[AND AGAIN!] REMOVE PREMADES FROM BATTLEGROUNDS QUEUE!

wheem_ESO · July 2019

Reverb wrote: »

So because you prefer to play a multiplayer game solo, you think every one else should have to as well?

I swear, some people have the worst arguments for trying to justify their huge advantages over other players.

Most people don't want premade teams to be completely disabled, we just want them to be facing off against other premade teams, rather than solo queued players (who may even be outnumbered by the tryhards). I remain perplexed by how people can tolerate constantly running premade teams in BGs when almost all of their opposition consists of solo queued players without healers, and possibly not even full teams. How are you not falling asleep at your keyboard?

Shanehere · July 2019

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

First solution is in title and original, post.
All solutions are in thread.
If u prefer to read only "original post" or title and immediately write (and ignoring Solution itself again and again which is to Deny premades in queue) - I can't help u.
it's responsibility of your parents, school etc. Not my.

Also, why u asking me where is corellation?
Why I should explain u that both cases are identical?
We have Olimpic games, and we have Paralympic Games because everyone understand that it's 2 different worlds.
Premade vs randoms in battlegrounds is like simulation of "competition" if both Olimpic and Paraolimpic Games be one "queue" with guess who will be winners there always in such case...
It's sick.

Those aren't solutions, those are responses to your emotional grief. Eliminating the ability to queue as a group for battlegrounds immediately and figuring it out later is not a solution, a solution would be separate battleground queues, which you did not mention in your original post, but again, is what you mentioned in response to others. Your post is the precursor to the discussion thread, and it had no solutions until people started arguing with you. That should be in your original post, but in reality you just wanted a place to rage.

And I am asking you why there is a correlation because it's such a radical statement to make about a video game, and to truly believe something like that warrants continued explanation because claiming that premade groups going up against solo players in an ESO battleground match is the same as a person competing against a physcially or mentally disabled person in real life is likely an unpopular opinion.

Your differentiation between Olympics and Paralympics is correct I guess, but it definitely is not the same as ESO Battleground Queues... but I don't think I'm even going to attempt trying to argue with you anymore, you also compared people who want to group up with friends and play battlegrounds as "psychopaths" and compared them to the likes of killers and other criminals.

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

We. should. not. think. about. psychopaths who's enjoy is to stomp randoms instead real fights.
Same as we shouldn't care about needs of froudsters, killers or another criminal elements in real world.

I guess you should just go quest and wait to see if they make separate queues.

JusticeSouldier · July 2019

Shanehere wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

First solution is in title and original, post.
All solutions are in thread.
If u prefer to read only "original post" or title and immediately write (and ignoring Solution itself again and again which is to Deny premades in queue) - I can't help u.
it's responsibility of your parents, school etc. Not my.

Also, why u asking me where is corellation?
Why I should explain u that both cases are identical?
We have Olimpic games, and we have Paralympic Games because everyone understand that it's 2 different worlds.
Premade vs randoms in battlegrounds is like simulation of "competition" if both Olimpic and Paraolimpic Games be one "queue" with guess who will be winners there always in such case...
It's sick.

Those aren't solutions, those are responses to your emotional grief. Eliminating the ability to queue as a group for battlegrounds immediately and figuring it out later is not a solution, a solution would be separate battleground queues, which you did not mention in your original post, but again, is what you mentioned in response to others. Your post is the precursor to the discussion thread, and it had no solutions until people started arguing with you. That should be in your original post, but in reality you just wanted a place to rage.

And I am asking you why there is a correlation because it's such a radical statement to make about a video game, and to truly believe something like that warrants continued explanation because claiming that premade groups going up against solo players in an ESO battleground match is the same as a person competing against a physcially or mentally disabled person in real life is likely an unpopular opinion.

Your differentiation between Olympics and Paralympics is correct I guess, but it definitely is not the same as ESO Battleground Queues... but I don't think I'm even going to attempt trying to argue with you anymore, you also compared people who want to group up with friends and play battlegrounds as "psychopaths" and compared them to the likes of killers and other criminals.

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

We. should. not. think. about. psychopaths who's enjoy is to stomp randoms instead real fights.
Same as we shouldn't care about needs of froudsters, killers or another criminal elements in real world.

I guess you should just go quest and wait to see if they make separate queues.

U're somehow right. It's a place to rage also.
With a few years basement.
With arguments and temporary solution which can be implemented very fast if they can listen us.
And actually opening way for another solutions.

If to say about me personally, It's my nature to not be indifferent.
U can name it emotional but it will not be correct to be exact.
Every time, when something going on in a very bad, toxic way I search what is wrong and how to fix that.
If I see how, I say how and I'm trying to do everything to bring that to life.

