"DPS is through the roof" thread part 2

SidraWillowsky

Since the original thread got locked due to outdated information, I'm starting a new one. Particularly because I was intrigued by what @Morgha_Kul was wondering:

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

I wonder if someone with higher dps might try something and report back.

First, tell us what kind of dps you're getting as you are, kitted out normally.

Next, tell us what your dps is with GENERIC gear. No sets, nothing green, blue, purple or better... just plain white gear.

Finally tell us what dps you get in both prior conditions if you take away ALL Champion Points.

In each case, use the same skills and weapons (eg. if you're using a 2H sword in one test, use a 2H sword in all tests).

This will give us four data points.

Normal, advanced and set gear with full CP.
Generic, white gear with full CP.
Normal, advanced and set gear with NO CP.
Generic, white gear with NO CP.

Just curious to know what kind of numbers we will see. It might help us determine where the damage is coming from. Is it the gear? Is it the CP? Is it the skill of the player?

I can provide the first two data points.

I am max CP and my main is a magden. I have my CP allocated more or less the way that Alcast recommends, and my parse gear is (all Legendary) Spell Strat jewels, Bloodthirsty + spell dmg enchants + front bar inferno staff that's precise with a flame enchant; perfected False God's body, all Divines; Zaan head and shoulders, Divines; vMA inferno back bar, infused + weapon damage enchant.

Shadow mundus, all attributes into magicka, Ghastly eye bowl parse food, spell power potions

Front bar: Fissure, Dive, Fetcher, Degeneration, Bird of Prey
Back bar: Unstable Wall, Winter's Revenge, Elemental Drain, Barbed Trap, Bird of Prey.
Eternal Guardian ulti

My best 3 mil parse with the full setup described above is around 50k:



In general, my LA/second ratio is between .87 and .91

I then went into the PTS and made all-white gear with the same traits/enchants as I described above. Bar setup/mundus/etc stayed the same

I was pretty shocked. My DPS was halved:



LA/second ratio is about .87. Perhaps a bit lower, but it's within what I expect to be normal for me. I say that to highlight the fact that I'm LA weaving fairly consistently across parses.

I don't know what I expected, but it sure wasn't as drastic of a drop as this turned out to be. I tried over and over and couldn't get above 25k. I incrementally improved the gear to green, then blue, and finally purple. Each improvement netted about a 1.5k DPS increase- I was hitting about 28.5k with all purple gear. I parse consistent numbers, so there's little variance in terms of numbers within each gear setup.

For funsies, I used the generic purple gear but swapped in the vMA inferno staff on the back bar:



THEN, I made white sets of Julianos, Innate Axiom, and 2 pieces of Assassin's Guile (adds spell crit). Same traits/enchants as above. Easy 32k. I got distracted for a few seconds and missed a few light attacks, so my LA/second ratio is low, so it could be even higher with a better parse:



Removing CP from the equation next is going to be catastrophic to my sustain- I'm pushing it as-is. I'll try that later, but I forsee a LOT of heavy attacks and general struggle bus-iness in my future. Not looking forward to that,

SidraWillowsky

It's not letting me edit, but just to clarify, these are all 3 mil parses because I'm too lazy to sit in front of the 6 or 21 mil for this testing. My 3 and 6 mil parses are the same; I'm sitting at about 76k on the 21 mil with my full (Zaan/Spell Strat/FGD) setup

FierceSam

As I am levelling a new character I have been struggling to get good numbers, and wondered why this is the case. How much is down to my playstyle and how much is down to lack of specific skills, gear, enchants, traits and CP.

So I’m really curious how far this experiment takes you.

My guess is that equipment (both the set and the quality), effective CP distribution, enchants (type and quality), passives and potions will do way more for your DPS than refining your parse, although the effectiveness of your parse compared to mine will determine which of us can get better numbers.

This is sort of obvious, otherwise how can my mag Templar pull down double the dps of my stam sorc.

Please keep up the experimentation and let us know how it goes.

azjuwelz

First, I look at all that lovely data with envy. Really hard to improve on console when you don't even know what you're already doing.

Second, I feel better now about my current dps especially at my cp level, and this just highlights that I need to make more gold to buy the wax and upgrade the other 4 pieces of Relenq body that I now have. Curious to see the effect on my parse afterwards.

