[AND AGAIN!] REMOVE PREMADES FROM BATTLEGROUNDS QUEUE!

Dusk_Coven

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

We. should. not. think. about. psychopaths who's enjoy is to stomp randoms instead real fights.
Same as we shouldn't care about needs of froudsters, killers or another criminal elements in real world.

is it possible that these types of players are in the very clear majority of ESO's PvP?
In a game with mechanics that allow burst builds to kill each other in seconds so there's really barely any fight at all?

If you want sportsmanship and good fights, you need a system that creates that. That's a proper league system.
Lacking that, separating premades from solos is a good start. Or possibly limiting premades to duos and you get another random duo to complete your team.

If there's a lack of population to support such a separation, the next step isn't finding alternatives. It's finding out WHY THERE ISN'T A PVP POPULATION.
Maybe the answer is "psychopaths who's enjoy is to stomp randoms instead real fights" enabled by the quirks of a combat system where often there's barely any fight at all.

wheem_ESO

Austinseph1 wrote: »

Make your own? They probably figured it was simple enough to figure it out.

I've explained this over and over on the BG forums, but here goes again: being on either end of a "pug stomp" is extremely boring.

If you queue in a premade you're generally going to have a lot of games against nothing but solo queued players, and in many cases those solo queued players aren't even going to have a full team. Sometimes that's because it's pretty common at high MMR to never get a 4th player, and other times because 1 or more people are standing around in spawn once they get instakilled a few times against the premade that's coordinating ult dumps and running a healer (or dps with lots of cross-healing). Being on any of the 3 teams in that situation is very boring to me, and I honestly don't understand how anyone actually enjoys it.

Playing in a premade against other premades can be fun sometimes, but that's not the driving reason that a lot of people are doing it.

JusticeSouldier

.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

To summarize, rather than eliminating or diminishing a form of group play from the game, we might

- Add a free-for-all mode of some sort for competitive Solo play

- Adjust scoring and medals to better reward healing and group buffing in Death Match

- Copy the Dungeon Finder roles for Solo queue, to better ensure a random group has the means necessary to handle a pre-made, and that random teams are better balanced against each other

This could work if an adjustment to the scoring in Death Match resulted in an increase of the population of Healers in BGs.

Would there be a downside to this, besides the elimination of random teams composed entirely of characters focused entirely on dealing their own damage? Would not a player who particularly enjoyed this find equal enjoyment in a free-for-all mode?

it won't work in such form.
random teams will be in any case much much weaker than organized ones.
because of voice coordination and builds adjusted to their group.
this system is unfair in it's core.
It shouldn't allow these 2 types of groups to meet up in matches, if randoms didn't make such choice while joined queue.

Premade groups should be denyed first at all.
Than, added new queue.
For premade groups with an option to join it for random's, who want like big challenge without forming own premade, or 2-3 players premade, non voice-coordinated also groups.
So it will be own choice and responsibility.
From my point of view it would be very nice.
Or if that queue wuill be dead - they always will be able to play solo at full random battlegrounds...fair.


And matchmaking with characteristics like support, debuff etc be nice addition to both of the queues to make matches more interesting for whole population.
It's not instead of removing and than separating premades, it's an improvement for MMR system for all queues.

JusticeSouldier

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

is it possible that these types of players are in the very clear majority of ESO's PvP?

actually, they are in clear minority. majority same as me for example, can enjoy it with some friends for first like 30 minuts and than never go premade again because it's extremply boring and have no any further progression.
it becomes same rountine garbage as grind in Spellscar (dungeon craglorn with hundrets of skeletons has such name yes?) or farm of materials somewhere

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Austinseph1 wrote: »

Make your own? They probably figured it was simple enough to figure it out.

I've explained this over and over on the BG forums, but here goes again: being on either end of a "pug stomp" is extremely boring.

If you queue in a premade you're generally going to have a lot of games against nothing but solo queued players, and in many cases those solo queued players aren't even going to have a full team. Sometimes that's because it's pretty common at high MMR to never get a 4th player, and other times because 1 or more people are standing around in spawn once they get instakilled a few times against the premade that's coordinating ult dumps and running a healer (or dps with lots of cross-healing). Being on any of the 3 teams in that situation is very boring to me, and I honestly don't understand how anyone actually enjoys it.

Playing in a premade against other premades can be fun sometimes, but that's not the driving reason that a lot of people are doing it.

agree every word

Lord_Eomer

iCaliban wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

I'd support having a separate queue for premades and solo players.

The solo queue would be fast. the premade queue is all that would be slow.

