Jaraal wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I created a NB Khajiit with everything stealth maxed on PTS, but I'm not sure how to test it.

I would guess find a stationary guard and inch closer towards them in stealth, and note at what distance your detection eye starts to open. Try it with just racial passive, then add one set, then two, etc.

Just make sure it's not a Bosmer guard, as they can detect you a few meters further away. Or at least that's how it should be, if they are staying true to the "new lore".

I saw no Bosmer guards in Elsweyr. I heard it's because it's hard to catch the sneaky thieves on the job as with the new "racial" Bosmers became even more visible. The words "sore thumb" come to mind ;P
On a serious note, thanks for the tips. I'll try it soon.

max_only wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I created a NB Khajiit with everything stealth maxed on PTS, but I'm not sure how to test it.

I would guess find a stationary guard and inch closer towards them in stealth, and note at what distance your detection eye starts to open. Try it with just racial passive, then add one set, then two, etc.

Just make sure it's not a Bosmer guard, as they can detect you a few meters further away. Or at least that's how it should be, if they are staying true to the "new lore".

I think all guards are coded the same.

Best way to test it would be to try it with a bounty like they did in https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455172/a-visual-of-khajiits-new-stealth-capability-stacking-is-quite-extreme#latest

Getting a bounty wasn't a problem. I just had no idea on how to make this...measurable I guess would be a proper word.

KMarble wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I created a NB Khajiit with everything stealth maxed on PTS, but I'm not sure how to test it.

I would guess find a stationary guard and inch closer towards them in stealth, and note at what distance your detection eye starts to open. Try it with just racial passive, then add one set, then two, etc.

Just make sure it's not a Bosmer guard, as they can detect you a few meters further away. Or at least that's how it should be, if they are staying true to the "new lore".

I saw no Bosmer guards in Elsweyr. I heard it's because it's hard to catch the sneaky thieves on the job as with the new "racial" Bosmers became even more visible. The words "sore thumb" come to mind ;P
On a serious note, thanks for the tips. I'll try it soon.

max_only wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I created a NB Khajiit with everything stealth maxed on PTS, but I'm not sure how to test it.

I would guess find a stationary guard and inch closer towards them in stealth, and note at what distance your detection eye starts to open. Try it with just racial passive, then add one set, then two, etc.

Just make sure it's not a Bosmer guard, as they can detect you a few meters further away. Or at least that's how it should be, if they are staying true to the "new lore".

I think all guards are coded the same.

Best way to test it would be to try it with a bounty like they did in https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455172/a-visual-of-khajiits-new-stealth-capability-stacking-is-quite-extreme#latest

Getting a bounty wasn't a problem. I just had no idea on how to make this...measurable I guess would be a proper word.

I measured it in a duel last time. You could try to get another player to help you. Just get yourself a home, place furniture in regular intervals and then say "three bookcases away".

I can do one with the stealth detection passive once I find a guard standing on a grid that doesn't move around.

Yeah, to be crystal clear, I want our stealth bonus back. Losing the flexibility to gear myself as I wanted and the lore behind my character is not replaceable by equipping one more stealth set (and a pretty mediocre stealth set at that). I certainly do not look at this as equivalent, even though if it makes it to live I'll probably use it.

Jaraal wrote: »

I guess if you could access and read the code you could get the raw numbers, but that's beyond my field of expertise.

Not only I have no idea how to do this, I doubt my computer would be able to run with yet another software and the game.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I measured it in a duel last time. You could try to get another player to help you. Just get yourself a home, place furniture in regular intervals and then say "three bookcases away".

Thank you for the suggestions. I'll try it as soon as the PVP part of the event starts.

That was less communication than a single statement. As soon as those changes were announced, Bosmer players registered their complaints regarding both the lore-breaking aspect and uselessness of the stealth detection in PvE (and PvP it turns out).

The only other thing I think they "communicated" was that they had plans to make stealth more accessible to all races, and until then Bosmer could at least enjoy having a "nice combat buff" until then. Which showed that the developers weren't paying attention to the players or their own changes because any decently optimized PvE character can't make use of Hunter's Eye in normal content and gets marginal at best benefit in veteran.

ZOS isn't really communicating with the players so much as they're occasionally communicating at them. And given the level of awareness they're showing when they do communicate (or make future changes like adding another stealth armor set that puts Khajiit almost back into the 100% chameleon realm again) shows how little they care (or even undrstand) about stealth gameplay.