I am NOT great at weaving yet, but manage 30k.

(Last, my warden healer is quite happy that her spamming shalks/fetcher in between heals and buffs can apparently make quite an impact on damage)

Rungar

do it with and without light attacks and report back so we can see what the difference is. Dont use sets that rely on light attacks.

we can compare the dmg (minus of dmg light attacks does as per metrics) and compare that to the what we get with no light attacks used. See how close they are percentage wise.

Fur_like_snow

What’s the point of a parse without la damage? Or are you one of those misguided players who want to see LA/weaving and/or AC removed? You guys are like the flat earthers of ESO.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

BloodSkull_ESO

oh look this thread again

Lady_Linux

the bottom line is people with high dps think its them. The reality is it isn't them, it's the gear, cp, and pots and what you bring to the table is really not nearly so much as you think it is.

these epeen posts are funny to me.

Kalik_Gold

In all MMOs it’s about gear. Which is why some people enjoy theory crafting odd sets together. Myself included.

MorganaLaVey

the bottom line is you realy dont need to be a professional e-sport- adicated-neckbeard to do some decent dps,
like this low bobs allways say.
Just do some normal dungeons/ raids to get gear and gold it up. but most can not even do that much

Fur_like_snow

Gear CP and pots can’t make a player avoid one shot mechanics which is more of less the thing that wipes groups in vet content. I’m seeing less epeen more kool aid drinking in this thread but go on keep thinking that low DPS RP no LA build is bringing more to the table.

Parrot1986

Lady_Linux wrote: »

the bottom line is people with high dps think its them. The reality is it isn't them, it's the gear, cp, and pots and what you bring to the table is really not nearly so much as you think it is.

these epeen posts are funny to me.

Gear, pots and CP definitely contribute but the difference between being executed in the right and wrong hands is massive. Player skill impacts performance more than sets.

A good player can do much better with non-meta gear and trash pots than a bad player with BiS gear and pots.

T3hasiangod

Lady_Linux wrote: »

the bottom line is people with high dps think its them. The reality is it isn't them, it's the gear, cp, and pots and what you bring to the table is really not nearly so much as you think it is.

these epeen posts are funny to me.

If it really was just gear, CP, and potions, then we'd be seeing a lot more people pulling high levels of DPS. But we don't see that. Even when people take the gear and CP from an end-game PvE build, many of them aren't able to reproduce the results because they can't execute the rotation well enough.

High DPS is due in large part to player skill. There's no getting around it.

Sergykid

i don't understand how you guys hit so high with light attacks. My light attack parses are placed 2nd or 3rd always, and i weave properly. I am also using vma staff for it in the blockade. Am i missing something here?

SidraWillowsky

Sergykid wrote: »

i don't understand how you guys hit so high with light attacks. My light attack parses are placed 2nd or 3rd always, and i weave properly. I am also using vma staff for it in the blockade. Am i missing something here?

Can you calculate your LA per second ratio for us? If you look at the LA damage percent and check the Crits/Hits column, the Hits will give you that. Then just divide by the parse time (or use the LA Helper addon).

Are you consistently getting LAs in before and after every bar swap? From my experience not getting those in will decrease your LA damage by quite a lot.

How about CP allocation? I think I have 20 in Staff Expert, and others affect it as well.

Lastly, what does your spell damage/max magicka look like? Light attacks using staves scale off of your magicka and spell damage.

Oh, and what sources of damage are ABOVE LAs for you?

Inklings

Way to much emphasis on numbers leaves the fun aspect found wanting. The best thing about Elsweyr was the high dps lead to a 5 year old game for the first time actually having massive amounts of build diversity for being able to complete vet content out side the hardest of hard modes. What we got over the last 2 dlcs has killed that and pigeonholed us into the worst copy and paste meta we have ever had in this game.

Almost as important is a very small % of players even attempt vet content let alone complete any of it and for some reason ZOS is perfectly fine with that and i cant for the life of me understand why they think that's ok. They keep balancing this game in a vacuum around the .01% of us that can put out the top dps and constantly miss the mark to lower the dps gap between players of different skill levels.

