Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.
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Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »I ran up (in stealth, naturally) to a guy who was hiding in Cyrodiil once. He didn't see me and never noticed I was there. I'm glad I didn't have the passive-that-shall-not-be-named, because it would have tipped him off and I may have not seen him at all.
I just keep my overland gear in PVPland; it's not like I'm going to get any better at PVP all of a sudden by changing gear. So I'm still at 2/3 of what should be my natural stealth passive.
Pretty sure that if the guy was sneaking and you saw him, Hunter's Eye would have changed nothing. It's just that if two people are sneaking and the non-Bosmer comes too close, he'll know an enemy is about to reveal him before the Bosmer does. Without Hunter's Eye, both Bosmer and enemy will learn they are about to be revealed at the same time. Unless one of them is facing the other direction or they are wearing different gear etc.
Still, the fact is that Hunter's Eye gives information to the enemy before you, which is a fundamental flaw of "bonus" and applies before you even get to benefit from it.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.4 -
Ostacia✭✭✭✭✭Just sticking my head into the thread to see if I can play my sneaky Bosmers again and offer support to other sneaks
PC/ NA
Imagination is the real and eternal world of which this vegetable universe is but a faint shadow. -- William Blake6 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Btw, we may be sure that issue is well-known:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5987559#Comment_5987559As a matter of fact, I told them to change orc (reduce health or stamina). I told them that players think the altmer stam passive is weird, I told them that bosmers want their stealth back and gave them reasoning why it'd be good to listen to that feedback. They decided not to and changed foods instead.
I guess ZOS screwed up with racials, if they plan to nerf most popular food as counter-balance to damage races, which actually solves nothing (breton becomes OP) and now there is a little outrage ongoing on PTS. Maybe they will left food alone as it is and review racials instead? (and return stealth) it's basically just a few tweaks
It will be good if somebody new creates thread for this on PTS section. I think majority of us were too vocal in last months and another thread "from bosmer cornerclub" maybe met with skepticism.7 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭In the developer notes it states that “many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!” The conclusion to replace it with 3 meter stealth detection is a contradiction because if enemies can’t be bothered to stealth, then we don’t need to detect stealth enemies. There isn’t any pve content available in the game that uses stealth detection. In pvp, 3 meters is actually a negligible amount of stealth detection because of how pvp is currently played. Stealth is used from a distance in order to stack bonuses from the Bow skill line. Stealth in melee range, at the pace of the current pvp climate, requires a skill (Vampire or Nightblade) or a potion. Being able to detect within 3 meters is not enough time to even block before a blow from stealth. “Gankers” will not disappear with the removal of this Wood Elf passive, they will just switch to Khajiit for the crits.
The stealth detection radius change was the minor change.
Losing the 10% damage bonus (which, in case some were unaware of also applied to shadowy disguise use) was a huge hit to many nightblades that picked wood elf for this exact purpose.1 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »In the developer notes it states that “many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!” The conclusion to replace it with 3 meter stealth detection is a contradiction because if enemies can’t be bothered to stealth, then we don’t need to detect stealth enemies. There isn’t any pve content available in the game that uses stealth detection. In pvp, 3 meters is actually a negligible amount of stealth detection because of how pvp is currently played. Stealth is used from a distance in order to stack bonuses from the Bow skill line. Stealth in melee range, at the pace of the current pvp climate, requires a skill (Vampire or Nightblade) or a potion. Being able to detect within 3 meters is not enough time to even block before a blow from stealth. “Gankers” will not disappear with the removal of this Wood Elf passive, they will just switch to Khajiit for the crits.
The stealth detection radius change was the minor change.
Losing the 10% damage bonus (which, in case some were unaware of also applied to shadowy disguise use) was a huge hit to many nightblades that picked wood elf for this exact purpose.
@rfennell_ESO In terms of combat balance, it was a minor change, but in regards to the lore in conjunction with the removal of the bonus damage from stealth, it's quite a major change. It also is a major change in regards to available options that fit the stealthy playstyle.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.3 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »I ran up (in stealth, naturally) to a guy who was hiding in Cyrodiil once. He didn't see me and never noticed I was there. I'm glad I didn't have the passive-that-shall-not-be-named, because it would have tipped him off and I may have not seen him at all.
