Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

JadeCoin · April 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

I was in Cyrodiil last week on a character that had the passive. I didn’t notice any difference. In fact I was snuck up on while repairing a door inside a keep and no, I didn’t see them 3 meters earlier than the rest of us on the door. They were able to come all the way into melee range to attack me.

You threw away the only advantage that passive has: 3 skill points for something else.

I'd much rather prefer that we get the stealth back than have anyone waste time on trying to fix the detection garbage that no-one even wants.

Your signature says it perfectly, @Cundu_Ertur. It's what I was thinking about yesterday, after reflecting on the history of nerfs in the game over the three years I've been playing. I really think the change to Bosmer is historic.

Before this, you had roles that classes and races traditionally played. So, for example, DK's were classic tanks, or High Elves were classic magicka damage dealers. There'd be the inevitable round of nerfs, abilities would change, people would complain, the balance of power would shift. But everybody still retained some special utility for their classic role. So, for instance, however much the DK's toolkit may change, it's still great for tanking.

The changes to Bosmer are, to my recollection (correct me if I'm wrong), the first ones that have actually ousted a race or a class from their classic, established role and tried to force them into another one. ZOS changed the thief to the guard, and it's fundamental. Removing Bosmer stealth, it seems to me, is like taking all CC abilities away from the DK, when CC is a defining part of the tank's role. Or removing all healing abilities from the Templar, and consoling them with the words, "But you still have the resto staff line, if you ever want to be a healer!"

I think some boundaries have been crossed in this case that might never have been crossed before. The whole thing really needs to be reexamined.

Jaraal · April 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

I'd much rather prefer that we get the stealth back than have anyone waste time on trying to fix the detection garbage that no-one even wants.

This has been true for a long time.

I remember when I first went to Craglorn, and I was getting the zone sets for the first time. I got a set of Way of Fire to wear, and I was able to sell the Way of Martial Knowledge set on the guild traders consistently for a decent return. But the Way of Air set (from which the Hunter's Eye passive is taken) was literally decon garbage from the get go. I tried selling it for a couple hundred gold per piece, but ended up getting it back in the mail after 30 days, and then straight to decon or sold to the vendor.

Nobody has ever wanted this set when it was a choice, and now that it's forced on wood elves, it's still that ugly, itchy wool sweater your aunt gave you for Christmas, that went immediately into a box under the bed or got dropped off at the Goodwill. Except we can't get rid of it. It sits there in our skills menu, silently laughing at us as we roam around Tamriel searching for stealthed enemies that can't be bothered to hide in the first place.

Khipu · April 2019

So, I made a new character that they call a Bosmer over a week ago and put "of the Ohmes" to her name and sported her with the closest tattoos I could find that may give an essence of the Secunda Full/Masser New spawn. Maybe now I could delude myself into a belief that I was just as sneaky, right!? Then, yesterday I watched the twitch stream and lo and behold they have the Ohmes-rhat, which sports a tail...!
I guess they're going to give the cat beasts everything they can to sell that tail!... I guess~
I have no idea what to even think anymore.

Just a little segue here, because it's funny, too:
In the morning, yesterday, a Khajiit whipered me the second I awoke on my Ohmes for some reason that didn't make sense, until, they asked if I was new. I said, "Yes!" This khajiit, for some strange reason, was of the giving nature and tried to pass on some new delicacies and desirables until! I tried to snatch'em and run away on my Dro-m'Athra Senche. They closed up their little purslette so fast and I heard them yelling out after me that I was, "...in fact, not so new to this world!," as I snickered back a hehe!

The only thing I can put forward with a most generous amount of my final ration of spittle is; ffs Zeni, can you please please pretty pleases give Bosmer some modicum of the actual Bosmeri culture back? Most agreeably would be just to give us our flippin sneak-thiefy back, for the love of, oh... idk, I'd say Y'ffre; but, I think it'd be better to say for the love of ZENIthar (holding a full pouch of Gold), or "gasp," the ja-Kha'jay at this point!; Or, maybe you could make an awesome bow that only a Bosmer can hold while roly~polying away; Or, maybe give us the ability to eat the dead meat we kill (oh wait, WW's do that already) Or, maybe you could make a strap-on tail for my Ohmes now so she can pass herself off, for what it's worth, as an Ohmes-rhat!?

