"DPS is through the roof" thread part 2

IonicKai

By wearing the worst gear anyone would have (all white non-set gear) and having no CP you are at a point where the only thing left would be player skill. The fact that the OP is able to still pull better than a lot of players who are wearing set gear with CP allocated makes that point clear. By no means is this the perfect method of testing but it's near impossible to account for how bad someone's rotation can be. As an academic exercise I think it was the right way to show the difference gear and CP make because the control was that the OP's skill as a player didn't just magically change when they altered the setup. It was the only constant.

Edit: typo

Borat

MotokoHutt wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

NaomiHutt wrote: »

At the end of the day anyone can show stats on a screen, but if you want to prove you did them without aid of any kind you need to record yourself doing it with a camera that shows everything.

The keyboard and mouse or (controller if that's your thing) with the screen also in the same view.

Once you can do this then maybe people like myself will believe it can be done.

Like I said, I will be doing this, just to shut people up. I doubt it'll actually do anything, but at least everyone else can just point to that video and tell the naysayers "see, I told you so."

Please go ahead and do, but if I see some split screen separate cam BS and you not even shpwing the game load, you having addons, not showing what programs are in the background or you not using a default £5 keyboard and mouse. Then even I will call BS and I personally will tell everyone I know and any new players, and any guild member that your a faker lol. So you better do it right or don't do it at all. Lol

Omg what an idiot you are, if you think that people reaching 90k are cheating because of how difficult it is for you then you must think all olimpic athletes are cheaters. I would never bow down and show you proof, if you don't believe it who *** cares lol.

vesselwiththepestle

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Actually, player skill is part of what is being tested. When we eliminate the effect of gear AND eliminate the effect of CP, all that's left is player skill. If a player can zero his CP and use generic white gear and STILL get massive dps, then that indicates it's his (or her) SKILL that's producing the dps.

You need some other player to do the same tests under the same circumstances to show difference in player skill. It would help a lot to test on a dummy, as that offers a form of standardization and you don't have to count in that while killing a world boss you might get occasionally buffed or the world boss debuffed by other players just walking by...

Also you don't need to eliminiate CP and Gear, you just need to ensure the same Gear and CP on both players.

Additionally you need to factor in choice of skills, to do that both players should test different rotations, for example one like you use on your builds and another rotation based on meta builds.

Borat

MJallday wrote: »

A dummy just teaches repetition , not how to play So spending 9 million hours a month in front of a dummy isn’t my (Anyone’s) idea of fun. Ultimately it teaches you very little - certainly not how to fight.

There isn’t a vet trial in the game where you stand still the entire fight. In addition you’d never use the same gear anyway - hence it’s ultimately pointless and just turns the numbers into a w***y waving contest . Even ppl that hit 95k on a dummy are probably closer to 50 in a trial so you Might as well Just put on trial gear and have fun And learn doing the real thing IMO

Thanks for telling the world what is fun and what is not, now we don't have to keep wondering and we can just do whatever YOU feel fun /s

Bladerunner1

Outside of the long checklist of built-in game features that effect DPS, which can have a massive impact going from all the worst options to all the best options, the player skill aspect basically boils down how often you hit things over time and how well you keep up with one or more DOT skills, and whether you have one bar or two. Lately people are hitting almost the maximum possible damage by keeping up with one DOT skill. A back bar weapon can be proccing a berserker enchantment from an AOE DOT and buffing damage while on the front bar.

When you start the game fresh the game's tutorial instructs that the natural flow of battle is to hit when the opportunity arrives, then react to enemies to stay alive or exploit a situation. And this works perfectly for solo play. You may only be hitting things once every 3 seconds with a skill or a light attack, then a pause, then a skill. 1 attack every 3 seconds is 1/3 the damage over time of 1 attack every second.

Light attacks aren't as incredibly important as people make them out to be unless you play a class that requires them to deal decent damage. One light attack landing every second may only be 10-15% of a build, or 20%+ if you have the maelstrom staff, or maybe 25% with Relequen. But in other cases you really only need one light attack every several seconds to gain ultimate. You need to land one light attack faster than every 5 seconds with a bow equipped to keep up stacks of Hawk eye. Speedy light attacks help with Cloudrest sets. Spell strategist needs a light attack every 5 seconds. Weapon skills can proc enchantments just fine in the place of light attacks. Using another skill right after the previous skill will cancel out the animation just as effectively as a light attack. Just try it. Endless hail is the max case, it seems to take a while longer if you're waiting on a light attack to land after using the skill, however it's just a blip if you forgo the light attack and cast the next skill in a rotation.

