This patch can’t go live. For the love of this game do not let this go live as is

BlueRaven · October 2019

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Is it characteristic for MMOs to become less fun to play over time? It's an honest question, I haven't played one before. It doesn't strike me as a very sound business philosophy.

Ever since WOW it´s become somewhat of an inevitable fact for almost all major mmo releases (atleast the ones i played).

WOW over time has massively decreased the games difficulty in every form or shape and other MMO devs have followed suit - because it´s the most successful game on the market and they must do something right in that regard - or not?

This decrease in difficulty and complexity is done in an attempt to increase the potential playerbase - most gamers aren´t core gamers but rather casuals that spend only a few hours a week with no time to really get into mechanics or grindy systems and complex skilltrees.

From my perspective virtually every mmo developer has missed the mark with this philosophy so far bc instead of allowing for easier access but still retaining a learning curve and keeping their original skill ceiling and providing rewarding content for all players along the way they´ve chose to lower the skill ceiling along with the entry point.
This alienates their core playerbase over time and ironically also the "lower skilled" players they originally hooked with this because those also improve over time invested (just at a slower pace or from a lower starting point than core players) and get turned off by dumbed down gameplay.
The gravest mistake that now follows in compensating for the loss of those alienated players is reducing the ceiling even further in an attempt to make the game accessible for even more players at the lower end of the spectrum and a vicious cycle of self destruction is started.

Have seen this happen in too many games since wow came out sadly.

The only problem here is that these changes dramatically decrease the dps of casual players. Much more than the high end players who utilize animation canceling. And the devs have specifically said that the players who log on to just “kill dragons” are not their focus.

Casual players will now be a lot more limited in what they can do. Content they can now do will be closed to them because their dps will be too low.

This patch is not dumbing down dps to help casual players. This is lowering dps without care for casual players.

Vahrokh · October 2019

SipofMaim wrote: »

It's going to be fine. Sorcs have some new things to play with

Like? I am a PvE pet magsorc and would love to know.

luen79rwb17_ESO · October 2019

The season of the dragon + cats thing got me hooked earlier this year. It really did. Too bad it was tainted with all this combat mess.

Now I just have a bitter taste in my mouth. First time I feel this way towards ESO, I've been playing since beta and went through all of past changes.

Vahrokh · October 2019

ZonasArch wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

This is the only game I have ever played where patches make it less enjoyable to play

Makes me wonder why wow classic is such a huge success then... Or old school RuneScape. Just to stick to popular MMOs.

Old school MMOs have this thing in common: they don't suck.

It took serious committment, for several years, to turn something as awesome as WoW into a flaming garbage bucket such as WoD -> BFA.

ESO? Did exactly the same. Started A-WE-SO-ME. Even I, who hate PvP, enjoyed 2014-2015 ESO PvP, our PvE trials beta guild had massively huge evenings where everyone joined in and did PvP.

Then ESO took the WoW BFA way: deflated. Diluted. Made cheesy and dumb. Clunky. Emasculated classes unique traits and created this "generic soup" we have to deal with.

If anything, we need Classic ESO. Yes, it had LOADS of issues but it was EXCELLENT and - most of all - FUN and SATISFYING.

All ESO needs is an hard reset to before Morrowind, call it ESO Classic and then just apply small, gradual, incremental tweaks until the classes deliver similar results for a given amount of skill / effort.

BlueRaven · October 2019

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The season of the dragon + cats thing got me hooked earlier this year. It really did. Too bad it was tainted with all this combat mess.

Now I just have a bitter taste in my mouth. First time I feel this way towards ESO, I've been playing since beta and went through all of past changes.

Same here. Consistent sub since beta, now cancelled (officially ending in November). The story is great, the combat team is awful. If the combat team was just “meh”, I would have stayed a subscriber.

Casterial · October 2019

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Is it characteristic for MMOs to become less fun to play over time? It's an honest question, I haven't played one before. It doesn't strike me as a very sound business philosophy.

Ever since WOW it´s become somewhat of an inevitable fact for almost all major mmo releases (atleast the ones i played).

WOW over time has massively decreased the games difficulty in every form or shape and other MMO devs have followed suit - because it´s the most successful game on the market and they must do something right in that regard - or not?