Title of this thread - is Solution for resolving described here many times garbage.
For me and everyone in eso it's great solution.
Even for u not matter if u like it now.
Because it will force u to grow up your personal skill in battlegrounds to be competitive instead of easy way to just "team up with friends" and enjoy of winning vs randoms.

DisgracefulMind · July 2019

As someone who almost exclusively plays BGs w/ my bf in a little duo in our casual freetime (I'm a full-time student, I don't have a crazy amount of time), I don't want to be forced to play BGs only solo. That being said, I think limited the size of group that can queue to 2 is a really good compromise for people who want to BG with their friends, and those that want to BG solo.

yodased · July 2019

Adjust battle spirit to scale with team composition. 4 individuals get 0 battle spirit while 4man group queue get 75% battle spirit 2 man groups get 50% battle spirit. Or something like that.

That way if You queue as a 2 man or a 4man and you go against randos it's tipped in the random favor but really the premade should stomp them.

jcm2606 · July 2019

Group matching needs to be moved over to its own variable in the matching calculation, instead of being done by inflating the MMR of premades groups. Right there, premades will be separated from solo queues, since this new variable only applies to premades, but they both coexist inside the same queue, which allows matching based on group size to be a thing.

Have groups match against other groups that are +-1 member from their own, with 1 dangling solo queue that has a high enough MMR to match with them. So 4-mans can only match against other 4-mans, or a 3-man with 1 solo queue. 3-mans can only match against a 3-man with 1 solo queue, a 4-man, or 2 duos. Duos can only match against a 3-man with 1 solo queue, 2 other duos, or multiple solo queues with high enough MMR to match with them.

Mark premades with unique icons in the leaderboard (F5) so that everybody knows who's a premade, and so that the 1 dangling solo queue knows who to follow. If not for other teams, mark them for your own team, for the sake of that 1 dangling solo queue.

Boom, easy way to address premades, while not ruining the fun for those duos and occasional 3-mans who just wanna have some fun together.

BattleAxe · July 2019

I guess nobody hear has played battlefield or call of duty. Also denying a premade group from queuing for BG’s goes against play how you want. the players who go in as a premade are playing the way they want.

But they are coordinated and have mics.
Get on mic yourself and coordinate your team.

Mojomonkeyman · July 2019

I have a feeling this anti-premade phenomenon plays in the same league like all those pro-faction lock hipsters. Matches play like premade matches anyways, when theres enough top mmr players and supporters/healers across the 3 teams even when everyone is solo queuing. You dont need voicecom to sync ults, you dont need voicecom to know that it is good for you to be close to your healer. As a matter of fact, some of the most complained about premades never used voicecom at all.

My personal observation is, people want to simulate the chaotic cyrodiil experience in BG all over again, where even average players can find enough easy kills to feel special (as long as they play the right class), despite showing zero awareness of their surrounding and being mostly incapable of teamplay. Those same people you see now crying for premades to be removed will be the same that will cry for the nerfs/removal of healers and/or removal of MMR when they realize they need to find some new excuse to blame their lack of results on... pro faction lock mindset.

I personally couldn't care less, I enjoy soloQ just as much as premade but in the end I would miss premade clashes a lot because they're the only venue for high calibre PvP in this game right now and extremely fun when evenly matches teams meet each other.

I love soloQ, I have played 500 soloQ matches just in the past 8 weeks with my mag necro. I have never once felt the need to complain about premades during those 500 matches and still have a 50% winrate despite facing a lot of premades. This thread is so hysterical, almost fanatic & hostile - I think it says a lot more about the mindset of the people posting here compared to the actual state of BGs.

maxjapank · July 2019

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I have a feeling this anti-premade phenomenon plays in the same league like all those pro-faction lock hipsters. Matches play like premade matches anyways, when theres enough top mmr players and supporters/healers across the 3 teams even when everyone is solo queuing. You dont need voicecom to sync ults, you dont need voicecom to know that it is good for you to be close to your healer. As a matter of fact, some of the most complained about premades never used voicecom at all.

My personal observation is, people want to simulate the chaotic cyrodiil experience in BG all over again, where even average players can find enough easy kills to feel special (as long as they play the right class), despite showing zero awareness of their surrounding and being mostly incapable of teamplay. Those same people you see now crying for premades to be removed will be the same that will cry for the nerfs/removal of healers and/or removal of MMR when they realize they need to find some new excuse to blame their lack of results on... pro faction lock mindset.

I personally couldn't care less, I enjoy soloQ just as much as premade but in the end I would miss premade clashes a lot because they're the only venue for high calibre PvP in this game right now and extremely fun when evenly matches teams meet each other.