If you have played this game for an extended period of time, practiced a very long time, and still struggle to land light attacks between skills to the point where you hit an enemy with a skill every 1.3+ seconds, then perhaps try something other than light attack weaving. You may be gimping yourself in a big way. Perhaps don't play a Nightblade for PVE, perhaps try something other than a bow. Pick out a rotation on some other class and build where you strategically use enough light attacks to get your ultimate Regen up or keep hawk eye stacks, or spell strategist procs, etc.

IonicKai

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Actually, player skill is part of what is being tested. When we eliminate the effect of gear AND eliminate the effect of CP, all that's left is player skill. If a player can zero his CP and use generic white gear and STILL get massive dps, then that indicates it's his (or her) SKILL that's producing the dps.

You need some other player to do the same tests under the same circumstances to show difference in player skill. It would help a lot to test on a dummy, as that offers a form of standardization and you don't have to count in that while killing a world boss you might get occasionally buffed or the world boss debuffed by other players just walking by...

Also you don't need to eliminiate CP and Gear, you just need to ensure the same Gear and CP on both players.

Additionally you need to factor in choice of skills, to do that both players should test different rotations, for example one like you use on your builds and another rotation based on meta builds.

A test on player skill should be done where gear, buffs, debuffs, CP, and skill setup are off the table. Ideally you would have players of various skill levels go into PTS and all attempt at least the static version of a meta rotation in the same gear, CP, Mundus, etc against the 21mil. This is about as equalized as it can get. Each player would need to parse 3-5 times so you could get and average. The problem would be finding people to do this and more importantly correctly identifying players of varied skill level. This would make it so that skill is the only difference but it's an impractical test.

Honestly the practical way now is to examine parses against the 21 mil and compare combat metrics (something not possible on console). You can roughly factor in the difference of gear and CP if a highly skilled player equips the same setup as the person being examined and does a parse. This again is likely too much work but would be an option.

SidraWillowsky

Yeahhhh I didn't mean for this to be a "gear carries you!!!11" thread.

TAG mentioned this, but in case this is at all, helpful, I did some more testing, mostly to show the diminishing returns so people don't think you need BiS gear to pull the DPS necessary to do 99% of game content. I did several 3 mil parses with each setup. No vMA staff unless noted.

Burning Spellweave, Mother's Sorrow, Valkyn Skoria: 39k
Julianos, Mother's Sorrow, Grothdarr: 38k
Julianos, Spell Strategist, Grothdarr: 40k (I thought I hit 42k with this setup the other day, but wasn't able to get that)
Mother's Sorrow, Spell Strategist, Grothdarr: 42k. This setup netted me the highest DPS- I actually like Grothdarr more than Skoria at this point, which is nice since it's a lot easier to get (Vaults of Madness vs. CoA II)

So, by using gear that's pretty easy to get (I'd suggest Spell Strat weaps, Mother's Sorrow jewels [since you can get those from Deshaan dolmens], and then 3x Spell Strat and 2x MS body to minimize costs, since Mother's Sorrow inferno staves are insanely expensive), I was able to go from 25k with shite gear to 42k, which is a 68% increase.

Adding Zaan got me to about 44k using Spell Strat and Mother's Sorrow. 4.8% above the previous setup
Adding the vMA staff to the above got 46k. 4.5% above the previous setup
Lastly, perfected Siroria instead of MS got me to the 50k mark. 8.7% above the previous

tl;dr the biggest gear-related jump comes from having decent gear. BiS gear adds 19% to that, but if you're not trying to do the hardest content in the game, you don't need that anyway. So if you take numbers from using easily-obtainable sets and compare to BiS, you see a 19% increase in DPS.

kringled_1

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Yeahhhh I didn't mean for this to be a "gear carries you!!!11" thread.

tl;dr the biggest gear-related jump comes from having decent gear. BiS gear adds 19% to that, but if you're not trying to do the hardest content in the game, you don't need that anyway. So if you take numbers from using easily-obtainable sets and compare to BiS, you see a 19% increase in DPS.