P.S. Before anyone wants to say just change my Bosmer to a khajiit so I could have an efficient thief, I did change an alt to such a one, but I am NOT turning my long Long time Bosmer character into a Khajiit! It must be so hard to understand that I just want her to be who she always has been. She was never a PvP grunt, ever! Just an adventuring thief. To me it's just like what was said to my ancestors, basically, to assimilate or be killed/die off/assassinate your culture? I mean wtf...disappear, literally...disappear.

Sorry, that's how I feel about it all.

Maryal · April 2019

The stealth passive change to Bosmer is depressing ... very depressing.

Alucardmike · April 2019

Since the chance, I played one day a week. Even then it is about 10 minutes, only to make my merchant things.

No fun, no stealth, no money, no Bosmer...

Night_Wolf2112 · April 2019

It just shows Zeni's true character and integrity that they can't own up to a historical mistake and at least acknowledge the player base with any modicum of what resembles a conversation that they understand how we feel and why they did it... and if they plan to do ANYTHING remotely close to correcting it.

BlueRaven · April 2019

It is weird how losing stealth has took a lot of wind out my sails as well. I log in do some minor stuff, poke around a bit and then log out.

I was really hoping they were going to elaborate bit more about what their overall plan is. They hinted at more changes in the latest ESO Live. But really I am getting a bit tired of the coyness. They don't have to implements something now, just come out and tell us that there is hope.

Jaraal · April 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

It is weird how losing stealth has took a lot of wind out my sails as well. I log in do some minor stuff, poke around a bit and then log out.

I was really hoping they were going to elaborate bit more about what their overall plan is. They hinted at more changes in the latest ESO Live. But really I am getting a bit tired of the coyness. They don't have to implements something now, just come out and tell us that there is hope.

I appreciate your sentiment, and I agree with everything but the last statement.

Unfortunately, they have a history of making vague promises ('We'll fix the group finder/stuck in combat bug/lag in Cyrodiil/infinite loading screens/housing item limits/ect..... someday'). Frankly, I'd rather they just keep ignoring us and either let everybody stay upset or fix it and then tell us lore is restored, than to give us some open ended false hope.

Ratzkifal · April 2019

I like how new people keep coming into this thread and show their support and share personal stories. It's motivating and shows that this issue is in fact an important one that needs to be adressed.

Jaraal · April 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I like how new people keep coming into this thread and show their support and share personal stories. It's motivating and shows that this issue is in fact an important one that needs to be adressed.

Agreed.

It's not just 10 people who are upset about the loss of long-standing lore. We are the voice of tens or hundreds of thousands (if their claim of millions of players are true) who don't have forum accounts, or who have just moved on to other races, or have just quit entirely because of disappointment.

And it's because this isn't simply a gameplay issue. It's about changing the core identity of an entire race, and giving nothing back in return to the vast majority of Bosmer players who never PvP. But who would actually even use this in PvP, when it makes you more vulnerable to detection than it does to the enemy?

Kelces · April 2019

More talk over such topics never seemed to work, you could try tank with them in the meantime, quite funny actually.

SpringEternal · April 2019

JadeCoin wrote: »

The changes to Bosmer are, to my recollection (correct me if I'm wrong), the first ones that have actually ousted a race or a class from their classic, established role and tried to force them into another one. ZOS changed the thief to the guard, and it's fundamental. Removing Bosmer stealth, it seems to me, is like taking all CC abilities away from the DK, when CC is a defining part of the tank's role. Or removing all healing abilities from the Templar, and consoling them with the words, "But you still have the resto staff line, if you ever want to be a healer!"

I think some boundaries have been crossed in this case that might never have been crossed before. The whole thing really needs to be reexamined.

Absolutely agree.