Well, seeing how on Shor people are camping the daily quest locations to kill pacifists, this PvP week has quickly turned into a stealth event. It's only about how good can you sneak up to the quest giver.
Unfortunately for all EP and DC players, Shor is completely yellow and Bosmer are better at detecting the sneaking players...

Koronach wrote: »

The stated reason for removing stealth proficiency from Wood Elves is so that they will be distinct from Khajiit, where "equally proficient at stealth" is cashed out as "not distinct." In point of fact, ensuring that Bosmer and Khajiit are not equally skilled at being stealthy is in fact the only rationale they've ever really given us for the change.

So they took the stealth passive away from the race that has always been known as stealthy thieves. I wouldn't push that stealth detection passive on anyone but. Shouldn't Khajiit have it since they have night eye and can see people hiding in the shadows better? If they didn't let khajiit keep it to promote Elsweyr then they really don't know lore at all or common sense doesn't exist at ZoS.

If you dig really deep (not even that deep imo), which ZOS doesn't seem to have done, Bosmer are stealthier than Khajiit. Their forest coupling ability is better for stealth than the soft paws and camouflage fur patterns of Khajiit. The only reason Khajiit had a better sneak skill in Skyrim was because a lot of the skills Khajiit were known for got removed in Skyrim and had to be included somewhere.

In Oblivion Bosmer had a +5 to acrobatics and +10 to sneak and marksman! Note how in Oblivion stealth was weighed as equally important to Bosmer as their bow skills.
Khajiit had +10 to acrobatics +5 to athletics, +5 to security (aka lockpicking) and +5 to sneak.
Seeing how Khajiit's greatest bonus (besides hand-to-hand) doesn't have an equivalent in Skyrim, it's quite obvious why they would boost their sneak, which pushed them ahead of Bosmer in Skyrim.

In ESO we do have acrobatics! It's called dodgerolling. That wasn't a thing in Skyrim unless you had a perk and even then it served pretty much no purpose. So I am wondering why Khajiit doesn't have a reduced dodgeroll cost. Having detection does make sense on Khajiit too, but I wouldn't wish that on anyone really. Their sneaking is more important than detecting enemies as Nightvision doesn't necessarily mean you'll detect better. It just means darkness doesn't protect you. It's a different story if they have better smell and hearing senses too, but even then not at the cost of their sneak skill. NEVER at the cost of anyone's sneak skill!

BTW Argonians were pretty good at lockpicking in Oblivion and Skyrim, which is why I consider them to be a "stealth race" too. Dunmer weren't exactly as good with sneaking as with using weapons that assassins would choose. Both of them were also good at athletics, which would increase your running speed. Bosmer didn't have a bonus to that, so the dodgeroll movement speed doesn't even make sense there!

No matter from where I look at it, the Hunter's Eye passive is not based in already existing lore nor previous games and would need new lore like the Altmer passive (which btw is very logically lacking, thanks to Alteration not being an exclusive Altmer thing).

As much as it pains me to say, the current version of Bosmer in ESO are nothing like the Bosmer in lore or previous games. They are more like adorable stamina goblins. Or Falmer.
Dunmer would go balistic if their race got all it's ties to fire removed. The small outburst from the fire damage removal is proof of that. Dunmer LOVE fire.
Altmer would go (and have gone) balistic if they weren't magical anymore.
Redguards have their weapon mastery.
Bretons have magic and magic resistance.
Nords are hard to kill.
Orcs deal lots of damage and are hard to kill and come charging at you, which makes you pee your pants in fear.
Khajiit still have stealth whenever they are lacking martial arts.
Imperials are the jack of all trades.
Argonians... well they have alchemy, disease and poi- I mean... They are slightly magical?
At least the nerfs to sustain food will probably put Bosmer in a better spot as archers, so at least that is coming back.

Sorry for the rant.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

The stated reason for removing stealth proficiency from Wood Elves is so that they will be distinct from Khajiit, where "equally proficient at stealth" is cashed out as "not distinct." In point of fact, ensuring that Bosmer and Khajiit are not equally skilled at being stealthy is in fact the only rationale they've ever really given us for the change.

