"DPS is through the roof" thread part 2

vesselwiththepestle

Grianasteri wrote: »

An average player can have trash sets on, or incomplete, un-optimised sets etc, as I described earlier, then switch to bis optimised gear and see an uplift of thousands in dps. This is just a fact and I have no idea why so many high dps players have an issue with it being a fact.

Many average players already have decent gear, sets like Spriggan's, Mother's sorrow but lightning instead of inferno staff, Hunding's Rage, Julianos, etc.

Instead of investing a small amount of time into l2p and getting huge increases in damage, they often focus on getting slightly better damage by farming better gear in a huge amount of time.

Most endgame content creators offer beginner setups etc. for their builds, some even CP setups if you are well below the cap. If an average player doesn't even have gear similar to that, then of course, they should get some valid gear first.

Some gear choices are also tricky. Relequen gives a lot on dummy parses and average players might be tricked into thinking that Relequen would be a good choice for running dungeons.

Similar skill choices. Just recently I was playing with someone, who used Elemental Weapon as spammable because his build said so. I checked Eso Logs and told him, that 2 out of 3 Elemental Weapon casts didn't deal any damage, because his Light Attack Weaving was bad. He switched to another spammable and his dps went up a few k instantly, although "in theory" Elemental Weapon would be the stronger skill...

If you only focus on gear, you are limiting yourself a lot.

Grianasteri

Ramber wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Asian posted his video. https://youtu.be/NQEflmqh9VU
Over to you low dps having people.

Wonderful and ty for trying to get rid of some of the doubters asain, this was never a question for me. for me and people i play with its the difference between live and pts. Could you please do one on Live in a house lol? i only parse on live and depending on the time of day i may not be able to get injections to proc(i have to rehit the key with a 300mb DL, 8 ping internet speed) or half my light attacks to go off. Live is a completely different animal these days from PTS. so much so we don't even use the trials dummy as a reflection of our DPS because, our numbers are often 20k less then yours and we too have spent hours a day for years practicing. When we use 3/6 mill dummies we are at the top of the food chain but with trials dummies we just don't know where the extra deeps comes from. thanks either way!

Absolutely, any parse not on live in a normal house seems sub optimal in terms of accuracy. Although I imagine for high skill players it will make less difference and not be so much of an issue.

Personally the lag I experience in my houses, depending on the time of day and/or the location it is in, can be really quite variable and can impact my parses by thousands. When the lag is poor I experience skills and LA not firing and that messes with the rotation hugely, potions not firing either. It all makes a difference.

PS, I cannot quite believe the number of add ons PC players benefit from, its incredible. Console players get a really rough deal.

PPS, I have never thought good content creators like th3asiangod used macros.
.

Grianasteri

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

Grianasteri wrote: »

An average player can have trash sets on, or incomplete, un-optimised sets etc, as I described earlier, then switch to bis optimised gear and see an uplift of thousands in dps. This is just a fact and I have no idea why so many high dps players have an issue with it being a fact.

Many average players already have decent gear, sets like Spriggan's, Mother's sorrow but lightning instead of inferno staff, Hunding's Rage, Julianos, etc.

Instead of investing a small amount of time into l2p and getting huge increases in damage, they often focus on getting slightly better damage by farming better gear in a huge amount of time.

Most endgame content creators offer beginner setups etc. for their builds, some even CP setups if you are well below the cap. If an average player doesn't even have gear similar to that, then of course, they should get some valid gear first.

Some gear choices are also tricky. Relequen gives a lot on dummy parses and average players might be tricked into thinking that Relequen would be a good choice for running dungeons.

Similar skill choices. Just recently I was playing with someone, who used Elemental Weapon as spammable because his build said so. I checked Eso Logs and told him, that 2 out of 3 Elemental Weapon casts didn't deal any damage, because his Light Attack Weaving was bad. He switched to another spammable and his dps went up a few k instantly, although "in theory" Elemental Weapon would be the stronger skill...

If you only focus on gear, you are limiting yourself a lot.

I agree with pretty much everything you have said. None of which of course invalidates what I have said on the matter in the past.

Player skill is vital. Experience and practice are vital. Gear sets and optimisation of level, enchants, traits etc are also important factors. CPs are an important factor. It is all one big melting pot of variables. What I take exception to is people trying to pretend that gear or CPs doesnt make much difference, when it does, it can make a huge difference.