Their overall thought process on how ground dots should be viewed and how they behave has had a cascading effect that has now sucked in dirrect dots as well leaving so many skills off the table for builds. Running more then one ground dot is borderline impossible to sustain out of perfect conditions. With how powerful vma staff and bow are this leaves those as our go to single ground dot. This leaves every single class ground dot useless unless it has some passive dps increase tied to it for just having it on your bar. It's the number one thing that has killed class identity so much.

Combat and class identity is gonna suffer until they realize this. There should be an immediate revert of ground dots and new game plan to lower dps that brings the top down without effecting those just under it. The best way to to do that is focus on light attacks being the in the top 3 spots on top dps parses and near the bottom on lower ones. Weaving cant be taken out of the game but we can marginalize its damage to make it not so important. Light attacks are a means to regen ult and that should be their main focus, not super high dps like they are.

ArchMikem

I just want to say, that since the last update (or two, havent done a parse in a while), using the same rotation and, in my eyes, a better build (crit kitty StamNB) from last time, my parse dropped from 36k to 25k.

I was a little upset.

SidraWillowsky

ArchMikem wrote: »

I just want to say, that since the last update (or two, havent done a parse in a while), using the same rotation and, in my eyes, a better build (crit kitty StamNB) from last time, my parse dropped from 36k to 25k.

I was a little upset.

I mained a stamblade for about a year. I actually only made the magden with the intent of trying her out in vMA, but the class was so fun to me that I switched full-time.

I might be doing something wrong, but my stamblade is now in utter shambles too. My DPS dropped about as much as yours did, and she now hits like a wet noodle and is super squishy to boot. Apparently Stamblades are doing well this patch but I'm feeling weaker than ever. I feel you there.

Rungar

maybe you wouldnt have to be nerfed constantly if they fixed the problem.....

ApostateHobo

Inklings wrote: »

Way to much emphasis on numbers leaves the fun aspect found wanting. The best thing about Elsweyr was the high dps lead to a 5 year old game for the first time actually having massive amounts of build diversity for being able to complete vet content out side the hardest of hard modes. What we got over the last 2 dlcs has killed that and pigeonholed us into the worst copy and paste meta we have ever had in this game.

Almost as important is a very small % of players even attempt vet content let alone complete any of it and for some reason ZOS is perfectly fine with that and i cant for the life of me understand why they think that's ok. They keep balancing this game in a vacuum around the .01% of us that can put out the top dps and constantly miss the mark to lower the dps gap between players of different skill levels.

Their overall thought process on how ground dots should be viewed and how they behave has had a cascading effect that has now sucked in dirrect dots as well leaving so many skills off the table for builds. Running more then one ground dot is borderline impossible to sustain out of perfect conditions. With how powerful vma staff and bow are this leaves those as our go to single ground dot. This leaves every single class ground dot useless unless it has some passive dps increase tied to it for just having it on your bar. It's the number one thing that has killed class identity so much.

Combat and class identity is gonna suffer until they realize this. There should be an immediate revert of ground dots and new game plan to lower dps that brings the top down without effecting those just under it. The best way to to do that is focus on light attacks being the in the top 3 spots on top dps parses and near the bottom on lower ones. Weaving cant be taken out of the game but we can marginalize its damage to make it not so important. Light attacks are a means to regen ult and that should be their main focus, not super high dps like they are.

This all of this!

ForzaRammer

so can you at least remind us what the original post was about again?

SidraWillowsky

ForzaRammer wrote: »

so can you at least remind us what the original post was about again?

Yeah, I realized earlier that I'm a dum dum and forgot to link it. Minor details...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/495752/dps-is-through-the-roof-right-now-why-are-so-many-people-still-terribad-at-it

AbysmalGhul

My dps!

Ysbriel

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Since the original thread got locked due to outdated information, I'm starting a new one. Particularly because I was intrigued by what @Morgha_Kul was wondering:

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

I wonder if someone with higher dps might try something and report back.

First, tell us what kind of dps you're getting as you are, kitted out normally.

Next, tell us what your dps is with GENERIC gear. No sets, nothing green, blue, purple or better... just plain white gear.

Finally tell us what dps you get in both prior conditions if you take away ALL Champion Points.

In each case, use the same skills and weapons (eg. if you're using a 2H sword in one test, use a 2H sword in all tests).

This will give us four data points.