I just keep my overland gear in PVPland; it's not like I'm going to get any better at PVP all of a sudden by changing gear. So I'm still at 2/3 of what should be my natural stealth passive.
Pretty sure that if the guy was sneaking and you saw him, Hunter's Eye would have changed nothing. It's just that if two people are sneaking and the non-Bosmer comes too close, he'll know an enemy is about to reveal him before the Bosmer does. Without Hunter's Eye, both Bosmer and enemy will learn they are about to be revealed at the same time. Unless one of them is facing the other direction or they are wearing different gear etc.
Still, the fact is that Hunter's Eye gives information to the enemy before you, which is a fundamental flaw of "bonus" and applies before you even get to benefit from it.
He was looking the other way, in stealth, and I had my NME on in stealth. My 'hidden' indicator never changed. The way I understand it, the 'bonus' of the new passive (which I refuse to get) would have alerted them before I would have been close enough to have seen them. They started looking around just as I saw them, though, so I think their 'hidden' had changed to 'detected.'
On another note, I've noticed lately that my Night Silence seems to have been nerfed or something; I'm not moving as fast I had been before in stealth. I used to move with a 'fast walk' animation in stealth (the same as if I wasn't in stealth at all), but now I move in a crouch. Maybe it was just a general walking speed nerf or something. I don't follow all of the change notes religiously.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.2 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CassandraGemini wrote: »
Good grief... I was about to write that I couldn't actually find anyone specifically defending the Hunter's Eye passive in that other discussion, as opposed to just saying that other races were worse off than Bosmer, but then I found the person who was really trying to make a case for that passive... yeah, don't know what to say, didn't expect that. My only consolation at this point is that it was just the one guy instead of a whole counter movement to this discussion here
The only people saying that Hunter's Eye is a good passive are those with niche playstyles built around the bow Hasty Retreat passive and Senche's Bite, Eternal Hunt, Morihaus, and other sets....... where they were already rolling around to begin with. Of course you're going to like extra speed and penetration (if you aren't already near the effective cap) when you don't have to change a thing about the way you play. But virtually no PvE players, and most PvP players who would rather be dealing damage than rolling around on the ground burning stamina like the Hunter's Eye passive.
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Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »The stealth detection radius change was the minor change.
Losing the 10% damage bonus (which, in case some were unaware of also applied to shadowy disguise use) was a huge hit to many nightblades that picked wood elf for this exact purpose.
Agreed. The 10% extra damage from stealth is why the Stealthy passive was removed from both Bosmer and Khajiit. The built in detection radius reduction was just collateral fallout. Yet, they saw fit to restore that part of it to one race, and not the other race..... who are traditionally known as masters of stealth.
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Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CassandraGemini wrote: »
Good grief... I was about to write that I couldn't actually find anyone specifically defending the Hunter's Eye passive in that other discussion, as opposed to just saying that other races were worse off than Bosmer, but then I found the person who was really trying to make a case for that passive... yeah, don't know what to say, didn't expect that. My only consolation at this point is that it was just the one guy instead of a whole counter movement to this discussion here
The only people saying that Hunter's Eye is a good passive are those with niche playstyles built around the bow Hasty Retreat passive and Senche's Bite, Eternal Hunt, Morihaus, and other sets....... where they were already rolling around to begin with. Of course you're going to like extra speed and penetration (if you aren't already near the effective cap) when you don't have to change a thing about the way you play. But virtually no PvE players, and most PvP players who would rather be dealing damage than rolling around on the ground burning stamina like the Hunter's Eye passive.