This decrease in difficulty and complexity is done in an attempt to increase the potential playerbase - most gamers aren´t core gamers but rather casuals that spend only a few hours a week with no time to really get into mechanics or grindy systems and complex skilltrees.

From my perspective virtually every mmo developer has missed the mark with this philosophy so far bc instead of allowing for easier access but still retaining a learning curve and keeping their original skill ceiling and providing rewarding content for all players along the way they´ve chose to lower the skill ceiling along with the entry point..

I was one of the top players on WoW. I quit because the learning curve was gone, I was mythic raiding within the first week mythic was out, I did my mythic keys daily, and the loot system was utter crap. I'd see people who had good RNG pass me, but be bad players who are basically carried by gear and don't know their class because the game has held their hand, their gear holds their DPS

Games destroying the learning curve, nerfing to make grind, and holding hands to newbs definitely does alienate the skilled players

There's a reason why almost all pvpers from 1.4+ that are still around don't compliment the game, we watched thousands quit over the years, we watched Cyrodiil become a ghost town because of the awful lag. We just know that ZOS focus isn't the right focus.

I'd love for them to leave the game as is for a year and focus purely on performance, but they won't do that.

BlueRaven · October 2019

Casterial wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Is it characteristic for MMOs to become less fun to play over time? It's an honest question, I haven't played one before. It doesn't strike me as a very sound business philosophy.

Ever since WOW it´s become somewhat of an inevitable fact for almost all major mmo releases (atleast the ones i played).

WOW over time has massively decreased the games difficulty in every form or shape and other MMO devs have followed suit - because it´s the most successful game on the market and they must do something right in that regard - or not?

This decrease in difficulty and complexity is done in an attempt to increase the potential playerbase - most gamers aren´t core gamers but rather casuals that spend only a few hours a week with no time to really get into mechanics or grindy systems and complex skilltrees.

From my perspective virtually every mmo developer has missed the mark with this philosophy so far bc instead of allowing for easier access but still retaining a learning curve and keeping their original skill ceiling and providing rewarding content for all players along the way they´ve chose to lower the skill ceiling along with the entry point..

I was one of the top players on WoW. I quit because the learning curve was gone, I was mythic raiding within the first week mythic was out, I did my mythic keys daily, and the loot system was utter crap. I'd see people who had good RNG pass me, but be bad players who are basically carried by gear and don't know their class because the game has held their hand, their gear holds their DPS

Games destroying the learning curve, nerfing to make grind, and holding hands to newbs definitely does alienate the skilled players

There's a reason why almost all pvpers from 1.4+ that are still around don't compliment the game, we watched thousands quit over the years, we watched Cyrodiil become a ghost town because of the awful lag. We just know that ZOS focus isn't the right focus.

I'd love for them to leave the game as is for a year and focus purely on performance, but they won't do that.

You can’t blame these changes on casuals when;

A ) Zos has clearly stated they don’t consider casual players in their combat changes.

And B ) Casual players are going to lose the most dps.

Zos is not making these changes for the benefit of casuals, these changes are a detriment to them.

Casterial · October 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Is it characteristic for MMOs to become less fun to play over time? It's an honest question, I haven't played one before. It doesn't strike me as a very sound business philosophy.

Ever since WOW it´s become somewhat of an inevitable fact for almost all major mmo releases (atleast the ones i played).

WOW over time has massively decreased the games difficulty in every form or shape and other MMO devs have followed suit - because it´s the most successful game on the market and they must do something right in that regard - or not?

This decrease in difficulty and complexity is done in an attempt to increase the potential playerbase - most gamers aren´t core gamers but rather casuals that spend only a few hours a week with no time to really get into mechanics or grindy systems and complex skilltrees.

From my perspective virtually every mmo developer has missed the mark with this philosophy so far bc instead of allowing for easier access but still retaining a learning curve and keeping their original skill ceiling and providing rewarding content for all players along the way they´ve chose to lower the skill ceiling along with the entry point..