Premades already wait 30-45 minutes for a match. Separating them entirely would just make sure they never got a match. The LAST thing zos should do is punish players for playing together even more than they already do.

NO to the op. Get better. Ive played thousands of battlegrounds, many against premades, stop crying about them.

Utterly wrong, takes few mins to get a match.

Obir

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

iCaliban wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

I'd support having a separate queue for premades and solo players.

The solo queue would be fast. the premade queue is all that would be slow.

Premades already wait 30-45 minutes for a match. Separating them entirely would just make sure they never got a match. The LAST thing zos should do is punish players for playing together even more than they already do.

NO to the op. Get better. Ive played thousands of battlegrounds, many against premades, stop crying about them.

Utterly wrong, takes few mins to get a match.

Only if u r new in the system i mean your character, my main has to wait 20-40min!!!!!!! in solo que, my totally new char( i mean i didnt played BGS with it) got qued instantly.


Premades always win bc the system try to balance your team MMRs but this game cant work like that after a certain lvl specially in non-CP.

Solutions top of my head:

-what op said

-give us a 4v4 and 8v8 arena finally premads will prefer that, and make BGs solo just make a solo and a group segment

-make the freakin MMR dynamic so let me lose my ranking. so if i face lot of premade after a while i fell back, i will face other ppl, however in that case i can still face premades with low MMR characters and the whole story start over :S

The system need and overhaul for sure, lets hope the LFG system upgrade will introduce some changes.

Pr0Skygon

Well ZOS is now scripting a whole new LFG system, so I'd believe they can put the same effort into the BG queue. High hope after Quakecon 2019, not too high though.

kaithuzar

I don’t even think “premades” are the problem.
IMO the problem is people running the latest & greatest cheese +/- an exploit.

1) I’ve heard the hist bark bug has been back with all new flavors of 5 piece bonus stacking!

2) bleeds, which they are addressing this patch

3) meridia’s blessing; this set needs to go the way of blinding flashes & disappear into abyss

4) knight slayer & all other unmitigated damage types; if the set is doing the killing for you it doesn’t make you good

TriangularChicken

Trenia wrote: »

Premades ruin the experience for eight other players.

Yeah, if the 8 other players are super bad.

Simply not enough ppl play BGs, I had 20 mins queue times, so I stopped and so did many ppl I know.

JusticeSouldier

kaithuzar wrote: »

I don’t even think “premades” are the problem.
IMO the problem is people running the latest & greatest cheese +/- an exploit.

1) I’ve heard the hist bark bug has been back with all new flavors of 5 piece bonus stacking!

2) bleeds, which they are addressing this patch

3) meridia’s blessing; this set needs to go the way of blinding flashes & disappear into abyss

4) knight slayer & all other unmitigated damage types; if the set is doing the killing for you it doesn’t make you good

In Battlegrounds - main disbalance is - voice coordinated organized groups can stomp bunches of randoms.
This system allow them do that.
Overperforming or bugged sets here are very secondary thing and topic for another threads or bug reports.
they can help coordinated groups be even more toxic, but...lets be honest its not nessesary vs randoms.

Vortigaunt

kaithuzar wrote: »

I don’t even think “premades” are the problem.
IMO the problem is people running the latest & greatest cheese +/- an exploit.

1) I’ve heard the hist bark bug has been back with all new flavors of 5 piece bonus stacking!

2) bleeds, which they are addressing this patch

3) meridia’s blessing; this set needs to go the way of blinding flashes & disappear into abyss

4) knight slayer & all other unmitigated damage types; if the set is doing the killing for you it doesn’t make you good

Nah that’s just overperforming sets. The actual problems still lie in premades being able to queue up against pugs..

Girl_Number8

REMOVE ALL CAPS TITLES

Shanehere

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

I don't want to kill not organized randoms as a part of premade same as to be killed as random with a premade.
Is it clear?

So because you, for whatever reason, show pity on solo queued players in a PVP mode (where those players are signing up to kill each other and accepting the fact they will get killed too) so much so that you choose not to kill them with your friends, that means everyone else can't group with with their friends and play this game mode together?

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Remove, than think what to do after.
Simplest possible solution.

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , @ZOS_BrianWheeler what are u thinking for so many years???
@ZOS_Gilliam u especially, played bgs as a raw player, u saw that from inside...wtf?

This change will give u incredibly huge amount of reputation points.
it's the most valuable pvp improvement u can do at a nearest future.

You don't even offer a solution to your proposed problem, you just want to eliminate your grief immediately and don't care what changes are made or how long it takes, just so long as it is removed immediately.

