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Additional Context on U23 Combat Changes

  • master_vanargand
    master_vanargand
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    Elude became trash.
    What does ZOS want to do?
    Mobility? Where is it?
  • Blue_Radium
    Blue_Radium
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    The meta will always inevitably be "max DPS is literally all that matters." The players who care are the ones pushing leaderboards. DPS always needs to be better than it was yesterday for the content to be engaging, for the types of players that balancing affects.

    98% of players don't gain the rotation/weave timing knowledge for balancing to affect damage much. It just makes it harder to do mediocre DPS while not dying. On the other end of things the skill gap will be larger, requiring teams to continue focusing raw DPS with balancing meant to move away from that. Endgame does not permit for anything other than max DPS. If an update makes it genuinely impossible to beat the DPS of the prior update, the top tier trial community is dead. Not sure if the goal is to make doing that harder, to make survivability building required but then introducing extraordinary power creep that permits for that sort of thinking, is a lot of moving pieces with this update.

    Thinking bigger picture, balancing is hard, and I personally like classes to have a lot of flavor. When everything is unbalanced, nothing is, and it's more fun. Look at WoW, homogenized and accessiblitied themselves into the ground, to where the hyper unbalanced, chaotic, often broken vanilla version is going to pave the way forward for the brand and the community.

    Things like... magblade having healing path and funnel health for genuine damage + healing, before the morph changes. Unique and interesting class identity that no longer exists. Just don't want the game to turn into every class having all the same things with animations practically being the largest difference. Good MMOs exist on this weird scale where as they mature they normalize everything and it stops being fun. Case studies are everywhere. ESO's massive set variety makes it nigh-impossible to balance well, which I love. Hope the right middle ground can be struck between fun, and needing 6 stamnecros for your team to be competitive.
  • Jodynn
    Jodynn
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    The change looks like volley

    1 second 1k damage
    1 second 1k healing

    Only one AoE at a time

    But you can't compare directly to each other, it might look nice on paper but in actuality it's caustic with that mindset, you can't have a standard with just numbers without thinking of how a player will act and what will happen in context and situational awareness; also need to analyse what the community desires and what is fun, and the new changes are boring AF for healers.
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • JusticeSouldier
    JusticeSouldier
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    qzqra48sdkot.png
    People laughed when I made this meme. They called me insane.

    WELL WHO IS LAUGHING NOW?! >:'(

    Well, I'm glad he's out - this meme will never actual for me.
    His actions were even worse than worst "experiments" in this patch.
    He didn't understood the game and eso combat was hurt with this very much.
    IF to say about Wheeler...not sure yet but if eso with him going to move into the direction in changes as in Scalebreaker first patchnote.. maybe it's good for the game to free his position for better professional.

    Need to say here - I'm very glad he thinking and saing about plan to improve game performance with steps and suggestions now at a high priority.
    And work much better with community. Very much better.

    Will be extremply glad if he will think about changing strategy in genaral for "small patches".
    With reactions to revealed problem in eso combat in 1-few weeks instead of Q or years.
    Small steps always work better.
    And new dlc or chapters seems good to be more separated from balance patches (sets, ablities, passives, playgrounds).
    With balance as higher priority.
    So it will not be so stressfull if something went very bad if can be fixed quick.


    it's a system.
    And main task for leader is to create most possible effective one.
    And, it's a question of quality of Zenimax team life.
    Edited by JusticeSouldier on August 1, 2019 10:03PM
    all classes. pc platform, dissapointed.
  • flintstone
    flintstone
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    KILMAIM wrote: »
    I spend so little time on this game, it's pathetic. How many years until these new "standards" yield something fruitful? Seriously, what's the timeline? Give the community a realistic outlook. Taking the time to formulate a rationale response to this crock of horse**** is a waste of time. I simply don't care anymore. Congrats!

