"DPS is through the roof" thread part 2

Royaji · November 2019

SirDopey wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

SirDopey wrote: »

Urgh - again these parses are what "disinform" the devs. Your 50k parse, while its great for bragging rights and all, its perfectly clear that you wouldn't be able to maintain those numbers unless in a perfectly organised group. The gap between your magic regen and drains is so huge that you couldn't hit those numbers on a +3m target.

Cheesed Parses are Chessed Parses and should NOT be used EVER as an indicator for where DPS is and whether DPS is in a healthy enough place to allow the average player to progress....

Except I can and do. I have access to my own major breach and minor berserk as a magden, and on top of that I've got minor vulnerability. As a result, my DPS doesn't increase as much as other classes in groups, but I can regularly hit 45ishk in dungeons and trials.

There's not a whole lot in the parse that I don't do/use in actual game play- I always use the false gods and spell strategist, and I'll use Zaan for fights that are generally single-target and fairly stationary. I use Iceheart otherwise. The only thing that changes in my bar setup is that I use Channeled Acceleration instead of Barbed Trap; if a healer's not running Ele Drain I may swap Trap out for it. For trash fights I may use Force Pulse instead of Dive; I've tested both and they're very close in terms of DPS output. Lastly, I run either Witchmother's or Clockwork Citrus vs. Ghastly Eye Bowl.

Like I said Cheese is cheese and those parses are cheese. Swap out the skills you are swapping out and your dps will drop, attack a target that has more than 3 mill health (aka Vet DLC +, Trials etc) and you're going to be hitting like a wet noodle at the end because your resource drain is sooooo much higher than your recovery, your gap is huge, theres no way you can sustain those numbers based on the stats you have posted......

That all suggests another cheesed dummy parse, and its these cheesed parses that need to stop being published because its them the devs look at and think, geez maybe DPS is too high when they're completely irrelevant to what the average output is when doing the harder content

I thought "cheesed parses" died with the release of Iron Atro. Although people who do not understand the value behind dummy numbers are still alive and kicking I guess.

And sometimes I feel bad for the guy who runs analytics at ZOS. People on the forums really underestimate his work.

Yes, of course, ZOS has access to logs from every dungeon/trial/arena instance in the game, with full and detailed information about how long the fights took, which skills have dealt the most damage, which skills have killed players and so on and so forth, but they will be looking at dummy parses to judge if the damage is too high or not. Sure thing.

DaNnYtHePcFrEaK · November 2019

I dont see how hard it is to hit high LA Damage, this is a very poor parse and wrong mundus too

I even got a 0.88 LA ratio ON A CONTROLLER!

Instead of pointing fingers at good players, do what they did and get good yourself

DaNnYtHePcFrEaK · November 2019

http://imgur.com/gallery/942t7QW

SirDopey · November 2019

DaNnYtHePcFrEaK wrote: »

http://imgur.com/gallery/942t7QW

lol what is eye scream, is that the buff name for the food?

Morgha_Kul · November 2019

Ok, so I went out and did some fighting to get some sense of where my dps is coming from.

My usual setup is a combo of
Thunderbug's Carapace (all purple), on the helm, shoulders and jewlery, all health enchants.
Shacklebreaker Medium (all blue, didn't have the materials to upgrade further) for all other armour, no enchantments.
Sword and Shield of Agility (for Max Stamina, both purple)

I won't detail my CP expenditures, but they're fairly balanced according to suggestions I've seen elsewhere. Most damage improving nodes are at 37 points, or whatever value near that represents the break point.

Using sword and board, my skill bar is:
1- Honour the Dead (self heal)
2- Deep Slash (area effect)
3- Reverberating Bash (for the stun, when tanking I'll swap out for Ransack)
4- Absorb Missile (sometimes I'll swap for Shielded Assault, depending on how much shield I need)
5- Ritual of Retribution

I used food that boosts all my stats by around 4000.

Not having access to a target dummy, and with much of my damage coming from the Thunderbug's Carapace, I went into the world and actually fought bad guys. I tried to keep it consistent, so I spent my time fighting the big World Boss Daedroth over near Wayrest (minimal adds, so all the damage should be consistent as far as resistances and such).

I fought the Daedroth 50 times, and averaged my dps according to Combat Metrics.
My high dps was 5444. My low was 3245. The average across 50 fights was 3974.2 A few of the lower numbers were the result of having to chase him around when he was going after other players, and a few higher ones might be from them debuffing him or some such. I figure with 50 fights, it works out about even.

I then went and made myself equipment matching the type of the other gear (ie. medium with a couple of heavy), and repeated the 50 fights. My high dps was 3572, my low was 2119. The average was 2607.56 across 50 fights.

Clearly my gear is having a substantial impact on my damage. It also had a substantial impact on my survivability, forcing me to stop hitting the foe occasionally to heal myself, something I generally didn't have to do with my regular gear. As before, there were occasions where other players joined in, but the effect of this should be minimal.

I then cleared my 601CP, and ran the tests again.

50 fights in regular gear resulted in a low of 1776 and a high of 3764 with an average of 2747.72.
50 more in generic gear resulted in a low of 1525 and a high of 2011 with an average of 1988.25.

So gear and CP are definitely having an effect (to be expected). I'd have to do a statistical analysis to see if the differences are significant, but they sure FEEL significant in play.

witchdoctor · November 2019

A 100 WB kills on a tank?