I love soloQ, I have played 500 soloQ matches just in the past 8 weeks with my mag necro. I have never once felt the need to complain about premades during those 500 matches and still have a 50% winrate despite facing a lot of premades. This thread is so hysterical, almost fanatic & hostile - I think it says a lot more about the mindset of the people posting here compared to the actual state of BGs.

Woohoo! Good for you! Boy, you sure sound “hysterical, almost fanatic & hostile” in your critique of this thread.

Mojomonkeyman · July 2019

maxjapank wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I have a feeling this anti-premade phenomenon plays in the same league like all those pro-faction lock hipsters. Matches play like premade matches anyways, when theres enough top mmr players and supporters/healers across the 3 teams even when everyone is solo queuing. You dont need voicecom to sync ults, you dont need voicecom to know that it is good for you to be close to your healer. As a matter of fact, some of the most complained about premades never used voicecom at all.

My personal observation is, people want to simulate the chaotic cyrodiil experience in BG all over again, where even average players can find enough easy kills to feel special (as long as they play the right class), despite showing zero awareness of their surrounding and being mostly incapable of teamplay. Those same people you see now crying for premades to be removed will be the same that will cry for the nerfs/removal of healers and/or removal of MMR when they realize they need to find some new excuse to blame their lack of results on... pro faction lock mindset.

I personally couldn't care less, I enjoy soloQ just as much as premade but in the end I would miss premade clashes a lot because they're the only venue for high calibre PvP in this game right now and extremely fun when evenly matches teams meet each other.

I love soloQ, I have played 500 soloQ matches just in the past 8 weeks with my mag necro. I have never once felt the need to complain about premades during those 500 matches and still have a 50% winrate despite facing a lot of premades. This thread is so hysterical, almost fanatic & hostile - I think it says a lot more about the mindset of the people posting here compared to the actual state of BGs.

Woohoo! Good for you! Boy, you sure sound “hysterical, almost fanatic & hostile” in your critique of this thread.

I'm providing an honest opinion in a somewhat civilized form. I'm not calling anyone "psychopath" or worse, no matter what teamsize they run with in any gaming evnironment (like seen in this thread).

jcm2606 · July 2019

BattleAxe wrote: »

I guess nobody hear has played battlefield or call of duty. Also denying a premade group from queuing for BG’s goes against play how you want. the players who go in as a premade are playing the way they want.

But they are coordinated and have mics.
Get on mic yourself and coordinate your team.

PC doesn't have voice chat.

BattleAxe · July 2019

jcm2606 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

I guess nobody hear has played battlefield or call of duty. Also denying a premade group from queuing for BG’s goes against play how you want. the players who go in as a premade are playing the way they want.

But they are coordinated and have mics.
Get on mic yourself and coordinate your team.

PC doesn't have voice chat.

No but you have apps that have voice chat access FYI. To the guy stating pro faction lock people also want premade removed from bgs I am for faction lock but against premade being barred from bgs

jcm2606 · July 2019

BattleAxe wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

I guess nobody hear has played battlefield or call of duty. Also denying a premade group from queuing for BG’s goes against play how you want. the players who go in as a premade are playing the way they want.

But they are coordinated and have mics.
Get on mic yourself and coordinate your team.

PC doesn't have voice chat.

No but you have apps that have voice chat access FYI. To the guy stating pro faction lock people also want premade removed from bgs I am for faction lock but against premade being barred from bgs

So your solution is to have random people on your team(s) download Discord or whatever, just to have instant communication in a game, even though it shouldn't be an issue? Yeah, good luck with that.

Premades shouldn't be matching against solo queues, period. Whether they outright remove premades, move premades over to their own queue, or do what I suggested and change the match maker to properly match groups with other groups, I don't care. Would prefer to have a solution that still allows premade grouping, but if it was between premade grouping and actually having fun in matches, I'll choose fun every single time.

Being stomped over and over by a premade with the only healer in the entire match, who are also coordinating ultimates, while I have a team of complete randoms who are barely coordinate themselves despite me calling out who and what to target in text chat, is not fun. I don't know about you, but I play to have fun. Give me a good match with challenging opponents, that's fun. But a complete premade who are basically synonymous with a meat grinder is not fun, and will never be fun.

BattleAxe · July 2019

jcm2606 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

I guess nobody hear has played battlefield or call of duty. Also denying a premade group from queuing for BG’s goes against play how you want. the players who go in as a premade are playing the way they want.

But they are coordinated and have mics.
Get on mic yourself and coordinate your team.

PC doesn't have voice chat.