    Ya, I just got my 6 year badge in July.....I'm thinking a 7th year probably is not in the cards. They have made this game vastly better in many ways over the years so hats off for that.......but this game balance thing has gone on for long enough and I'm tired of it. Most of my guild mates { older people.....40-70 ) are hit hard by all these game changes, and could care less about another PVP balance that destroys their builds........ over and over.

    I guess ZOS does the math though and figures there will be enough PVP players/New players to support the game in the long run.

    Edited by flintstone on August 1, 2019 9:50PM
  • Abyssmol
    Abyssmol
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    Dizzying Swing 14 to 15k took tip with a stun. Please give dizzying swing to magicka class too.
  • Shantu
    Shantu
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    I echo what others have said. In the quest for "balance", I hope the devs do not lose sight of basic concepts like "fun, "interesting" and "unique". This push towards homogeneity makes future math easier to adjust at the price of diversity...which will eventually just become repetitive and boring. The fact that characters will now be forced to drop nerfed class skills in lieu of the same set of generic non-class skills is a case in point. This is neither fun nor interesting, and strips away the feeling of class identity. It may be good for the math...but it's hard to see how it's good for the game.
  • offbymyself
    offbymyself
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    Personally, I want to see a stream where the devs take their PTS changes and go clear vHoF and vMoL on the average build of current players. I want to see how they use these changes and how they feel like it's bettering the game. Don't tell me it's better - show me.
  • Sanguinor2
    Sanguinor2
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    Personally, I want to see a stream where the devs take their PTS changes and go clear vHoF and vMoL on the average build of current players. I want to see how they use these changes and how they feel like it's bettering the game. Don't tell me it's better - show me.

    They likely cant clear vhof hm on live so no Point in doing so with the new changes.
    Politeness is respecting others.
    Courage is doing what is fair.
    Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
    Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
    Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
    Honor is keeping ones word.
  • Lucky28
    Lucky28
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    Shantu wrote: »
    I echo what others have said. In the quest for "balance", I hope the devs do not lose sight of basic concepts like "fun, "interesting" and "unique". This push towards homogeneity makes future math easier to adjust at the price of diversity...which will eventually just become repetitive and boring. The fact that characters will now be forced to drop nerfed class skills in lieu of the same set of generic non-class skills is a case in point. This is neither fun nor interesting, and strips away the feeling of class identity. It may be good for the math...but it's hard to see how it's good for the game.

    yeah, honestly this patch looks exceptionally boring combat wise. i mean my magblade is pretty much unplayable outside of Destro bombing, the 2 ults i mostly use now have *** cast times on them, great thanks.

    i don't know what the *** i'm gonna do with my stam character, vigor got nerfed, rally no longer has hot, cast time on my ult...... guess cram him in a zerg somewhere.

    ...... i don't even know, disappointing patch to say the least.
    Invictus
  • JusticeSouldier
    JusticeSouldier
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    with last pts patchnotes i probably take a break from eso idk for what period.
    like maybe i'll do some trading/crafting or someday will go lvl undaunted for 2 characters who have no it, but any pvp or hard pve.
    fkk it, it doesn't fun to get into face such things as:
    • cast in time ultimates.
    • or new Eclipse both morfs.
    • or new unblockable in addition to undodgeable before Streak.
    • or new shuffle with 5 seconds duration in 5 medium...
    • or for example converting usable now set Veiled Heritance into crap one with a very rare chance to proc it when "interrapting" someone (it could be good if more abilities could be interrapted in game, but nope...the only purpose it can be for can be "defend own relic in battlegrounds...wtf?", i don't understand in what a vacuum Devs exists to do such things).
    • or again nothing done on separating Premade and Randomly created groups in battlegrounds. And any word said about if they plan it someday.
    I take a break, fkk it
    Edited by JusticeSouldier on August 6, 2019 6:11AM
    all classes. pc platform, dissapointed.
  • master_vanargand
    master_vanargand
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    Resolving Vigor is weaker than live server.
    Why is it 4 sec? Can you calculate?
  • f047ys3v3n
    f047ys3v3n
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    Heyo gang!
    we are not averse to the idea that players might need to adjust their current builds such as running more defensive Ultimates rather than offensive ones, or running more survival enhancing sets, rather than pure damage or buff oriented ones.