*******

While I am hear I want to tell another of my stories which is relevant to the matter at hand (this is not directed at vesselwiththepestle, its just a general comment). Ignore if you dont like walls of text, I like writing and I like being expressive, deal with it or ignore - I have spoilered it for those uninterested.

I was chatting to a guildie who had expressed a wish to take part in veteran DLC dungeons we were going to run. The guildie was asked about their readiness for vet DLC dungeons and what their DPS was like? They responded that they did not know what their dps was. So they were directed to a house where a 3m dummy was available and it was explained how to go about parsing. Their dps after a few tries was 8500. Clearly there was an opportunity here to help improve dps drastically. After some questions the following became apparent.

They were in the region of 200 CPs.
Magica Templar, Argonian.
They were not wearing a monster set.
They were wearing 2 full 5 piece sets, these were Spriggans (penetration) and Warlock (sustain).
They were not light attack weaving.

To me, in my experience, this is the perfect example of the average ESO player. They enjoy ESO and invest a fair amount of time in the game. They enjoy questing overland, normal dungeons, world bosses with friends, fashion, housing etc. At some point many folk wish to experience veteran content and/or trials etc, this often prompts them to investigate their builds and game play with a view to improvement. They are often getting kicked or refused from content and receiving negative comments and treatment from more experienced players in group finder etc. At this point they are often eager and willing to learn, just as I was.

We made the following suggestions, in no particular order.

Change both 5 piece sets they were wearing, since these were highly sub optimal for someone looking to increase their dps. Sustain can come from elsewhere in the build, at least initially before we look at sustain if its an issue, and Spriggans is primarily a PVP focused set and not for magica.

We suggested someone could make Julianos for them as a starting point.
We suggested this could be paired with an easily obtainable set such as Mothers Sorrow, or Crafty Alfiq etc.
We suggested that they obtained a monster set, such as Zaan or Grothdarr.
We suggested they race change to Breton (for the sustain), or high elf if they were comfortable with sustain.
We suggested they look at a guide to light attack weaving and directed them to a couple of good ones.

It turned out the guildie already had a set of Mothers Sorrow, and already had a set of Grothdaar. As I mentioned, clearly this was someone who enjoyed ESO and was spending a decent amount of time on the game in a casual manner. They had just not had the opportunity or cause to investigate their build further or to seek help until now.

Aaanyway, long story short, I did not get the numbers but they were over the moon with the results, their dps has drastically improved simply by putting Julianos, Mothers Sorrow and Grothdarr on and they were looking forward to further help and improvement. We had not even discussed gear optimisation, CP allocation or skill selection/rotation, or helped add light attack weaving.

I wished to goodness I had had someone willing to take the time and effort to explain some basics to me at a much earlier stage. I wish I had not instead experienced elitists telling me how rubbish I was, l2p, get gud, kicking me from groups and laughing at me.

Wall of text ends.

MJallday

Grianasteri wrote: »

Ramber wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Asian posted his video. https://youtu.be/NQEflmqh9VU
Over to you low dps having people.

Wonderful and ty for trying to get rid of some of the doubters asain, this was never a question for me. for me and people i play with its the difference between live and pts. Could you please do one on Live in a house lol? i only parse on live and depending on the time of day i may not be able to get injections to proc(i have to rehit the key with a 300mb DL, 8 ping internet speed) or half my light attacks to go off. Live is a completely different animal these days from PTS. so much so we don't even use the trials dummy as a reflection of our DPS because, our numbers are often 20k less then yours and we too have spent hours a day for years practicing. When we use 3/6 mill dummies we are at the top of the food chain but with trials dummies we just don't know where the extra deeps comes from. thanks either way!

Absolutely, any parse not on live in a normal house seems sub optimal in terms of accuracy. Although I imagine for high skill players it will make less difference and not be so much of an issue.

Personally the lag I experience in my houses, depending on the time of day and/or the location it is in, can be really quite variable and can impact my parses by thousands. When the lag is poor I experience skills and LA not firing and that messes with the rotation hugely, potions not firing either. It all makes a difference.

PS, I cannot quite believe the number of add ons PC players benefit from, its incredible. Console players get a really rough deal.

PPS, I have never thought good content creators like th3asiangod used macros.
.

I’m sure a lot of pc players don’t use macros. But some do.