I was one of the top players on WoW. I quit because the learning curve was gone, I was mythic raiding within the first week mythic was out, I did my mythic keys daily, and the loot system was utter crap. I'd see people who had good RNG pass me, but be bad players who are basically carried by gear and don't know their class because the game has held their hand, their gear holds their DPS

Games destroying the learning curve, nerfing to make grind, and holding hands to newbs definitely does alienate the skilled players

There's a reason why almost all pvpers from 1.4+ that are still around don't compliment the game, we watched thousands quit over the years, we watched Cyrodiil become a ghost town because of the awful lag. We just know that ZOS focus isn't the right focus.

I'd love for them to leave the game as is for a year and focus purely on performance, but they won't do that.

You can’t blame these changes on casuals when;

A ) Zos has clearly stated they don’t consider casual players in their combat changes.

And B ) Casual players are going to lose the most dps.

Zos is not making these changes for the benefit of casuals, these changes are a detriment to them.

It's not balming casuals, ZOS is lowering the skill ceiling is all. This all started the moment heavy attacks became unBashable, from there it went to bashing sharing CC immunity, then continued onward.

By lowering the skill ceiling they're making it so casuals and top tier don't have as big of a gap.

Kalante · October 2019

This whole lowering the ceiling thing is such crap. What is the point of even trying to get good.

wnights · October 2019

It's simple really:
If most players find it too hard to complete new group content that comes with DLCs and chapters: they won't bother buying it. That's at least 2 dlc a year that offer only dungeons. Unless they start giving out mounts as the first-entry reward 😂

In the long run business-wise it's always better to keep the casual players. I am usually against making games overly simple (look what happened to WoW everything just brcame a silly grind) but ESO is not an easy game as it is. Weaving, keeping a rotation. New players find all these things challenging

Wayshuba · October 2019

There is nothing that can be done at this point. Same warning came out with OP'd DoTs with U23 and it had no effect.

You have to understand, the ZoS MO is to go live with it, wait to see the player attrition damage, then nerf/buff the heck out of it next patch.

ESO has so many positive things going for it but this last year it has been overshadowed by this wild swing alpha approach to skill adjustments every quarter.

It will go live, it will have a fallout, and ZoS will swing wildly back the other way come U25.....

BlueRaven · October 2019

The

Casterial wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Is it characteristic for MMOs to become less fun to play over time? It's an honest question, I haven't played one before. It doesn't strike me as a very sound business philosophy.

Ever since WOW it´s become somewhat of an inevitable fact for almost all major mmo releases (atleast the ones i played).

WOW over time has massively decreased the games difficulty in every form or shape and other MMO devs have followed suit - because it´s the most successful game on the market and they must do something right in that regard - or not?

This decrease in difficulty and complexity is done in an attempt to increase the potential playerbase - most gamers aren´t core gamers but rather casuals that spend only a few hours a week with no time to really get into mechanics or grindy systems and complex skilltrees.

From my perspective virtually every mmo developer has missed the mark with this philosophy so far bc instead of allowing for easier access but still retaining a learning curve and keeping their original skill ceiling and providing rewarding content for all players along the way they´ve chose to lower the skill ceiling along with the entry point..

I was one of the top players on WoW. I quit because the learning curve was gone, I was mythic raiding within the first week mythic was out, I did my mythic keys daily, and the loot system was utter crap. I'd see people who had good RNG pass me, but be bad players who are basically carried by gear and don't know their class because the game has held their hand, their gear holds their DPS

Games destroying the learning curve, nerfing to make grind, and holding hands to newbs definitely does alienate the skilled players

There's a reason why almost all pvpers from 1.4+ that are still around don't compliment the game, we watched thousands quit over the years, we watched Cyrodiil become a ghost town because of the awful lag. We just know that ZOS focus isn't the right focus.

I'd love for them to leave the game as is for a year and focus purely on performance, but they won't do that.

You can’t blame these changes on casuals when;

A ) Zos has clearly stated they don’t consider casual players in their combat changes.

And B ) Casual players are going to lose the most dps.

Zos is not making these changes for the benefit of casuals, these changes are a detriment to them.

It's not balming casuals, ZOS is lowering the skill ceiling is all. This all started the moment heavy attacks became unBashable, from there it went to bashing sharing CC immunity, then continued onward.

By lowering the skill ceiling they're making it so casuals and top tier don't have as big of a gap.

If they wanted to lower the skill level they would put an end to animation canceling, and make viable builds that can be done on one bar, but they are not.