No but you have apps that have voice chat access FYI. To the guy stating pro faction lock people also want premade removed from bgs I am for faction lock but against premade being barred from bgs

So your solution is to have random people on your team(s) download Discord or whatever, just to have instant communication in a game, even though it shouldn't be an issue? Seems legit.

Premades shouldn't be matching against solo queues, period. Whether they outright remove premades, move premades over to their own queue, or do what I suggested and change the match maker to properly match groups with other groups, I don't care. Would prefer to have a solution that still allows premade grouping, but if it was between premade grouping and actually having fun in matches, I'll choose fun every single time.

So your fun is more important than say other players who play as premades

jcm2606 · July 2019

BattleAxe wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

I guess nobody hear has played battlefield or call of duty. Also denying a premade group from queuing for BG’s goes against play how you want. the players who go in as a premade are playing the way they want.

But they are coordinated and have mics.
Get on mic yourself and coordinate your team.

PC doesn't have voice chat.

No but you have apps that have voice chat access FYI. To the guy stating pro faction lock people also want premade removed from bgs I am for faction lock but against premade being barred from bgs

So your solution is to have random people on your team(s) download Discord or whatever, just to have instant communication in a game, even though it shouldn't be an issue? Seems legit.

Premades shouldn't be matching against solo queues, period. Whether they outright remove premades, move premades over to their own queue, or do what I suggested and change the match maker to properly match groups with other groups, I don't care. Would prefer to have a solution that still allows premade grouping, but if it was between premade grouping and actually having fun in matches, I'll choose fun every single time.

So your fun is more important than say other players who play as premades

1. The majority has the vote, and in this case the vast majority are solo queues. My own fun doesn't matter, the community's fun does, and currently the community is not having fun. I'm just letting you know where I stand on the issue.

2. Have you not read my suggestion? I'm advocating for an overhaul of group matching that keeps grouping in place, but balances it out so solo queues don't go up against premades unless absolutely necessary, while also having a premade on the solo queue's team so the coordination balances out. In tandem with an overhaul of MMR, this should make the premade experience better, because if you haven't noticed, premades don't like pub stomping either.

PhoenixGrey · July 2019

Reverb wrote: »

So because you prefer to play a multiplayer game solo, you think every one else should have to as well?

Yes that's the point. I dont see anything wrong in not wanting a carry premade

But I get that some players are only good enough to just light attack from range and ZOS needs to cater to such individuals

BattleAxe · July 2019

How exactly do u plan to balance teams after removing premades

jcm2606 · July 2019

BattleAxe wrote: »

How exactly do u plan to balance teams after removing premades

Read. My damn. Suggestion.

EDIT: Here, *** it.

Group matching needs to be moved over to its own variable in the matching calculation, instead of being done by inflating the MMR of premades groups. Right there, premades will be separated from solo queues, since this new variable only applies to premades, but they both coexist inside the same queue, which allows matching based on group size to be a thing.

Have groups match against other groups that are +-1 member from their own, with 1 dangling solo queue that has a high enough MMR to match with them. So 4-mans can only match against other 4-mans, or a 3-man with 1 solo queue. 3-mans can only match against a 3-man with 1 solo queue, a 4-man, or 2 duos. Duos can only match against a 3-man with 1 solo queue, 2 other duos, or multiple solo queues with high enough MMR to match with them.

Mark premades with unique icons in the leaderboard (F5) so that everybody knows who's a premade, and so that the 1 dangling solo queue knows who to follow. If not for other teams, mark them for your own team, for the sake of that 1 dangling solo queue.

Boom, easy way to address premades, while not ruining the fun for those duos and occasional 3-mans who just wanna have some fun together.

BattleAxe · July 2019

Again doesn’t address balancing the teams

jcm2606 · July 2019

BattleAxe wrote: »

Again doesn’t address balancing the teams

Do you know how to read?

BattleAxe · July 2019

Example to explain myself in say a 2v2v2 how are you gonna make the teams balanced you can’t plain and simple 1 group may be 2 skilled players 1 group new players and 3rd could be balanced. Now implement a ranking system say 5 matches and ur placed in a tier the players who want easy wins will just intentionally lose their 5 matches getting ranked in a low tier and occasionally losing a match to stay in tier.

jcm2606 · July 2019

"Have groups match against other groups that are +-1 member from their own"

Matching would be across all groups. If a 3-man manages to get on one team, the other two teams are only able to be formed with the rules associated with 3-mans, ie what I listed. If a team gets 2 solo queues, then immediately disable 4- and 3-mans on the other two teams, since only duos can fit. Shape the match to the players/groups.

