JadeCoin wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

That's consistent with my testing. 3m are nothing in ESO. It can't even be explained with a translation from yards, being smaller than meters, because even for 3 yards it's a bit short. Hunter's Eye just gets your detection up enough that the enemy is just barely out of melee range when you detect them and that won't do you any good. Not to speak of Nightblades, who you only start to see through cloak if they bump into you!

All of this makes me wonder whether they aren't planning to roll out (no pun intended) more sets like Way of the Air, making stealth detection stacking a thing.

Which still begs the question of why anyone would use it when there are already more effective measures in the game that defend against both ordinary stealth and cloaking.

Oh don't worry. ZOS won't be stopped by such things. They'll just nerf detect pots, expert hunter and mage light, because everyone and their mother has been complaining about those. And once that is done, these sets will become popular! Great design, isn't it? /s

max_only wrote: »

I see under 50 Bosmer and it makes me sad.

What do you mean by this?

I suspect because they don't know what was lost, more likely than not. But don't feel bad if you run into my goofy ice warden guy, he's still under 45 just because I keep screwing around with his build.

Well, you can feel bad about the whole "no stealth" garbage nerf, if you want. I think we all still feel that one.

max_only wrote: »

I see under 50 Bosmer and it makes me sad.

Btw I appreciate you all keeping hope alive in this thread. I don’t respond on everything because I don’t want Zos to say I’m padding my own thread with posts.

I joined this thread after someone suggested that it was only a few select people who cared about this topic anymore. I didn't contribute before that because I didn't have a forum account; I was just reading and silently supporting your posts. I made a forum account so that I could participate in this thread.

Based on my experience, I actually think there are a lot of players who are negatively impacted by this. Just that many of them are not the type of endgame players who normally get worked up about nerfs or whatever, enough to be active in the forums.

I hope someone else will come along and suggest that we should shut up. It might inspire the next person to do the same thing I did, stop being silent and join the conversation.

Jaraal wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

JadeCoin wrote: »

All of this makes me wonder whether they aren't planning to roll out (no pun intended) more sets like Way of the Air, making stealth detection stacking a thing.

Which still begs the question of why anyone would use it when there are already more effective measures in the game that defend against both ordinary stealth and cloaking.

Nothing like stacking a few stealth detection sets so you can see the enemy coming right before they easily murder you because they're wearing sets with useful bonuses instead of stealth detection.

Would be interesting to see someone with two accounts take screenshots from two different perspectives in a PvP zone. Have a Bosmer with Hunter's Eye and a character of another race crouch facing each other, and slowly inch each toon forward until (a) one character's "eye" half opens, or (b) one character becomes visible to the other, and report back with pictorial evidence of what's what. And then maybe throw a Way of Air set on the Bosmer and see if the effects stack, and/or give the Bosmer away earlier. Or put the Way of Air set on the other character and see if they see or detect each other at the same time. It would prove or disprove a lot of things.

I mean I didn't even think of it going to "danger" before I tested it, but I can do it again with screenshots.
Just one question, what's the best method to upload images onto the forum?

Update:
Test1: No medium Armor on both, the one with the red orbs has 3/3 Hunter's Eye.


Without wearing any armor, the "danger" indicator is nonexistant for the person being revealed. You go from completely hidden straight to full reveal. However there is some very wonky behavior as I am constantly going "hidden" again since no combat is happening, only to be immediately detected as soon as the indicator goes to "hidden" without any of us moving. This is when sneaking face toward face. The fennec fox pet was friendly enough to not go into stealth, so you can still tell where my sneaking Bosmer friend is. Note that he is not standing on top of the flag but slightly behind it (ther is room for about another crouching Bosmer between him and the flag).
Test2: One has full medium armor with passives, the other with the red orbs has 3/3 Hunter's Eye


This time the Bosmer without the Hunter's Eye passive put on 7 pieces of medium armor, none of which interact with detection nor stealth apart from the medium armor passive. As you can clearly see, the Bosmer without Hunter's Eye is made aware of a nearby enemy through the "danger" indicator - the half opened eye. The Bosmer with Hunter's eye is still hidden and has no idea an enemy even exists in the area. This time the helpful fox behaved and went properly into hiding. The duel flag is touching the Hunter's Eye Bosmer's heel.