Personally, I’d love to see some of the names mentioned on here try to hit 100k on a console. Right now , I bet there is fewer than 5 people that could do it in the world.

My point was that a dummy does not realistically represent a trial boss, and that you wouldn’t necessarily run the same gear in a trial as a dummy and get the same 100k result - And definitely not this patch.

I stand 100% behind this statement, so to the poster who was awaiting “an apology “ you’ll still be waiting I’m afraid

Aurielle

T3hasiangod wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

The PC guys might not get this. On console, the game has not felt right for a long time. There’s a noticeable delay with every action you do. Light attacks refuse to go off. Skills spit spat and stutter. The game doesn’t feel fluid, or reactive. It’s slow, clunky and predictably unpredictable or just plain bad.

Players have tried using a house with nothing in it to minimize all the lag and performance shortcomings of the game.

Then when you get into content, it all goes out the window. Light attack rotations don’t reflect your character animations and that is not necessarily animation cancelling, but I’d blame it more so on bad game performance. It just feels “off” Many times if that makes any sense.

You tap a button on a your controller and don’t see anything happen on screen til a second or two later it throws things off. And then only gets worse when you keep hammering more commands in. Could you imagine this kind of issue in guitar hero or rockband. It’s catastrophic and would completely wreck that type of game.


When I wrote the first “DPS is Through the roof” we were in DOT Meta. Dots were wildly over performing and I believe this made it much easier for many to reach higher damage then they had before; because you would set out dots working your way through both bars and by the time you came back to the first bar you just start over again. The timing didn't seem to matter so much. Just keep working a rotation front to back and anyone could do good damage.

That all went away with Dragonhold when Dots and AOE’s were massively nerffed. They’re still a component to good damage, but there needs to be a good bit of direct damage. And there’s significantly more sustain issues to deal with as well.

If your light attacks aren’t going off right, You’re gonna have An exceptionally bad time with NightBlade and other classes are gonna suffer as well. I get this all the time. Whether it’s me being bad or the game being a steaming pile of doo is debatable. But the game’s responsiveness is definitely something the devs should be looking into imo.

And yet there are console DPS that are outparsing or matching some PC players...

In bare vanilla houses, likely well outside of prime time. What @kylewwefan stated is absolutely true; console performance over the past few months has been at an all-time low. In actual combat situations during dungeons/trials and PVP, the game is often highly unresponsive — even when playing with hardwired elite controllers to eliminate input lag on the user’s end. Skills, light attacks, bar swaps, and potions frequently fail to fire, necessitating repeated button mashing. This is not the case for any other major games on console that feature fast-paced combat. ESO’s performance on console is utter trash at present, which is why many of us have quit the game and moved on to games that work.

TheGreatBlackBear

@Aurielle please don't speak for all console players. I dunno about you guys but I'm on xbox na and we're just fine 9 raids out of 10. Groups at the highest level can and do progress titles like GH IR and TTT. I myself expect to have a third toon with TTT by mid-December. And I have a standard Xbox controller, I live outside of the United States and I use Wi-Fi. So please shut up and stop making excuses.

Aurielle

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

@Aurielle please don't speak for all console players. I dunno about you guys but I'm on xbox na and we're just fine 9 raids out of 10. Groups at the highest level can and do progress titles like GH IR and TTT. I myself expect to have a third toon with TTT by mid-December. And I have a standard Xbox controller, I live outside of the United States and I use Wi-Fi. So please shut up and stop making excuses.

*eyeroll*

So the literally hundreds of posts complaining about poor console performance come courtesy of people who are lying and just “making excuses” for poor DPS. It’s grand that you’re having no issues; many hundreds of us are, and that’s just the small number of us who post in these forums.

TheGreatBlackBear

So you actually believe that poor performance is a main factor stops people from achieving reasonable DPS? Not even even DPS needs for big trifecta achievement. Just the average person in a trial or dungeon. Lag makes them hit 20k to 25k? Is that what you're telling me? I

Aurielle

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

So you actually believe that poor performance is a main factor stops people from achieving reasonable DPS? Not even even DPS needs for big trifecta achievement. Just the average person in a trial or dungeon. Lag makes them hit 20k to 25k? Is that what you're telling me? I

No, I was simply confirming @kylewwefan ’s claim that in-game combat performance is frequently terrible and places limitations on what a lot of people can achieve in a live environment. It’s possible to PARSE high on console, absolutely, if you do so in an empty house outside of prime time. Poor performance in actual combat situations will, however, absolutely impact group performance and overall DPS in a live environment. Can’t pull 80k+ in a trial if you’re hit with a freaking loading screen out of the blue in the middle of a fight, or if you can’t barswap, or if you can’t use potions, or if your game randomly crashes — all problems that have contributed to the exodus of many a console player lately.