MaxJrFTW · July 2019

BattleAxe wrote: »

I guess nobody hear has played battlefield or call of duty. Also denying a premade group from queuing for BG’s goes against play how you want. the players who go in as a premade are playing the way they want.

But they are coordinated and have mics.
Get on mic yourself and coordinate your team.

So people who want to solo queue(by far the majority), can't play the game the way they want?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_standard

BattleAxe · July 2019

There will still be imbalance among teams with or without premades

MaxJrFTW · July 2019

BattleAxe wrote: »

There will still be imbalance among teams with or without premades

Sometimes, not always. There will be less though.

The imbalance is also due to a poor mmr system more than anything else. Sometimes i'll get into a bg and the best 4 players in the game are all in the same team(solo queing). That's on the match maker, but that's also something they need to work on.

teladoy · July 2019

I completely agree. Premade only vs premade and if there are not enough players then SORRY! But don't put premade vs random players!!

wheem_ESO · July 2019

BattleAxe wrote: »

There will still be imbalance among teams with or without premades

To quote myself:

wheem_ESO wrote: »

I swear, some people have the worst arguments for trying to justify their huge advantages over other players.

There's never going to be a perfect matchmaking system, but that doesn't mean that it can't be improved over what we have now.

jcm2606 · July 2019

BattleAxe wrote: »

There will still be imbalance among teams with or without premades

Care to explain how?

A 4-man can only match against another 4-man, or a 3-man (+1 solo queue with matching MMR).

A 3-man (+1 solo queue with matching MMR) can only match against another 3-man (+1 solo queue with matching MMR), a 4-man, or 2 duos.

A duo can only match against (an)other duo(s), a 3-man (+1 solo queue with matching MMR), or solo queues with matching MMR.

In this scenario, MMR has been reworked to more accurately rank players based on performance, rather than glorified play time. MMR weighting is in place to ensure everyone is around the same performance bracket, or if a solo queue found a way into the match, slightly above the premades to make up for the coordination imbalance. All premades (2-, 3- and 4-mans) are marked, at the least for your own team so you know who to follow.

The queue is quite literally shaping the match around who's in it, based on who matched first. If the queue puts two solo queues together first, then, as I said, 3- and 4-man groups are not allowed into that match, since they cannot match against two solo queues. Only duos are allowed in the match, provided the MMR is close enough.

If the queue puts two solo queues against each other first (one on red, one on purple), then that's fair game for all group sizes (though the two solo queues are effectively guaranteed to get a 3-man, if a 4-man joins green), but if the queue puts a third solo queue on red (so red has 2 solo queues, purple has 1), then 3- and 4-man groups are not allowed into this match, since they cannot match against two solo queues.

This would take MMR inflation off of groups, so groups should in theory find matches quicker since there's more groups to match against in the nearby MMR brackets, but if queue times are still bad because of a lack of groups, the queue could dynamically bend the rules a little based on how many groups are in the queue, still taking MMR into account.

Pretty sure the queue already does this, during prime time you'll find more balanced matches, meaning everybody is around the same MMR brackets. Outside of prime time, though, you'll find more imbalanced matches where everybody seems to be in wildly different MMR brackets. The queue seems to become more relaxed in terms of MMR requirements when there isn't many people in the queue, and the same could apply to group matching.

The only problems I can see with something like this is how complicated it may be to implement (though there's tons of things in ESO that are already complicated, not to mention other games), how it may make queue times a little worse for groups (there's no way to know, it'd have to be implemented to see the effect), and how it really relies on MMR being overhauled alongside it. Aside from those, as far as I can see, it's all upsides.

Solo queues will only be able to match against duos in most cases (with MMR ensuring the solo queues on opposing teams can handle the duo), duos will still be playable with a bit of variety since they can match against solo queues or 3-mans, 3-mans largely the same as duos, and full 4-mans will be a lot more fun, since you've actually got competition. Go ask anybody who actually runs a full 4-man in BGs, and I can guarantee they'd want to match against other 3- and 4-mans, instead of pub stomping poor solo queues.

With a system like this in place, the only reason you have to defend premades pub stomping solo queues is if you crutch on pub stomps yourself.

BattleAxe · July 2019

Performance based match making is easily exploitable

jcm2606 · July 2019

BattleAxe wrote: »

Performance based match making is easily exploitable

That's why you base it off of multiple stats, like an actual performance ranking system...

Base it off a combination of win/loss, kill/death/assist, match score, etc. Make it per game mode, and weight stats depending on the game mode.

EDIT: To put it into perspective, actual performance ranking systems are so complex that they need entire papers to explain. Google "ranking players based on performance paper" and you'll find papers detailing performance ranking systems used in real sports.