So they took the stealth passive away from the race that has always been known as stealthy thieves. I wouldn't push that stealth detection passive on anyone but. Shouldn't Khajiit have it since they have night eye and can see people hiding in the shadows better? If they didn't let khajiit keep it to promote Elsweyr then they really don't know lore at all or common sense doesn't exist at ZoS.

As much as it pains me to say, the current version of Bosmer in ESO are nothing like the Bosmer in lore or previous games. They are more like adorable stamina goblins. Or Falmer.

There are no Bosmer in the game now at all. Imga, maybe, sure. Or Ohmes -- maybe that was the plan, to turn all Bosmer into Khajiit for the expansion.

Jaraal wrote: »

They know how many players love the Justice playstyle, as much as they are aware of how many people use the stealth aspect of PvP. So I believe they made a planned decision to make Bosmer unattractive for these builds, in order to force people to play cats in the hope that they can get used to the race, or decide that "Hey, cats aren't all that bad after all."

I don't have the inside track on this or anything, and as others have already emphasized, the lack of communication can only give rise to speculation. But my feeling is that they in fact don't know how many players love the Justice playstyle, or don't understand those players, or don't really understand what the playstyle entails. Or at least the combat team that did the racial rebalancing doesn't.

There is combat that involves stealth, but Justice playstyle stealth isn't combat. So it just doesn't factor into a combat-centric reordering of the racial passives. They're blinkered in that respect.

The reason I feel this way is that if you look at the racial "diversity" and "choices" they created, it's all centered around group PvE (options for the "classics": mag dps, stam dps, healer, tank), where stealth is irrelevant, and around PvP, where stealth equates to ganking and measures against ganking. They separated Bosmer and Khajiit to make them distinct in PvP, and the heartbreaking impact on lore-immersed Bosmer thieves was just a casual side effect of the changes that actually mattered to the folks in charge. I think that Justice system stealth wasn't really on their radar at all, or if it was, it was an afterthought.

That's why I'm not optimistic about an upcoming overhaul of the stealth system, at least not with the current team in charge. Justice system play doesn't look like a priority for them.

Jaraal wrote: »

Nobody is saying you have to have a Khajiit player to play in a Khajiit zone. But you may like cat people a little bit more if they provide something you need. You may actually grow to love them, and when you are on the fence about spending the cash on the new chapter, a little kitty love might be just the thing to get you to reach for that credit card.

If the team discussed which race to change with regards to stealth proficiency, under the assumption that they "had" to take it away from one or the other, then it does seem likely that the upcoming chapter factored in somehow. But perhaps only in the sense that if they had to anger one group of players (who would, they hoped, cool down eventually), it would be a bad idea to anger the ones who play Khajiit, immediately before the release of a chapter they were sure to purchase. Hype about Khajiit might also make it more palatable to switch from elf to kitty with the free race change token. And then I'd imagine that dialog and storylines for the new chapter had been written, featuring the Khajiit as thieves, which no one would be changing retroactively.

Then again, it's also possible they just looked at the existing passives and thought, which one is the closest fit?

Khajiit have pickpocketing bonus => thieves.
Bosmer can fall from heights without damage => acrobats.

To anyone with a deep knowledge of the lore it seems laughable, but the thought process may have been as simple as that.

Jaraal wrote: »

Nobody is saying you have to have a Khajiit player to play in a Khajiit zone. But you may like cat people a little bit more if they provide something you need. You may actually grow to love them, and when you are on the fence about spending the cash on the new chapter, a little kitty love might be just the thing to get you to reach for that credit card.

Maybe I just don't agree because that would never work on me... I never liked or cared for Redguards, so I never made one, despite them being BiS on stamina for so long. The fact that everyone was saying "go Redguard" actually pushed me further away. Similarly I don't have facebook. The more people tell me to get it, the less I want to get it. The only reason why I would ever race change is because I am personally not satisfied with my character and feel like they don't meet my expectations.
Meta never mattered in that to me, but the lore always has. It was to my expectations that those would go hand in hand most of the time though... That it doesn't anymore sure feels a bit like betrayal and that's the reason I stopped subscribing nor prepurchased Elsweyr. I'll need a concrete sign of good will from ZOS first before I'll consider it.
The fact that we have nothing official, not even a "soon" from them is also the reason I stopped recommending the game to my friends. Even though none of them stuck around, I got like seven friends to buy the game before. I used to be damn excited about it damnit! Give the Bosmer back what is theirs! You are making Y'ffre cry!