"DPS is through the roof" thread part 2

kringled_1

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Again, I think the main concern the devs should have is that the upper levels of dps are such that most of the game becomes trivial. That's not good for the game.

Upper level dps should be difficult to achieve. However, it can't be so high that it makes the game trivial, because it requires content be made that CAN challenge that level of dps... which most players will never be able to participate in (which is what we see now).

I think there needs to be a curve, where it would be theoretically possible to increase dps to infinity, but where it would become increasingly difficult to do so. From my perspective, at 10k damage, I can pretty well clear out anything in the general world with little difficulty. That should be the "top" end of dps. It should be possible to get past that point, but it should get more and more difficult to get even a small amount of dps after that point.

So, instead of bragging about getting 100k dps, players would still be able to brag, but it would be about getting 11k or 12k, since not many people would be able to achieve that much... but it would still mean they could be challenged by more basic content, and it would not require developers to make content SO difficult that people at 5k or 8k simply can't participate.

I don't know if I'm explaining this well. I hope people understand what I mean.

Your idea seems clear, but also seems like a very self centered way to address issues that would in practice require an enormous amount of work by the devs to achieve, and would also destroy any real sense of improvement in personal skill.
To start, I'll agree that a) most overland content presents no challenge for those regularly clearing vet group content, and that it is not ideal for the gap between top performers and beginners to be quite as large as it is. But addressing this has to be done carefully.
Your proposal would require that all old group content be massively adjusted to accommodate your not quite capped dps levels. In contrast, the devs have clearly tried to make different kinds of content that require different levels of skill to complete. Furthermore, you are suggesting that skill and gear should make almost no impact on potential dps, removing any real incentive to do anything other than slap any old gear and skills on and call it a day. That's not a game that offers challenge, that's a point and click story adventure.
I'll also add that your 10k threshold is remarkably low and is easily exceeded by someone with beginner gear and the most basic of rotations. Based on your past posts, your low dps is the result of many choices you made, from gear not suited to dps, to skill choices, and likely many other things. If you are enjoying parts of the game playing like that, be my guest. But don't ask to strip all challenge out of other parts of the game because you are unwilling to change what you are doing.

Shievarei

I would like to see evidence of people using macros, if possible.

witchdoctor

Shievarei wrote: »

I would like to see evidence of people using macros, if possible.

Just like if you cannot explain the science, then it is magic; if you cannot do it in ESO, then it is someone else cheating!

Runefang

Shievarei wrote: »

I would like to see evidence of people using macros, if possible.

Good luck finding it. Those with top end dps don’t use them because it’s too hard to get them to work consistently. Those who do them are still doing ok dps but only about average for end game players, so good luck finding those players.

I’ve tried using them before on the PTS and my dps was worse.

Morgha_Kul

kringled_1 wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Again, I think the main concern the devs should have is that the upper levels of dps are such that most of the game becomes trivial. That's not good for the game.

Upper level dps should be difficult to achieve. However, it can't be so high that it makes the game trivial, because it requires content be made that CAN challenge that level of dps... which most players will never be able to participate in (which is what we see now).

I think there needs to be a curve, where it would be theoretically possible to increase dps to infinity, but where it would become increasingly difficult to do so. From my perspective, at 10k damage, I can pretty well clear out anything in the general world with little difficulty. That should be the "top" end of dps. It should be possible to get past that point, but it should get more and more difficult to get even a small amount of dps after that point.

So, instead of bragging about getting 100k dps, players would still be able to brag, but it would be about getting 11k or 12k, since not many people would be able to achieve that much... but it would still mean they could be challenged by more basic content, and it would not require developers to make content SO difficult that people at 5k or 8k simply can't participate.

I don't know if I'm explaining this well. I hope people understand what I mean.

Your idea seems clear, but also seems like a very self centered way to address issues that would in practice require an enormous amount of work by the devs to achieve, and would also destroy any real sense of improvement in personal skill.
To start, I'll agree that a) most overland content presents no challenge for those regularly clearing vet group content, and that it is not ideal for the gap between top performers and beginners to be quite as large as it is. But addressing this has to be done carefully.
Your proposal would require that all old group content be massively adjusted to accommodate your not quite capped dps levels. In contrast, the devs have clearly tried to make different kinds of content that require different levels of skill to complete. Furthermore, you are suggesting that skill and gear should make almost no impact on potential dps, removing any real incentive to do anything other than slap any old gear and skills on and call it a day. That's not a game that offers challenge, that's a point and click story adventure.
I'll also add that your 10k threshold is remarkably low and is easily exceeded by someone with beginner gear and the most basic of rotations. Based on your past posts, your low dps is the result of many choices you made, from gear not suited to dps, to skill choices, and likely many other things. If you are enjoying parts of the game playing like that, be my guest. But don't ask to strip all challenge out of other parts of the game because you are unwilling to change what you are doing.