Props to you, mate.

Morgha_Kul · November 2019

witchdoctor wrote: »

A 100 WB kills on a tank?

Props to you, mate.

Took some time, let me tell you.

Grianasteri · November 2019

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Since the original thread got locked due to outdated information, I'm starting a new one. Particularly because I was intrigued by what @Morgha_Kul was wondering:

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

I wonder if someone with higher dps might try something and report back.

First, tell us what kind of dps you're getting as you are, kitted out normally.

Next, tell us what your dps is with GENERIC gear. No sets, nothing green, blue, purple or better... just plain white gear.

Finally tell us what dps you get in both prior conditions if you take away ALL Champion Points.

In each case, use the same skills and weapons (eg. if you're using a 2H sword in one test, use a 2H sword in all tests).

This will give us four data points.

Normal, advanced and set gear with full CP.
Generic, white gear with full CP.
Normal, advanced and set gear with NO CP.
Generic, white gear with NO CP.

Just curious to know what kind of numbers we will see. It might help us determine where the damage is coming from. Is it the gear? Is it the CP? Is it the skill of the player?

I can provide the first two data points.

I am max CP and my main is a magden. I have my CP allocated more or less the way that Alcast recommends, and my parse gear is (all Legendary) Spell Strat jewels, Bloodthirsty + spell dmg enchants + front bar inferno staff that's precise with a flame enchant; perfected False God's body, all Divines; Zaan head and shoulders, Divines; vMA inferno back bar, infused + weapon damage enchant.

Shadow mundus, all attributes into magicka, Ghastly eye bowl parse food, spell power potions

Front bar: Fissure, Dive, Fetcher, Degeneration, Bird of Prey
Back bar: Unstable Wall, Winter's Revenge, Elemental Drain, Barbed Trap, Bird of Prey.
Eternal Guardian ulti

My best 3 mil parse with the full setup described above is around 50k:

In general, my LA/second ratio is between .87 and .91

I then went into the PTS and made all-white gear with the same traits/enchants as I described above. Bar setup/mundus/etc stayed the same

I was pretty shocked. My DPS was halved:

LA/second ratio is about .87. Perhaps a bit lower, but it's within what I expect to be normal for me. I say that to highlight the fact that I'm LA weaving fairly consistently across parses.

I don't know what I expected, but it sure wasn't as drastic of a drop as this turned out to be. I tried over and over and couldn't get above 25k. I incrementally improved the gear to green, then blue, and finally purple. Each improvement netted about a 1.5k DPS increase- I was hitting about 28.5k with all purple gear. I parse consistent numbers, so there's little variance in terms of numbers within each gear setup.

For funsies, I used the generic purple gear but swapped in the vMA inferno staff on the back bar:

THEN, I made white sets of Julianos, Innate Axiom, and 2 pieces of Assassin's Guile (adds spell crit). Same traits/enchants as above. Easy 32k. I got distracted for a few seconds and missed a few light attacks, so my LA/second ratio is low, so it could be even higher with a better parse:

Removing CP from the equation next is going to be catastrophic to my sustain- I'm pushing it as-is. I'll try that later, but I forsee a LOT of heavy attacks and general struggle bus-iness in my future. Not looking forward to that,

All of this proves what I and other have been saying for a very long time, the gear level/set up/build are massively important for dps. While skill is of course extremely important, it is certainly not the only factor.

This is important to understand because of the way the vast majority of average, casual players play ESO. They are very often not running around in gold or even purple gear, they often do not have traits optimised, or enchants, they often do not have monster sets active, they often do not even have full 5 piece sets active and they certainly very often do not have master or maelstrom weapons. Nor, importantly, do they spend their free time trawling through forums or online guides. These factors account for thousands and thousands of dps.

The reason I mention all this, is to encourage the elitist end gamer (top 10 - 15% dps) to stop looking down on the vast majority of the player base and screaming "learn to play", "stop being lazy" etc. I am sorry to say that you completely fail to understand how a great many people, the majority in fact, play ESO.

I met a CP650 player over the weekend. They were articulate, intelligent and willing to learn. Their dps was around 10k. Yep, thats right. They had no monster set on. They had only 1 full 5 piece active and it was a set that was not appropriate for dungeon content. They didnt get to CP650 by being lazy or not caring, clearly it takes time and effort to get to CP650. This person is the perfect example of the average ESO player.

Its the type of person that overland/questing/normal dungeon content is designed for, and rightly so. Bare that in mind next time you scream about how easy something is or how awful/lazy someone is.

That is all, you may go about your business.

TheGreatBlackBear · November 2019

Somehow this thread is spicier than part one. Lol. I love it when lazy low dps potatoes demand ish like if we have nothing better to do. "Go parse for me, please. While I'm there. In your ESO house. And in your real-world house" Like gtfo. The time you spent obsessing on other people's numbers could be spent improving your rotations or it could be time spent coming to terms with your mediocrity.

Vahrokh · November 2019

Grianasteri wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Since the original thread got locked due to outdated information, I'm starting a new one. Particularly because I was intrigued by what @Morgha_Kul was wondering:

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

I wonder if someone with higher dps might try something and report back.

First, tell us what kind of dps you're getting as you are, kitted out normally.

