MLGProPlayer wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

would love to see someone test out the stam races with something other than rele/AY .

Like maybe VO/hundings or something similar (good but not BIS). You know, to see how rigidly different races need to follow the "BIS" brigade.

Differences between races are independent of gear. The gaps in DPS won't change if you swap out gear.

The only exception might be a race like Khajiit which might benefit more from crit gear (but still won't be competitive with the top races).

LiquidPony wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

@LiquidPony

This may not be the place to ask this, but I have a question about the methodology of dps parses.

Also I am not intending this question to be an attack or a criticism on you or anyone else, but just a question.

•••

I have noticed that the passes I have seen involve race/class with extremely good (gold) gear with full enchants.

My question is why is this done? Would not a "White gear" pass that gives a baseline dps of the different races be better to see how they are performing?

I am not saying that the gold gear passes are not noteworthy, but from an outsider it seems to be a dps parse of "race + gear", rather then a dps parse of just the race, if you get my meaning.

Just wondering. Thank you.

First, for most of the template gear on PTS, there is no such thing as "white gear" (and even in-game, Perfect Relequen/Sioria is at least Purple quality, same with Maelstrom weapons). Some of it (Ability Altering Weapons like Maelstrom/Asylum weapons, and Monster sets) comes in gold quality by default on PTS. None of the meta-level stuff is ever white even on Live, and all of the template gear on PTS is purple or gold.

Second ... I don't see any point in testing unrealistic setups. I'm testing how the various races will perform with a setup I'll actually use in-game. The gear/CP/skills are usually uniform across races unless some considerations have to be made for sustain or whatever.

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Bosmer outsustains redguard, the supposed stam sustain race in at least 3 out of the 5 classes while having a speed bonus and resists. Yes the 258 stam regen is much more than you think in reality. The snare resistance is borderline useless especially when it is multiplicative. Every race but redguard has some sort of dmg mitigation or hp passive

Bosmer has lost its flavor in a way by removing stealth detection radius reduction and stealth damage. Kinda strange that a tiny bosmer is just as noticable as a large orc or nord.

Redguard is good on anything that uses a weapon skill as a main attack, so Wardens/Stam Sorcs/Stam DK

And also....Magicka Sorc...right now you can make an absolutely beast most Magicka Sorc with Redguard.

But bosmer is better for sustain (which redguard is supposed to excel at) and orc for damage for stam. With bosmer's and orc's high mobility, orc's tankyness and high dmg, and bosmer' high regen, why choose a redguard? Dont say the snare reduction passive. It turns a 40% snare into a 34% snare. And a 70% snare into a 59.5% snare. With most stam builds running shuffle/fm this is moot.

For mag, I can agree with you somewhat, though you have to admit it seems a bit off. A stam race as a mag toon.
Even so, Altmer has much more damage while having good stam sustain.

You're better off with Redguard if you use a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Shrouded Daggers, Rending Slashes, Wrecking Blow, etc.). You're better off with Bosmer if you don't. Both still have excellent sustain for all stam builds.

I can't say for PvP, but for PvE, I'd pick Redguard over Bosmer on a stamsorc and stamDK. Stamplars will see slightly better sustain as a Bosmer but the 8% cost reduction of Ballista for a Redguard is a factor as well. That 8% cost reduction on weapon ultimates may move the needle for some PvP builds as well.

With the sustain, utility and resists bosmer gets, I see no reason to choose redguard over it. A bosmer, unless you are permablocking or sprinting will always have their regen ticking while a redguard needs a target to take full advantage.

As I said elsewhere, I have actually tested Redguard vs. Bosmer on a variety of builds. If you are using a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Shrouded Daggers, or Wrecking Blow), Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer.

Bosmer with Crushing Weapon:


Redguard with Rapid Strikes:


In fact, on a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, even using Lavafoot food, it is not possible to sustain a full LA rotation on a 6mil skeleton. On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, it is.

? Srsly. Ok, I guess that 4 extra DPs is worth being relegated to a rapid striking Stamsorc.

Ermagerd.

The point is the sustain. A Redguard using a weapon spammable has better sustain than a Bosmer and they have the same DPS bonus of +2000 max stam. Simple fact. End of story.

If you are using a weapon spammable, be it Rapid Strikes or Rending Slashes or Shrouded Daggers or Wrecking Blow or Focused Aim, you probably want to pick Redguard. If not, pick Bosmer.

It's very simple.