Thank you for both the initial testing and this. Your conclusion here is what I think most people mean when they say gear isn't a big deal, it's that small difference between decent easily acquired gear and Bis.

Heatnix90

MJallday wrote: »

A dummy just teaches repetition , not how to play So spending 9 million hours a month in front of a dummy isn’t my (Anyone’s) idea of fun. Ultimately it teaches you very little - certainly not how to fight.

There isn’t a vet trial in the game where you stand still the entire fight. In addition you’d never use the same gear anyway - hence it’s ultimately pointless and just turns the numbers into a w***y waving contest . Even ppl that hit 95k on a dummy are probably closer to 50 in a trial so you Might as well Just put on trial gear and have fun And learn doing the real thing IMO

No one tell this man about the 80k+ Mantikora/Zhjassa parses

p00tx

Lady_Linux wrote: »

the bottom line is people with high dps think its them. The reality is it isn't them, it's the gear, cp, and pots and what you bring to the table is really not nearly so much as you think it is.

these epeen posts are funny to me.

Then why is it that someone (multiple people actually) with my exact gear set-up, exact CP, and using my exact parse with accompanying video still can't hit my numbers? Yes, your gear does make quite a bit of difference (as it should, given that the higher you go, the better gear gear you should have access to to complete even more difficult content), but if someone were less adept at parsing, and wearing all white base gear, what do you think they'd be parsing? I'd hazard a guess that it'd be closer to 5k, if that. There is a baseline dps that is entirely dependent on acquired skill, and independent of gear choice. There is no one red herring, but many things that contribute to dps outcomes, and any attempts to single out one "culprit" are completely useless.

You want a real test? Compare these initial posted outcomes to a parse done by a mechanically unaware player with the same gearing parameters. Maybe a max CP roleplayer who doesn't parse and has no idea how to. Have them kill the 3m dummy with the usual dmg combos they would employ doing whatever it is that they do, and check those outcomes against the adept player's.

Heelie

Honestly what leads people to believe that players are trying to misslead them? Have they ever seen a top guild play? Watch Alcast VODS from his stream, now only on his youtube. And see the numbers live when he plays with Hodor

DjMuscleboy02

Why are you demanding a comparison between no gear and top gear? How does that begin to make sense? Obviously that would make a huge difference, that doesn't mean player skill doesn't play huge part.

But gear only gets you so far. For example, let's say that 100k is the "best gear" parse and 40k is the "white/no gear" parse from the same "elite" player. What do those results even prove? That 60k dps is given by gear and 40k by player skill? That's a very rudimentary interpretation of those results.

Rather, they should be interpreted like this. Assume the above, now do a parse in craftable gear that's available to anyone. Let's say that parse is 85k (Which is likely accurate as, in the case of Magic builds, you can easily make Julianos/NMA or something along those lines.) So now the gear is only giving a 15k damage increase over easily obtainable gear. So now let's enter a second player, less "elite." Let's say this player parses only 80k in "the best" gear setup and just 55k in the craftable setup. Would the gear now be a 25k damage increase?

My point is that player skill cannot be defined as the difference between no gear and the best gear, rather it should be the difference between one player's best available gear and another player's best available gear. There is a reason that some people cannot replicate parses of players on Youtube and it is not because the Youtuber's are cheating, hacking, macroing, etc.

Side Note: If you cannot animation cancel, it is you. I'm sorry but the game works the same for everyone. Unless there is something very wrong with your internet or console then you can animation cancel just the same as everyone. I have played competitively on every platform and even on multiple servers and never once have I had any issue with animation cancelling. Stop using your console as a crutch and just practice.

Royaji

Heatnix90 wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

A dummy just teaches repetition , not how to play So spending 9 million hours a month in front of a dummy isn’t my (Anyone’s) idea of fun. Ultimately it teaches you very little - certainly not how to fight.

There isn’t a vet trial in the game where you stand still the entire fight. In addition you’d never use the same gear anyway - hence it’s ultimately pointless and just turns the numbers into a w***y waving contest . Even ppl that hit 95k on a dummy are probably closer to 50 in a trial so you Might as well Just put on trial gear and have fun And learn doing the real thing IMO

No one tell this man about the 80k+ Mantikora/Zhjassa parses

Both T3hasiangod and I already did. Even found some 100k esologs for him. He just kinda disappeared after that...