Next, tell us what your dps is with GENERIC gear. No sets, nothing green, blue, purple or better... just plain white gear.

Finally tell us what dps you get in both prior conditions if you take away ALL Champion Points.

In each case, use the same skills and weapons (eg. if you're using a 2H sword in one test, use a 2H sword in all tests).

This will give us four data points.

Normal, advanced and set gear with full CP.
Generic, white gear with full CP.
Normal, advanced and set gear with NO CP.
Generic, white gear with NO CP.

Just curious to know what kind of numbers we will see. It might help us determine where the damage is coming from. Is it the gear? Is it the CP? Is it the skill of the player?

I can provide the first two data points.

I am max CP and my main is a magden. I have my CP allocated more or less the way that Alcast recommends, and my parse gear is (all Legendary) Spell Strat jewels, Bloodthirsty + spell dmg enchants + front bar inferno staff that's precise with a flame enchant; perfected False God's body, all Divines; Zaan head and shoulders, Divines; vMA inferno back bar, infused + weapon damage enchant.

Shadow mundus, all attributes into magicka, Ghastly eye bowl parse food, spell power potions

Front bar: Fissure, Dive, Fetcher, Degeneration, Bird of Prey
Back bar: Unstable Wall, Winter's Revenge, Elemental Drain, Barbed Trap, Bird of Prey.
Eternal Guardian ulti

My best 3 mil parse with the full setup described above is around 50k:

In general, my LA/second ratio is between .87 and .91

I then went into the PTS and made all-white gear with the same traits/enchants as I described above. Bar setup/mundus/etc stayed the same

I was pretty shocked. My DPS was halved:

LA/second ratio is about .87. Perhaps a bit lower, but it's within what I expect to be normal for me. I say that to highlight the fact that I'm LA weaving fairly consistently across parses.

I don't know what I expected, but it sure wasn't as drastic of a drop as this turned out to be. I tried over and over and couldn't get above 25k. I incrementally improved the gear to green, then blue, and finally purple. Each improvement netted about a 1.5k DPS increase- I was hitting about 28.5k with all purple gear. I parse consistent numbers, so there's little variance in terms of numbers within each gear setup.

For funsies, I used the generic purple gear but swapped in the vMA inferno staff on the back bar:

THEN, I made white sets of Julianos, Innate Axiom, and 2 pieces of Assassin's Guile (adds spell crit). Same traits/enchants as above. Easy 32k. I got distracted for a few seconds and missed a few light attacks, so my LA/second ratio is low, so it could be even higher with a better parse:

Removing CP from the equation next is going to be catastrophic to my sustain- I'm pushing it as-is. I'll try that later, but I forsee a LOT of heavy attacks and general struggle bus-iness in my future. Not looking forward to that,

All of this proves what I and other have been saying for a very long time, the gear level/set up/build are massively important for dps. While skill is of course extremely important, it is certainly not the only factor.

This is important to understand because of the way the vast majority of average, casual players play ESO. They are very often not running around in gold or even purple gear, they often do not have traits optimised, or enchants, they often do not have monster sets active, they often do not even have full 5 piece sets active and they certainly very often do not have master or maelstrom weapons. Nor, importantly, do they spend their free time trawling through forums or online guides. These factors account for thousands and thousands of dps.

The reason I mention all this, is to encourage the elitist end gamer (top 10 - 15% dps) to stop looking down on the vast majority of the player base and screaming "learn to play", "stop being lazy" etc. I am sorry to say that you completely fail to understand how a great many people, the majority in fact, play ESO.

I met a CP650 player over the weekend. They were articulate, intelligent and willing to learn. Their dps was around 10k. Yep, thats right. They had no monster set on. They had only 1 full 5 piece active and it was a set that was not appropriate for dungeon content. They didnt get to CP650 by being lazy or not caring, clearly it takes time and effort to get to CP650. This person is the perfect example of the average ESO player.

Its the type of person that overland/questing/normal dungeon content is designed for, and rightly so. Bare that in mind next time you scream about how easy something is or how awful/lazy someone is.

That is all, you may go about your business.

There's even more than that. As decently competitive trial player, I used to "learn and adapt", grind golden gear set after gear set. Grind veteran and hm dungeons. Figure out rotations or watch 30 minutes long videos about it.

Then, one day, I had enough.

Because they don't give you the time to reap any rewards for your "learning and adapting". 1 week after you finished to gold and enchant your last BiS piece and honed your rotation, ZOS announces your gear is now trash, your rotation is trash, your class defining skills are now trash and being replaced by some general placeholder.

Just. Why. Bother. Any. More.

Morgha_Kul · November 2019

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Somehow this thread is spicier than part one. Lol. I love it when lazy low dps potatoes demand ish like if we have nothing better to do. "Go parse for me, please. While I'm there. In your ESO house. And in your real-world house" Like gtfo. The time you spent obsessing on other people's numbers could be spent improving your rotations or it could be time spent coming to terms with your mediocrity.

No one is demanding anything. I made a request, you're free to decline. Also, can we stop with this nonsense of looking down your nose at people that choose to play in a manner different than you?

Part of the point of this, and what we've seen here, is that improving rotations is only a small portion of the damage puzzle. Gear has a substantial impact. CP has a substantial impact. Sure, rotation and skill is important too, but it's not ALL about that.