You posted the net 4 DPs difference, not me. They have the same sustain, except the Bosmer has more options in relation to class and skill choice. Stam Regen will scale with armour and buffs, adrenaline rush & martial training will not. The 15% snare reduction is a joke, while the roll dodge speed buff will be a useful tool. End of story. Speaking of Bosmers, the roll/pen thing is ridiculous. I support rolling that back for a stealth buff for Bosmers.

@CurvedSwords123

I'll try this again ...

Redguard and Bosmer have identical pure damage passives. Agreed? +2000 Max Stamina. That's it. If you set a Redguard and a Bosmer up the same way, with a rotation that they can sustain, they'll do the same DPS.

The question at hand here is: are there cases in which Redguard sustain passives are more powerful than Bosmer +258 regen?

The answer is: yes.

Which is why I posted CMX parses that demonstrate the difference in stam regen/drain differential.

On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, the differential is about -180 stam per second on average. On a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, it's about -220 stam per second on average.

Ergo, the Redguard has stronger sustain.

In practice this means that a Redguard can sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Rapid Strikes. A Bosmer cannot sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Crushing Weapon or Rapid Strikes.

So when I said "If you are using a weapon spammable, Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer", and then followed that with CMX screenshots, those screenshots were meant to demonstrate the point that Redguards have better sustain than Bosmer. But I guess maybe that wasn't clear?

It was completely clear, your point is inconsequential though. Asian god who is a more proven analyst than you said "Bosmer has better sustain than Redguards in most cases" and didn't even bother to add Redguard in his parse analysis. The best evidence you could provide, in the best case for, demonstrated a net difference of four DPs. I can easily chalk up a handful of heavy attacks to operator deficiency. I wonder what the other parses looked like with other classes btw?
-would you agree a pen bonus on a roll dodge (no matter how ridiculous) gives the Wood elf a burst advantage?
-would you agree poison resist and poisoned immunity gives them a toughness advantage?
-do you understand what I mean by scaleable passive?
-would you rather have a speed boost on a roll, or an immaterial snare reduction you won't even feel?

Alcast's assessment of the upcoming RG is correct, your posts are utterly vapid.

Th3asiangod's stam race comparison was on a stamblade. How is that even relevant to this discussion? Stamblades don't use weapon spammables. They use a grand total of 3 weapon skills in a normal rotation.

You don't seem to understand the underlying point here: Bosmer and Redguard DPS should be the same. Since you're parroting Th3asiangod's conclusions at me, maybe you should've actually listened when he said: "Bosmer results can also be used as Redguard results". They have the same DPS passives. In a stamblade test, where Redguard/Bosmer sustain is irrelevant when you can easily solo sustain a 6mil parse on an Orc or Dunmer, Redguard and Bosmer should do exactly the same DPS because they will use exactly the same setup with exactly the same rotation with exactly the same damage passives. This is elementary.

There are scenarios where Redguards have better sustain and there are scenarios where Bosmer have better sustain. Extremely straightforward, easy to deduce just from looking at the passives, and easy to test.

The roll dodge passive is irrelevant in PvE. The poison resistance is irrelevant in PvE.

I already demonstrated the effect of the scaling of +258 stamina regen in my prior post. It still results in less net sustain than Redguards have when using a weapon spammable. The Bosmer stam regen passive is boosted by 83% in my stamsorc parses (which is about as high as it gets in PvE, with the exception of a stamblade where you'd be at 88% with Minor Endurance).

This is a simple fact and I don't have any idea how to state it more clearly: if you are using a weapon spammable, Redguards have better sustain. From a pure end-game PvE min-maxing perspective, there are builds where Redguard is a better choice.

But really, you shouldn't believe me, and you shouldn't believe Th3asiangod, and you shouldn't believe Alcast. You should test it yourself and reach your own conclusions rather than just mindlessly repeating someone else's.

To play the devils advocate, the poison resistance is useful in 1st boss vhof, vso in general, and in many dungeons

He understands the woodelf technically offers more. No one is that clueless. He just thinks we should be happy because we have a non noticeable advantage on WEP skill spammable casts, on solo dummy parses.

Truly ZOS should cut Bosmer recovery to half and then give 1500 penetration bonus,

This will not stop anything but will bring many others to forum who really like Bosmer massive regen and 2k stamina stats.

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Bosmer outsustains redguard, the supposed stam sustain race in at least 3 out of the 5 classes while having a speed bonus and resists. Yes the 258 stam regen is much more than you think in reality. The snare resistance is borderline useless especially when it is multiplicative. Every race but redguard has some sort of dmg mitigation or hp passive

Bosmer has lost its flavor in a way by removing stealth detection radius reduction and stealth damage. Kinda strange that a tiny bosmer is just as noticable as a large orc or nord.