Even then, the defence was about the rolling in the dirt past of the passive with nary a peep about the detecting things part (if I recall correctly). And even then it was with the explicit acknowledgement that even the rolling around bit was pretty much rubbish in PVE.Edited by Cundu_Ertur on April 21, 2019 5:35PMTaking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.5 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
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Just watch this new video of Sniker, put 0.5 speed and start counting dodge-rolls. Ok, I'll do it myself, for bosmer's sake:CassandraGemini wrote: »
Good grief... I was about to write that I couldn't actually find anyone specifically defending the Hunter's Eye passive in that other discussion, as opposed to just saying that other races were worse off than Bosmer, but then I found the person who was really trying to make a case for that passive... yeah, don't know what to say, didn't expect that. My only consolation at this point is that it was just the one guy instead of a whole counter movement to this discussion here
The only people saying that Hunter's Eye is a good passive are those with niche playstyles built around the bow Hasty Retreat passive and Senche's Bite, Eternal Hunt, Morihaus, and other sets....... where they were already rolling around to begin with. Of course you're going to like extra speed and penetration (if you aren't already near the effective cap) when you don't have to change a thing about the way you play. But virtually no PvE players, and most PvP players who would rather be dealing damage than rolling around on the ground burning stamina like the Hunter's Eye passive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C07WaB8WGmk0:05 - combat video startsTl;DR of what's behind the spoiler - 22 roll-dodges in 80 seconds, 6 kills, in the end enemies put elemental rage upon themselves to hide in it, as defensive measure, otherwise it will be 8 kills. Tell me now, how hunter's eye was useless to him.
0:07 - first dodge roll
0:09 - second dodge roll
0:16 - third dodge roll
0:20 - fourth dodge roll
0:24 - fifth dodge roll
0:24-0:37 - permanently in cloak
0:40 - another combat starts
0:44 - first dodge roll
0:51 - second dodge roll
0:56 - third dodge roll
0:59 - fourth dodge roll
1:07 - fifth dodge roll
1:09 - 1:14 - in cloak
1:16 - sixth dodge roll
1:21 - seventh dodge roll
1:25 - eighth dodge roll
1:34 - ninth dodge roll
1:37 - tenth dodge roll
1:39 - eleventh dodge roll
1:41 - twelfth dodge roll
1:49 - thirteenth dodge roll
1:52 - fourteenth dodge roll
1:54 - fifteenth dodge roll
2:00 - sixteenth dodge roll
2:03 - seventeenth dodge roll
2:07 - eighteenth dodge roll
2:09 - nineteenth dodge roll
2:12 - twentieth dodge roll
2:17 - 21-th dodge roll (here my knowledge of English ends)
2:20 - 22-th dodge roll2 -
JadeCoin✭✭✭✭The only people saying that Hunter's Eye is a good passive are those with niche playstyles built around the bow Hasty Retreat passive and Senche's Bite, Eternal Hunt, Morihaus, and other sets....... where they were already rolling around to begin with. Of course you're going to like extra speed and penetration (if you aren't already near the effective cap) when you don't have to change a thing about the way you play. But virtually no PvE players, and most PvP players who would rather be dealing damage than rolling around on the ground burning stamina like the Hunter's Eye passive.
If the players who defend the changes could consistently distinguish between the changes to stealth and the changes to roll-dodge, I think it would clarify the debate a lot. The two get lumped together, and I'm not sure it helps us. I doubt that the majority of Justice system players with Bosmer thieves care much about the roll-dodge bonus or, if they do, that they'd mind putting up with it in return for getting their stealth back. Personally, I'm not a fan of the roll-dodge change, but it is true that there are niche playstyles which use roll-dodge boosts, and that those existed before the bonus was ever given to Bosmer.
What I'd like to point out, is what the patch notes didn't say about the stealth radius change. They didn't say:
"We recognize that there is a need for increased stealth detection in certain playstyles which revolve around stealth detection, and that no racial passives currently serve that need. In order to fill this demand, we have given a stealth detection bonus to Bosmer."
I've quoted it before, but what they said was:
"We also wanted to have more of a distinct play pattern on how Wood Elves and Khajiit both engaged with Stealth, so we’ve repurposed Wood Elves’ passive [...]"