I agree, it would take a lot of work, and it's really unlikely to happen. Still, I believe it would have been better for the game overall.

The numbers I chose were less about accomodating ME, than recognizing that overland content is already pretty trivial to ME, even with my very low dps. If content is already being trivialized at 5k dps, then need to make the top end... somewhere not too far beyond that, or it's no different than if it's 80k dps.

Grianasteri

Elwendryll wrote: »

Stamina sorcerer, Khajiit, Lava Foot, Shadow Mundus, damage poison front, weapon damage enchant back (for all the parses)
I'd say I'm average for a progression trial player. (I cleared vSS HM)

On 21M

Relequen/Perfected Lokkestiiz + 1 Kra'gh + 1 Grundwulf + Maelstrom bow

With CP

No CP

On 3M

Relequen/Tzogvin + 2 Grundwulf + Maelstrom bow

With CP

No CP

White CP150 gear (no enchant) and weapons, 7 divine body, 3 robust jewelry, precise front, infused back (white quality enchant)

With CP

No CP

Interesting results.

Very interesting and frankly not surprising in any way shape or form.

I am so fed up of elitist players pretending that gear and CPs dont make a difference. These people seem to live in an alternate reality. YES, player skill and experience are vital - gear and CPs also make a big difference, simple.

ps, I would say that pulling 80k dps, you are far from average. The average ESO player is doing around perhaps 15 - 25k dps.

Grianasteri

karekiz wrote: »

Grianasteri wrote: »

I don't know if I'm explaining this well. I hope people understand what I mean.

WTB raid dummy parse of 10K. Should probably get someone to hold your beer first though.

I do not recall typing that, I am not saying I didnt, but can you please provide the full quote(s) for context etc, so that I can see what you are criticising.

EDIT/UPDATE: I did not write that, I think that this person did Morgha_Kul.

Grianasteri

azjuwelz wrote: »

From what I've been seeing, it's not about excuses. It's showing data that suggests there are several variables that all contribute to the dps on a given parse, and each variable can have a larger impact than many of us knew .

And from that, the suggestion is not simply to say to low dps, "L2P."

More accurately, it would be, "Learn to play, get better gear, have CP, have a decent Internet connection, and have the right traits and buffs. Oh, and race. That too."

It's everything put together, and so any complaints about low dps have to take into account all these factors, not just one.

^^ This person gets it.

For the elitists, sadly, reality does not exist. "l2p" & "get gud" is all that there is.

kringled_1

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

The numbers I chose were less about accomodating ME, than recognizing that overland content is already pretty trivial to ME, even with my very low dps. If content is already being trivialized at 5k dps, then need to make the top end... somewhere not too far beyond that, or it's no different than if it's 80k dps.

It's still a very self centered point of view. You have chosen overland content and felt that this should be where all content is aimed at difficulty wise. Do you even try group content? (normal group dungeons/ trials). Most overland content is intended to be completed by new players in mismatched gear (after all, you need there to be enough of a game for them to start and get their feet wet).

Grianasteri wrote: »

Very interesting and frankly not surprising in any way shape or form.

I am so fed up of elitist players pretending that gear and CPs dont make a difference. These people seem to live in an alternate reality. YES, player skill and experience are vital - gear and CPs also make a big difference, simple.

ps, I would say that pulling 80k dps, you are far from average. The average ESO player is doing around perhaps 15 - 25k dps.

The white gear, no CP tests grossly exaggerate how much impact CP and gear have on performance in a practical way. They are interesting as a theoretical test. In practice, if those tests had been run at 300cp with say Hundings rage and Spriggans, the results would have been quite a bit closer. It's also quite well accepted that the relequen set is incredibly strong in a single target situation. Also, the average player numbers you have there are not really comparable to target iron atronach numbers.

Elwendryll

Grianasteri wrote: »

ps, I would say that pulling 80k dps, you are far from average. The average ESO player is doing around perhaps 15 - 25k dps.