Again, it’s grand if you’re not having those problems, but do understand that many people are. You’re very lucky — enjoy it while you can.

vesselwiththepestle

MJallday wrote: »

My point was that a dummy does not realistically represent a trial boss, and that you wouldn’t necessarily run the same gear in a trial as a dummy and get the same 100k result - And definitely not this patch.

I stand 100% behind this statement, so to the poster who was awaiting “an apology “ you’ll still be waiting I’m afraid

You can go over to Eso Logs and have a look what players on PC are wearing in trials. Many post their trial logs for the public. Also there aren't many 100k parses around. Most of the one I have seen are below 90k. Could you link some of those 100k parses, maybe I can learn something from them.

Elwendryll

Stamina sorcerer, Khajiit, Lava Foot, Shadow Mundus, damage poison front, weapon damage enchant back (for all the parses)
I'd say I'm average for a progression trial player. (I cleared vSS HM)

On 21M

Relequen/Perfected Lokkestiiz + 1 Kra'gh + 1 Grundwulf + Maelstrom bow

With CP

No CP

On 3M

Relequen/Tzogvin + 2 Grundwulf + Maelstrom bow

With CP

No CP

White CP150 gear (no enchant) and weapons, 7 divine body, 3 robust jewelry, precise front, infused back (white quality enchant)

With CP

No CP

Interesting results.

SidraWillowsky

Elwendryll wrote: »

Stamina sorcerer, Khajiit, Lava Foot, Shadow Mundus, damage poison front, weapon damage enchant back (for all the parses)
I'd say I'm average for a progression trial player. (I cleared vSS HM)

On 21M

Relequen/Perfected Lokkestiiz + 1 Kra'gh + 1 Grundwulf + Maelstrom bow

With CP

No CP

On 3M

Relequen/Tzogvin + 2 Grundwulf + Maelstrom bow

With CP

No CP

White CP150 gear (no enchant) and weapons, 7 divine body, 3 robust jewelry, precise front, infused back (white quality enchant)

With CP

No CP

Interesting results.

DAAAAAAAAAMN. Thanks for doing this. I suspected that I'd be hovering at 10-12k DPS with no CP and white gear.

buttaface

Elwendryll wrote: »

Interesting results.

Very much so, thanks for posting that. I guess a rational conclusion would be to ~halve the damage in the various tets for less experienced players?

Elwendryll

buttaface wrote: »

Elwendryll wrote: »

Interesting results.

Very much so, thanks for posting that. I guess a rational conclusion would be to ~halve the damage in the various tets for less experienced players?

Let's take into account the fact that I use precise frontbar whereas sharpened would probably yield better results without CP.

Besides that, it's hard to tell what an average player could do.

These results are a comparison between the different setups for a fixed skill level (I did everything today in an hour).

TheGreatBlackBear

Note how the narrative of this thread has changed. First people couldn't do good dps because of their CP. Next, it was because they didn't have golded out perfected gear next there was the story that certain people only have good dps because they cheat/ use macros/modded controllers and after that, it was due to having a poor connection or the game crashing. Who wants to take wagers for the next excuse to pop up?

Elwendryll

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Elwendryll wrote: »

Stamina sorcerer, Khajiit, Lava Foot, Shadow Mundus, damage poison front, weapon damage enchant back (for all the parses)
I'd say I'm average for a progression trial player. (I cleared vSS HM)

On 21M

Relequen/Perfected Lokkestiiz + 1 Kra'gh + 1 Grundwulf + Maelstrom bow

With CP

No CP

On 3M

Relequen/Tzogvin + 2 Grundwulf + Maelstrom bow

With CP

No CP

White CP150 gear (no enchant) and weapons, 7 divine body, 3 robust jewelry, precise front, infused back (white quality enchant)

With CP

No CP

Interesting results.

DAAAAAAAAAMN. Thanks for doing this. I suspected that I'd be hovering at 10-12k DPS with no CP and white gear.