TheGreatBlackBear · November 2019

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Somehow this thread is spicier than part one. Lol. I love it when lazy low dps potatoes demand ish like if we have nothing better to do. "Go parse for me, please. While I'm there. In your ESO house. And in your real-world house" Like gtfo. The time you spent obsessing on other people's numbers could be spent improving your rotations or it could be time spent coming to terms with your mediocrity.

No one is demanding anything. I made a request, you're free to decline. Also, can we stop with this nonsense of looking down your nose at people that choose to play in a manner different than you?

Part of the point of this, and what we've seen here, is that improving rotations is only a small portion of the damage puzzle. Gear has a substantial impact. CP has a substantial impact. Sure, rotation and skill is important too, but it's not ALL about that.

In the immortal words of Tree Minder Na-Kesh "No. No, I think not."I honestly don't care how you choose to play the game. It doesn't affect my time or scores. My issue is when you and people like you refuse help, refuse advice then moan on and on and bloody on about hard it is to do good dps. It's always some excuse for why you're hitting sub 30k and struggling to complete vet dlc dungeons in a timely manner. "I don't have gold BiS gear. I don't have max CP. I live in the middle of nowhere and have bad internet. The class I love keeps getting nerfed."

As @T3hasiangod said so many times crafted/beginner gear is percentage points away from BIS gear in terms of DPS output. The difference CP makes for your DPS decreases the more you have of it. Go watch his videos where he compares the effective of sets like a leviathan, deadly, hundings, briarheart and advancing to relequen for example. You have so many tools on races, classes, rotations to educate yourself but still, you get up, turn on your device, and type this kind of garbage. Asking for a tape of his fingers? Really? until you guys get a clue you'll continue to be ridiculed, on the forums and in-game.

vesselwiththepestle · November 2019

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Part of the point of this, and what we've seen here, is that improving rotations is only a small portion of the damage puzzle. Gear has a substantial impact. CP has a substantial impact. Sure, rotation and skill is important too, but it's not ALL about that.

I think you are under-estamitating rotation and skill by calling it a small portion. Just get on PTS, where you have all gear available and do your tests there.

Kolzki · November 2019

i

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Somehow this thread is spicier than part one. Lol. I love it when lazy low dps potatoes demand ish like if we have nothing better to do. "Go parse for me, please. While I'm there. In your ESO house. And in your real-world house" Like gtfo. The time you spent obsessing on other people's numbers could be spent improving your rotations or it could be time spent coming to terms with your mediocrity.

No one is demanding anything. I made a request, you're free to decline. Also, can we stop with this nonsense of looking down your nose at people that choose to play in a manner different than you?

Part of the point of this, and what we've seen here, is that improving rotations is only a small portion of the damage puzzle. Gear has a substantial impact. CP has a substantial impact. Sure, rotation and skill is important too, but it's not ALL about that.

I have to disagree that rotations are a small part of the puzzle. Rotations form your base dps. Gear will scale that up but without the rotation your gear will just scale up a very small number. Trial gear is not the difference between 15k dps and 50+.

You can’t separate builds and rotations. You need both. Whether someone wants to work on their rotations or not is up to them. But if the message here is that end game gear is the solution to high dps then that message is wrong. Without a solid rotation with good skill/buff up times and passives that trial gear won’t add much to your dps over some of the cheap overland sets.

kylewwefan · November 2019

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

It's not letting me edit, but just to clarify, these are all 3 mil parses because I'm too lazy to sit in front of the 6 or 21 mil for this testing. My 3 and 6 mil parses are the same; I'm sitting at about 76k on the 21 mil with my full (Zaan/Spell Strat/FGD) setup

I wouldn’t call it too lazy. You’ve spent a good chunk of time trying out non optimal gear setups even with a coveted vMA staff to see how much difference it makes.

SunSpire bosses with 130 mil health; fights broken up into 4 quarters/ flights; divided by 8 DPS; each DD is only looking at having to dish out ~4 mil damage between flights. It doesn’t make sense for everyone to run around beating on a 21 mil health dummy

What I saw this patch is all dots got their nuts clipped and won’t carry to a higher damage anymore.

For this class, light attack and deep fissures make up roughly %40 + of total damage no matter what gear you have on. That’s interesting, don’t ya think? Obviously the bread and butter of your rotation, I one time tried simplifying my stamden rotation to few key skills and still came within %10 of my max DPS probably because I was able to perform an easier rotation cleaner.

If only every class were that easy to figure out.

kringled_1 · November 2019

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Somehow this thread is spicier than part one. Lol. I love it when lazy low dps potatoes demand ish like if we have nothing better to do. "Go parse for me, please. While I'm there. In your ESO house. And in your real-world house" Like gtfo. The time you spent obsessing on other people's numbers could be spent improving your rotations or it could be time spent coming to terms with your mediocrity.

No one is demanding anything. I made a request, you're free to decline. Also, can we stop with this nonsense of looking down your nose at people that choose to play in a manner different than you?

Part of the point of this, and what we've seen here, is that improving rotations is only a small portion of the damage puzzle. Gear has a substantial impact. CP has a substantial impact. Sure, rotation and skill is important too, but it's not ALL about that.

I'm not sure how you can reach that conclusion at all. First of all, rotation. You r skill bar doesn't really support any real rotation at all. Two defensive skills, one of which scales on magicka. Three offensive skills two of which scale on stamina, and one is a CC. With those bars, I think the best you could do would be to put down ritual and basically weave light attacks and deep slash, bash if your stamina can support it.

