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[AND AGAIN!] REMOVE PREMADES FROM BATTLEGROUNDS QUEUE!
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BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭Performance based match making is easily exploitable
That's why you base it off of multiple stats, like an actual performance ranking system...
Base it off a combination of win/loss, kill/death/assist, match score, etc. Make it per game mode, and weight stats depending on the game mode.
Tht will make it even easier to exploit0 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Performance based match making is easily exploitable
That's why you base it off of multiple stats, like an actual performance ranking system...
Base it off a combination of win/loss, kill/death/assist, match score, etc. Make it per game mode, and weight stats depending on the game mode.
Tht will make it even easier to exploit
And with that I know you have no idea what you're talking about. Considering the current MMR implementation literally just uses your medal score, ie the points you earn at the end of a match, anything like what I've described is far better in preventing exploitation. Especially if it's kept hidden, which it would be.1 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Performance based match making is easily exploitable
That's why you base it off of multiple stats, like an actual performance ranking system...
Base it off a combination of win/loss, kill/death/assist, match score, etc. Make it per game mode, and weight stats depending on the game mode.
Tht will make it even easier to exploit
Since we're on a new page, I'll also say this in an entire new comment. Actual performance ranking systems used in real sports are so complicated that they need entire papers to explain. They're so complicated because different stats are weighted differently based on the player and context, so much so that you actually need to be walked through it in order to understand it.
While video games are simpler, they're no different in principle, especially ones using multiple stats, like I've described. Tell me, when you need to read a multiple-paged paper just to understand how you're being ranked, how are players going to exploit it? How will players know how this stat affects your ranking, versus that stat? What if there's hidden stats that Zenimax didn't mention? (There will be hidden stats.)0 -
MaxJrFTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This guy is the personification of bias and self entitlement. I'm out.
"I don't know you, and I don't care to know you."
―Ulrich Leland, 3E 4333 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You obviously never heard of stat padding
How the *** does stat padding work when you don't even know how much a certain stat contributes to your ranking, whether it contributes at all, or what other stats also contribute to it? That's what you seem to be missing.
Again, all stats are individually weighted such that they contribute to your ranking in different amounts. This weighting could change depending on the game mode, to reflect the objective of that game mode. Certain stats could also be tied together, such that you need to do well in one stat in order to do well in another. Certain stats could also be left out of the description, leaving us guessing as to whether a stat actually matters, or not suspecting it at all.
You're grasping at straws here, my dude. Also want to mention that stat padding is already an issue. The current MMR implementation literally just uses your medal score, ie your points shown on the leaderboard, to determine your performance. Someone who wants to inflate their MMR can abandon their team and hardcore focus the objective, someone who wants to deflate their MMR can abandon the objective and throw the match for their team.
A more complicated system, like the one I've described, makes stat padding exponentially harder than the current system, because it has more variables you need to control. Some of the variables might also oppose each other.
@MaxJrFTW About at that point myself, holy *** ***.1 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭Here is one major flaw you’re overlooking you split a 4 man premade 2 will always end up teamed together and the other 2 may or may not be same team as in bgs will then be 6 vs 3 vs 3 or 6 v 2 v 4 in any given game mode this will be the majority of matches1
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Deathlord92✭✭✭✭✭
✭I know some players like to play together and that’s fine. For bgs there should be a solo option to play against other random players because it really is unfair when im on my own put up against fully geared meta group the only players I have our randoms under geared inexperienced etc.2 -
Vortigaunt✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I have a feeling this anti-premade phenomenon plays in the same league like all those pro-faction lock hipsters. Matches play like premade matches anyways, when theres enough top mmr players and supporters/healers across the 3 teams even when everyone is solo queuing. You dont need voicecom to sync ults, you dont need voicecom to know that it is good for you to be close to your healer. As a matter of fact, some of the most complained about premades never used voicecom at all.
My personal observation is, people want to simulate the chaotic cyrodiil experience in BG all over again, where even average players can find enough easy kills to feel special (as long as they play the right class), despite showing zero awareness of their surrounding and being mostly incapable of teamplay. Those same people you see now crying for premades to be removed will be the same that will cry for the nerfs/removal of healers and/or removal of MMR when they realize they need to find some new excuse to blame their lack of results on... pro faction lock mindset.