While looking for something unrelated, I stumbled upon this interesting post from Matt Firor (emphasis mine):

ZOS_MattFiror wrote: »

I know there’s more than a little bit of concern from our Xbox One X and PlayStation 4 Pro players who take advantage of the HDR modes on those consoles. For those that are unaware, HDR is a graphics mode that allows the game client to far more subtly render colors to make scenes with a lot of detail almost lifelike. It is really cool and makes ESO look amazing, especially in scenes where there is a lot of color and detail, like sunsets. In the latest update, we made a change that altered the way HDR support in ESO works by “normalizing” lighting and color values, which led many players who use HDR believe it makes the game look bland.

The explanation for what happened here is illuminating, as it gives some insight into our development process, especially how we treat bugs vs. how we treat new art assets and shaders.

On the development side, we have a strict policy to never change art assets once they have been in the live game, except – and this is important – if they are obviously “wrong”. Think bad animations, shoulder pads clipping through armor, weapons hanging too far off a character model’s hip – that kind of thing. This “no change” policy has been in effect since the Redguard Female Armor Debacle of 2015. This was where we updated the visuals of one type of Redguard Female armor and pushed it live without thinking of the consequences of players who liked the way it looked and had been using it for over a year. This caused a lot of – very much merited – criticism from players that liked the older style much better. That’s when we started our “no change” policy. Even if we think an asset needs to updated because it doesn’t fit ESO’s established art style or the artist responsible thinks they could have done better, we no longer change live assets because players are used to the way the game and their characters look, and that is more important than what WE think.

Funny story about this – and I’m sure you are all seeing where this is going – we have a backlog of art bugs and issues that we address over time. If these are flagged as low priority, it can take a long time to get to them. Just after our HDR versions of ESO launched, we flagged an HDR issue where some assets were not responding correctly to our HDR renderer – their color values were not configured properly and were “blown out”, meaning they were far too bright for the established ESO art style. This was entered as a bug, and sat there (not high priority) on the bug list for a few years. Eventually it was addressed and made its way into the build that launched with Update 19 (Wolfhunter).

A side effect of this change is that it changes how our HDR “slider” bar displays HDR changes – on some TVs, you won’t notice any change after moving the slider 10-15%. This is exacerbated by the fact that there is no commonly accepted HDR standard for TVs – cheaper HDR TVs tend to be dimmer with not as much control, and higher-end TVs have a large range of brightness. You’ll definitely notice a difference after our change, especially if you have one of the lower-end TVs.

Short story: It was flagged as a bug, not an “art asset change”, so it never came to the attention of the Art Director (or me) until it went live. Obviously this should have been seen as an “art change”, not a bug fix. We should not have changed it, even if we think that the change is merited, due to our “no change once live” policy.

So now this leaves us in a sticky situation: if we change it back, there will be players that like the new way better than the old. And they will be correct, just as are the ones who like the old way – this is subjective. We are now in a no-win situation, which is why we haven’t given you guys much information up until this point. What we need to do is step back, look at our options, and figure out what is the best thing to do that makes the highest number of players happy. I’m not 100% sure what this is yet, but hang tight and we’ll let you know.

And my sincere apologies for rolling this out with no information, no background, and no heads-up. We take this very seriously, and we’ll make some process changes to ensure something like this doesn’t happen again in the future, just like we did during the Redguard Female Armor Debacle.

I really wish their "no change to live assets" policy had applied to the fundamental roles established in racial passives. I was used to the way my Bosmer was inherently good at stealth gameplay for years (not to mention the lore stretching back even further than just this game). If changing the look of Redguard armor inspired this much careful consideration from the developers, then changing such a defining part of the Bosmer's role should too.

Perhaps the reason for continued radio silence on the Bosmer stealth issue is that they've once again landed in a "no-win," "sticky situation" and are trying to assess their options? But, really, does literally anyone actually like the new increased stealth detection better than the old decreased stealth radius? Seems like the best thing to do to make the highest number of players happy is a no-brainer. Just switch that bit back.

Jaraal · April 2019

SpringEternal wrote: »

Perhaps the reason for continued radio silence on the Bosmer stealth issue is that they've once again landed in a "no-win," "sticky situation" and are trying to assess their options? But, really, does literally anyone actually like the new increased stealth detection better than the old decreased stealth radius? Seems like the best thing to do to make the highest number of players happy is a no-brainer. Just switch that bit back.