I suppose a 25% nerf to someone doing 100k will make them lose a lot more in raw numbers than a 25% nerf to someone doing 20k. But that 15k dps will be limited with what they can do now.

Also that casual dps will probably still be following the in game tips which says they should put this dot or aoe on their bar and think it is doing half decent dps.

Zos has clearly and loudly stated that the combat changes are not focused on casual players. They have a "Casuals don't care about their dps, why should we?" attitude towards them. They openly said so. Also the combat lead does not do PvE content at all. He is not even on the "dungeon" team.

The lead combat designer does not do PvE content. Let that sink in.

BlueRaven · October 2019

Casterial wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Is it characteristic for MMOs to become less fun to play over time? It's an honest question, I haven't played one before. It doesn't strike me as a very sound business philosophy.

Ever since WOW it´s become somewhat of an inevitable fact for almost all major mmo releases (atleast the ones i played).

WOW over time has massively decreased the games difficulty in every form or shape and other MMO devs have followed suit - because it´s the most successful game on the market and they must do something right in that regard - or not?

This decrease in difficulty and complexity is done in an attempt to increase the potential playerbase - most gamers aren´t core gamers but rather casuals that spend only a few hours a week with no time to really get into mechanics or grindy systems and complex skilltrees.

From my perspective virtually every mmo developer has missed the mark with this philosophy so far bc instead of allowing for easier access but still retaining a learning curve and keeping their original skill ceiling and providing rewarding content for all players along the way they´ve chose to lower the skill ceiling along with the entry point..

I was one of the top players on WoW. I quit because the learning curve was gone, I was mythic raiding within the first week mythic was out, I did my mythic keys daily, and the loot system was utter crap. I'd see people who had good RNG pass me, but be bad players who are basically carried by gear and don't know their class because the game has held their hand, their gear holds their DPS

Games destroying the learning curve, nerfing to make grind, and holding hands to newbs definitely does alienate the skilled players

There's a reason why almost all pvpers from 1.4+ that are still around don't compliment the game, we watched thousands quit over the years, we watched Cyrodiil become a ghost town because of the awful lag. We just know that ZOS focus isn't the right focus.

I'd love for them to leave the game as is for a year and focus purely on performance, but they won't do that.

You can’t blame these changes on casuals when;

A ) Zos has clearly stated they don’t consider casual players in their combat changes.

And B ) Casual players are going to lose the most dps.

Zos is not making these changes for the benefit of casuals, these changes are a detriment to them.

It's not balming casuals, ZOS is lowering the skill ceiling is all. This all started the moment heavy attacks became unBashable, from there it went to bashing sharing CC immunity, then continued onward.

By lowering the skill ceiling they're making it so casuals and top tier don't have as big of a gap.

Continued:

I feel as if I should have included a link with my comments so here is one for you.

(I wrote all of this before in another thread.)

https://youtu.be/Yb9H1kwF25w

Brian Wheeler 58:45 min: "We have dedicated testing group, that runs through the dungeons, to make sure, that they can still complete the dungeons."

That does not sound like what you were just describing. I used to play wow, and they had a developer there called Ghostcrawler who gave very detailed reason why they buffed and nerfed abilities. He went through each one and made sure that the final dps output was exactly what was needed for each class.

So why is Wheeler NOT running those same dungeons with them? Why was "Lets try to keep PvE dps the same" not a factor?

What we get here is a blanket dps nerf and conversation that seems like it went;

Wheeler; "Dungeon team, can you still run the dungeons?"

Dungeon team; "...Sure... But-"

Wheeler; "Good enough! Moving on!"

And who is on this dungeon team anyway? Are they people who are doing 100k+ dps? Because determining if a high end player can complete a dungeon with a major dps nerf is not really helpful. Yes, the guilds who can clear Vet Sunspire in less then 30 minutes will be fine. What about the rest of us?

••••

GilliamtheRogue 1:01:50 min: "..what kind of players experience the game in different ways, and what is our target audience with some these changes. So like in some of these cases it's a numbers game which not everyone really cares about. The average player who's going to come on and just kill some dragons or stuff like that, they don't care if they're spammable is doing a billion damage..." (Emphasis mine.)