Both screenshots were taken on the road to Davon's Watch.

Jaraal wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

JadeCoin wrote: »

All of this makes me wonder whether they aren't planning to roll out (no pun intended) more sets like Way of the Air, making stealth detection stacking a thing.

Which still begs the question of why anyone would use it when there are already more effective measures in the game that defend against both ordinary stealth and cloaking.

Nothing like stacking a few stealth detection sets so you can see the enemy coming right before they easily murder you because they're wearing sets with useful bonuses instead of stealth detection.

Would be interesting to see someone with two accounts take screenshots from two different perspectives in a PvP zone. Have a Bosmer with Hunter's Eye and a character of another race crouch facing each other, and slowly inch each toon forward until (a) one character's "eye" half opens, or (b) one character becomes visible to the other, and report back with pictorial evidence of what's what. And then maybe throw a Way of Air set on the Bosmer and see if the effects stack, and/or give the Bosmer away earlier. Or put the Way of Air set on the other character and see if they see or detect each other at the same time. It would prove or disprove a lot of things.

You don't even have to do that.

You can calculate exact detection ranges.

The formula is/has been relatively simple.

Forward detection 20m
Side detection 10m
Rear detection 5m

F:20m *(armor bonus)=X-racial(or+racial)-set(or+set)

Everything stacks.

I would have tested the reveal through cloak too, but that's quite the challenge if you only have one computer and two accounts to play on simultaneously. Last time I had a friend to test it with me.

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

JadeCoin wrote: »

All of this makes me wonder whether they aren't planning to roll out (no pun intended) more sets like Way of the Air, making stealth detection stacking a thing.

Which still begs the question of why anyone would use it when there are already more effective measures in the game that defend against both ordinary stealth and cloaking.

Nothing like stacking a few stealth detection sets so you can see the enemy coming right before they easily murder you because they're wearing sets with useful bonuses instead of stealth detection.

Would be interesting to see someone with two accounts take screenshots from two different perspectives in a PvP zone. Have a Bosmer with Hunter's Eye and a character of another race crouch facing each other, and slowly inch each toon forward until (a) one character's "eye" half opens, or (b) one character becomes visible to the other, and report back with pictorial evidence of what's what. And then maybe throw a Way of Air set on the Bosmer and see if the effects stack, and/or give the Bosmer away earlier. Or put the Way of Air set on the other character and see if they see or detect each other at the same time. It would prove or disprove a lot of things.

You don't even have to do that.

You can calculate exact detection ranges.

The formula is/has been relatively simple.

Forward detection 20m
Side detection 10m
Rear detection 5m

F:20m *(armor bonus)=X-racial(or+racial)-set(or+set)

Everything stacks.

While having the numbers and formula is nice, and thanks for that, what we are trying to work out is if the Hunter's Eye 'bonus' is actually a detriment. This demonstration seems to show that it is. The Bosmer with Hunter's Eye who is in stealth cannot detect a stealthed enemy at all, but the enemy can tell that there is someone there because they're getting warned that they are being detected.

It shouldn't be. The detection should just +3m, anytime increased detection is used against similar stealth levels you would get the warning. It's similar with detect pots and everything else of the nature that increases detection range.

Point being... that while it will alert stealthed players earlier than they can see or start to detect you, they still can't actually see you... but yes it will act as an alert of sorts.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I would have tested the reveal through cloak too, but that's quite the challenge if you only have one computer and two accounts to play on simultaneously. Last time I had a friend to test it with me.

With cloak (well, shadowy disguise) the benefit of hunter's eye will be that you can reveal them. Without it, you can't... ever.

Shadowy disguise acts as modified stealth with detection ranges set to 0. So it will be revealed at 3m to a bosmer, which is actually a pretty powerful racial in some ways.

You will not be able to reveal a khajiit with it though. or anyone stacking +stealth sets above 3.