You're welcome. It's for science

Royaji

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Note how the narrative of this thread has changed. First people couldn't do good dps because of their CP. Next, it was because they didn't have golded out perfected gear next there was the story that certain people only have good dps because they cheat/ use macros/modded controllers and after that, it was due to having a poor connection or the game crashing. Who wants to take wagers for the next excuse to pop up?

All players who can break 30k DPS are actually aliens from a faraway planet. They have three extra fingers and can hack their brain directly into the game and alter the speed of electrons running through their interface (they don't actually play on an normal PC or console, that's why no lag) to make their numbers bigger. Although at the same time they are completely incapable of reacting and that's why they only post dummy parses and spend all the time in a trial on the floor while little Timmy valiantly defends the pride of humanity with his 10k snipe spam.

typo

Elwendryll

Royaji wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Note how the narrative of this thread has changed. First people couldn't do good dps because of their CP. Next, it was because they didn't have golded out perfected gear next there was the story that certain people only have good dps because they cheat/ use macros/modded controllers and after that, it was due to having a poor connection or the game crashing. Who wants to take wagers for the next excuse to pop up?

All players who can break 30k DPS are actually aliens from a faraway planet. They have three extra fingers and can hack their brain directly into the game and alter the speed of electrons running through their interface (they don't actually play on an normal PC or console, that's why no lag) to make their numbers bigger. Although at the same time they are completely incapable of reacting and that's why they only post dummy parses and spend all the time in a trial on the floor while little Timmy valiantly defends the pride of humanity with his 10k snipe spam.

typo

Shhh, don't tell our secret.

Elwendryll

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Note how the narrative of this thread has changed. First people couldn't do good dps because of their CP. Next, it was because they didn't have golded out perfected gear next there was the story that certain people only have good dps because they cheat/ use macros/modded controllers and after that, it was due to having a poor connection or the game crashing. Who wants to take wagers for the next excuse to pop up?

It's because I chose my race for the look, I can't reach the same numbers that some people do It's unfair that orc players have 2-3k extra dps just for not having a tail and some fur

azjuwelz

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Note how the narrative of this thread has changed. First people couldn't do good dps because of their CP. Next, it was because they didn't have golded out perfected gear next there was the story that certain people only have good dps because they cheat/ use macros/modded controllers and after that, it was due to having a poor connection or the game crashing. Who wants to take wagers for the next excuse to pop up?

From what I've been seeing, it's not about excuses. It's showing data that suggests there are several variables that all contribute to the dps on a given parse, and each variable can have a larger impact than many of us knew .

And from that, the suggestion is not simply to say to low dps, "L2P."

More accurately, it would be, "Learn to play, get better gear, have CP, have a decent Internet connection, and have the right traits and buffs. Oh, and race. That too."

It's everything put together, and so any complaints about low dps have to take into account all these factors, not just one.

MJallday

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

My point was that a dummy does not realistically represent a trial boss, and that you wouldn’t necessarily run the same gear in a trial as a dummy and get the same 100k result - And definitely not this patch.

I stand 100% behind this statement, so to the poster who was awaiting “an apology “ you’ll still be waiting I’m afraid

You can go over to Eso Logs and have a look what players on PC are wearing in trials. Many post their trial logs for the public. Also there aren't many 100k parses around. Most of the one I have seen are below 90k. Could you link some of those 100k parses, maybe I can learn something from them.

This is my point, I don’t think they exist on console - and if they do it’s limited

Toc de Malsvi

Vahrokh wrote: »

IonicKai wrote: »

DPS nerfs affect players trying to rise up the most and are by far the most frustrating things about ZOS. They keep trying to knee cap the top 1% which can steam roll content but it truly cripples those on the rise not the top of the top. It's been my biggest complaint of this game since getting serious since ZOS keeps missing the mark of bringing down the ceiling.

Exactly what I stated so many times, not just in this thread.
A dude flashing his 100k on Youtube gets nerfed to 85k?
A 15k DPS loss, but... who cares! He will still steamroll the whole content, he will still skip every and each game mechanic, he will still post his guild downing #eliteboss333 before it ends its "first phase" (hm vMOL comes to mind).

A new player or a guy who poured in so much effort and finally achieved 35k DPS, in the same patch gets nerfed to 25k.
Less of a loss than the 100k guy, but now his progress has just been devastated, he's back to the minor league.
He won't even have 50k fans on a Youtube channel he never opened, to side for and support him. He'll just be "just another nameless sucker who wasted all his money to gold a set" and now all of this has been made useless. And will be again in 3 months. And again in 6 months. And so on.