I matched with Gilliam in a BG queue the other day, it was my team, his team, and a premade. The premade ended up losing too, it's advantageous but they are not unbeatable. I'm sure Gilliam isn't too concerned with players choosing to play with their friends and queueing for a battlegrounds match that is centered around group play. If you prefer to play solo that is fine, but don't complain about people choosing to utilize the advantage of what a premade group brings.

That's like complaining about Guilds clearing a vet trial or Dragonstar Arena and claiming it's unfair because they're getting ranked on the leaderboards every week because they're a premade group and you aren't because you choose to PUG, you're taking the risk of getting grouped with lower-skilled players, which is totally fine. I am primarily solo too, but you can't complain about people who choose not to take that risk.

ZOS_RogerJ

Greetings! Just a friendly reminder, as some posts have been removed, that it’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.

quadraxis666

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Austinseph1 wrote: »

Make your own? They probably figured it was simple enough to figure it out.

Ok dude, tell me please how u can provide My group to fight vs another premade groups each match in such case?
Come on, dear Devil's lawyer, tell me how?

I don't want to kill not organized randoms as a part of premade same as to be killed as random with a premade.
Is it clear?

No, no it most certainly is not clear. Not at all.

JusticeSouldier

Shanehere wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

I don't want to kill not organized randoms as a part of premade same as to be killed as random with a premade.
Is it clear?

So because you, for whatever reason, show pity on solo queued players in a PVP mode (where those players are signing up to kill each other and accepting the fact they will get killed too) so much so that you choose not to kill them with your friends, that means everyone else can't group with with their friends and play this game mode together?

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Remove, than think what to do after.
Simplest possible solution.

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , @ZOS_BrianWheeler what are u thinking for so many years???
@ZOS_Gilliam u especially, played bgs as a raw player, u saw that from inside...wtf?

This change will give u incredibly huge amount of reputation points.
it's the most valuable pvp improvement u can do at a nearest future.

You don't even offer a solution to your proposed problem, you just want to eliminate your grief immediately and don't care what changes are made or how long it takes, just so long as it is removed immediately.

I matched with Gilliam in a BG queue the other day, it was my team, his team, and a premade. The premade ended up losing too, it's advantageous but they are not unbeatable. I'm sure Gilliam isn't too concerned with players choosing to play with their friends and queueing for a battlegrounds match that is centered around group play. If you prefer to play solo that is fine, but don't complain about people choosing to utilize the advantage of what a premade group brings.

That's like complaining about Guilds clearing a vet trial or Dragonstar Arena and claiming it's unfair because they're getting ranked on the leaderboards every week because they're a premade group and you aren't because you choose to PUG, you're taking the risk of getting grouped with lower-skilled players, which is totally fine. I am primarily solo too, but you can't complain about people who choose not to take that risk.

So because I, for many reasons, want to have a choice to fight as a random vs randoms or vs premades.
Or as a premade to kill another premades not randoms in battlegrounds.
it's a question of choice. It's fair. SImple, very important word.
When we go "kill" people in pvp (but lets be clear, it's not a kill. and not a humans, but, players and virtual combat with respawns).
Same as i never get enjoy to get competition vs someone with physical or mind restrictions in real world, i never get enjoy of competition vs players in eso, where problem is in unfair in their core rules, not in personal skills of players.
Because it's not a competition! in such case. Clear?

Also, I. offered. here. many solutions.
First and main step and topic of this thread is to Deny premade groups in queue temporarily until 2nd solution will be possible to be introduced/implemented.
Another one - create than second separated queue for premades.
With choice range... With randoms and 2-3mans premades able to join it with own choice.
Another one - additional criteria (healing, buffs, debuffs, damage potential of characters with builds etc when entering queue) to better matchmaking groups in not matter what queue.
What I "don't even offer"?
Please open your eyes or turn on brain or don't be offended that i'm agressive because of your lazy manipulation.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler Quality of life changes.

quadraxis666 wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Austinseph1 wrote: »

Make your own? They probably figured it was simple enough to figure it out.

Ok dude, tell me please how u can provide My group to fight vs another premade groups each match in such case?
Come on, dear Devil's lawyer, tell me how?

I don't want to kill not organized randoms as a part of premade same as to be killed as random with a premade.
Is it clear?

No, no it most certainly is not clear. Not at all.

it's your personal ideology problem. Don't wonder if your life is garbage in such case.