    So, the fights aren't changing. Virtually all of them will still be massively easier with high dps than with lower dps but more survivable builds.

    However, the biggest DOT's, and damage abilities, that my sorc has and the ones that are most important because they are AOE's and most fights follow a dps the boss cleave the adds mechanic will all be nerfed 30+%. You add 3 new single targed DOT's to make up for this but they are really not that strong so that if I could theoretically run all the DOT's I now have and the new ones I might be slightly ahead. Of course, right now I can't run all of my damage abilities and still have any heals or survivability. To get surge and shield I must abandon frags, volatile familiar, or twilight. I generally do utility roles so, depending on the trial, I leave off volatile or twilight both of which are better than any of your new DOT's btw.

    The net is that ~20% of my dps goes by by unless I slot new abilities and your patch notes seem to indicate that you are expecting me to put on more defensive abilities, buff abilities, and defensive sets? BTW, you also just took away the primary defensive / buff ability used by sorcs, power surge an ability that, even now, with 3 less DOT's, is not used by meta builds because they don't have room for it with all the DOT's.

    You guys should really not write explanations. Proverbs 17:28


    Edited by f047ys3v3n on August 6, 2019 6:42AM
    I am mostly pleased with the current state of ESO. Please do continue to ban cheaters though and you guys have to find out who is duping gold and how because the economy is currently non-functional.
  • Nordic__Knights
    Nordic__Knights
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    With the destruction of every Stam heal that there ever was that was any good for any build and the destruction of healers as well every class I have every build every character I've ever worked on in 5 years is dead now so goodbye
  • Jodynn
    Jodynn
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    With the destruction of every Stam heal that there ever was that was any good for any build and the destruction of healers as well every class I have every build every character I've ever worked on in 5 years is dead now so goodbye

    Stam healers were never really a thing in endgame, non-endgame you can still heal.
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • Nordic__Knights
    Nordic__Knights
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    With the destruction of every Stam heal that there ever was that was any good for any build and the destruction of healers as well every class I have every build every character I've ever worked on in 5 years is dead now so goodbye

    Stam healers were never really a thing in endgame, non-endgame you can still heal.

    Wasn't talking about Stam heels I was talking about the my tanks destroyed my Nightblade destroyed my Stam sorcerer destroyed Stamcrows destroyed I mean it gets a 9k *** vigor after this patch goes live what I was talking in regards to heals what's my actual healers two of them both magic healers both are magic but they're trash every character I've ever put together dispatch has destroyed in one way or the other for five years I've worked around all of this I've done all of that and I'm not doing it no more I'm not remaking 12 new characters
  • Razorback174
    Razorback174
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    Can we all just agree this team has no actual clue what they're doing at this point? I mean just look at that last minute power surge change. Crap for healers because no healer in their right mind builds for crit; Crap for DPS because the heal cooldown is 3 agonizing seconds compared to 1 for crit surge and only procs off of critical heals, but it's the only way to get major sorcery with sorcerer skills.

    The constant use of the term "audit" is an insult when in reality they're throwing in whatever changes they can and seeing what sticks.

    I guess in the end it won't matter since class skills have become objectively the worst to slot thanks to this wonderful balance team at the helm. Balance will finally be achieved when all class identity has been eliminated and the only available role is DPS. That'll be easy to balance around. It's just a shame they're going to destroy the entirety of what made this game unique to get there.
  • master_vanargand
    master_vanargand
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    ZOS is like a dice.
  • Girl_Number8
    Girl_Number8
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    "ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »
    Heyo gang!
    we are not averse to the idea that players might need to adjust their current builds such as running more defensive Ultimates rather than offensive ones, or running more survival enhancing sets, rather than pure damage or buff oriented ones."