My point is, no players were clamoring for increased stealth detection, not even "niche" players. Does anyone actually run Way of the Air for the stealth detection bonus rather than the roll-dodge boost? This demand didn't preexist the change; ZOS invented it in order to give Wood Elves something, anything, stealth-ish other than stealth radius reduction. The change looks, feels, and plays like something contrived and artificial, forced onto the race for a lack of any actually good ideas. And they didn't even try to give it a better paint job than that in the patch notes.8 -
JadeCoin✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »]Tl;DR of what's behind the spoiler - 22 roll-dodges in 80 seconds, 6 kills, in the end enemies put elemental rage upon themselves to hide in it, as defensive measure, otherwise it will be 8 kills. Tell me now, how hunter's eye was useless to him.
Many of us are only concerned here with the change to stealth detection radius reduction. This is logically independent of, and entirely compatible with, the current roll-dodge bonuses. It saddens me slightly to see the discussion go off in this direction, since it tends to generate a lot of muddled thinking, distract from the primary issue, and set people up as adversaries for no reason. It's perfectly possible to cash this out in terms that are win-win, rather than win-lose.8 -
Truthsnark✭✭✭✭Yeah this thread is about stealth, not dodge roll. Whatever your feelings are about the dodge roll situation, our Bosmer stealth bonus can coexist with it (and should, because we should have stealth, #nevergiveup).8 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »]Tl;DR of what's behind the spoiler - 22 roll-dodges in 80 seconds, 6 kills, in the end enemies put elemental rage upon themselves to hide in it, as defensive measure, otherwise it will be 8 kills. Tell me now, how hunter's eye was useless to him.
Many of us are only concerned here with the change to stealth detection radius reduction. This is logically independent of, and entirely compatible with, the current roll-dodge bonuses. It saddens me slightly to see the discussion go off in this direction, since it tends to generate a lot of muddled thinking, distract from the primary issue, and set people up as adversaries for no reason. It's perfectly possible to cash this out in terms that are win-win, rather than win-lose.
I am just trying to get as much as possible from new passives and connect them to the lore we have, which is mostly from 3rd Era in my case. From that point I am fine with everything with exception of detection radius and lose of stealth (lose of stealth is just an anecdotal assault/insult on the lore established over 25 years, i don't know should I cry or laugh any time I think about it). Detection radius feels like useless or not working. With inner light or expert hunter I was unable to detect nightblades before, and I still can't detect them even with "hunter's eye". Radiant magelight and pots works, but they were working before U21 too.
So there is no strict evidence that this passive works at all and is not bugged
If somebody on PC EU wishes to measure exact distances on PTS, I'm ready to join. I.e. medium armor or not, khajiit or not, bosmer and way of the air or not etc...1 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Tl;DR of what's behind the spoiler - 22 roll-dodges in 80 seconds, 6 kills, in the end enemies put elemental rage upon themselves to hide in it, as defensive measure, otherwise it will be 8 kills. Tell me now, how hunter's eye was useless to him.
So what you're saying is that he was originally so low on penetration that the extra 1500 from Hunter's Eye turned him into an elite player? Ok.... Seems more like rolling to avoid being snared or damaged, or to get the actually effective plus 430 weapon damage and 657 extra weapon crit for 5 seconds from the Senche's Bite set.
Nice to see that he found a way to overcome the passive giving away his presence before anyone else. Looked like he was staying far, far away from the action for the most part to achieve that. Frankly, I would think that the Resist Affliction and Y'ffre's Endurance passives would be of more use to a good player.
And yes, I agree the focus of this discussion should be upon the loss of stealth. But it still doesn't make the rest of the passive worthwhile, either. They might be more inclined to rework something that is underperforming in all areas, rather than something that is only broken in one portion of it.
Edited by Jaraal on April 21, 2019 9:44PM5 -
CassandraGemini✭✭✭✭✭
✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »]Tl;DR of what's behind the spoiler - 22 roll-dodges in 80 seconds, 6 kills, in the end enemies put elemental rage upon themselves to hide in it, as defensive measure, otherwise it will be 8 kills. Tell me now, how hunter's eye was useless to him.
Many of us are only concerned here with the change to stealth detection radius reduction. This is logically independent of, and entirely compatible with, the current roll-dodge bonuses. It saddens me slightly to see the discussion go off in this direction, since it tends to generate a lot of muddled thinking, distract from the primary issue, and set people up as adversaries for no reason. It's perfectly possible to cash this out in terms that are win-win, rather than win-lose.