In most cases, one would think that the longer they wait, the more brand new players will be expecting (falsely, apparently) that if they select a Bosmer, they will be better at finding hidden stuff. But they'll be disappointed in the usefulness of it in PvP, and wondering what the heck is wrong while they look for stealthed enemies throughout the rest of Tamriel. I can't see any case where any new player would be unhappy to be able to hide better. So the grandfather clause is far better suited in this case to the thousands who have been used to playing real Bosmer for years, in my humble opinion.

And I notice they have yet to rewrite and revoice the NPC dialogues to match the new passive. People are going to be wondering what the heck these NPCs and in-game books are talking about when they refer to Bosmer stealth...... forever.

themightyhades · April 2019

+1 to all of this. I want my bosmer back, not this nasty khajit imposter that's taken her place.

FrancisCrawford · April 2019

When I changed my Bosmer -- then my overland main -- to a Khajit named Grumpy Ex Wood Elf, that was a huge art change for the character.

I've barely played him since.

SpringEternal wrote: »

JadeCoin wrote: »

The changes to Bosmer are, to my recollection (correct me if I'm wrong), the first ones that have actually ousted a race or a class from their classic, established role and tried to force them into another one. ZOS changed the thief to the guard, and it's fundamental. Removing Bosmer stealth, it seems to me, is like taking all CC abilities away from the DK, when CC is a defining part of the tank's role. Or removing all healing abilities from the Templar, and consoling them with the words, "But you still have the resto staff line, if you ever want to be a healer!"

I think some boundaries have been crossed in this case that might never have been crossed before. The whole thing really needs to be reexamined.

Absolutely agree.

While looking for something unrelated, I stumbled upon this interesting post from Matt Firor (emphasis mine):

ZOS_MattFiror wrote: »

I know there’s more than a little bit of concern from our Xbox One X and PlayStation 4 Pro players who take advantage of the HDR modes on those consoles. For those that are unaware, HDR is a graphics mode that allows the game client to far more subtly render colors to make scenes with a lot of detail almost lifelike. It is really cool and makes ESO look amazing, especially in scenes where there is a lot of color and detail, like sunsets. In the latest update, we made a change that altered the way HDR support in ESO works by “normalizing” lighting and color values, which led many players who use HDR believe it makes the game look bland.

The explanation for what happened here is illuminating, as it gives some insight into our development process, especially how we treat bugs vs. how we treat new art assets and shaders.

On the development side, we have a strict policy to never change art assets once they have been in the live game, except – and this is important – if they are obviously “wrong”. Think bad animations, shoulder pads clipping through armor, weapons hanging too far off a character model’s hip – that kind of thing. This “no change” policy has been in effect since the Redguard Female Armor Debacle of 2015. This was where we updated the visuals of one type of Redguard Female armor and pushed it live without thinking of the consequences of players who liked the way it looked and had been using it for over a year. This caused a lot of – very much merited – criticism from players that liked the older style much better. That’s when we started our “no change” policy. Even if we think an asset needs to updated because it doesn’t fit ESO’s established art style or the artist responsible thinks they could have done better, we no longer change live assets because players are used to the way the game and their characters look, and that is more important than what WE think.

Funny story about this – and I’m sure you are all seeing where this is going – we have a backlog of art bugs and issues that we address over time. If these are flagged as low priority, it can take a long time to get to them. Just after our HDR versions of ESO launched, we flagged an HDR issue where some assets were not responding correctly to our HDR renderer – their color values were not configured properly and were “blown out”, meaning they were far too bright for the established ESO art style. This was entered as a bug, and sat there (not high priority) on the bug list for a few years. Eventually it was addressed and made its way into the build that launched with Update 19 (Wolfhunter).

A side effect of this change is that it changes how our HDR “slider” bar displays HDR changes – on some TVs, you won’t notice any change after moving the slider 10-15%. This is exacerbated by the fact that there is no commonly accepted HDR standard for TVs – cheaper HDR TVs tend to be dimmer with not as much control, and higher-end TVs have a large range of brightness. You’ll definitely notice a difference after our change, especially if you have one of the lower-end TVs.

Short story: It was flagged as a bug, not an “art asset change”, so it never came to the attention of the Art Director (or me) until it went live. Obviously this should have been seen as an “art change”, not a bug fix. We should not have changed it, even if we think that the change is merited, due to our “no change once live” policy.