Wheeler: "Well I would."

They tried to walk it back, but it was pretty clear.

They go on to to say they are focused on the end game group. And that the endgame players "...thats's where a lot of the number balancing, in terms of why things get buffed or nerfed is, like, its focused on that group in terms of making sure that we have a healthy game that everyone can experience..." (Again emphasis mine.)

So, the people that are struggling, the people who can barely clear a dlc dungeon on normal, not their "focus". Can the high end groups still clear content? Then fine.

Sure a dps that is doing 75k going down to 55k (for example) will be fine. They can clear content just as well as they always did.

But that same 26-27% drop will make a struggling 25k dps go below 20k. And that is NOT a factor or focus to the team, and they are ok with it.

universal_wrath · October 2019

Nerftheforums wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Dude this is one of the least controversial patches ever. Murkmire, 1t, homestead, morrowind, elsweyr, summerset are just the first one to come to my head when I think about a totally *** patch that went 100% against the players' will in terms of combat. Don't expect the dev team to consider a postponement of the patch, nor to make such fundamental changes in the last week for the better.

About half of those previous patches was with the old combat team. This patch may not be as controversial but it’s at a pivotal point in the games life where this patch is putting eso at a very real risk of losing a large amount of the playerbase that still plays

Dude, if they haven't left after the patches I mentioned (or even just last patch), they won't leave for this one. Guaranteed. It's just a sustain nerf, and it's WAAAAAAAY smaller than what happened in morrowind.

It does not matter of it was way smaller or not, it avout the new combat team. Everyone had high hopes because the new combat team convey that feeling to the players. Now combat team has failed to meet the expectations of the player 2 times already and they are going for a third in a raw. It will just make player lose hope for improvments and leave. I know for myself that I'm currently looking for alternetive game, because the combat team promised me an air atronach and spammable, instead, we get this abomination called bound armaments. Rip off from nightblade grim focus. No matter if it is strong or weird, it does not resonate with stam sorc identity.

Joy_Division · October 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

GilliamtheRogue 1:01:50 min: "..what kind of players experience the game in different ways, and what is our target audience with some these changes. So like in some of these cases it's a numbers game which not everyone really cares about. The average player who's going to come on and just kill some dragons or stuff like that, they don't care if they're spammable is doing a billion damage..." (Emphasis mine.)

This attitude bothers me. How does he know? He doesn't. He's just assuming. Just because a person isn't an "elitist" doesn't mean they don't care about how or how well their characters play and they very much do care when they can't complete content.

I remember when I used to que up for dungeons, I hated doing so on Sundays because there definitely is a "Sunday driver" phenomenon here on ESO, which basically means a lot of folks Gilliam is referring to play on Sundays. I can still remember doing a Crypt of Hearts pledge (when this dungeon was legit challenging) and hopping into Teamspeak (yes, that long ago) because we kept wiping in the second [!] boss. Although these players were "average," to use Gilliam's phrase, they talked about ZOS changes, being frustrated not being able to do this dungeon which they were capable of doing before, and caring that their attacks weren't doing a billion damage. Just because a player is "average" doesn't mean they are totally cool with nerfing their characters or that they have no interest in doing the instanced content the game provides.

Michaelkeir · October 2019

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

This is the only game I have ever played where patches make it less enjoyable to play

Makes me wonder why wow classic is such a huge success then... Or old school RuneScape. Just to stick to popular MMOs.

I could bring gta online here too, that's going FAST towards becoming saints row online...

Whether I like the patches or not, that's irrelevant here, but saying this is the only game where patches make the game worse is a stretch that renders your argument null.

Also, worse/better is a pov. I'm of the opinion that reducing DPS is great, but also that sucky sustain is bad for casual average players. To me, is this patch good or bad?

Answer? Both. Just like all the other patches ever in every game ever. Some people like it, some don't, most don't care or even hear about the changes.

And I'll go even further to say that after sustain gets figured out, metawise, no one will be too upset. Just like Morrowind. Remember that patch? I do. It sucked.

Null? I'll repeat myself.

Joy_Division wrote: »

This is the only game I have ever played where patches make it less enjoyable to play

Is it characteristic for MMOs to become less fun to play over time? It's an honest question, I haven't played one before. It doesn't strike me as a very sound business philosophy.