As far as wasting gold sets, well this has been answered before in other threads. But “golding” a set is very much not worthwhile for the majority of players. Golding a weapon is worthwhile but gold on armor pieces offers a very minimal gain, one that is insignificant for the vast majority of players.

This thread has not and did not show the effect of going from purple to gold on set pieces. Purple pieces are easily attainable and many sets drop primarily in purple. Worrying about golding a set is a side issue not directly related.

As far as change in MMO’s that is an unavoidable consequence of being an MMO. Games that don’t change die. The rate of change may be comfortable for some and uncomfortable for others.

As far as targeted nerfs, sure ZOS has done a poor job lowering the ceiling and raising the floor. However, it’s important to remember that any changes are going to be amplified positively for the elite and negatively for the casual. The elite became elite through exposure and practice and are better equipped to handle changes. While the casuals literally just don’t know enough to handle anything but a boost.

So the elite will take a boost and maximize the benefits, while the casual wastes it. Equally the casual will be destroyed by a nerf, while the elite minimizes it.

If they truly want to target the ceiling they likely need to trivialize sustain and light attack damage. If sustain is in any way a factor of performance the elite will maximize the benefit and thereby increase the gap between the floor and ceiling. Light attack weaving and/or “animation cancelling” also works to increase the gap. Casuals spamming light attacks get little benefit while elite players who have good execution get immense benefit.

If we include the sustain changes the casuals would have no need to spam light attacks. A large portion of why casuals spam light/heavy attacks currently has to do with their inherent poor resource management. Trivializing sustain and light attacks however will not be supported by most of the elite as they would see it as trivializing the game in general. Which is part of the problem of designing the game with the input of only elite players.

starkerealm

T3hasiangod wrote: »

ITT: People telling other people how to have fun.

What if my version of fun is sweaty, carpal tunnel inducing, rapidly clicking my keys, combat?

Then you'll end up with carpal tunnel by the time you're my age. Had friends who went that route. Would not recommend.

Morgha_Kul

Again, I think the main concern the devs should have is that the upper levels of dps are such that most of the game becomes trivial. That's not good for the game.

Upper level dps should be difficult to achieve. However, it can't be so high that it makes the game trivial, because it requires content be made that CAN challenge that level of dps... which most players will never be able to participate in (which is what we see now).

I think there needs to be a curve, where it would be theoretically possible to increase dps to infinity, but where it would become increasingly difficult to do so. From my perspective, at 10k damage, I can pretty well clear out anything in the general world with little difficulty. That should be the "top" end of dps. It should be possible to get past that point, but it should get more and more difficult to get even a small amount of dps after that point.

So, instead of bragging about getting 100k dps, players would still be able to brag, but it would be about getting 11k or 12k, since not many people would be able to achieve that much... but it would still mean they could be challenged by more basic content, and it would not require developers to make content SO difficult that people at 5k or 8k simply can't participate.

I don't know if I'm explaining this well. I hope people understand what I mean.

zaria

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

IonicKai wrote: »

DPS nerfs affect players trying to rise up the most and are by far the most frustrating things about ZOS. They keep trying to knee cap the top 1% which can steam roll content but it truly cripples those on the rise not the top of the top. It's been my biggest complaint of this game since getting serious since ZOS keeps missing the mark of bringing down the ceiling.

Exactly what I stated so many times, not just in this thread.
A dude flashing his 100k on Youtube gets nerfed to 85k?
A 15k DPS loss, but... who cares! He will still steamroll the whole content, he will still skip every and each game mechanic, he will still post his guild downing #eliteboss333 before it ends its "first phase" (hm vMOL comes to mind).

A new player or a guy who poured in so much effort and finally achieved 35k DPS, in the same patch gets nerfed to 25k.
Less of a loss than the 100k guy, but now his progress has just been devastated, he's back to the minor league.
He won't even have 50k fans on a Youtube channel he never opened, to side for and support him. He'll just be "just another nameless sucker who wasted all his money to gold a set" and now all of this has been made useless. And will be again in 3 months. And again in 6 months. And so on.

As far as wasting gold sets, well this has been answered before in other threads. But “golding” a set is very much not worthwhile for the majority of players. Golding a weapon is worthwhile but gold on armor pieces offers a very minimal gain, one that is insignificant for the vast majority of players.