I personally couldn't care less, I enjoy soloQ just as much as premade but in the end I would miss premade clashes a lot because they're the only venue for high calibre PvP in this game right now and extremely fun when evenly matches teams meet each other.
I love soloQ, I have played 500 soloQ matches just in the past 8 weeks with my mag necro. I have never once felt the need to complain about premades during those 500 matches and still have a 50% winrate despite facing a lot of premades. This thread is so hysterical, almost fanatic & hostile - I think it says a lot more about the mindset of the people posting here compared to the actual state of BGs.
You are so cool! Huge win rate!
If only the rest of the forums would know the reality about mister mojo like we on PC EU do
But yeah, so: you’d miss premade clashes? No problem, get your premade friends and queue up for premade only games. There you can solely enjoy these clashes.
And no, even when everyone is solo qing in high mmr it’s hard to do anything against a sweat premade with magplar bots unless you win the rng game and get a dedicated healer or a support setup. And even then, it simply isn’t fun. You might find tank fest that go up to like 200 score for a full 10 minutes fun, seeing what builds you play, but most people don’t.
And drop the “I’m a pro mlg ELDER SCROLLS player” act. This game is braindead. Don’t act as if it requires some 400 IQ brain to win matches in high mmr when all it takes is a meta class and a weak link in the enemy team (which always exists).
Just lol dude. You’re not better than anyone here, drop the act.Edited by Vortigaunt on July 31, 2019 1:03PM2 -
ChunkyCat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭When people say:
“how are you going to make sure it’s balanced?
all I read is:
“how are you going to make sure I don’t lose?”1 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭Short and simple BGs is 4playersv4playersv4players just like any multiplayer pvp game you join a match solo it’s is rng if u get a good or a bad team a premade group has the advantage of being 4 players or 4 friends who want to pvp together and can coordinate but that doesn’t mean they are unbeatable.
As the main idea is wanting to solo que for a BG match without premades let’s have 2 version of BGs 4v4v4 and 1v1v1. This solution solves all problems without adding any complex algorithms.2 -
iCaliban✭✭✭✭✭
✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »
MMR is a joke right now anyway. Having 2 good players on 1 team is sufficient to absolutely devastate the potatoes who end up filling up the high MMR games because there simply arent enough good players to make teams.
Guys, this is an MMO, solo players should not be preferenced over players who play together. Just because you want to run solo in a group game made doesnt mean zos should punish those who play the game the way they intended.
Before all the forum warriors come crying, I play solo or duo 99% of the time.Edited by iCaliban on July 31, 2019 3:16PM7 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »
Now tht brings the other issue skill levels to each group without using mmr you will have new players against vet players still a mismatch as well as factor that premade can potentially b split among 3 teams effectively the team 2 end up on the other 2 from the premade will no doubt team with their friends effectively making it a 6 man group. If you’ve played other multiplayer pvp games you always find stacked premade groups against random groups. Also by removing mar and premades you bring in rng to grouping 12 similarly matched players can randomly be shuffled into for instance 4 healers vs 4 dps vs 3dps and 1 healer or if that’s too complicated to follow you can have 12 men shuffle into groups say 1skilled player 3 new players vs 4 skilled players vs 2 skilled players and 2 new players. Further still if the match starts and every team is not filled you can still face 4v3v3 or any of the millions of combinations. So to conclude removing premades will not really balance BGs. Sure they can create a complex algorithm to try to balance teams but that still leaves a 33.3 repeating% chance 1 group will still be superior with or without premades and mmr
Edit. Autocorrect fixesEdited by BattleAxe on July 31, 2019 3:18PM1 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »
MMR is a joke right now anyway. Having 2 good players on 1 team is sufficient to absolutely devastate the potatoes who end up filling up the high MMR games because there simply arent enough good players to make teams.
Guys, this is an MMO, solo players should not be preferenced over players who play together. Just because you want to run solo in a group game made doesnt mean zos should punish those who play the game the way they intended.
Before all the forum warriors come crying, I play solo or duo 99% of the time.