T3hasiangod

Royaji wrote: »

Heatnix90 wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

A dummy just teaches repetition , not how to play So spending 9 million hours a month in front of a dummy isn’t my (Anyone’s) idea of fun. Ultimately it teaches you very little - certainly not how to fight.

There isn’t a vet trial in the game where you stand still the entire fight. In addition you’d never use the same gear anyway - hence it’s ultimately pointless and just turns the numbers into a w***y waving contest . Even ppl that hit 95k on a dummy are probably closer to 50 in a trial so you Might as well Just put on trial gear and have fun And learn doing the real thing IMO

No one tell this man about the 80k+ Mantikora/Zhjassa parses

Both T3hasiangod and I already did. Even found some 100k esologs for him. He just kinda disappeared after that...

I didn't see a reason to continue responding to this thread, considering how people just keep shifting goalposts and denying evidence that's laid in front of them.

But no matter, I'm planning on releasing videos that effectively clears up any misinformation and misconceptions in this thread.

Royaji

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Heatnix90 wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

A dummy just teaches repetition , not how to play So spending 9 million hours a month in front of a dummy isn’t my (Anyone’s) idea of fun. Ultimately it teaches you very little - certainly not how to fight.

There isn’t a vet trial in the game where you stand still the entire fight. In addition you’d never use the same gear anyway - hence it’s ultimately pointless and just turns the numbers into a w***y waving contest . Even ppl that hit 95k on a dummy are probably closer to 50 in a trial so you Might as well Just put on trial gear and have fun And learn doing the real thing IMO

No one tell this man about the 80k+ Mantikora/Zhjassa parses

Both T3hasiangod and I already did. Even found some 100k esologs for him. He just kinda disappeared after that...

I didn't see a reason to continue responding to this thread, considering how people just keep shifting goalposts and denying evidence that's laid in front of them.

But no matter, I'm planning on releasing videos that effectively clears up any misinformation and misconceptions in this thread.

I might have worded it a bit confusingly. I was talking about the guy disappearing after we've linked those logs. Not you.

P.S.: I didn't really doubt that you will make those videos at same point.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Lady_Linux wrote: »

the bottom line is people with high dps think its them. The reality is it isn't them, it's the gear, cp, and pots and what you bring to the table is really not nearly so much as you think it is.

these epeen posts are funny to me.

What a load of nonsense. Skill (the ability to execute a rotation) is still the most important part of the DPS formula. Does gear and CP matter? Of course it does, but even this test is trying to remove that as a variable. This test isn't designed to show the impact of player skill, that is kind of the point. For that you need identical gear and different players. This test is performed by at least a decent player. A LA ratio of .9/sec is pretty good. Certainly not earth shattering, but I would bet 95% of the player base is below that.

The reality is that getting decent gear and making a few spell pots is trivial in this game. If that was all it took for decent DPS, then group-finder probably wouldnt be such a nightmare. Anyone can copy an alcast build. Not everyone can execute a dynamic rotation with a good weave.

I have a few problems with this test. To go from trial gear to no set bonuses whatsoever is a pretty big leap. Of course it's going to cut your damage by a lot and lead to misunderstanding of the data. I think showing the difference between purple crafted gear and gold trial gear is much more telling. Sure min/maxing to the nth degree is going to move the needle, but good players can pull plenty of damage in purple Julianos for example.

I also question the use of a 3 million health dummy, but that is not a huge problem. The bigger issue of course is that if you dont have decent gear and CP, you wont be able to sustain anything else, so I understand why it was used.

MrGhosty

MasterSpatula wrote: »

While a lot of people have been like, "I can't believe how high the percentage of damage gear/CP/pots are," I'm like, "I can't believe how low they are."

Speaking as someone who's had physical therapy for poor coordination, as someone who can't even hit the intended buttons consistently much less hit them in a precise order in precise timing, it's pretty discouraging to me how much the player's manual dexterity matters in what's theoretically an RPG.

With the same gear and abilities used in the same order, one player might hit double or triple the DPS of the other based entirely on precise timing. I get that a lot of players think that's a positive. I just find it disheartening.

I'm not sure if this will help but I have found a templar build that is meant for soloing content, doesn't require a ton of precise ke

Vahrokh wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

the only thing I truly do not understand - and this is coming from a guy who is retired and has no commitments, and thus makes his own hours for sleeping, eating and playing games, any time, day or night - WHY??????