Second, gear. Gear has a very high impact on your dps, because as you note, the set proc is a big chunk of your damage. But when most people say that gear isn't a big deal, they don't mean that you can do good dps in any old combination of gear. For the most part, they mean that the differences between what people consider bis gear and what someone like Alcast lists as beginner gear isn't huge. For both magicka and stamina you can put together decent combinations using crafted and easily gotten overland sets.

I went looking for your Daedroth WB this morning but someone had already killed him, so I went for Trapjaw in Glenumbra. This was on a level 29 magplar, using blue quality Julianos and seducer sets, in mostly impenetrable trait. Gear is several levels below my character. I am missing a lot of passives, and several important active skills; I also don't really know magplar rotation well (this character will be where I plan to learn that). I still pulled an average of 14k dps. I'm sure much better would be possible.

Kolzki · November 2019

kylewwefan wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

It's not letting me edit, but just to clarify, these are all 3 mil parses because I'm too lazy to sit in front of the 6 or 21 mil for this testing. My 3 and 6 mil parses are the same; I'm sitting at about 76k on the 21 mil with my full (Zaan/Spell Strat/FGD) setup

I wouldn’t call it too lazy. You’ve spent a good chunk of time trying out non optimal gear setups even with a coveted vMA staff to see how much difference it makes.

SunSpire bosses with 130 mil health; fights broken up into 4 quarters/ flights; divided by 8 DPS; each DD is only looking at having to dish out ~4 mil damage between flights. It doesn’t make sense for everyone to run around beating on a 21 mil health dummy

What I saw this patch is all dots got their nuts clipped and won’t carry to a higher damage anymore.

For this class, light attack and deep fissures make up roughly %40 + of total damage no matter what gear you have on. That’s interesting, don’t ya think? Obviously the bread and butter of your rotation, I one time tried simplifying my stamden rotation to few key skills and still came within %10 of my max DPS probably because I was able to perform an easier rotation cleaner.

If only every class were that easy to figure out.

Did you also keep endless hail up to proc enchants, keep your sources of brutality and savagery up and use sub every three skills? The dot nerfs this patch allow for some very simple rotations but we still have to keep the core buffs and rotation elements up.

The OP managed 25k dps on a basic dummy using white generic gear. That’s with good rotation, passives buff management and good cp allocation. That’s 5 times the dps of the world boss example a few posts up which didn’t even appear to have a back bar weapon slotted let alone a rotation.

kylewwefan · November 2019

Of course you need to buff up. And use some skills wisely.

That dude from a couple posts up, is a straight tank type setup. Two to five thousand DPS. It’s being nice to include him in the conversation, but DPS is not really this guys thing.

On stamden in some hard carry gear, I could endless hail, trap beast, swap, sub assault, Lalala SubAssault lalala sub assault

Start over

And have surprisingly decent results. Because it’s the gear, and simple rotation. I dropped caltrops, Poison injection, Rending slashes and dive straight out of the rotation and it barely mattered.

Bladerunner1 · November 2019

There's another HUGE thing worth considering when looking at differences in DPS from one build to the next. People are talking about the light attacks, but a bigger contribution comes from skills per minute.

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

I just want to say, that since the last update (or two, havent done a parse in a while), using the same rotation and, in my eyes, a better build (crit kitty StamNB) from last time, my parse dropped from 36k to 25k.

I was a little upset.

I mained a stamblade for about a year. I actually only made the magden with the intent of trying her out in vMA, but the class was so fun to me that I switched full-time.

I might be doing something wrong, but my stamblade is now in utter shambles too. My DPS dropped about as much as yours did, and she now hits like a wet noodle and is super squishy to boot. Apparently Stamblades are doing well this patch but I'm feeling weaker than ever. I feel you there.

My stamblade was the main for about 4 years, and it's a lot weaker for me as well. I found out that the number of skills per minute is really low compared to other classes I play. I work hard to land every light attack with a bow in order to maximize the relentless focus procs, but over my weak connection I'm slowing down the rotation to keep each light attack connecting.

On other classes like Necromancer I don't care if some light attacks are missed, there is no speed limit beyond simply the global skill cooldown.

My necro (dual wield / dual wield) gets 55 skills per minute with 90% light attacks landing, and another 4.5 freebee skill casts of detonating siphon.

My stamblade (bow-bow) is 46 skills per minute with 97%+ light attacks landing. *Edit* this is with a bow/bow DOT build, only one cast of snipe per rotation.

Skill casts per minute correlate directly with damage over time. My necro/ stamblade comparison is a difference of 19% damage over time just based on skill speed alone (55-46)÷46, not factoring in the skill damage differences themselves.

TriangularChicken · November 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

Well, some people caught one of those uber Youtube elites cheating a DPS mannequin with a block cast macro.
This is what happens when you have a broken gameplay engine and promote glitches to game features.

@Vahrokh
dude there is a discord (TRE) where ppl upload pictures of 80k+ parses every day. they have to be cheating (bash macro) for sure. and on top of that i think they are animation canceling as well. its mostly EU guys tho which makes me believe that they are cheating more over there..looks like EU > NA to me

Kolzki · November 2019

TriangularChicken wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Well, some people caught one of those uber Youtube elites cheating a DPS mannequin with a block cast macro.
This is what happens when you have a broken gameplay engine and promote glitches to game features.