JusticeSouldier

ZOS_RogerJ wrote: »

Greetings! Just a friendly reminder, as some posts have been removed, that it’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.

when u delete ironic answer to comment which is clear flame to the thread (REMOVE ALL CAPS TITLES ).
than why to not delete that comment also?
A selective sense of humor?

mursie

iCaliban wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

I'd support having a separate queue for premades and solo players.

The solo queue would be fast. the premade queue is all that would be slow.

Premades already wait 30-45 minutes for a match. Separating them entirely would just make sure they never got a match. The LAST thing zos should do is punish players for playing together even more than they already do.

NO to the op. Get better. Ive played thousands of battlegrounds, many against premades, stop crying about them.

signed / a magsorc

UntilValhalla13

The only reason I play bgs at all is to play together with my friends. Cyrodil is terrible right now.

Dusk_Coven

kaithuzar wrote: »

I don’t even think “premades” are the problem.
IMO the problem is people running the latest & greatest cheese +/- an exploit.

People wanting to win at the cost of sportsmanship is the problem. It makes other people not bother playing, which results in a lower population, then these people complain about not getting matches.

A proper system of leagues sorting people into proper leagues for proper challenges would address this and hopefully bring back a population who can then try it and progress through it and settle into a league that fits their playstyle/amount of commitment.
All these people running exploits/cheese builds still have a place -- they'd get filtered into literally a league of their own where they fight each other.
If you are running the same cheese build as your opponent, then that's one variable taken out of the balancing act. ZOS could then just not try to balance for both PvE (easier to balance) and PvP (very hard to balance) because in trying to do both they are bound to screw up both.
Leagues would balance things for PvP naturally so ZOS can just focus on balancing for PvE.

PhoenixGrey

I dare ZOS to implement a separate premade queue. I am pretty sure if they ever do, it will be dead within a week

In Premade vs premade games winning teams barely reaches 150 points due to braindead group healing mechanics.

I would rather do PVE dungeons instead

luen79rwb17_ESO

Like many other games out there, it should be a "quick play" mode and a league mode for premades. If you want to prove your worth as a team then compete with others on a equal and fair ground.

Ah! Afraid there wont be many people on League Mode? Then thank yourselves for making everybody's life miserable on the crap quick play mode we de-facto have now with you in it ruining it.

Reverb

So because you prefer to play a multiplayer game solo, you think every one else should have to as well?

liningtonsweldingb16_ESO

Agreed premade groups need to go imo.. should only be able to que up as a solo or duo at the most... literally always premade groups running 24/7 destroying most new players first pvp experiences

Shanehere

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

So because I, for many reasons, want to have a choice to fight as a random vs randoms or vs premades.
Or as a premade to kill another premades not randoms in battlegrounds.
it's a question of choice. It's fair. SImple, very important word.
When we go "kill" people in pvp (but lets be clear, it's not a kill. and not a humans, but, players and virtual combat with respawns).
Same as i never get enjoy to get competition vs someone with physical or mind restrictions in real world, i never get enjoy of competition vs players in eso, where problem is in unfair in their core rules, not in personal skills of players.
Because it's not a competition! in such case. Clear?

Also, I. offered. here. many solutions.
First and main step and topic of this thread is to Deny premade groups in queue temporarily until 2nd solution will be possible to be introduced/implemented.
Another one - create than second separated queue for premades.
With choice range... With randoms and 2-3mans premades able to join it with own choice.
Another one - additional criteria (healing, buffs, debuffs, damage potential of characters with builds etc when entering queue) to better matchmaking groups in not matter what queue.
What I "don't even offer"?
Please open your eyes or turn on brain or don't be offended that i'm agressive because of your lazy manipulation.

I initially quoted your entire original post and you offered none of the solutions that you just listed, telling you that you did not was correct. Responding to me with solutions and then being like "what do you mean I didn't offer any?" is just lazy and hilarious.

My brain is firing on all cylinders and I still find it difficult to follow along with what you are trying to convey because between the grammar and the emotion you are going every which-way.

I think you were trying to compare people who choose to solo queue and who get grouped with pre-made players to physically and mentally healthy people competing against people with physical and mental disabilities in real life? Where is the correlation in that?

JusticeSouldier

Reverb wrote: »

So because you prefer to play a multiplayer game solo, you think every one else should have to as well?

It's gambling with words from your side.
Solo in battlegrounds means only solo queue.
Not solo play.
When u joined match u have 4v4v4 (or in worse cases 3v3v4 or 3v4v4) team combat.
It's obvious absolutly clear thing.
U are at this playground always part of some team in multiplayer game...
But, premade voice coordinated group and randomly created group are completly not equal.
And it's not possible to make them equal.
So only one way is to separate premade groups from random groups at all.
And we should start from denying premades in queue, to reduce harm, which done and going on to community with this current unfair system. UNtil Zos will be able to implement another queue for premade groups.