@rfennell_ESO No, that's not how it worked when I tested it the last time. You can see them, yes, but you don't actually reveal the enemy so that you can attack them. All your targetted attacks will miss and again, 3meters are nothing, so your attacker well still be in melee range before you'll be able to see them. So I wouldn't call it "pretty powerful" at all.

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

JadeCoin wrote: »

All of this makes me wonder whether they aren't planning to roll out (no pun intended) more sets like Way of the Air, making stealth detection stacking a thing.

Which still begs the question of why anyone would use it when there are already more effective measures in the game that defend against both ordinary stealth and cloaking.

Nothing like stacking a few stealth detection sets so you can see the enemy coming right before they easily murder you because they're wearing sets with useful bonuses instead of stealth detection.

Would be interesting to see someone with two accounts take screenshots from two different perspectives in a PvP zone. Have a Bosmer with Hunter's Eye and a character of another race crouch facing each other, and slowly inch each toon forward until (a) one character's "eye" half opens, or (b) one character becomes visible to the other, and report back with pictorial evidence of what's what. And then maybe throw a Way of Air set on the Bosmer and see if the effects stack, and/or give the Bosmer away earlier. Or put the Way of Air set on the other character and see if they see or detect each other at the same time. It would prove or disprove a lot of things.

You don't even have to do that.

You can calculate exact detection ranges.

The formula is/has been relatively simple.

Forward detection 20m
Side detection 10m
Rear detection 5m

F:20m *(armor bonus)=X-racial(or+racial)-set(or+set)

Everything stacks.

While having the numbers and formula is nice, and thanks for that, what we are trying to work out is if the Hunter's Eye 'bonus' is actually a detriment. This demonstration seems to show that it is. The Bosmer with Hunter's Eye who is in stealth cannot detect a stealthed enemy at all, but the enemy can tell that there is someone there because they're getting warned that they are being detected.

It shouldn't be. The detection should just +3m, anytime increased detection is used against similar stealth levels you would get the warning. It's similar with detect pots and everything else of the nature that increases detection range.

Point being... that while it will alert stealthed players earlier than they can see or start to detect you, they still can't actually see you... but yes it will act as an alert of sorts.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I would have tested the reveal through cloak too, but that's quite the challenge if you only have one computer and two accounts to play on simultaneously. Last time I had a friend to test it with me.

With cloak (well, shadowy disguise) the benefit of hunter's eye will be that you can reveal them. Without it, you can't... ever.

Shadowy disguise acts as modified stealth with detection ranges set to 0. So it will be revealed at 3m to a bosmer, which is actually a pretty powerful racial in some ways.

You will not be able to reveal a khajiit with it though. or anyone stacking +stealth sets above 3.

@rfennell_ESO No, that's not how it worked when I tested it the last time. You can see them, yes, but you don't actually reveal the enemy so that you can attack them. All your targetted attacks will miss and again, 3meters are nothing, so your attacker well still be in melee range before you'll be able to see them. So I wouldn't call it "pretty powerful" at all.

Maybe "pretty powerful" was the wrong choice of words.

Without +stealth detect you can not ever see them. With it you can. It's very situational. Then there is the fact that anyone that actually wants to use +stealth to their advantage will be a khajiit with a couple stealth reduction sets and you won't be able to see them.

Technically it won't act as a reveal, you are correct. But you can see them, you will miss if you attack them on the first attack due to shadowy disguise next hit = miss. But a quick light attack weave into an ability should hit them.

Light attacks missed too if I remember correctly. I'm assuming only abilities like AoEs and attacks that can't be dodged like fossilize would still hit.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

JadeCoin wrote: »

All of this makes me wonder whether they aren't planning to roll out (no pun intended) more sets like Way of the Air, making stealth detection stacking a thing.

Which still begs the question of why anyone would use it when there are already more effective measures in the game that defend against both ordinary stealth and cloaking.

Nothing like stacking a few stealth detection sets so you can see the enemy coming right before they easily murder you because they're wearing sets with useful bonuses instead of stealth detection.