Hm, I feel like I probably should have made that clearer in my posts as well. That I was only ever talking about the "stealth" aspect of Hunter's Eye, if you even want to call it that, instead of the roll dodging. Which wouldn't bother me in the slightest, even though I'd have no use for it personally, but it's not my concern here at all - and I'm sure many others can agree on that. If they brought the reduction of the stealth detection radius back (and preferably the increased damage from stealth too, but if I had to, I could do without that aspect and maybe switch it for the roll dodging), I'd be perfectly happy.This poor little Bosmer stealth passive had passionate friends and a big loving family!7 -
JadeCoin✭✭✭✭A few more random thoughts, for what they're worth:
When the combat team decided to rework the racial passives, I'm guessing that they had (at least) two goals that were in some ways at odds with each other:
(#1) Balance the races, i.e., make them all "equally good" or "equally viable"
(#2) Keep the races distinct, i.e., make them "not the same"
They needed both things in order to avoid an outcome everyone dislikes: balance turning into homogenization.
The path they took to accomplish their first goal was, at least in part, to look at sets and equate racial passives to a number of set bonuses. I think the inspiration for Hunter's Eye is pretty clearly Way of the Air.
It seems like the path they took to accomplish Goal #2 was to make each race not equally good at everything, but equally fit to some purpose/playstyle, where the purposes/playstyles were distinct. So, for example, a race strong in sustain might be the best choice for solo play, whereas a race strong in damage might shine in group play where there is support from the group for sustain.
It's Goal #2 that explains why they were so determined to separate the Bosmer from the Khajiit. I also think that when they thought about "fit to some purpose" they probably wanted that purpose to be as cohesive or unified as possible. So, for example, a PvP playstyle based on roll-dodge didn't "pair up" in the right way with stealth, whereas the ganker playstyle did.
To challenge their reasoning without undermining their two goals, we'd have to ask:
- Are there sets other than Way of the Air that you can model Bosmer "balance" on? What would those sets be?
- Would it be possible to define a separate purpose/playstyle for Khajiit and Bosmer that would still allow them to share stealth bonuses?
- Is there an alternative way of keeping the races distinct, other than "fit for distinct purposes" or "fit for distinct playstyles"?
- Is "cohesion" in the passives actually necessary to accomplish Goals #1 and #2, especially at the cost of violating what should have been
(#3) Stay true the lore!6 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The penetration bonus is just goofy. The speed buff is ok, though a bit minimal. If it was those thing and a stealth bonus instead of a detection bonus, I'd be ok with it. Not terribly impressed, but ok.
With regards to the video, is that a Bosmer fighting for the Pact, or is that just to show that PVP uses dodgeroll a lot?Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.4 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭To challenge their reasoning without undermining their two goals, we'd have to ask:
- Are there sets other than Way of the Air that you can model Bosmer "balance" on? What would those sets be?
- Would it be possible to define a separate purpose/playstyle for Khajiit and Bosmer that would still allow them to share stealth bonuses?
- Is there an alternative way of keeping the races distinct, other than "fit for distinct purposes" or "fit for distinct playstyles"?
- Is "cohesion" in the passives actually necessary to accomplish Goals #1 and #2, especially at the cost of violating what should have been
(#3) Stay true the lore!
The problem is that their idea of "balance" is 100% PvP based.
They have the ability to alter your stats the second you enter a PvP zone, and they already do that to some point. A lot of the Alliance War passives are useless in PvE, and aren't even turned on until you zone into Cyro or a Battleground. They could certainly do the same with racial skills, ie: have one effect in PvP, a different effect in PvE. They are quite capable of making Hunter's Eye work this way:
Hunter's Eye
Rank III - Unlocked at Bosmer (Wood Elf) 50
Increases your ability to detect players in Stealth by 3m while in Player vs Player combat.
Decreases your ability to be detected while in Stealth by 3m everywhere else.