So now this leaves us in a sticky situation: if we change it back, there will be players that like the new way better than the old. And they will be correct, just as are the ones who like the old way – this is subjective. We are now in a no-win situation, which is why we haven’t given you guys much information up until this point. What we need to do is step back, look at our options, and figure out what is the best thing to do that makes the highest number of players happy. I’m not 100% sure what this is yet, but hang tight and we’ll let you know.

And my sincere apologies for rolling this out with no information, no background, and no heads-up. We take this very seriously, and we’ll make some process changes to ensure something like this doesn’t happen again in the future, just like we did during the Redguard Female Armor Debacle.

I really wish their "no change to live assets" policy had applied to the fundamental roles established in racial passives. I was used to the way my Bosmer was inherently good at stealth gameplay for years (not to mention the lore stretching back even further than just this game). If changing the look of Redguard armor inspired this much careful consideration from the developers, then changing such a defining part of the Bosmer's role should too.

Perhaps the reason for continued radio silence on the Bosmer stealth issue is that they've once again landed in a "no-win," "sticky situation" and are trying to assess their options? But, really, does literally anyone actually like the new increased stealth detection better than the old decreased stealth radius? Seems like the best thing to do to make the highest number of players happy is a no-brainer. Just switch that bit back.

anadandy · April 2019

SpringEternal wrote: »

Perhaps the reason for continued radio silence on the Bosmer stealth issue is that they've once again landed in a "no-win," "sticky situation" and are trying to assess their options? But, really, does literally anyone actually like the new increased stealth detection better than the old decreased stealth radius? Seems like the best thing to do to make the highest number of players happy is a no-brainer. Just switch that bit back.

This sort of relates to the comments they made at the Bethesda Game Days live stream when someone asked if they were planning on adding other actions to the justice system alongwith Necromancy (like WW and Vampire) and the answer was they had to be careful making a change like that because they would be messing with things people had been doing for years and making a drastic change. I think the comment was "I could do this yesterday but not today"/

Where was that concern when they took away Bosmer stealth radius? Apparently their "no changes" policy is very flexible depending on what THEY want - so I have zero sympathy for them being in a no-win situation now.

Cundu_Ertur · April 2019

anadandy wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

Perhaps the reason for continued radio silence on the Bosmer stealth issue is that they've once again landed in a "no-win," "sticky situation" and are trying to assess their options? But, really, does literally anyone actually like the new increased stealth detection better than the old decreased stealth radius? Seems like the best thing to do to make the highest number of players happy is a no-brainer. Just switch that bit back.

This sort of relates to the comments they made at the Bethesda Game Days live stream when someone asked if they were planning on adding other actions to the justice system alongwith Necromancy (like WW and Vampire) and the answer was they had to be careful making a change like that because they would be messing with things people had been doing for years and making a drastic change. I think the comment was "I could do this yesterday but not today"/

Where was that concern when they took away Bosmer stealth radius? Apparently their "no changes" policy is very flexible depending on what THEY want - so I have zero sympathy for them being in a no-win situation now.

Exactly. They changed something that had been the case since TES III DESPITE dozens (if not hundreds) of posts that pointed out the discrepancy. This isn't a case where something was always one way; it is a case where they made a badly informed and poorly thought out change to a well established aspect of the game. We are not asking for a change to a system, we are asking that a system be restored to what it had been. The way to fix Bosmer snipe gank builds is not and was not to remove the ability to hide better, it is and was to remove the bonus to damage out of stealth (which we are not asking to get back) and to reduce the damage done by snipe (which is coming).

In 62 pages, we have had not one person come in and state any degree of support for the detection bonus that I can recall. It is useless. Not just in PVE; but in PVP, too. If it was removed there would be not one complaint because it literally does nothing beneficial. The people who don't want a change only like the roly-poly dodge stuff -- but we're not really discussing that all that much, except to note it really isn't that useful outside of PVP, and even then it's pretty minor. So long as that part didn't change, I doubt there would be any complaint from Bosmer players if the detection uselessness was replaced with the stealth bonus Bosmer should have.

max_only · May 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

Perhaps the reason for continued radio silence on the Bosmer stealth issue is that they've once again landed in a "no-win," "sticky situation" and are trying to assess their options? But, really, does literally anyone actually like the new increased stealth detection better than the old decreased stealth radius? Seems like the best thing to do to make the highest number of players happy is a no-brainer. Just switch that bit back.