I meant average for someone being part of a core trial group and doing trials several times a week. I'm far from the possible best, and a lot of people in my guilds are doing way better than me in term of pure dps, and we're fairly casual.
Obviously to get this much dps you need to invest the time. I've been playing for 4 years.

kringled_1 wrote: »

The white gear, no CP tests grossly exaggerate how much impact CP and gear have on performance in a practical way. They are interesting as a theoretical test. In practice, if those tests had been run at 300cp with say Hundings rage and Spriggans, the results would have been quite a bit closer. It's also quite well accepted that the relequen set is incredibly strong in a single target situation. Also, the average player numbers you have there are not really comparable to target iron atronach numbers.

I agree. I didn't want to spend too much time on that. The sets I used were my usual setups for trials (on 21M), and I just go with Tzogvin and double Grundwulf when I parse on 3M to make up for the absence of synergy and the lack of sustain.

If I wanted something more realistic, I would have switched Shadow Mundus stone for the Lover, Sharpened front weapon. Purple quality gear, 300 CP, Hunding + NMG. Instead of going full white gear (weapons included, who does that?) because it would be more relevant to compare with an average player actually trying to get decent dps.

The loss of CPs shouldn't have such a huge impact. It's because I went with my optimal build and just removed CP whereas in an ideal case I would change my build. I have around 60 points in penetration.

Morgha_Kul

kringled_1 wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

The numbers I chose were less about accomodating ME, than recognizing that overland content is already pretty trivial to ME, even with my very low dps. If content is already being trivialized at 5k dps, then need to make the top end... somewhere not too far beyond that, or it's no different than if it's 80k dps.

It's still a very self centered point of view. You have chosen overland content and felt that this should be where all content is aimed at difficulty wise. Do you even try group content? (normal group dungeons/ trials). Most overland content is intended to be completed by new players in mismatched gear (after all, you need there to be enough of a game for them to start and get their feet wet).

Overland content (and delves and the like) account for something like 90% of the game. That's why I choose that as the point where difficulty should be measured. If the upper level of dps makes overland content trivial, it's making 90% of the game trivial, and that's not how it should be.

buttaface

Shievarei wrote: »

I would like to see evidence of people using macros, if possible.

Good luck having any evidence out there for the finding. Have been playing these games a long time, have seen people using aimbots in PVE games and speed hacks to harvest nodes in THIS game (only a few in relation to the thousands i've seen out gathering nodes, but still). There is a whole generation and a half of players of all games who think cheat codes are an AOK play style.

So yeah, players use cheats and macros in all these games. Not as much as newer or less experienced players may think, but FAR more than the "gitgud" "weeebittooserious" types will admit.

As far as them not working "all the time" so f what? They work plenty. A macro to reapply buffs and put a light attack in between... works EVERY time and is a HUGE advantage. A macro to maximally animation cancel and LA weave a skill or series works well enough and is a HUGE advantage. Different ping you say? Well just make the macro allow for a ping range, still far more efficient than human fingers.

When macros are discussed, it's as if the "weebittooserious" crowd suddenly turns technologically illiterate. Do macros work in all cases on all bosses and all mechanics? Of course not, but please just stop with the "they aren't used" canard. Fooling no one.

SidraWillowsky

[snip] TAG's newest video exploring what makes up DPS. [snip]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGs70iXrFoM

I also created a painstakingly boring video where I create a magplar in the PTS and get her LA damage incrementally (with nothing, then with 64 points into magicka, then with staff passives and then up through getting fully-geared with the vMA staff and allocating CP. It also involves picking out a costume so you're not watching a naked Breton for 20 minutes, adjusting addons, sitting and thinking, and other interesting activities. I recorded it all without pausing so that you cannot accuse me of pausing to go add whatever cheats are possible with a controller. My LAs hit 13k in non-execute with a full CP allocation, all skills/passives, Zaan/perfect Siroria/Mother's Sorrow/vMA staff, spell power potions, and using a "rotation" that involves keeping up Unstable Wall, Barbed Trap, and Solar Barrage while just light attacking. Here's where I do that:

https://youtu.be/FbLS33PlKFs?t=3274

But... you have access to the PTS, as you mentioned in earlier threads. You can go in and test for yourselves and I'm not sure why you haven't done that yet... I promise that you WILL NOT DIE if you create a throwaway meta build to see for yourself how people get their LA damage so high...