Gain 10% Movement Speed for 6s and a bonus to Physical and Spell Penetration of 1500 for the duration after using Roll Dodge.
They wouldn't have to take anything away from the current new passive, and they could return the lore friendly portion of the old passive so players can sneak through hostile monsters and be able to steal as they previously have for almost 5 years. And it still removes the old 10% damage from stealth bonus that they wanted to get rid of.
It's a win/win solution for both sides of the debate.
Edited by Jaraal on April 22, 2019 2:48AM7 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
[...]To challenge their reasoning without undermining their two goals, we'd have to ask:
- Are there sets other than Way of the Air that you can model Bosmer "balance" on? What would those sets be?
- Would it be possible to define a separate purpose/playstyle for Khajiit and Bosmer that would still allow them to share stealth bonuses?
- Is there an alternative way of keeping the races distinct, other than "fit for distinct purposes" or "fit for distinct playstyles"?
- Is "cohesion" in the passives actually necessary to accomplish Goals #1 and #2, especially at the cost of violating what should have been
(#3) Stay true the lore!
Hunter's Eye
Rank III - Unlocked at Bosmer (Wood Elf) 50
Increases your ability to detect players in Stealth by 3m while in Player vs Player combat.
Decreases your ability to be detected while in Stealth by 3m everywhere else.
Gain 10% Movement Speed for 6s and a bonus to Physical and Spell Penetration of 1500 for the duration after using Roll Dodge.
[...]
It's a win/win solution for both sides of the debate.
I wouldn't be happy with that at all. The detection bothers me in PvP because of the way it gives the enemy more information than you. My sneakiness should also extend to PvP. ZOS doesn't like these mechanics because they want consistency between PvP and PvE so that it is easier for PvE players to get into PvP instead of making it a completely separate world with its own rules.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.8 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭To challenge their reasoning without undermining their two goals, we'd have to ask:
- Are there sets other than Way of the Air that you can model Bosmer "balance" on? What would those sets be?
- Would it be possible to define a separate purpose/playstyle for Khajiit and Bosmer that would still allow them to share stealth bonuses?
- Is there an alternative way of keeping the races distinct, other than "fit for distinct purposes" or "fit for distinct playstyles"?
- Is "cohesion" in the passives actually necessary to accomplish Goals #1 and #2, especially at the cost of violating what should have been
Darkstride, Shadow Walker, Nightsilence would all be better than Way of the Air. I think Night Mother's Embrace would be ideal, if we replaced the weapon damage with a permanent penetration. We can even keep the movement speed on dodgeroll, because who says that a set needs to exist to be the model for Bosmer?
Hypothetical Bosmer set:
2item stam reg
3item stam reg
4item 1500 physical pen (just like Kra'gh or a stamina Flame Blossom)
5item 3m stealth radius. Gain 10% movement speed after dodgerolling for 6 seconds.
Put 2000 max stamina and poison resistance on top of that and everything is alright. Reduce the 1500 if you feel like they might get too strong and you have your 6.5 item set boni.
For making Khajiit and Bosmer distinct in stealth, I'd think about aggressive stealth vs defensive stealth. Make one better at escaping and the other better at getting closer. An effect that comes to mind is "getting hidden faster", which you can take advantage off even while you are in combat as long as you can avoid damage and not stay within detection range of the enemy. The one whose trying to attack benefits from cost reduction and speed way more. Speed is needed to catch up, cost reduction is needed to still have stam left to win the fight.
But in the end, I feel like goal 1 and 2 have already been accomplished well enough looking at every other passive that Khajiit and Bosmer have. One focuses on sustain, the other on crit. One is hybrid, the other is stamina. One has resistances, the other has not.
Right now I feel like Redguard and Bosmer are way too similar though. Both are stam sustain. One is better at weapons the other better at staying mobile, yet Redguard has snare reduction. They are both not stealthy. They pretty much fill the same niche, but one works as a tank and the other doesn't. That's all the distinction there is. If Bosmer were sneaky and had permanent peneration, they'd still be distinct and so that Bosmer aren't better Redguards, they could make Redguards sustain a bit better than Bosmer.Edited by Ratzkifal on April 22, 2019 3:35AMThis Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.4 -
wedgebert✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Tl;DR of what's behind the spoiler - 22 roll-dodges in 80 seconds, 6 kills, in the end enemies put elemental rage upon themselves to hide in it, as defensive measure, otherwise it will be 8 kills. Tell me now, how hunter's eye was useless to him.