I've been playing MMOs for years....and sadly this is true. After a while they become less fun and more of a chore to play. Usually in my personal view, things get changed to cater to casuals and less so towards their hardcore fans. So as the hardcore crowd gets tired of the nerf roller coaster and start to complain or outright leave, companies rope in more new players with new shinies or gimmicks.

ESO is no different. I've noticed less friends in my guilds with each update and more new people playing (light attack spammers in dungeons). The more fans they lose the more gimmicks bring in new players. Mark my words...when the Skyrim expansion drops (we all know it's coming), it could be the worst gameplay update yet....(massive nerfs, more lag, etc.) but I bet you it will be a flood of new players coming in to get a taste of "Skyrim" again (gimmick).

GrimTheReaper45 · October 2019

Joy_Division wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

GilliamtheRogue 1:01:50 min: "..what kind of players experience the game in different ways, and what is our target audience with some these changes. So like in some of these cases it's a numbers game which not everyone really cares about. The average player who's going to come on and just kill some dragons or stuff like that, they don't care if they're spammable is doing a billion damage..." (Emphasis mine.)

This attitude bothers me. How does he know? He doesn't. He's just assuming. Just because a person isn't an "elitist" doesn't mean they don't care about how or how well their characters play and they very much do care when they can't complete content.

I remember when I used to que up for dungeons, I hated doing so on Sundays because there definitely is a "Sunday driver" phenomenon here on ESO, which basically means a lot of folks Gilliam is referring to play on Sundays. I can still remember doing a Crypt of Hearts pledge (when this dungeon was legit challenging) and hopping into Teamspeak (yes, that long ago) because we kept wiping in the second [!] boss. Although these players were "average," to use Gilliam's phrase, they talked about ZOS changes, being frustrated not being able to do this dungeon which they were capable of doing before, and caring that their attacks weren't doing a billion damage. Just because a player is "average" doesn't mean they are totally cool with nerfing their characters or that they have no interest in doing the instanced content the game provides.

This 110%

the bottom cares more about these nerfs than the top. If your pulling a massive amount of dps, have a solid raid group to farm new gear. Its easier to adjust than the players that spend months getting gear farmed and golded out and months and months practicing there rotation or developing skill in pvp. A 5k dps loss to a noob who has been practicing there butt off increasing there dps is a much bigger hit to them that a player with 65k dps taking the same 5 hit.

NBrookus · October 2019

I think devs do need to ignore player demands sometimes. A lot of the mess we are in is player-driven. Everyone wanted to heal like a templar, tank like a DK, damage and kite like a sorc, move and burst like a nightblade. So here we are. We got the homogenization we asked for.

When there were rock paper scissors matchups, a nightblade couldn't kill a decent DK and DKs excelled at crushing dodge spammers, NBs complained. So they made DK skills dodgeable and instead of giving NB an unreflectable skill, got rid of reflect. When NBs easily ganked players (except DKs), NB burst was repeatedly nerfed. No one could catch a sorc on the run, so they nerfed sorc mobility. Templars were really good at healing and supporting a group, so they repeatedly nerfed templar healing and gave the support to everyone. The list goes on.

The devs do listen. They just listened to a whole lot of the wrong things without a solid vision to keep them grounded.

I'm going to defend Gilliam's comment a bit here. Casual players don't care what their dps is. They may not even know it. They care if they can complete the content and have fun doing it. That's a different thing altogether. And it's what veteran players care about, too.

Veinblood1965 · October 2019

I actually read this whole thread and came away with this question. Has ZOS clearly and in depth stated why they are making these changes?

I unsubbed a few months ago but do miss playing. I've been on and off the fence for a while now just these changes are unsettling. If there was a long term benefit in mind that made sense I'd sign back up and wait it out. Constantly learning new rotations and regearing does not appeal to me however.

SipofMaim · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

SipofMaim wrote: »

It's going to be fine. Sorcs have some new things to play with

Like? I am a PvE pet magsorc and would love to know.

I'm almost certain you're aware stamsorcs are a thing, and that some magsorcs do PVP.

I didn't do the patch. Spare me your salt.