Duo is still a premade fyi . I have run a mag sorc duo where games were a 2v4v4 for the entire time against really high MMR players and it was pretty manageable.
Btw solo play is intended which is why you can enter cyrodil solo and queue solo for bgs as well.Edited by PhoenixGrey on July 31, 2019 3:41PM2 -
DisgracefulMind✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »
MMR is a joke right now anyway. Having 2 good players on 1 team is sufficient to absolutely devastate the potatoes who end up filling up the high MMR games because there simply arent enough good players to make teams.
Guys, this is an MMO, solo players should not be preferenced over players who play together. Just because you want to run solo in a group game made doesnt mean zos should punish those who play the game the way they intended.
Before all the forum warriors come crying, I play solo or duo 99% of the time.
Duo is still a premade fyi . I have run a mag sorc duo where games were a 2v4v4 for the entire time against really high MMR players and it was pretty manageable.
Btw solo play is intended which is why you can enter cyrodil solo and queue solo for bgs as well.
It's an MMO. People who want to enjoy the game playing in pairs shouldn't be punished for choosing to play an MMO together. I play solo a lot as well, so don't jump down my throat, but I just think the notion that people can't play together, or if they do they get super long queues isn't healthy. I completely agree that a full-made 4-man premade needs to be matched against others like it, and that would include 3-mans as well, but why are we trying to punish the duos too? You think it's not frustrating to be in a duo and be up against multiple premades? We get it too.
BGs aren't just for solo players. Cyrodiil isn't just for solo players. Solo has a place in both, but in both it also comes with the fact that you're not, nor should you, going to always be going up against other solo players. Again, this is a multiplayer game that has the option to be played solo.Edited by DisgracefulMind on July 31, 2019 3:49PMUnfortunate magicka warden main.
PC/NA Server
Fairweather Friends
Retired to baby bgs forever. Leave me alone.4 -
Lord_Eomer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Remove pre-mades or stop allowing more than 2 to group together
Pre mades have no comparison with Random PUGS1 -
iCaliban✭✭✭✭✭
✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »
MMR is a joke right now anyway. Having 2 good players on 1 team is sufficient to absolutely devastate the potatoes who end up filling up the high MMR games because there simply arent enough good players to make teams.
Guys, this is an MMO, solo players should not be preferenced over players who play together. Just because you want to run solo in a group game made doesnt mean zos should punish those who play the game the way they intended.
Before all the forum warriors come crying, I play solo or duo 99% of the time.
Duo is still a premade fyi . I have run a mag sorc duo where games were a 2v4v4 for the entire time against really high MMR players and it was pretty manageable.
Btw solo play is intended which is why you can enter cyrodil solo and queue solo for bgs as well.
I didnt say solo wasnt intended. But MMO's pretty expressly focus on getting players to do stuff together.
Really? Duo is premade to you phoenix? Idk. If you arent in comms coordinating ulti dumps, I think "premade" gets thrown around way too easy. Even when I am in a group and in comms, most of the time its just to BS around and talk with friends.
Edited by iCaliban on July 31, 2019 3:54PM3 -
JusticeSouldier✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I have a feeling this anti-premade phenomenon plays in the same league like all those pro-faction lock hipsters. Matches play like premade matches anyways, when theres enough top mmr players and supporters/healers across the 3 teams even when everyone is solo queuing. You dont need voicecom to sync ults, you dont need voicecom to know that it is good for you to be close to your healer. As a matter of fact, some of the most complained about premades never used voicecom at all.
My personal observation is, people want to simulate the chaotic cyrodiil experience in BG all over again, where even average players can find enough easy kills to feel special (as long as they play the right class), despite showing zero awareness of their surrounding and being mostly incapable of teamplay. Those same people you see now crying for premades to be removed will be the same that will cry for the nerfs/removal of healers and/or removal of MMR when they realize they need to find some new excuse to blame their lack of results on... pro faction lock mindset.
I personally couldn't care less, I enjoy soloQ just as much as premade but in the end I would miss premade clashes a lot because they're the only venue for high calibre PvP in this game right now and extremely fun when evenly matches teams meet each other.