I would not spend Half the time people here are, worrying that their DPS is "too low" (what does that even mean? If you can beat the monster your DPS should be considered just fine )and therefore spend hours on end, - using white bland gear, then using no CPs, then using CPs, then fighting left handed, then with one hand tied behind their back....

What ever happened to playing the game because it is FUN to play? When did the game become just a convoluted algebra problem?

Wait until you decide to play social content (what MMOs are really about). If you decide to stop PUGging in normal trials, you are immediately asked to pass a "DPS check" test with a guild officer checking how well you perform.

In one of my guilds, if you parse less than 70k DPS (magicka and stamina alike) you are simply booted.
And no, it's not an hard core guild at all, just one of many. Even if you find a vet guild "only" demanding 50k DPS, you still have to deliver those 50k DPS or you are out.

There's nothing inherently wrong with people setting standards for guild membership. If that bothers you, you're in the wrong guild. It's no different than some trading guilds requiring X amount in sales plus fees every week/month whatever. Neither of those guilds are my cup of tea, but I don't begrudge their existence.

The thread has derailed somewhat, but I think it's worth pointing out that there isn't one best part of the dps pie that players can focus on to be their "best". In the past four months since being gone for years, I've gone from maybe 5k dps to 15k to 20k (this is on a 6mil dummy because I prefer to see my own personal raw numbers). What I have found is that while there is certainly a top skill ceiling, you can play around in the middle to accommodate your personal playstyle and lead to consistent numbers that you might not get by using bis gear. Seeing other people's parse numbers really only provides me with a "best case scenario with ideal conditions and peak skill performance" I don't think someone who puts those numbers down alone is amazing, but it cannot be said enough that the folks who pull those numbers and then take the time to explain how/why they got them should be supported and thanked.

So for the folks taking the time out to test things in this thread, and the other people posting their feedback/insights I just want to say thank you.

Nyladreas

MasterSpatula wrote: »

While a lot of people have been like, "I can't believe how high the percentage of damage gear/CP/pots are," I'm like, "I can't believe how low they are."

Speaking as someone who's had physical therapy for poor coordination, as someone who can't even hit the intended buttons consistently much less hit them in a precise order in precise timing, it's pretty discouraging to me how much the player's manual dexterity matters in what's theoretically an RPG.

With the same gear and abilities used in the same order, one player might hit double or triple the DPS of the other based entirely on precise timing. I get that a lot of players think that's a positive. I just find it disheartening.

I think there's more behind positive view on it than just "action gameplay". Actually I know there is. Just tired of talking about it at this point.

Huyen

ApostateHobo wrote: »

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

ApostateHobo wrote: »

Even using a build pretty similar (often just using different sets) to someone that pulls dps in the 60-100k range, I still fall into the 10-40k range no matter how much I try to raise it. Part of this problem with the gap between average and top tier players I think is animation canceling because it just doesn't work for me, or a lot of other players.

Yes, you actually have to learn to do it and it works different for the different types of weapons. If you want some rotations to really work as good, you need to understand how light attack weaving works with each individual skill and you need to test, when there is the best moment in the animation, to start the next attack. For example Uppercut, there is a point in the animation where the sword is high above the head. You can THEN start a light attack and next skill - but if you don't, the animation completes and you lose time, resulting finally in less skills per minute than some other player.

Elemental Weapon from Psijic order is a good skill to practice basic weaving.

Also it needs basic dexterity to be physically able to let the mouse button go and instantly hit a skill button after, and then keep the rhythm while respecting those skills which "fall out of rhythm".

In my opinion there definitely are differences in individual human abilities to "light attack weave", practice and increasing your knowledge on the game can bring you only to your own personal skill cap. Also some classes and rotations might be more to your advantage than others - for example I am doing more DPS on my Stamina DK main (75k) than on Stamina Sorcerer (72k) or Stamina Necromancer (71k), although according to meta knowledge I should do most dps on my Necro...

Also there are different techniques how to light attack weave:
- the button smasher who throws in the skill
- the player who put light attacks on his mouse wheel
- the player who makes a single light attack + skill use in a steady rhythm
It seems those different techniques work differently well for different players. For example, I can't hit the light attack mouse button repeatedly fast AND weave in the skills in between. It doesn't work for me. So I play in a steady rhythm - light attack - skill - break - light attack - skill - break. da-da- --- da-da- --- da-da- --- and so on.