Normal, advanced and set gear with full CP.
Generic, white gear with full CP.
Normal, advanced and set gear with NO CP.
Generic, white gear with NO CP.

Just curious to know what kind of numbers we will see. It might help us determine where the damage is coming from. Is it the gear? Is it the CP? Is it the skill of the player?

I can provide the first two data points.

I am max CP and my main is a magden. I have my CP allocated more or less the way that Alcast recommends, and my parse gear is (all Legendary) Spell Strat jewels, Bloodthirsty + spell dmg enchants + front bar inferno staff that's precise with a flame enchant; perfected False God's body, all Divines; Zaan head and shoulders, Divines; vMA inferno back bar, infused + weapon damage enchant.

Shadow mundus, all attributes into magicka, Ghastly eye bowl parse food, spell power potions

Front bar: Fissure, Dive, Fetcher, Degeneration, Bird of Prey
Back bar: Unstable Wall, Winter's Revenge, Elemental Drain, Barbed Trap, Bird of Prey.
Eternal Guardian ulti

My best 3 mil parse with the full setup described above is around 50k:



In general, my LA/second ratio is between .87 and .91

I then went into the PTS and made all-white gear with the same traits/enchants as I described above. Bar setup/mundus/etc stayed the same

I was pretty shocked. My DPS was halved:



LA/second ratio is about .87. Perhaps a bit lower, but it's within what I expect to be normal for me. I say that to highlight the fact that I'm LA weaving fairly consistently across parses.

I don't know what I expected, but it sure wasn't as drastic of a drop as this turned out to be. I tried over and over and couldn't get above 25k. I incrementally improved the gear to green, then blue, and finally purple. Each improvement netted about a 1.5k DPS increase- I was hitting about 28.5k with all purple gear. I parse consistent numbers, so there's little variance in terms of numbers within each gear setup.

For funsies, I used the generic purple gear but swapped in the vMA inferno staff on the back bar:



THEN, I made white sets of Julianos, Innate Axiom, and 2 pieces of Assassin's Guile (adds spell crit). Same traits/enchants as above. Easy 32k. I got distracted for a few seconds and missed a few light attacks, so my LA/second ratio is low, so it could be even higher with a better parse:



Removing CP from the equation next is going to be catastrophic to my sustain- I'm pushing it as-is. I'll try that later, but I forsee a LOT of heavy attacks and general struggle bus-iness in my future. Not looking forward to that,

Did you get that 50k all the time or that was the final 25% due to the bloodthirsty?

you wouldn’t mind sharing you cp allocations?

Morgha_Kul

First, let me say THANKS! I appreciate the time taken to run these tests, I'd just come to ask the question again, and lo and behold it was already being done!

Now, there are a few antagonistic posts, and I'd like to ask that people refrain from that sort of thing. We're trying to be objective here, to gain some information. No one is drawing any conclusions or making any suggestions at this point.


I'll admit part of my interest is in trying to figure out where my dps deficits are originating. As I mentioned in other threads, my dps on my Templar is usually sitting around 4-5k. Yes, that's right. Now, the character is based on a concept that limits how I play him and what skills he takes, so he's not going to have anywhere near optimal damage output. He's really built for survivability, but I would like to get his dps up a BIT, because killing world bosses with 4k dps can get tedious.

So, I thought I'd shift my armour focus, and went to medium armour (shacklebreaker, because he's hybrid), and took the relevant passive skills. To my surprise, my dps barely changed at all (though survivability dropped considerably). I didn't expect a big gain, but I expected SOMETHING. This led me to wonder if gear IS the main source of dps, which lead to my asking the question presented in the first post.

So, while I have a personal interest in this, I also find it interesting from a more holistic perspective. Clearly, gear is a large part of dps, if it was cut in half by losing the gear bonuses. What then would be the effect of CP? If that is insignificant or leaves substantial dps intact, we will have some sense of how much the skill of the player contributes.

In any case, it's an interesting analysis, and I thank everyone participating.

spartaxoxo

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Lady_Linux wrote: »

the bottom line is people with high dps think its them. The reality is it isn't them, it's the gear, cp, and pots and what you bring to the table is really not nearly so much as you think it is.

these epeen posts are funny to me.