[edited for baiting comment]

BxBourne

Since dragonhold there is something wrong with dps on a 3mil and 21mil test dummy. Iam a day 1 player and i have everything BIS and optimized.Dps is so bad i brought a new router and cat7 cables thinking that might be the issue but its not problem persist. I couldnt get over 26k on 3mil with a magplar iam used to getting 45k The issue iam seeing must be from something technical, attacks may not be registering, animation cancelling seems slower now, input lag is worse. I cant get respectable dps numbers on a test dummy. I dont know if test dummy is the issue, or its a class issue, a specific type of damage not registering but something with the game is wrong. Ive heard players during gameplay are having dps issues also. @ZOS_GinaBruno pls look into possible game issues as it relates to dps.

Iam on PS4 NA. Thanks.

Zephard

BxBourne wrote: »

Since dragonhold there is something wrong with dps on a 3mil and 21mil test dummy. Iam a day 1 player and i have everything BIS and optimized.Dps is so bad i brought a new router and cat7 cables thinking that might be the issue but its not problem persist. I couldnt get over 26k on 3mil with a magplar iam used to getting 45k The issue iam seeing must be from something technical, attacks may not be registering, animation cancelling seems slower now, input lag is worse. I cant get respectable dps numbers on a test dummy. I dont know if test dummy is the issue, or its a class issue, a specific type of damage not registering but something with the game is wrong. Ive heard players during gameplay are having dps issues also. @ZOS_GinaBruno pls look into possible game issues as it relates to dps.

Iam on PS4 NA. Thanks.

Glad you said you are PS4 NA, but you left off what type of DPS you are, which skills you are using. As you state it could be quite a bit of things, but if it is a bug, it might be skill specific.

BxBourne

Zephard wrote: »

BxBourne wrote: »

Since dragonhold there is something wrong with dps on a 3mil and 21mil test dummy. Iam a day 1 player and i have everything BIS and optimized.Dps is so bad i brought a new router and cat7 cables thinking that might be the issue but its not problem persist. I couldnt get over 26k on 3mil with a magplar iam used to getting 45k The issue iam seeing must be from something technical, attacks may not be registering, animation cancelling seems slower now, input lag is worse. I cant get respectable dps numbers on a test dummy. I dont know if test dummy is the issue, or its a class issue, a specific type of damage not registering but something with the game is wrong. Ive heard players during gameplay are having dps issues also. @ZOS_GinaBruno pls look into possible game issues as it relates to dps.

Iam on PS4 NA. Thanks.

Glad you said you are PS4 NA, but you left off what type of DPS you are, which skills you are using. As you state it could be quite a bit of things, but if it is a bug, it might be skill specific.

Iam on a magplar front bar iam using degeneration, elemental weapon, purifying light, blazing spear and radiant oppression. Backbar: unstable wall, solar barrage, vamp bane, barbwd trap, channeled focus. Sets are false god and mothers sorrow and zaans. Ive noticed same issue with magcro. I hope that helps. Thanks for replying.

TheGreatBlackBear

This thread just won't die. Kind of like adds/bosses being attacked by some of the posters in this thread.

SidraWillowsky

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

This thread just won't die. Kind of like adds/bosses being attacked by some of the posters in this there.

At this point I'm operating out of sheer stubbornness + a bit of a grudge due to the unrelenting obtuseness of several players.

ADMIT DEFEAT.

I suspect that I may have been put on ignore by two people, so this is likely all for naught.

Zephard

BxBourne wrote: »

Iam on a magplar front bar iam using degeneration, elemental weapon, purifying light, blazing spear and radiant oppression. Backbar: unstable wall, solar barrage, vamp bane, barbwd trap, channeled focus. Sets are false god and mothers sorrow and zaans. Ive noticed same issue with magcro. I hope that helps. Thanks for replying.

So I don't see it much, haven't learn to see it I think, cause I am mostly a tank then healer then dps.
But my wife, about every other night seems to have problems with her dps not LA weaving or skills not going off.
We are PC NA, and on decent computers with 100/100 internet speeds so don't think its just you.

She normally has to /reloadui to get her stuff to start working again. Now is it really a reloadui or the time it takes for her to reload that clears up the problem, I don't know. She does find it really annoying.

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

This thread just won't die. Kind of like adds/bosses being attacked by some of the posters in this there.

LOL.

And this side topic had nothing to do with the OP topic.....lol