@Vahrokh
dude there is a discord (TRE) where ppl upload pictures of 80k+ parses every day. they have to be cheating (bash macro) for sure. and on top of that i think they are animation canceling as well. its mostly EU guys tho which makes me believe that they are cheating more over there..looks like EU > NA to me

I’m honestly not sure if this ones a troll but I’ll bite anyway. Just bind a key to bash and spend a few minutes practicing left click > skill > bash. It’s perfectly possible to do without macros with a little practise. It’s also only about 2k or less of those 80k+ parses. If you’re not in a group pushing vet dlc trials in hard modes then you really don’t need it.

MasterSpatula · November 2019

While a lot of people have been like, "I can't believe how high the percentage of damage gear/CP/pots are," I'm like, "I can't believe how low they are."

Speaking as someone who's had physical therapy for poor coordination, as someone who can't even hit the intended buttons consistently much less hit them in a precise order in precise timing, it's pretty discouraging to me how much the player's manual dexterity matters in what's theoretically an RPG.

With the same gear and abilities used in the same order, one player might hit double or triple the DPS of the other based entirely on precise timing. I get that a lot of players think that's a positive. I just find it disheartening.

SidraWillowsky · November 2019

MasterSpatula wrote: »

While a lot of people have been like, "I can't believe how high the percentage of damage gear/CP/pots are," I'm like, "I can't believe how low they are."

Speaking as someone who's had physical therapy for poor coordination, as someone who can't even hit the intended buttons consistently much less hit them in a precise order in precise timing, it's pretty discouraging to me how much the player's manual dexterity matters in what's theoretically an RPG.

With the same gear and abilities used in the same order, one player might hit double or triple the DPS of the other based entirely on precise timing. I get that a lot of players think that's a positive. I just find it disheartening.

Ugh, I'm sorry. I don't know if this will help at all, but I didn't post parses from a bunch of other testing I did. When I equipped Julianos, Spell Strategist, and Grothdarr, my DPS went up to 41-42k. With a slowed-down rotation where instead of animation canceling I simply light attack in between skills, I can hit between 25 and 35k depending on the class and gear.

Feel free to ignore this, but some unsolicited advice- if you have trouble with rotations/animation canceling/whatever, I’d avoid sets that proc off of specific types of damage (Zaan with its light and heavy attacks, Selene with its direct melee damage, Burning Spellweave, Relequen, etc) and instead go for sets that proc off of *any* damage (Mad Tinkerer, Pillar of Nirn, Grothdarr, etc) so that you can activate them with any damage attack, or sets with flat bonuses, like Mother’s Sorrow, Spinner’s, Spriggan’s, or Leviathan. Pick a class that can provide some good passives- I’m obviously partial to Wardens, and they’re great because you can get minor berserk just by having Bird of Prey slotted. Then slot something that gives you weapon/spell crit ratings, depending on your class- Inner Light for mag or Camo Hunter for stam. Double-bar that then add a few class skills for the other three slots on each bar (fissure/cliff racer/fetcher infection and winter’s revenge/netch/leeching vines on a magden would work nicely).

So if you went magden, you could use Mad Tinkerer, Mother’s Sorrow, and Grothdarr. You’ve got the bear to do some of the work for you and passively have both minor berserk and major prophecy. Netch, Fissure, and Fetcher provide major sorcery, major breach, and minor vulnerability, winter’s revenge is just plain strong, and leeching vines is a great heal that does some damage, so you can’t really go wrong hitting buttons in any order. Any damage you deal will be able to proc Grothdarr and Mad Tinkerer, and, though annoying at crafting stations, the bear is helpful as well.

Along with the fact that individuals like you are at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to combat style, another major issue I’m seeing is peoples’ reluctance to try anything that’s not the current meta. With the two-piece arena weapons being BiS on the back bar, people who don’t have their back bar rotations down pat will likely see DPS drops. Sets like Siroria and Spell Strategist, for example, carry over to the back bar, but they only last five seconds. If you’re spending more than that on the back bar, the effects drop off and you lose that bonus. A lot of people I’ve helped would do much better (and be much happier) just dropping the arena back bar and keeping two five-piece bonuses on both bars, but they’re so hesitant to deviate from what a handful of top players recommend.

Holy hell that was rambly…

MJallday · November 2019

Royaji wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

A dummy just teaches repetition , not how to play So spending 9 million hours a month in front of a dummy isn’t my (Anyone’s) idea of fun. Ultimately it teaches you very little - certainly not how to fight.

There isn’t a vet trial in the game where you stand still the entire fight. In addition you’d never use the same gear anyway - hence it’s ultimately pointless and just turns the numbers into a w***y waving contest . Even ppl that hit 95k on a dummy are probably closer to 50 in a trial so you Might as well Just put on trial gear and have fun And learn doing the real thing IMO

Here we go again... You know why people spend hours on a dummy? Because wether you like it or not, repetition is a way to mastery. On a dummy you can practice your rotation in a controlled environment to the point where it becomes muscle memory. And when you move to content you can focus all of your attention on movement, mechanics and all those things while still maintaining your rotation. People who spend time on a dummy can do both, its the "f*ck the dummy" guys who are either mopping the floor or are doing mighty 10k DPS for most of the fight

It's not a hard concept. It actually applies to a lot of things in life. From the most intense things like marksmanship basics which are learned at the range, with zero movement, but are stilll pretty darn valuable in a war zone. To the mundane skills like playing on a guitar or typing on a keyboard. The actual process might not be fun. But the feeling that you are getting closer to mastering something is a very enjoyable thing for many people.