This sort of relates to the comments they made at the Bethesda Game Days live stream when someone asked if they were planning on adding other actions to the justice system alongwith Necromancy (like WW and Vampire) and the answer was they had to be careful making a change like that because they would be messing with things people had been doing for years and making a drastic change. I think the comment was "I could do this yesterday but not today"/

Where was that concern when they took away Bosmer stealth radius? Apparently their "no changes" policy is very flexible depending on what THEY want - so I have zero sympathy for them being in a no-win situation now.

Exactly. They changed something that had been the case since TES III DESPITE dozens (if not hundreds) of posts that pointed out the discrepancy. This isn't a case where something was always one way; it is a case where they made a badly informed and poorly thought out change to a well established aspect of the game. We are not asking for a change to a system, we are asking that a system be restored to what it had been. The way to fix Bosmer snipe gank builds is not and was not to remove the ability to hide better, it is and was to remove the bonus to damage out of stealth (which we are not asking to get back) and to reduce the damage done by snipe (which is coming).

In 62 pages, we have had not one person come in and state any degree of support for the detection bonus that I can recall. It is useless. Not just in PVE; but in PVP, too. If it was removed there would be not one complaint because it literally does nothing beneficial. The people who don't want a change only like the roly-poly dodge stuff -- but we're not really discussing that all that much, except to note it really isn't that useful outside of PVP, and even then it's pretty minor. So long as that part didn't change, I doubt there would be any complaint from Bosmer players if the detection uselessness was replaced with the stealth bonus Bosmer should have.

There have been disingenuous trolls claiming they use the stealth detect.

The roll dodge (spend resources to use a passive) is a sore point for me too, but I just want to focus on one thing at a time.

Left4Daud · May 2019

Don’t bite my head off for saying this but the stealth detection component of the passive has secured me kills in PVP that I otherwise wouldn’t have attained. Though I still would trade it any day back for the reduced radius to be clear. It’s highly minimal use is probably bugged though (allows you to see invisible enemies at an extremely close distance).

Two examples off the top of my head:

1- Fighting a sorc open field, sorc starts to streak away and pops and invis pot, I sprint to their general location and run into them crouching. Because of the passive and me being close enough, I see through their invis pot and continue the fight. Without the passive they would have escaped.

2- An annoying nightblade was harassing my group at a inner front door keep siege. They kept attacking/burning siege and cloaking away. I saw them get pulled out of cloak in a corner near the front door so I sprinted to that location. Now very close to them, the stealth detection passive pierced through their invisibility and allowed me to attack and DOT them up. Without that passive I wouldn’t have been able to target them and they would have escaped.

There were a handful of other times I have used the passive in this nature.

Again please don’t bite my head off, I couldn’t care less about the detection passive.

But there is indeed another side to the coin.

Cundu_Ertur · May 2019

I think that is more bugged behavior. I don't think it is supposed to work against cloak/invisibility at all, just stealth. Maybe we can get some NB's to come here and whine about how OP it is for Bosmer to be able to pull people out of invisibility.

Left4Daud · May 2019

Right, outside of that bug it’s utterly useless. Just wanted to put those experiences on the table is all.

anadandy · May 2019

I appreciate the insight on your stealth detection experiences, Left4Daud And despite being a Bosmer I won't bite your head off

It's as I suspected, detection is useful in very specific PVP situations and of zero use in PVE. I don't understand why the devs refuse to acknowledge that - even if they don't change it.

Ah well, log in for daily reward, log out. That's been my past few weeks. Well done, devs!

Left4Daud · May 2019

@anadandy

You’re welcome. ZOS’s general approach to communication has always been to, well, not generally communicate. Of this they are masters no doubt.

They’re own lore on the other hand, not so much.