This thread has not and did not show the effect of going from purple to gold on set pieces. Purple pieces are easily attainable and many sets drop primarily in purple. Worrying about golding a set is a side issue not directly related.

As far as change in MMO’s that is an unavoidable consequence of being an MMO. Games that don’t change die. The rate of change may be comfortable for some and uncomfortable for others.

As far as targeted nerfs, sure ZOS has done a poor job lowering the ceiling and raising the floor. However, it’s important to remember that any changes are going to be amplified positively for the elite and negatively for the casual. The elite became elite through exposure and practice and are better equipped to handle changes. While the casuals literally just don’t know enough to handle anything but a boost.

So the elite will take a boost and maximize the benefits, while the casual wastes it. Equally the casual will be destroyed by a nerf, while the elite minimizes it.

If they truly want to target the ceiling they likely need to trivialize sustain and light attack damage. If sustain is in any way a factor of performance the elite will maximize the benefit and thereby increase the gap between the floor and ceiling. Light attack weaving and/or “animation cancelling” also works to increase the gap. Casuals spamming light attacks get little benefit while elite players who have good execution get immense benefit.

If we include the sustain changes the casuals would have no need to spam light attacks. A large portion of why casuals spam light/heavy attacks currently has to do with their inherent poor resource management. Trivializing sustain and light attacks however will not be supported by most of the elite as they would see it as trivializing the game in general. Which is part of the problem of designing the game with the input of only elite players.

You sum it up very well, add that ESO under the hood mechanics is not very intuitive.
Yes its a bit better than quantum mechanics, but I say I find meta in Kerbal space program much easier to figure out as its only involve rocket science and orbital mechanics

System is way to complex for the average player progressing trough vet dungeons to make any sense of so he copy an xynode or alcast build. Think we can divide ESO into 3 levels, 1) questing, normal dungeons, cyrodil zerging, advances is normal trials and easy vet dungeons, 2) vet dungeons including dlc, vet craglorn trials, more advanced pvp.
3) the elite: HM dlc motif farming, HM trials, PvP farming,

Note that this is max comfort level, an 3) can enjoy an quest story and an 1) can join an guild vAA run if guild lack an player.

karekiz

Grianasteri wrote: »

I don't know if I'm explaining this well. I hope people understand what I mean.

WTB raid dummy parse of 10K. Should probably get someone to hold your beer first though.

Goregrinder

CP vs No-CP is almost a 30k difference in some cases. That's a big difference.

Varana

It would be pretty bad if it were not. CP are some form of levels, after all, and a system of levelling up without a gain in power would be pretty useless.

kylewwefan

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Note how the narrative of this thread has changed. First people couldn't do good dps because of their CP. Next, it was because they didn't have golded out perfected gear next there was the story that certain people only have good dps because they cheat/ use macros/modded controllers and after that, it was due to having a poor connection or the game crashing. Who wants to take wagers for the next excuse to pop up?

The game plays like complete utter crap for most people and it’s not getting better any time soon. I find that to be perfectly valid part of what holds most would be decent players from getting there.

It’s not immediately responsive. There’s too much delay between when you press a button and your character does anything.

Witnessed first hand in VSO last night. That place is just a laggy mess start to finish. You can deal with it kind of, but it shouldn’t be like that. Yuck oh.

The op here noted nearly a %100 DPS increase with gear. She also has a solid rotation. Some slightly better gear got a little better, but no where near her max.

I can’t really get on board with macros, but also can’t dismiss the possibility of people using them. I bought some stupid expensive controller thinking it might help, and it does, but it doesn’t do macros. It lets me set the trigger response so you don’t have to pull down quite as far to fire. Kind of lame but I like it.

A friend of mine was trying to help me out at one time and noted I was animation cancelling to early or fast and that was preventing the light attack from actually going off. I didn't even know I was doing it. Just mashing buttons to get through.

And CP of course helps and depending on what you’re trying to do can completely drive some builds to actually work.

Your biggest obstacle to try and do end game pve content by far though, is getting a group together.

Runefang

Goregrinder wrote: »

CP vs No-CP is almost a 30k difference in some cases. That's a big difference.

Well it should be. It’s not exactly difficult to get to 300 CP which is the real bare minimum for the hardest end game trials.