I love soloQ, I have played 500 soloQ matches just in the past 8 weeks with my mag necro. I have never once felt the need to complain about premades during those 500 matches and still have a 50% winrate despite facing a lot of premades. This thread is so hysterical, almost fanatic & hostile - I think it says a lot more about the mindset of the people posting here compared to the actual state of BGs.
Woohoo! Good for you! Boy, you sure sound “hysterical, almost fanatic & hostile” in your critique of this thread.
I'm providing an honest opinion in a somewhat civilized form. I'm not calling anyone "psychopath" or worse, no matter what teamsize they run with in any gaming evnironment (like seen in this thread).
Here get something from hysterical, almost fanatic & hostile me:)
Terms means nothing if not based on something.
And here u have some basement, because I and many others write about the problem, and ask to resolve it.
With tenacity and emotional expressions.
[snip]
In real life, laws punish such people. Prevent society to not be ruined with their actions.
But in eso, in battlegrounds, we have a perfect envinronment for them to do that.
And it kills it's population, it kills eso reputation in general, and it's a negative filtration for population.
And my solution to remove premades - is a bad news for such people.
At this forum there are many examples how they react and what they say to defend own inability to be in the same conditions as others.
Fair means same laws in that envirnment for everyone.
But it's only first step, like step backward to simplicity.
We, hysterical fanatics;), who like Competition, wan't to be able to queue as premade vs premades.
When it will be available. Later. It would be great. It's a way to grow up as a team also.
Current bgs system is absolutly counterproductive in this aspect.
Few years in a raw. TIred to wait.
[edited for non-constructive/baiting comment]Edited by ZOS_RogerJ on August 1, 2019 1:02AMall classes. pc platform, dissapointed.0 -
DisgracefulMind✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭JusticeSouldier wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I have a feeling this anti-premade phenomenon plays in the same league like all those pro-faction lock hipsters. Matches play like premade matches anyways, when theres enough top mmr players and supporters/healers across the 3 teams even when everyone is solo queuing. You dont need voicecom to sync ults, you dont need voicecom to know that it is good for you to be close to your healer. As a matter of fact, some of the most complained about premades never used voicecom at all.
My personal observation is, people want to simulate the chaotic cyrodiil experience in BG all over again, where even average players can find enough easy kills to feel special (as long as they play the right class), despite showing zero awareness of their surrounding and being mostly incapable of teamplay. Those same people you see now crying for premades to be removed will be the same that will cry for the nerfs/removal of healers and/or removal of MMR when they realize they need to find some new excuse to blame their lack of results on... pro faction lock mindset.
I personally couldn't care less, I enjoy soloQ just as much as premade but in the end I would miss premade clashes a lot because they're the only venue for high calibre PvP in this game right now and extremely fun when evenly matches teams meet each other.
I love soloQ, I have played 500 soloQ matches just in the past 8 weeks with my mag necro. I have never once felt the need to complain about premades during those 500 matches and still have a 50% winrate despite facing a lot of premades. This thread is so hysterical, almost fanatic & hostile - I think it says a lot more about the mindset of the people posting here compared to the actual state of BGs.
Woohoo! Good for you! Boy, you sure sound “hysterical, almost fanatic & hostile” in your critique of this thread.
I'm providing an honest opinion in a somewhat civilized form. I'm not calling anyone "psychopath" or worse, no matter what teamsize they run with in any gaming evnironment (like seen in this thread).
Here get something from hysterical, almost fanatic & hostile me:)
Terms means nothing if not based on something.
And here u have some basement, because I and many others write about the problem, and ask to resolve it.
With tenacity and emotional expressions.
[snip]
In real life, laws punish such people. Prevent society to not be ruined with their actions.
But in eso, in battlegrounds, we have a perfect envinronment for them to do that.
And it kills it's population, it kills eso reputation in general, and it's a negative filtration for population.
And my solution to remove premades - is a bad news for such people.
At this forum there are many examples how they react and what they say to defend own inability to be in the same conditions as others.
Fair means same laws in that envirnment for everyone.
But it's only first step, like step backward to simplicity.