Something tells me you didn't read the part where I said animation cancelling does not work for me aside from bar swapping which often locks up my bars to where I can't attack or use skills. I can weave light attacks between skills no problem, unless the game decides my light attack won't go off. Also I'm on console not pc no mouse to let go of here. I've watched a lot of people parsing on dummies, I know HOW they do it, but the game just doesn't behave well enough for me to be able to perform similarly. Not sure why since I have great internet and I'm not in the middle of nowhere, but it just doesn't. All the people I've seen are also on pc, so there might be some kind of input delay difference between the two or ps4 just has crap performance in general.

I know you're trying to help, but it's kinda lame when people don't pay attention to what you wrote and treat you like you don't know anything. I'm not some noob player that just started. I've been playing the game for a little over 2 years, max cp, gone through vma, and I can solo every normal dungeon that doesn't require others for a group mechanic no problem. I just can't manage to hit super high numbers on target dummies. Trust me I've tried. Practiced many times on the iron atro recently, and the highest I managed was 33k on my petsorc. Might be able to hit higher numbers on some of my other characters, but who knows.

My whole point is though that just because you and others can reach these numbers, doesn't mean everyone else can. Which really sucks for the people that would like to get into endgame or vet content, but can't because the bar is set so high. It's awesome that your particular guild is welcoming of beginners and others that don't pull top tier damage, but it seems guilds like that are few and far between. Kinda makes me want to start a guild for more casual/average players to do trials and vet dungeons, but I tend to play at pretty bizarre hours so I don't think that'd go very well lol

The stuff you describe is the main reason that I went tank / healer on my characters. I only switch to dps when I solo stuff.

Grianasteri

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

A lot of people not getting the point, even though it's been reiterated a couple of times.

We're not really interested in WHAT your dps is. We're trying to tease apart where it's coming from. How much of your damage is coming from gear? How much from CP? Is it the buffs or debuffs that contribute the most to dps?

This is meant to help inform players who are trying to improve their dps by giving them some idea where to focus their efforts. If gear is the lion's share of the dps, then improving gear should be the focus. If it's CP, then getting that up should be the focus. If it's more about buffs or debuffs, then we would be better off KNOWING that.

I'll run the tests myself so everyone can have a laugh, and so we can see where MY minimal damage is coming from.

See here. It's already been explained: a large majority comes from player skill.

I think most people, bar complete fruit loops, are going to agree with and understand the importance of player skill.

What I find frustrating is people glossing over the fact around 30% of dps can come from gear alone. THAT. IS. MASSIVE. Especially when the vast majority of players are not running around in bis or optimised gear, or using efficient rotations with LA weaving.

So often people who parse among the top 10 - 15%, can be found screaming at the average player to "git gud" and "l2p", because they only do 15 - 20k dps. Low and behold, turns out just by getting bis gear and golding it, there could be a 30% uplift in dps.

When I got into optimising my play some time ago now, I moved my gear from blue/purple up to gold, my dps increased by thousands. Fact.

For average players, i.e the vast majority of the player base, this matter is significant. For end gamers, they are likely to do "good" dps (in the context of the average player) regardless of what gear they are in or what colour it is.

TheGreatBlackBear

How do you all play on PC with metrics, buff trackers dot trackers and all kinds of stuff to guide you and make learning a rotation easier, suck so much? You guys have so many tools at your disposal. It's heartbreaking that they're not being taken advantage of.

b95fister

Grianasteri wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

A lot of people not getting the point, even though it's been reiterated a couple of times.

We're not really interested in WHAT your dps is. We're trying to tease apart where it's coming from. How much of your damage is coming from gear? How much from CP? Is it the buffs or debuffs that contribute the most to dps?

This is meant to help inform players who are trying to improve their dps by giving them some idea where to focus their efforts. If gear is the lion's share of the dps, then improving gear should be the focus. If it's CP, then getting that up should be the focus. If it's more about buffs or debuffs, then we would be better off KNOWING that.

I'll run the tests myself so everyone can have a laugh, and so we can see where MY minimal damage is coming from.

See here. It's already been explained: a large majority comes from player skill.

I think most people, bar complete fruit loops, are going to agree with and understand the importance of player skill.