Ratzkifal · May 2019

Not even Altmer can (truthfully) complain about Spell Recharge being useless in PvE. You do dodge and block and sprint even as DPS in PvE. On my Altmer magDK I've been spamming Molten Armaments to get stam back after sprinting (and I know that Helping Hands contributed more than half the stamina there). It allowed me to continue sprinting right then and there until I would also used up my magicka. Spell Recharge, as bad as it is, can at least be taken advantage of in both PvP, PvE and out of combat.

Hunter's Eye can't be taken advantage of in the same way. Definitely not the detection and "pretty much" not the dodgeroll. We know that with Hunter's Eye, attempting to actively take advantage of it, is actually a detriment. You would only care about a short burst of movement speed if you are not trying to get somewhere far away and don't need your stamina when you arrive. It's a completely different story in PvP obviously, but that it boils down to pretty much nothing in PvE is just sad. That you can save 3 skill points when you play Bosmer is really the only advantage it has.
It wouldn't be the case if the penetration was permanent and the detection was stealth again. You'd still have a great PvP passive there but it would work for PvE too while also distinguishing Bosmer and Redguards beyond who has the better sustain.

Why doesn't ZOS see this?

Jaraal · May 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

I think that is more bugged behavior. I don't think it is supposed to work against cloak/invisibility at all, just stealth.

Makes sense, because he/she should have been able to see them from 3 meters away ("Increases your detection radius in Stealth by 3m"), rather than having to be right on top of them. And I agree that "stealth" is not the same as invisibility, or the tooltip would have read "Increases your detection radius in Stealth or Invisibility by 3m". The simple fact than "Stealth" is capitalized indicates that the passive (supposedly) works with that specific ability, rather than non-capitalized generic "stealth".

And it just occurred to me that the way the passive is worded, you actually have to be IN stealth (ie: crouched) to be able to detect players 3 meters closer. But I know for a fact that when I was crouched right next to the enemy player in that delve, that I could not see her until I cast Evil Hunter.

Cundu_Ertur · May 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Not even Altmer can (truthfully) complain about Spell Recharge being useless in PvE. You do dodge and block and sprint even as DPS in PvE. On my Altmer magDK I've been spamming Molten Armaments to get stam back after sprinting (and I know that Helping Hands contributed more than half the stamina there). It allowed me to continue sprinting right then and there until I would also used up my magicka. Spell Recharge, as bad as it is, can at least be taken advantage of in both PvP, PvE and out of combat.

Hunter's Eye can't be taken advantage of in the same way. Definitely not the detection and "pretty much" not the dodgeroll. We know that with Hunter's Eye, attempting to actively take advantage of it, is actually a detriment. You would only care about a short burst of movement speed if you are not trying to get somewhere far away and don't need your stamina when you arrive. It's a completely different story in PvP obviously, but that it boils down to pretty much nothing in PvE is just sad. That you can save 3 skill points when you play Bosmer is really the only advantage it has.
It wouldn't be the case if the penetration was permanent and the detection was stealth again. You'd still have a great PvP passive there but it would work for PvE too while also distinguishing Bosmer and Redguards beyond who has the better sustain.

Why doesn't ZOS see this?

I would prefer that if we did have a permanent penetration bonus that it would be tied to using a bow. That would replace the currently 'acceptable' conditional bonus (right after a dodge-roll) with a more lore-friendly conditional situation (with a bow). I doubt I have to explain the importance of archery to Bosmeri culture in this thread. That Bosmer have not any shred of a bonus to using a bow* is as bad, in my opinion, as the loss of stealth.

*Note: Yes, there is the bonus to exp, but that does not translate to anything of value once the skills are all maxxed out. Shot for shot, Orcs and Dunmer are better archers. Yes, sustain may be an issue, but is there no food to help sustain? Is there any food to increase weapon damage?

Ratzkifal · May 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

And it just occurred to me that the way the passive is worded, you actually have to be IN stealth (ie: crouched) to be able to detect players 3 meters closer. But I know for a fact that when I was crouched right next to the enemy player in that delve, that I could not see her until I cast Evil Hunter.