JinMori · October 2019

idk wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

This is the only game I have ever played where patches make it less enjoyable to play

Makes me wonder why wow classic is such a huge success then... Or old school RuneScape. Just to stick to popular MMOs.

I could bring gta online here too, that's going FAST towards becoming saints row online...

Whether I like the patches or not, that's irrelevant here, but saying this is the only game where patches make the game worse is a stretch that renders your argument null.

Also, worse/better is a pov. I'm of the opinion that reducing DPS is great, but also that sucky sustain is bad for casual average players. To me, is this patch good or bad?

Answer? Both. Just like all the other patches ever in every game ever. Some people like it, some don't, most don't care or even hear about the changes.

And I'll go even further to say that after sustain gets figured out, metawise, no one will be too upset. Just like Morrowind. Remember that patch? I do. It sucked.

Null? I'll repeat myself.

Joy_Division wrote: »

This is the only game I have ever played where patches make it less enjoyable to play

Is it characteristic for MMOs to devolve and become less fun to play over time? It's an honest question, I haven't played one before. It doesn't strike me as a very sound business philosophy.

My mistake. You were very clear, my brain that's just tired.

And yes, it's pretty common. Between programming clutter, greed, power creep, innovations for the sake of innovations... Plenty of reasons that lead most, if not all, MMOs downhill. Some go down faster, some take longer, but eventually they all get this feeling of "whyyyyyyy???" that we're getting from ZOS right now. I don't think it's a philosophy, but a consequence of corporate thinking. Gotta keep ignorant nameless investors happy somehow.

OH, and unfriendly unwelcoming economies are also a thing that happen. If inflation's isn't kept at a hardcore check, it's impossible for new players to enjoy the game, and lots of games fail there too. ESO has so many gold sinks, it's one of the most stable economies I've seen in MMOs. Helps with this aura of casual friendly game too.

Fair enough. I think it would be better to build off of a foundation of the parts we do like rather than try to reinvent the game every 3 months, but I guess that's unrealistic.

I fully agree. However, Zos has mentioned vision a few times yet they really seem to lack vision and that comes from early on in the game.

Why just now are they codifying a vision for combat in the game? It seems that should have been done way more than 6 years ago and since it was not done, or not done well back then, they have struggled to manage this game since launch.

A great example of the lack of vision is the CP system. When Zos introduced it there was no artificial cap like we have now and they stated the average player would reach the full 3600 points in less than 2 years. When it was tested on the PTS we have access to the full 3600 points. We noted how OP we were with the full points yet Zos released it where we could get the full 3600 pts.

Granted, they made adjustments and placed the artificial cap we now have but it just goes to show how little Zos thinks things through and this is just one example. I personally think it is the same poor guidance, or lack of it, that is the reason this game launched in such a poor state back in 2014.

This is exactly what iv'e talked about numerous times, the problem isn't that they implemented cp, the problem is that they didn't really account for it much, like oh yea, let's make a progression system that allows you to get stronger and stronger, and we won't really bother with balancing around it, no, let's just nerf everything, by the way, cp was massively nerfed, remember when you used to get resources on level up up to a max of 60% at cp 3600, that is no more.

As always they went with the "easier" solution, rather than making new systems and difficulties to counter the power progression, they decided that it was a better idea to just nerf everything when it would have been either necessary or at least recommended.

It's not even the nerfs that bother me the most, because i understand that nerfs are just a symptom of the real problem.

What pisses me off the most about eso is this overly laid back, let's fix it later when we have to, it's gonna be fine attitude. The let's make the bare minimum kind of mentality and not even that at some points.

This can be also seen when they stream, some people may find it cute when you make jokes and stupid bs like that, but after repeated bad patches it honestly kinda pisses me off to see silly attitude like that in a professional setting, i would be more than fine with it if the game was good, but that attitude on their streams further reminds me how seriously they seem to take these problems, which passes off as very little, both on their streams and with what they do to the game, and maybe the fault isn't even theirs, but the higher ups, but regardless this is the result.

fbours · October 2019

The only playerbase we might be losing is the vocal minority. You think changing abilities will make the average/casual player which is their target market leave, no. One thing I do agree about why this patch is bad is the inconsistency and lack of vision/direction on ZOS part. Now after few months we are in a new treadmill, too fast too soon - trademills are core to MMOs BTW, just look at other MMOs.