What I find frustrating is people glossing over the fact around 30% of dps can come from gear alone. THAT. IS. MASSIVE. Especially when the vast majority of players are not running around in bis or optimised gear, or using efficient rotations with LA weaving.

So often people who parse among the top 10 - 15%, can be found screaming at the average player to "git gud" and "l2p", because they only do 15 - 20k dps. Low and behold, turns out just by getting bis gear and golding it, there could be a 30% uplift in dps.

When I got into optimising my play some time ago now, I moved my gear from blue/purple up to gold, my dps increased by thousands. Fact.

For average players, i.e the vast majority of the player base, this matter is significant. For end gamers, they are likely to do "good" dps (in the context of the average player) regardless of what gear they are in or what colour it is.

This is where you are wrong and try to use math to prove yourself less wrong....

That 30% increase from ‘gear alone’ is a function of GEAR and PLAYER skill. A bad player is BiS gear from whatever gear there they are wearing will not improve their dps by 30%.


Let’s say it did though just by putting on BiS gear that 15-20k dps gets what (basic math time)

15,000 x 1.3. = 19500 (wow MASSIVE dps!)

20,000 x 1.3. = 26,000 ( wow this is truly MASSIVE dps)

You see. If a player want to be good they have to get better its as simple as that

TLDR 30% of a low number is still a low number. FWIW. I only do 40k to a 3mil with unperfected FG and New moon with sustain monster set.

By your math/explanation if I only had perfected FG I be doing 52k!!!!!

ApostateHobo

Huyen wrote: »

ApostateHobo wrote: »

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

ApostateHobo wrote: »

Even using a build pretty similar (often just using different sets) to someone that pulls dps in the 60-100k range, I still fall into the 10-40k range no matter how much I try to raise it. Part of this problem with the gap between average and top tier players I think is animation canceling because it just doesn't work for me, or a lot of other players.

Yes, you actually have to learn to do it and it works different for the different types of weapons. If you want some rotations to really work as good, you need to understand how light attack weaving works with each individual skill and you need to test, when there is the best moment in the animation, to start the next attack. For example Uppercut, there is a point in the animation where the sword is high above the head. You can THEN start a light attack and next skill - but if you don't, the animation completes and you lose time, resulting finally in less skills per minute than some other player.

Elemental Weapon from Psijic order is a good skill to practice basic weaving.

Also it needs basic dexterity to be physically able to let the mouse button go and instantly hit a skill button after, and then keep the rhythm while respecting those skills which "fall out of rhythm".

In my opinion there definitely are differences in individual human abilities to "light attack weave", practice and increasing your knowledge on the game can bring you only to your own personal skill cap. Also some classes and rotations might be more to your advantage than others - for example I am doing more DPS on my Stamina DK main (75k) than on Stamina Sorcerer (72k) or Stamina Necromancer (71k), although according to meta knowledge I should do most dps on my Necro...

Also there are different techniques how to light attack weave:
- the button smasher who throws in the skill
- the player who put light attacks on his mouse wheel
- the player who makes a single light attack + skill use in a steady rhythm
It seems those different techniques work differently well for different players. For example, I can't hit the light attack mouse button repeatedly fast AND weave in the skills in between. It doesn't work for me. So I play in a steady rhythm - light attack - skill - break - light attack - skill - break. da-da- --- da-da- --- da-da- --- and so on.

Something tells me you didn't read the part where I said animation cancelling does not work for me aside from bar swapping which often locks up my bars to where I can't attack or use skills. I can weave light attacks between skills no problem, unless the game decides my light attack won't go off. Also I'm on console not pc no mouse to let go of here. I've watched a lot of people parsing on dummies, I know HOW they do it, but the game just doesn't behave well enough for me to be able to perform similarly. Not sure why since I have great internet and I'm not in the middle of nowhere, but it just doesn't. All the people I've seen are also on pc, so there might be some kind of input delay difference between the two or ps4 just has crap performance in general.

I know you're trying to help, but it's kinda lame when people don't pay attention to what you wrote and treat you like you don't know anything. I'm not some noob player that just started. I've been playing the game for a little over 2 years, max cp, gone through vma, and I can solo every normal dungeon that doesn't require others for a group mechanic no problem. I just can't manage to hit super high numbers on target dummies. Trust me I've tried. Practiced many times on the iron atro recently, and the highest I managed was 33k on my petsorc. Might be able to hit higher numbers on some of my other characters, but who knows.