I'm pretty sure, everyone in this game should have a choice if to play as premade or random vs randoms or premade.

Do u think we shoudn't have this choice?

buttaface

No good arena pvp in any game will ever allow premades and solos to queue into the same mode. Just another ESO fail and no-brainer change that should have been implemented from the beginning.

The premade option should allow 2 man and 3 man to queue as well as solos, but ANY premade team should never be queued in the same pvp mode with pug. Years after GW1 did it the right way (and *** still exploited the random arena there) games keep making this fundamental error over and over.

1. Build your small squad PvP system by starting with a simple 4v4 deathmatch mode on a few small maps without a bunch of noise and gimmicks.
2. Once that is working well, add a premade queue.
3. Once that is working well, THEN AND ONLY THEN, add in CTF, etc. other more involved game modes and maps.

They ALWAYS F it up. They NEVER get it right. In game after game. When will they ever learn that the foundation of a fun arena mode that people can pug into quickly is simplicity? Apparently never.

Was high ranked gladiator in GW because they did it right, haven't touched the mode in this game and likely never will because they always gussy it up too much, queue times suffer, and only a tiny fraction of the game population even plays the mode.

Want to fix and have tens of thousands of more people playing your BGs? Get back to basics.

Dusk_Coven

liningtonsweldingb16_ESO wrote: »

Agreed premade groups need to go imo.. should only be able to que up as a solo or duo at the most... literally always premade groups running 24/7 destroying most new players first pvp experiences

Everywhere PvP is destroying the experience for newcomers, not just this topic of premades. Just look at the warning thread about buying skill lines and people doing it in under-50 BG. As if people weren't already using gold-tier hand-me-down gear on rerolled toons.

Addressing fundamentals like why there isn't a good population in PvP should come first.

buttaface

Oh, one other thing, never EVER have scores, rankings, leaderboards, ratings, what have you, in the random four man arena.

That leads to lots of game theory gamesmanship, and is one of the key factors IMO that killed a far better PVP game, Global Agenda, dead... well that and the fact it didn't have the monolithic Skyrim IP propping up its crucial design errors.

JusticeSouldier

Shanehere wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

So because I, for many reasons, want to have a choice to fight as a random vs randoms or vs premades.
Or as a premade to kill another premades not randoms in battlegrounds.
it's a question of choice. It's fair. SImple, very important word.
When we go "kill" people in pvp (but lets be clear, it's not a kill. and not a humans, but, players and virtual combat with respawns).
Same as i never get enjoy to get competition vs someone with physical or mind restrictions in real world, i never get enjoy of competition vs players in eso, where problem is in unfair in their core rules, not in personal skills of players.
Because it's not a competition! in such case. Clear?

Also, I. offered. here. many solutions.
First and main step and topic of this thread is to Deny premade groups in queue temporarily until 2nd solution will be possible to be introduced/implemented.
Another one - create than second separated queue for premades.
With choice range... With randoms and 2-3mans premades able to join it with own choice.
Another one - additional criteria (healing, buffs, debuffs, damage potential of characters with builds etc when entering queue) to better matchmaking groups in not matter what queue.
What I "don't even offer"?
Please open your eyes or turn on brain or don't be offended that i'm agressive because of your lazy manipulation.

I initially quoted your entire original post and you offered none of the solutions that you just listed, telling you that you did not was correct. Responding to me with solutions and then being like "what do you mean I didn't offer any?" is just lazy and hilarious.

My brain is firing on all cylinders and I still find it difficult to follow along with what you are trying to convey because between the grammar and the emotion you are going every which-way.

I think you were trying to compare people who choose to solo queue and who get grouped with pre-made players to physically and mentally healthy people competing against people with physical and mental disabilities in real life? Where is the correlation in that?

First solution is in title and original, post.
All solutions are in thread.
If u prefer to read only "original post" or title and immediately write (and ignoring Solution itself again and again which is to Deny premades in queue) - I can't help u.
it's responsibility of your parents, school etc. Not my.

Also, why u asking me where is corellation?
Why I should explain u that both cases are identical?
We have Olimpic games, and we have Paralympic Games because everyone understand that it's 2 different worlds.
Premade vs randoms in battlegrounds is like simulation of "competition" if both Olimpic and Paraolimpic Games be one "queue" with guess who will be winners there always in such case...
It's sick.