You are also quite misinformed. There is little reason to use some other gear than your trial gear when you are practicing on a dummy. 70-80k DPS is also pretty common in trials. Even in places like vSS hardmodes. Check esologs, you'll be surprised. And really good players are hitting 90-100k in trials as well. You might be surprised how many of the trial fights can actuallly be transformed into a big dummy parse.

but this simply isnt true is it?

very few people who post DPS tests use anything other than cheese gear, blue food and 0 shields and self heals. id have an ounce of respect if those people are getting 100k on this patch with that on - but the fact is, they are not - not even on the last patch. everyone i know that was getting 100k was cheesing it - and thats full end game players.

if you can post an 100k parse on this patch showing a character using yellow or purple food, with a sheild and self heal slotted - and trial gear - which is what most people would run in a trial - then i will apologise to you until then.. i maintain - cheese parses on dummys are useless - because whilst you may learn "mussle memory" for your rotation - it becomes completely useless when you have to break rotation to block, sheild or move.

Casul · November 2019

MJallday wrote: »

but this simply isnt true is it?

very few people who post DPS tests use anything other than cheese gear, blue food and 0 shields and self heals. id have an ounce of respect if those people are getting 100k on this patch with that on - but the fact is, they are not - not even on the last patch. everyone i know that was getting 100k was cheesing it - and thats full end game players.

if you can post an 100k parse on this patch showing a character using yellow or purple food, with a sheild and self heal slotted - and trial gear - which is what most people would run in a trial - then i will apologise to you until then.. i maintain - cheese parses on dummys are useless - because whilst you may learn "mussle memory" for your rotation - it becomes completely useless when you have to break rotation to block, sheild or move.

Getting the point where your rotation is muscle memory is the reason people practice. Most people starting out stutter when they mess up a rotation. Then it gets much worst then it needs to be had they just continued the rotation. Once you just hit the buttons instinctively you can blend your rotation into a real fight more easily.

T3hasiangod · November 2019

MJallday wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

A dummy just teaches repetition , not how to play So spending 9 million hours a month in front of a dummy isn’t my (Anyone’s) idea of fun. Ultimately it teaches you very little - certainly not how to fight.

There isn’t a vet trial in the game where you stand still the entire fight. In addition you’d never use the same gear anyway - hence it’s ultimately pointless and just turns the numbers into a w***y waving contest . Even ppl that hit 95k on a dummy are probably closer to 50 in a trial so you Might as well Just put on trial gear and have fun And learn doing the real thing IMO

Here we go again... You know why people spend hours on a dummy? Because wether you like it or not, repetition is a way to mastery. On a dummy you can practice your rotation in a controlled environment to the point where it becomes muscle memory. And when you move to content you can focus all of your attention on movement, mechanics and all those things while still maintaining your rotation. People who spend time on a dummy can do both, its the "f*ck the dummy" guys who are either mopping the floor or are doing mighty 10k DPS for most of the fight

It's not a hard concept. It actually applies to a lot of things in life. From the most intense things like marksmanship basics which are learned at the range, with zero movement, but are stilll pretty darn valuable in a war zone. To the mundane skills like playing on a guitar or typing on a keyboard. The actual process might not be fun. But the feeling that you are getting closer to mastering something is a very enjoyable thing for many people.

You are also quite misinformed. There is little reason to use some other gear than your trial gear when you are practicing on a dummy. 70-80k DPS is also pretty common in trials. Even in places like vSS hardmodes. Check esologs, you'll be surprised. And really good players are hitting 90-100k in trials as well. You might be surprised how many of the trial fights can actuallly be transformed into a big dummy parse.

but this simply isnt true is it?

very few people who post DPS tests use anything other than cheese gear, blue food and 0 shields and self heals. id have an ounce of respect if those people are getting 100k on this patch with that on - but the fact is, they are not - not even on the last patch. everyone i know that was getting 100k was cheesing it - and thats full end game players.

if you can post an 100k parse on this patch showing a character using yellow or purple food, with a sheild and self heal slotted - and trial gear - which is what most people would run in a trial - then i will apologise to you until then.. i maintain - cheese parses on dummys are useless - because whilst you may learn "mussle memory" for your rotation - it becomes completely useless when you have to break rotation to block, sheild or move.

This again?

Just go through esologs. You'll easily find people doing over 100k DPS on some boss fights last patch. You can even look at their gear.

Here is a collection of people doing over 100k on the Foundation Stone Atro in vAA.

Another log from Scalebreaker with people doing close to 90k on Yolnahkriin HM.

And another almost 90k parses on Zhaj'hassa in Scalebreaker.

You can even do Dragonhold parses to see that people are easily doing close to or exceeding 80k DPS on these same fights (most are in vSS since that's what most top groups are progressing at this time).

So stop with the whole "dummy cheese" crap. It's wrong, disingenuous, and complete discounts and discredits those players who worked hard to get where they have been.