If it really was just gear, CP, and potions, then we'd be seeing a lot more people pulling high levels of DPS. But we don't see that. Even when people take the gear and CP from an end-game PvE build, many of them aren't able to reproduce the results because they can't execute the rotation well enough.

High DPS is due in large part to player skill. There's no getting around it.

Yup. I could pass the controller over to a young family member and tell them what buttons push. They won't hit the same numbers as me. I started hitting better numbers in the same gear when I practiced my rotations.

Gear is certainly a big part of it too as it can make dramatic difference in your dps. But player skill plays a large part too.

FierceSam

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Lady_Linux wrote: »

the bottom line is people with high dps think its them. The reality is it isn't them, it's the gear, cp, and pots and what you bring to the table is really not nearly so much as you think it is.

these epeen posts are funny to me.

Gear, pots and CP definitely contribute but the difference between being executed in the right and wrong hands is massive. Player skill impacts performance more than sets.

A good player can do much better with non-meta gear and trash pots than a bad player with BiS gear and pots.

Totally true, but what this thread is suggesting is that a large chunk of DPS is not down to player ability. Thus rating a player on DPS is not an accurate reflection of their ability or whether they are ‘good’.

I would much rather take a low DPS player who was good through vSCP than a higher DPS player who was incompetent. The vast majority of content can be done with relatively low DPS.

frozzzen101

FierceSam wrote: »

Totally true, but what this thread is suggesting is that a large chunk of DPS is not down to player ability. Thus rating a player on DPS is not an accurate reflection of their ability or whether they are ‘good’.

I would much rather take a low DPS player who was good through vSCP than a higher DPS player who was incompetent. The vast majority of content can be done with relatively low DPS.

Thing is, can you suggest other objectively quantifiable metric to rate player on? Yes, dummy dps isn't end all be all, but there is strong correlation between it and actual player performance.

As for second part, again, player dps and player skill correlate quite a lot. Yes, higher dps player can have bad day when he dies to stupid here and there, but if you average their performance in same repeated scenario, for vast majority of the cases higher dps player will also outperform low dps players in terms of survivability, positioning and any other metric.
As small anecdotal experience, just now I've scanned some of my guildmates that are posting parses, and when I remember their performance in content, higher dps perfectly correlates to all other metrics mentioned above. If I were to make table where I'd rank their survivability and positioning and separate table with only their parses, they'd overlap almost perfectly.

spartaxoxo

frozzzen101 wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Totally true, but what this thread is suggesting is that a large chunk of DPS is not down to player ability. Thus rating a player on DPS is not an accurate reflection of their ability or whether they are ‘good’.

I would much rather take a low DPS player who was good through vSCP than a higher DPS player who was incompetent. The vast majority of content can be done with relatively low DPS.

Thing is, can you suggest other objectively quantifiable metric to rate player on? Yes, dummy dps isn't end all be all, but there is strong correlation between it and actual player performance.

As for second part, again, player dps and player skill correlate quite a lot. Yes, higher dps player can have bad day when he dies to stupid here and there, but if you average their performance in same repeated scenario, for vast majority of the cases higher dps player will also outperform low dps players in terms of survivability, positioning and any other metric.
As small anecdotal experience, just now I've scanned some of my guildmates that are posting parses, and when I remember their performance in content, higher dps perfectly correlates to all other metrics mentioned above. If I were to make table where I'd rank their survivability and positioning and separate table with only their parses, they'd overlap almost perfectly.

To be honest I don't really see dummy parses to be a good indicator of things like positioning. I do think you have to be skilled at the raw mechanics to get those parses but they don't necessarily transfer to other skills.

A lot of the reason that learning hard content often takes so long is because those people aren't any better at that stuff and will continue making dumb mistakes until it finally sinks into their head.

Also a lot of content is easier to complete with higher parses and thus less effort. A lot of content just flat out skips mechanics if you're hitting hard enough, which results in people not needing to know the skipped mechanics that well. They will then fail when running with a group that can't skip the mechanics, call their group trash because they can't actually do the mechanics, and get more high dps in to skip them. It's that behavior that leads to people having the impression that high dps =/= skilled and why people will claim to want a low dps that knows what he or she is doing than a high one that doesn't.

The best dps are good at both, and are obviously superior to either of those choices.

Fur_like_snow

Some of you are being out DPSed by a toaster lmao 😂