Would be interesting to see someone with two accounts take screenshots from two different perspectives in a PvP zone. Have a Bosmer with Hunter's Eye and a character of another race crouch facing each other, and slowly inch each toon forward until (a) one character's "eye" half opens, or (b) one character becomes visible to the other, and report back with pictorial evidence of what's what. And then maybe throw a Way of Air set on the Bosmer and see if the effects stack, and/or give the Bosmer away earlier. Or put the Way of Air set on the other character and see if they see or detect each other at the same time. It would prove or disprove a lot of things.

You don't even have to do that.

You can calculate exact detection ranges.

The formula is/has been relatively simple.

Forward detection 20m
Side detection 10m
Rear detection 5m

F:20m *(armor bonus)=X-racial(or+racial)-set(or+set)

Everything stacks.

While having the numbers and formula is nice, and thanks for that, what we are trying to work out is if the Hunter's Eye 'bonus' is actually a detriment. This demonstration seems to show that it is. The Bosmer with Hunter's Eye who is in stealth cannot detect a stealthed enemy at all, but the enemy can tell that there is someone there because they're getting warned that they are being detected.

It shouldn't be. The detection should just +3m, anytime increased detection is used against similar stealth levels you would get the warning. It's similar with detect pots and everything else of the nature that increases detection range.

Point being... that while it will alert stealthed players earlier than they can see or start to detect you, they still can't actually see you... but yes it will act as an alert of sorts.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I would have tested the reveal through cloak too, but that's quite the challenge if you only have one computer and two accounts to play on simultaneously. Last time I had a friend to test it with me.

With cloak (well, shadowy disguise) the benefit of hunter's eye will be that you can reveal them. Without it, you can't... ever.

Shadowy disguise acts as modified stealth with detection ranges set to 0. So it will be revealed at 3m to a bosmer, which is actually a pretty powerful racial in some ways.

You will not be able to reveal a khajiit with it though. or anyone stacking +stealth sets above 3.

@rfennell_ESO No, that's not how it worked when I tested it the last time. You can see them, yes, but you don't actually reveal the enemy so that you can attack them. All your targetted attacks will miss and again, 3meters are nothing, so your attacker well still be in melee range before you'll be able to see them. So I wouldn't call it "pretty powerful" at all.

Maybe "pretty powerful" was the wrong choice of words.

Without +stealth detect you can not ever see them. With it you can. It's very situational. Then there is the fact that anyone that actually wants to use +stealth to their advantage will be a khajiit with a couple stealth reduction sets and you won't be able to see them.

Technically it won't act as a reveal, you are correct. But you can see them, you will miss if you attack them on the first attack due to shadowy disguise next hit = miss. But a quick light attack weave into an ability should hit them.

Light attacks missed too if I remember correctly. I'm assuming only abilities like AoEs and attacks that can't be dodged like fossilize would still hit.

I can't recall if shadowy disguise is a window of misses or next attack misses. It might be a window and the only benefit would be you can see them and use a detection pot or radiant magelight to reveal them. I know they have been making changes to some of these abilities and I haven't been playing for a while now so I'm not 100% on them anymore.

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

Woof Elf/Bosmer whining about a stealth passive, an open letter

git gud

Wow... just wow. I'm allergic against the whole "git gud" thing as it is (mostly because of one not ESO-related story that I won't post here so as not to derail the thread), but this comment here is so much beside the point of this discussion that it almost physically hurts me. How about if you don't have anything constructive to say, don't say anything at all?

Jaraal wrote: »

Yeah, as if "gitting gud" will help NPCs not notice you stealing.

Or perhaps he was referring to developer gameplay strategy? Hard to say. But we welcome all efforts to keep this thread visible. Thanks for posting!

In truth with 3 +stealth sets (there is one on pts that's been added to elsweyr) You can get close to what Bosmer stealth used to be.

It's still a crock they took it away and then made Khajiit better than Bosmer used to be. But it's not all doom and gloom.

The change (in theory) isn't totally useless (except in pve, of course), but it is a bit of a raw deal to go from the master stealth race to no better than any other race (and worse than one).