@Jaraal Huh? Can you elaborate on that? Is it because it says "stealth detection radius" instead of just "detection radius"? Because that doesn't sound to me like you have to be IN stealth at all. Just sounds like redundancy or a weak attempt at fooling people into believing that Bosmer are still related to stealth.

Cundu_Ertur · May 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

And it just occurred to me that the way the passive is worded, you actually have to be IN stealth (ie: crouched) to be able to detect players 3 meters closer. But I know for a fact that when I was crouched right next to the enemy player in that delve, that I could not see her until I cast Evil Hunter.

@Jaraal Huh? Can you elaborate on that? Is it because it says "stealth detection radius" instead of just "detection radius"? Because that doesn't sound to me like you have to be IN stealth at all. Just sounds like redundancy or a weak attempt at fooling people into believing that Bosmer are still related to stealth.

It's a weak attempt at fooling people into believing that Bosmer are still related to stealth.

Jaraal · May 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

And it just occurred to me that the way the passive is worded, you actually have to be IN stealth (ie: crouched) to be able to detect players 3 meters closer. But I know for a fact that when I was crouched right next to the enemy player in that delve, that I could not see her until I cast Evil Hunter.

@Jaraal Huh? Can you elaborate on that? Is it because it says "stealth detection radius" instead of just "detection radius"? Because that doesn't sound to me like you have to be IN stealth at all. Just sounds like redundancy or a weak attempt at fooling people into believing that Bosmer are still related to stealth.

Am I misreading the wording? It says "in stealth," not "of stealth."

Ratzkifal · May 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Not even Altmer can (truthfully) complain about Spell Recharge being useless in PvE. You do dodge and block and sprint even as DPS in PvE. On my Altmer magDK I've been spamming Molten Armaments to get stam back after sprinting (and I know that Helping Hands contributed more than half the stamina there). It allowed me to continue sprinting right then and there until I would also used up my magicka. Spell Recharge, as bad as it is, can at least be taken advantage of in both PvP, PvE and out of combat.

Hunter's Eye can't be taken advantage of in the same way. Definitely not the detection and "pretty much" not the dodgeroll. We know that with Hunter's Eye, attempting to actively take advantage of it, is actually a detriment. You would only care about a short burst of movement speed if you are not trying to get somewhere far away and don't need your stamina when you arrive. It's a completely different story in PvP obviously, but that it boils down to pretty much nothing in PvE is just sad. That you can save 3 skill points when you play Bosmer is really the only advantage it has.
It wouldn't be the case if the penetration was permanent and the detection was stealth again. You'd still have a great PvP passive there but it would work for PvE too while also distinguishing Bosmer and Redguards beyond who has the better sustain.

Why doesn't ZOS see this?

I would prefer that if we did have a permanent penetration bonus that it would be tied to using a bow. That would replace the currently 'acceptable' conditional bonus (right after a dodge-roll) with a more lore-friendly conditional situation (with a bow). I doubt I have to explain the importance of archery to Bosmeri culture in this thread. That Bosmer have not any shred of a bonus to using a bow* is as bad, in my opinion, as the loss of stealth.

*Note: Yes, there is the bonus to exp, but that does not translate to anything of value once the skills are all maxxed out. Shot for shot, Orcs and Dunmer are better archers. Yes, sustain may be an issue, but is there no food to help sustain? Is there any food to increase weapon damage?

I still disagree with you there. We want to go away from shoehorning and restricting bonuses, not return to them. Maybe if it was "ranged attacks" rather than "with a bow". After all, thrown knives etc were also part of the marksman skill in older games.
But still, I think we shouldn't punish people who want to use daggers or swords on their Bosmer by locking one of their racial bonuses behind their weapon choice. That's exaclty what the current passive does but here it's locking the use behind pvp.
Redguard passives apply to all weapons too even though the lore points more towards swords. Orcs get universal weapon damage and Altmer universal spell damage. Why should Bosmer be the only different one?
As long as the bow is a viable weapon choice for Bosmer and the racial passives give the bow wielding Bosmer an edge over other bow wielding races then I am happy. And I feel our proposal does due to the movement speed synergizing with the bow passive to improve kiting potential, penetration increasing damage better with crit which bows (and daggers) give and lastly having enough passive power to be part of the meta at all thanks to their max stam and sustain.