You know what will make people quit (pvp)? Performance, when I can't use my abilities that are getting nerfed what's the point. Remove cloak but give me better performance so I can play in pvp properly

JinMori · October 2019

fbours wrote: »

The only playerbase we might be losing is the vocal minority. You think changing abilities will make the average/casual player which is their target market leave, no. One thing I do agree about why this patch is bad is the inconsistency and lack of vision/direction on ZOS part. Now after few months we are in a new treadmill, too fast too soon - trademills are core to MMOs BTW, just look at other MMOs.

You know what will make people quit (pvp)? Performance, when I can't use my abilities that are getting nerfed what's the point. Remove cloak but give me better performance so I can play in pvp properly

Why people keep assuming that the casual player doesn't really care at all if they are nerfed or not?

You think they aren't gonna notice for the worse that their dots have been nerfed by 50%, do you seriously think they are that dumb?

The fact is that the casual player that leaves, you don;t hear about it, because most likely you don't hear them on the forums, which makes you think that they don't really care at all about damage healing or mitigation in any way, but when they get destroyed while doing stuff because they just can't do any of those things even to the low standard that they were doing before, i assure you that many will leave.

Casual players might not care about being the best of the best, but they aren't just completely oblivious to changes like this.

So stop saying stupid *** like that.

The rest of what you said i agree with though.

XIIICaesar · October 2019

Honestly, it seems each week this PTS cycle when the patch notes were released that ZOS made changes based on player feedback in the forums. This is looking like a good patch > best patch since Murkmire IMHO.

LiquidPony · October 2019

XIIICaesar wrote: »

Honestly, it seems each week this PTS cycle when the patch notes were released that ZOS made changes based on player feedback in the forums. This is looking like a good patch > best patch since Murkmire IMHO.

This is why we can't have nice things.

JinMori · October 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

XIIICaesar wrote: »

Honestly, it seems each week this PTS cycle when the patch notes were released that ZOS made changes based on player feedback in the forums. This is looking like a good patch > best patch since Murkmire IMHO.

This is why we can't have nice things.

The problem is that they aren't really fixing thing because we asked to, but more probably because even they realized they went way too overboard with it, which isn't really worthy of acclaim.

It's like oh look we fixed the bare minimum we needed to, ain't i a great dev, of course people are gonna say no.

And not even fully might i add, aoe dots are straight trash, they fixed things that could have been easily avoided, and we should praise them for it? We should praise them because they decided to revert the dots nerf from 60% to 50%? We should praise them because they improved a few animations? We should praise them while there are still so many much bigger problems roaming around like general performance, the cycle of nerfs that really needs to be broken as i said in my previous post, the fact that pvp and pve still is tied together causing so many issues?

Are they really worthy of praise?

josh.lackey_ESO · October 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

If they wanted to lower the skill level they would put an end to animation canceling

That would make every single ability and even light attacks work like ultimates with a cast time. Everyone would quit the game.

BattleAxe · October 2019

I started this a several other posts and each one shows their are players that care about this game enough to be vocal don’t discount the players that are not on the forums that could be for multiple reasons. We can’t assume “casual players don’t really care every time I’m on my tank pugging dungeons it’s to help other players and the things I hear and compliments on my tanking ability shows even casual players want to do endgame just no one is taking the time to be the teacher. My one guild I’m very active in I’ve started role classes teaching people the fundamentals to performing the role they choose. Usually my messengers blow up for individual help I’m only one player if more players ban together and teach others instead of dismiss them assuming they aren’t as serious as us this game may become fun again.

xMovingTarget · October 2019

Best thing to do :

Leave the game. Feedback on the forum is pointless anyways. Just call it a day and move on.
Zos puts all skills in a list and has numbers randomly generated for each skill on how much to buff or nerf. They have no clue how to actually "balance" anything.

Just move on. Like many of us actually did.

I am just here for the memes.

MehrunesFlagon · October 2019

XIIICaesar wrote: »

Honestly, it seems each week this PTS cycle when the patch notes were released that ZOS made changes based on player feedback in the forums. This is looking like a good patch > best patch since Murkmire IMHO.

I hope that is sarcasm.