We, hysterical fanatics;), who like Competition, wan't to be able to queue as premade vs premades.
When it will be available. Later. It would be great. It's a way to grow up as a team also.
Current bgs system is absolutly counterproductive in this aspect.
Few years in a raw. TIred to wait.
You're comparing people who enjoy playing in numbers to people who have severe antisocial personality disorders. While I don't agree with 4-man premades in bgs either, and it is frustrating, comparing people who do so to those who have committed extreme atrocities to not just the human race but also to any living creature around them is absurd and wrong. People who enjoy having an advantage and "pugstomping" are not psychopaths (and if they are in their real nature, that has nothing to do with a video game). Psychopathy refers to someone with an antisocial personality disorder who lacks many traits and characteristics that make humans the emotional creatures that we are.
I understand that the premade issue is a real one in BGs, but there's a huge issue in this world where terms for psychological disorders are consistently misused, so let's not perpetuate that issue any further by doing so on a video game forum. It's counterproductive.
Another thing I would like to point out is that since ZoS hasn't changed the ability for premades to queue with each other, it is reasonable to assume that people are not "breaking laws" by using the system that is given to them. Again, I agree something needs to be done, but let's be civil about it and not compare people who are playing a game with their friends to serial killers, rapists, and all other sorts of deranged human beings.Edited by ZOS_RogerJ on August 1, 2019 1:02AMUnfortunate magicka warden main.
PC/NA Server
Fairweather Friends
Retired to baby bgs forever. Leave me alone.5 -
Shanehere✭✭✭
Really? Duo is premade to you phoenix? Idk. If you arent in comms coordinating ulti dumps, I think "premade" gets thrown around way too easy. Even when I am in a group and in comms, most of the time its just to BS around and talk with friends.
I agree with this. There's a difference between a group of players in discord coordinating ulti dumps and stacking together in a battleground and a group of players that are joking around in comms and doing their own thing in the BG. There's also just common sense players who are solo queueing and if they notice one of their teammates drop an ult on a group, they drop theres too, making everyone immediately thinks they're a pre made. They all get clumped together to fit the narrative.1 -
Jodynn✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'd prefer to see a CP BG return, premades, whatever, it's annoying but, if I get actually tilted I'd just make my own.
What I would really like would be a duel tournament BG, like arena or something in Oblivion, would be neat and fun to -get- something for duelling.
People love watching me in Cyrodil, could even spectate the sport for bystanders or something IDK.Jodynn PC NA
PvE and PvP MagDK
The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.0 -
JusticeSouldier✭✭✭✭DisgracefulMind wrote: »but let's be civil about it and not compare people who are playing a game with their friends to serial killers, rapists, and all other sorts of deranged human beings.
why we should to not compare?
It's an good way to show how awfull something is.
Comparing, metaphor etc are an instruments to show it.
I'm pretty sure i compared right.
Not matter how uncomfortable this truth is for people who prefer to hide it behind different mind constructions.
Coming back to topic of the thread.
Allowing queue for Premade groups vs Randomly created groups is the same as to allow participants or the Olimpic Games to take part in Paraolimpic Games.
First step is to deny premade groups in battlegrounds.
Second step - create separated queue for premade groups.Edited by JusticeSouldier on July 31, 2019 6:34PMall classes. pc platform, dissapointed.0 -
iCaliban✭✭✭✭✭
✭JusticeSouldier wrote: »DisgracefulMind wrote: »but let's be civil about it and not compare people who are playing a game with their friends to serial killers, rapists, and all other sorts of deranged human beings.
why we should to not compare?
It's an good way to show how awfull something is.
Comparing, metaphor etc are an instruments to show it.
I'm pretty sure i compared right.
Not matter how uncomfortable this truth is for people who prefer to hide it behind different mind constructions.
You are beyond ridiculous and need to get a life. There is nothing comparable about people playing with friends and so they can win (the point of a game is to win) to people who actively harm others. Premade players dont "enjoy or get off" on pug stomping. Most players dont enjoy that.
Premades are so heavily penalized by wait time that very few exist, so forcing premades to only fight premades will result in ZERO actual games for them. There simply arent enough actual teams to make it work.2