    You really need to revisit some of the changes you made. Combat is not smooth or interesting. Tbh as a day 1 player this patch has too many changes and a lack of focus from you. It's losing what made combat so much fun in ESO to begin with.

    The classes don't feel special anymore.

    It would greatly help if you would communicate what direction you're going, Cx. Because this back and forth is stuff, shows an unstable and chaotic future for the game.

    Also, we have been adjusting builds quite often from nerfs.

    Maybe you need to step back and play the game for awhile on all the platforms and see how it really is in PvP and PvE.

    If you did this, it would be 'The Year Of Performance' not dragons.

    Edited by Girl_Number8 on August 7, 2019 3:08PM
  • Nordic__Knights
    Nordic__Knights
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    "ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »
    Heyo gang!
    we are not averse to the idea that players might need to adjust their current builds such as running more defensive Ultimates rather than offensive ones, or running more survival enhancing sets, rather than pure damage or buff oriented ones."

    You really need to revisit some of the changes you made. Combat is not smooth or interesting. Tbh as a day 1 player this patch has too many changes and a lack of focus from you. It's losing what made combat so much fun in ESO to begin with.

    The classes don't feel special anymore.

    It would greatly help if you would communicate what direction you're going, Cx. Because this back and forth is stuff, shows an unstable and chaotic future for the game.

    Also, we have been adjusting builds quite often from nerfs.

    Maybe you need to step back and play the game for awhile on all the platforms and see how it really is in PvP and PvE.

    If you did this, it would be 'The Year Of Performance' not dragons.

    I do not believe that they play the game nor do I believe that they even make a template of any type of a genuine character to test the changes for whatever reasons they want to change things before every even changing it I mean if they think PTS is there a way to check to see if it's running right you're wrong because they don't even know the the slightest potential of what this change we'll do it that potentially time if they're not playing it before and testing it theirselves which obviously they do not
  • Vahrokh
    Vahrokh
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    with last pts patchnotes i probably take a break from eso idk for what period.
    like maybe i'll do some trading/crafting or someday will go lvl undaunted for 2 characters who have no it, but any pvp or hard pve.
    fkk it, it doesn't fun to get into face such things as:
    • cast in time ultimates.
    • or new Eclipse both morfs.
    • or new unblockable in addition to undodgeable before Streak.
    • or new shuffle with 5 seconds duration in 5 medium...
    • or for example converting usable now set Veiled Heritance into crap one with a very rare chance to proc it when "interrapting" someone (it could be good if more abilities could be interrapted in game, but nope...the only purpose it can be for can be "defend own relic in battlegrounds...wtf?", i don't understand in what a vacuum Devs exists to do such things).
    • or again nothing done on separating Premade and Randomly created groups in battlegrounds. And any word said about if they plan it someday.
    I take a break, fkk it

    I have unsubbed today.

    Totally not worth playing now.

    1nf0udka29ep.png
  • Marteene
    Marteene
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    @ZOS_BrianWheeler Could these sweeping changes portend a new skill line or change to the combat mechanics next patch? More importantly is this all an intended outcome or part of a development path to a more robust goal?
  • Eiregirl
    Eiregirl
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    "Play your way" ummmm yeah hmmm sure.

    "The Elder Scrolls Online is a world without limits, meaning you can play how you want to play." Okay...sure thing until forced not to.

    I have not done trials in a very long time and I do not mind trial gear being good and slightly better than crafted gear but in ESO I have always loved the feeling of getting my crafting to max and making the gear I need to tackle any content in the game. On all of my characters at least one of the sets I use has always been a crafted set and I hope it stays that way.
  • Nyqwont
    Nyqwont
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    How about you go over to esologs.com and have a look at what single class dominates pve dps, and which classes not only don't make the list but aren't invited to trials because of where they're at before you go ahead and nerf their skills next time. It seems like a pretty easy way of knowing where *not* to start but it's pretty clear you didn't do that. Smh
  • KageNin
    KageNin
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    How about making a plan instead of grabing at random aspects of the game and ruining everything?
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