It's not our place to tell you how it was useless. You're making the positive claim that it is useful.
Yes, he rolled around and looks like he had a near constant uptime on Hunter's Eye. But that doesn't mean it actually helped him.
Did the penetration buff actually let him kill someone where otherwise they would have survived? Did the speed buff likewise allow him to make an extra attack or two he wouldn't have otherwise gotten scoring him another kill? Or did it allow him to walk out of an attack that would have killed him?
I'm willing to get the answer to all three of those questions is no and that with zero points in Hunter's Eye, he would have ended that fight with the same six kills.10 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Tl;DR of what's behind the spoiler - 22 roll-dodges in 80 seconds, 6 kills, in the end enemies put elemental rage upon themselves to hide in it, as defensive measure, otherwise it will be 8 kills. Tell me now, how hunter's eye was useless to him.
It's not our place to tell you how it was useless. You're making the positive claim that it is useful.
Yes, he rolled around and looks like he had a near constant uptime on Hunter's Eye. But that doesn't mean it actually helped him.
Did the penetration buff actually let him kill someone where otherwise they would have survived? Did the speed buff likewise allow him to make an extra attack or two he wouldn't have otherwise gotten scoring him another kill? Or did it allow him to walk out of an attack that would have killed him?
I'm willing to get the answer to all three of those questions is no and that with zero points in Hunter's Eye, he would have ended that fight with the same six kills.
My post was counter-argument against "most PvP players who would rather be dealing damage than rolling around on the ground burning stamina like the Hunter's Eye passive" with Sniker's video as an example. You may bring other examples with tanky or magicka builds who roll-dodge more rarely, but what this builds has to do with bosmer, who is obviously archer in medium armor if we talk about lore-friendly role-playing.
About your questions. He used roll-dodge to avoid being hit by various things, including several fire clenches which will knock down him if not dodged, requiring him to break-free and outheal, which will cost way more resources then roll-dodge.
Speed is very useful because there is no auto-aim in ESO for players and despite big hitboxes it's way more difficult to hit fast moving target then slow-moving target. So roll-dodging and speed allowed him to regenerate resources to be offensive, which will be impossible otherwise if he spent them all on breaking free and healing (if he survived those knock downs at all).
About 2.27% damage bonus from penetration in PVP (3% in PVE) it may look too small to matter, but 129 base weapon damage brings comparable (slightly lower actually) increase in dps even with all buffs. Is 129 extra weapon damage useless? Answer is obvious I think. I'd personally prefer WD because it is useful for healing too and won't cause overpenetration in PVE group content, but we have what we have, penetration is still better then nothing.
We may continue this discussion in PM if you want more facts and numbers, because both arguments against and for roll-dodge/hunter's eye mislead this thread's original purpose.Edited by MartiniDaniels on April 22, 2019 3:32PM2 -
wedgebert✭✭✭✭✭I'm not arguing that roll-dodge isn't useful in PvP. I'm saying that you need to show that the fight would have turned out any differently if everything was exactly the same except he didn't have any points in Hunter's Eye.
I also agree that weapon damage is more useful because in PvE (where most things take place), Hunter's Eye's penetration is literally the same as nothing.2 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I wrote this in the worst race thread but I will reiterate it here;
The racial "Hunter's Eye" have turned Wood Elves into a "one-trick-pony" race.
When you pick a bosmer, AND you PvP, AND if you get the right gear, AND you play them in a particular niche way, suddenly the Bosmer racial kinda makes sense.
But if you PvE a Tank or DPS, or not play this niche build, then the racial is pointless. It's ike this race should have a "INTENDED FOR A PARTICULAR PLAYSTYLE IN PVP ONLY" warning sign placed on it.
Or maybe they can make them work for BOTH PvE and PvP?
