina. Player skill can only improve damage in multiplicative manner, it cannot affect crap base damage.
But when you move from realm of academic exercise into realm of damage dealing, you will see that this multiplicative factor of player skill matters the most. Once you get past that minimum base stats to be considered damage dealer, player skill will matter most.

Just curious to know what kind of numbers we will see. It might help us determine where the damage is coming from. Is it the gear? Is it the CP? Is it the skill of the player?

So if you have 300 CP and two crafted dps sets, my arbitrary minimum, then:
You will get additional 25% dps when you get to CP cap. There is limit on how much CP can carry you.
You will get additional 25% dps when you get BiS gear. There is limit on how much gear can carry you.
You will get additional 100 - 200% dps when you get enough skill and your class knowledge is top notch. And more. Only sky is limit here.
And that's just how it is.

If you want to insist on your standards of using white gear you will learn nothing about where dps comes from. Your test is skewed towards making gear most important because there is only so much you can do with bad base stats. Player can only multiply dps, he can't add to poor gear. Gear worth 0 x player skill worth 200% from average dps is still 0. That's why I proposed minimum standards. I don't know if that test is designed to make it appear that gear is more important than player skill in final damage output, but it sure looks like that. To people that are actually interested in how numbers look like, it's above in my post.
And that will be my contribution to this thread /out.

pieratsos · November 2019

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Lady_Linux wrote: »

the bottom line is people with high dps think its them. The reality is it isn't them, it's the gear, cp, and pots and what you bring to the table is really not nearly so much as you think it is.

these epeen posts are funny to me.

Gear, pots and CP definitely contribute but the difference between being executed in the right and wrong hands is massive. Player skill impacts performance more than sets.

A good player can do much better with non-meta gear and trash pots than a bad player with BiS gear and pots.

Totally true, but what this thread is suggesting is that a large chunk of DPS is not down to player ability. Thus rating a player on DPS is not an accurate reflection of their ability or whether they are ‘good’.

I would much rather take a low DPS player who was good through vSCP than a higher DPS player who was incompetent. The vast majority of content can be done with relatively low DPS.

Actually no that's not what this thread suggests at all. This thread suggests that gear plays a massive role in ur DPS. Player skill was never tested.

Its just that half of the people who read the thread chose to interpret it this way to feel better with theirselves because they suck

Actually, player skill is part of what is being tested. When we eliminate the effect of gear AND eliminate the effect of CP, all that's left is player skill. If a player can zero his CP and use generic white gear and STILL get massive dps, then that indicates it's his (or her) SKILL that's producing the dps.

However, we've not really seen that being entirely the case. Clearly, skill is a significant factor too, I'm just trying to determine how much of a factor each element is.

That's not how u test player skill. You are throwing the word massive but it has no context. You don't really have anything to compare it to.

You test player skill in a similar way you test gear and cp. You keep CP and gear exactly the same to eliminate them from ur tests and then start messing up with ur rotations to see how ur ability to perform a rotation is going to affect ur overall DPS.

Meaning that you make a test with a perfect rotation to have an idea of ur maximum DPS and then make tests by losing weaves, recast dots/buffs late or early etc to simulate a "bad" player and see the difference. Then you also have to take into account that the difference is most likely going to be even bigger in a real combat situation in which players will also have to follow mechanics.

The op literally eliminated the player skill factor from his tests. That was the whole point of monitoring his weaves to be sure that his ability to perform a rotation was not actually affecting his DPS.

By zeroing CP, we eliminate the effect of CP on damage output. By using the most basic gear possible, we eliminate the effect of having top end set gear. That leaves other sources of damage to affect DPS measures. Granted, there might be other effects than just skill (such as buff and debuff powers), but in general terms, we're narrowing the variables.

Yes you eliminate those factors from ur tests but u are still not testing player skill. If you don't test different rotations representing different types of players and compare them then you are just left with a random number with no context.

Just because the actual number u are getting with a perfect rotation, without gear and cp isn't massive it doesn't mean that player skill doesn't play a massive role in ur overall dmg output. Ur concern shouldn't be the actual number u are getting but how it compares to the DPS u are getting when u are performing a subpar rotation under the same conditions.