My whole point is though that just because you and others can reach these numbers, doesn't mean everyone else can. Which really sucks for the people that would like to get into endgame or vet content, but can't because the bar is set so high. It's awesome that your particular guild is welcoming of beginners and others that don't pull top tier damage, but it seems guilds like that are few and far between. Kinda makes me want to start a guild for more casual/average players to do trials and vet dungeons, but I tend to play at pretty bizarre hours so I don't think that'd go very well lol

The stuff you describe is the main reason that I went tank / healer on my characters. I only switch to dps when I solo stuff.

Yeah I'd probably have to resort to healing if I wanted to get into trials or vet dlc dungeons. Not always fun being the healer though because you get dingbats that sprint ahead to a boss, die, then blame you for not healing them. Or they come into a dungeon with 10k health and wonder why they're getting one shot by a kwama lmao

asalemi

Is everyone forgetting this is a dam video game . Wow. Who cares honestly. People treat this like a job, its comical. A game is to release yourself from the stresses of the work day. At least that's what I use it for because I work and work long hours. As soon as a game turns into a job its trash time. Seems like a lot of you folks take this crap way to seriously.

TheGreatBlackBear

Asian posted his video. https://youtu.be/NQEflmqh9VU
Over to you low dps having people.

Runefang

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Asian posted his video. https://youtu.be/NQEflmqh9VU
Over to you low dps having people.

The irony is that even his dps isn’t that great, no offense intended to him but plenty of others pull much higher. So if he was cheating to get fairly average end game dps numbers it’s a poor attempt.

But kudos for posting the video.

MartiniDaniels

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Asian posted his video. https://youtu.be/NQEflmqh9VU
Over to you low dps having people.

I guess everybody expected some piano play speed and will be shocked to see that it is about not how many buttons you press, but about when you press those buttons.

SidraWillowsky

asalemi wrote: »

Is everyone forgetting this is a dam video game . Wow. Who cares honestly. People treat this like a job, its comical. A game is to release yourself from the stresses of the work day. At least that's what I use it for because I work and work long hours. As soon as a game turns into a job its trash time. Seems like a lot of you folks take this crap way to seriously.

To all of you who keep saying this:



This is what some of us enjoy doing in game. I sincerely find working on DPS and testing builds fun. It's not stressful, it doesn't feel like work, it's not serious. How is my fun any less... legitimately enjoyable? Or something? Than whatever you do in game for fun?

And nice work TAG, interested to see what the macro-accusers have to say...

JinMori

The point of this thread seems to be about salty players who cannot get those numbers so call macro or cheating on anyone who can.

Same *** everywhere.

At the end of the day it's about envy, you see another person doing better than you in something, and you are salty about it, just like how people are salty about the rich, just on a smaller level.

Dismiss it all you want, but it's the truth, because if you really didn't care at all, you wouldn't be here, or, you would practice and learn it yourself, so you can be that player.

Jem_Kindheart

I don't think dps is through the roof, been having a bad run of luck lately in pug dungeons with a lot of dps doing 2k - 8k, with 15k being nice to see. Our really good raiders in closed teams are doing 45k-70k and that is outstanding. I dps'ed a couple years and still do 35k-40k, that's with practicing a parse like once a month mayyyyybe.

Mostly just heal now, so I have lots of time watching dps'es struggle... And they're struggling right now. I have a multifold theory on this:
+ the game is doing a *** poor job teaching, not just dps but teaching everything. See the tank in vDoM who died every time I stopped only healing him while I bar swapped for 1.5 seconds to drop buffs/debuffs. Lol. Please block once in awhile, and make a tiny, tiny effort to move out of the red which is lethal in vet dlc.
+ these xp boost events allows brand new players to very quickly level to cp300 then 500 and above without ever actually having to learn any skill or gear. Then they end up in vet Moongrave doing 2k.
+ the whole system relies on other players and guilds to be the teachers of the upcoming players, which is fine, I do a ton of training as do my guilds. But the game could do a lot, lot better too.
+ the constant and very large / frequent changes do indeed lower dps ceiling as intended, but also really hurt and confuse mid tier players almost up to 20k, may be on the path to 30k soon, and now are back to 15k and confused. Those just hitting their first 10k are then moreso damaged.