And all they have to do, seriously, all they have to do is put back the original 3m stealth bonus back in. Then they can do whatever they want to the rest of it.
10 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So I'm in a delve in Cyrodiil last night, doing dailies on my Hunter's Eye equipped Bosmer tank. I get to the Boss's little room, he's not up, so I wait, crouched in the back of the alcove.
A minute passes by, and I see an enemy player cutting through the yard trash. She enters the room, sees me, and stealths. My weapon is drawn, expecting a fight.... none comes. Ok, this is another PvEer, trying to get boxes, like me.
I wait for a minute, can not for the life of me see this other player. The room is so small..... how can I, the new master of stealth detection, not see her? So I cast Evil Hunter.... and boom, there she is, no more than six feet away!
I'm sorry. I don't care what they thought they were doing, but this passive is just not working! Yes, I miss the stealth the most, but I can't even find a silver lining for this new racial skill.16 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Such usefulness, much wow.So I'm in a delve in Cyrodiil last night, doing dailies on my Hunter's Eye equipped Bosmer tank. I get to the Boss's little room, he's not up, so I wait, crouched in the back of the alcove.
A minute passes by, and I see an enemy player cutting through the yard trash. She enters the room, sees me, and stealths. My weapon is drawn, expecting a fight.... none comes. Ok, this is another PvEer, trying to get boxes, like me.
I wait for a minute, can not for the life of me see this other player. The room is so small..... how can I, the new master of stealth detection, not see her? So I cast Evil Hunter.... and boom, there she is, no more than six feet away!
I'm sorry. I don't care what they thought they were doing, but this passive is just not working! Yes, I miss the stealth the most, but I can't even find a silver lining for this new racial skill.
I was thinking about turning my goofy ice warden into an even more goofy ice warden tank at some point, just for giggles.
Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.5 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So I'm in a delve in Cyrodiil last night, doing dailies on my Hunter's Eye equipped Bosmer tank. I get to the Boss's little room, he's not up, so I wait, crouched in the back of the alcove.
A minute passes by, and I see an enemy player cutting through the yard trash. She enters the room, sees me, and stealths. My weapon is drawn, expecting a fight.... none comes. Ok, this is another PvEer, trying to get boxes, like me.
I wait for a minute, can not for the life of me see this other player. The room is so small..... how can I, the new master of stealth detection, not see her? So I cast Evil Hunter.... and boom, there she is, no more than six feet away!
I'm sorry. I don't care what they thought they were doing, but this passive is just not working! Yes, I miss the stealth the most, but I can't even find a silver lining for this new racial skill.
That's consistent with my testing. 3m are nothing in ESO. It can't even be explained with a translation from yards, being smaller than meters, because even for 3 yards it's a bit short. Hunter's Eye just gets your detection up enough that the enemy is just barely out of melee range when you detect them and that won't do you any good. Not to speak of Nightblades, who you only start to see through cloak if they bump into you!This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.4 -
JadeCoin✭✭✭✭That's consistent with my testing. 3m are nothing in ESO. It can't even be explained with a translation from yards, being smaller than meters, because even for 3 yards it's a bit short. Hunter's Eye just gets your detection up enough that the enemy is just barely out of melee range when you detect them and that won't do you any good. Not to speak of Nightblades, who you only start to see through cloak if they bump into you!
All of this makes me wonder whether they aren't planning to roll out (no pun intended) more sets like Way of the Air, making stealth detection stacking a thing.
Which still begs the question of why anyone would use it when there are already more effective measures in the game that defend against both ordinary stealth and cloaking.6 -
wedgebert✭✭✭✭✭All of this makes me wonder whether they aren't planning to roll out (no pun intended) more sets like Way of the Air, making stealth detection stacking a thing.
Which still begs the question of why anyone would use it when there are already more effective measures in the game that defend against both ordinary stealth and cloaking.
Nothing like stacking a few stealth detection sets so you can see the enemy coming right before they easily murder you because they're wearing sets with useful bonuses instead of stealth detection.
Edited by wedgebert on April 22, 2019 9:23PM13
This discussion has been closed.