RogueShark · November 2019

MJallday wrote: »

very few people who post DPS tests use anything other than cheese gear, blue food and 0 shields and self heals. id have an ounce of respect if those people are getting 100k on this patch with that on - but the fact is, they are not - not even on the last patch. everyone i know that was getting 100k was cheesing it - and thats full end game players.

if you can post an 100k parse on this patch showing a character using yellow or purple food, with a sheild and self heal slotted - and trial gear - which is what most people would run in a trial - then i will apologise to you until then.. i maintain - cheese parses on dummys are useless - because whilst you may learn "mussle memory" for your rotation - it becomes completely useless when you have to break rotation to block, sheild or move.

The ONLY reason parses matter or really exist is to demonstrate one's ability, in a perfect scenario, to showcase the best of the best of their rotation. It's standardized, across EVERY CLASS, on the iron atronach: everyone receives the same buffs, from worm's and hircine's and major fracture to minor berserk. It evens the playing field so that certain classes with self-buffs (like warden with minor berserk) don't have that "advantage" over other classes. It makes pretty much everything equal as far as buffs/debuffs go.

This is why it's common practice to use parse food and the best gear possible for parsing, because realistically EVERYONE also can have access to that (where not everyone will have access to a friend providing orbs, etc). You use the best of what you have to achieve the best that you can. Everyone is on the same playing field on equal footing. It makes comparing DPS for certain classes/builds easier, because everything is standard. "Cheesing" is part of parsing because everyone can do it and it puts everyone on the same level. I don't know how to stress that any harder.

The purpose of parsing is to build up muscle memory and to show what you can do with your class under specific circumstances. It doesn't always equate to being good in a raid environment, but parsing does serve a great purpose. That learning and muscle memory certainly DOES serve a purpose, even in non-static environments.

Kolzki · November 2019

RogueShark wrote: »

The purpose of parsing is to build up muscle memory and to show what you can do with your class under specific circumstances. It doesn't always equate to being good in a raid environment, but parsing does serve a great purpose. That learning and muscle memory certainly DOES serve a purpose, even in non-static environments.

This. And to compare builds and rotations. But definitely this.

Kalante · November 2019

Royaji wrote: »

Kalante wrote: »

I feel like the combat team is just balancing around organized teams rather than the entire player base as a whole. I heard some elitist say that the new 23m trial dummy is the new gold standard for parses, yea ok but not everyone is going to have those buffs that the trial dummy provides running 24/7 during a trial it's just unrealistic and the ones that can are just a handful of guilds.

You've entirely missed the point why iron atro is the gold standard. It is not about hitting the numbers you hit on dummy in a dungeon/trial. But about the dummy providing everyone with the exact same playing field. Everyone on the dummy has all the buffs. So everyone can do their absolute best on it. And then you can compare between those absolute best results without questions about fracture/breach, ele drain, class buffs and so on interfering with your tests.

Then they go to a real trial and wonder why their dps is not anywhere near the target dummy. DPS'ing the dummy with all the buffs in the world is not the same as a real fight with random players. How does that help the player base? Not everyone is in an MLG L77T guild, not everyone is the hodors, the mechanically challenged. It just a handful of guilds and Im tired of ZOS balancing the game around them as if everyone has that kind of organization. Yes they get all the buffs from a target dummy but not the rest of the player base and not everyone can afford the sustain loss due to it.

T3hasiangod · November 2019

Kalante wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Kalante wrote: »

I feel like the combat team is just balancing around organized teams rather than the entire player base as a whole. I heard some elitist say that the new 23m trial dummy is the new gold standard for parses, yea ok but not everyone is going to have those buffs that the trial dummy provides running 24/7 during a trial it's just unrealistic and the ones that can are just a handful of guilds.

You've entirely missed the point why iron atro is the gold standard. It is not about hitting the numbers you hit on dummy in a dungeon/trial. But about the dummy providing everyone with the exact same playing field. Everyone on the dummy has all the buffs. So everyone can do their absolute best on it. And then you can compare between those absolute best results without questions about fracture/breach, ele drain, class buffs and so on interfering with your tests.

Then go to a real trial and wonder why their dps is not anywhere near their target dummy dps. DPS'ing the dummy with all the buffs in the world is not the same as a real fight with random players. How does that help the player base? Not everyone is going to be hitting the numbers that they are hitting on the 23m trial dummy. That's just a handful of guilds.

You're fixating on DPS.

NONE OF US ARE SAYING THAT THE IRON ATRO IS THE GOLD STANDARD BECAUSE IT SHOWS YOUR TRUE DPS

Let's repeat that again.

NONE OF US ARE SAYING THAT THE IRON ATRO IS THE GOLD STANDARD BECAUSE IT SHOWS YOUR TRUE DPS

We are saying that the iron atro is the gold standard because it, well, standardizes parses across classes. With this, you can accurate compare yourself to the higher-end players and see exactly what's going wrong, all without worrying about whether it's due to a difference in buff or debuff uptimes.

I can take someone's iron atro parse and point out that their DoTs are dropping off too often, or that they need to work on their LA weaving, or that they need to maintain their source of Minor Force better. It eliminates the possibility that they did not have Major Fracture or other debuffs or buffs. While you could do this with 3m or 6m dummy parses, it is far easier to discern why people are not hitting as high on an iron atro.