Redguard is good on anything that uses a weapon skill as a main attack, so Wardens/Stam Sorcs/Stam DK

And also....Magicka Sorc...right now you can make an absolutely beast most Magicka Sorc with Redguard.

But bosmer is better for sustain (which redguard is supposed to excel at) and orc for damage for stam. With bosmer's and orc's high mobility, orc's tankyness and high dmg, and bosmer' high regen, why choose a redguard? Dont say the snare reduction passive. It turns a 40% snare into a 34% snare. And a 70% snare into a 59.5% snare. With most stam builds running shuffle/fm this is moot.

For mag, I can agree with you somewhat, though you have to admit it seems a bit off. A stam race as a mag toon.
Even so, Altmer has much more damage while having good stam sustain.

You're better off with Redguard if you use a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Shrouded Daggers, Rending Slashes, Wrecking Blow, etc.). You're better off with Bosmer if you don't. Both still have excellent sustain for all stam builds.

I can't say for PvP, but for PvE, I'd pick Redguard over Bosmer on a stamsorc and stamDK. Stamplars will see slightly better sustain as a Bosmer but the 8% cost reduction of Ballista for a Redguard is a factor as well. That 8% cost reduction on weapon ultimates may move the needle for some PvP builds as well.

With the sustain, utility and resists bosmer gets, I see no reason to choose redguard over it. A bosmer, unless you are permablocking or sprinting will always have their regen ticking while a redguard needs a target to take full advantage.

As I said elsewhere, I have actually tested Redguard vs. Bosmer on a variety of builds. If you are using a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Shrouded Daggers, or Wrecking Blow), Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer.

Bosmer with Crushing Weapon:


Redguard with Rapid Strikes:


In fact, on a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, even using Lavafoot food, it is not possible to sustain a full LA rotation on a 6mil skeleton. On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, it is.

? Srsly. Ok, I guess that 4 extra DPs is worth being relegated to a rapid striking Stamsorc.

Ermagerd.

The point is the sustain. A Redguard using a weapon spammable has better sustain than a Bosmer and they have the same DPS bonus of +2000 max stam. Simple fact. End of story.

If you are using a weapon spammable, be it Rapid Strikes or Rending Slashes or Shrouded Daggers or Wrecking Blow or Focused Aim, you probably want to pick Redguard. If not, pick Bosmer.

It's very simple.

You posted the net 4 DPs difference, not me. They have the same sustain, except the Bosmer has more options in relation to class and skill choice. Stam Regen will scale with armour and buffs, adrenaline rush & martial training will not. The 15% snare reduction is a joke, while the roll dodge speed buff will be a useful tool. End of story. Speaking of Bosmers, the roll/pen thing is ridiculous. I support rolling that back for a stealth buff for Bosmers.

@CurvedSwords123

I'll try this again ...

Redguard and Bosmer have identical pure damage passives. Agreed? +2000 Max Stamina. That's it. If you set a Redguard and a Bosmer up the same way, with a rotation that they can sustain, they'll do the same DPS.

The question at hand here is: are there cases in which Redguard sustain passives are more powerful than Bosmer +258 regen?

The answer is: yes.

Which is why I posted CMX parses that demonstrate the difference in stam regen/drain differential.

On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, the differential is about -180 stam per second on average. On a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, it's about -220 stam per second on average.

Ergo, the Redguard has stronger sustain.

In practice this means that a Redguard can sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Rapid Strikes. A Bosmer cannot sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Crushing Weapon or Rapid Strikes.

So when I said "If you are using a weapon spammable, Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer", and then followed that with CMX screenshots, those screenshots were meant to demonstrate the point that Redguards have better sustain than Bosmer. But I guess maybe that wasn't clear?

It was completely clear, your point is inconsequential though. Asian god who is a more proven analyst than you said "Bosmer has better sustain than Redguards in most cases" and didn't even bother to add Redguard in his parse analysis. The best evidence you could provide, in the best case for, demonstrated a net difference of four DPs. I can easily chalk up a handful of heavy attacks to operator deficiency. I wonder what the other parses looked like with other classes btw?
-would you agree a pen bonus on a roll dodge (no matter how ridiculous) gives the Wood elf a burst advantage?
-would you agree poison resist and poisoned immunity gives them a toughness advantage?
-do you understand what I mean by scaleable passive?
-would you rather have a speed boost on a roll, or an immaterial snare reduction you won't even feel?

Alcast's assessment of the upcoming RG is correct, your posts are utterly vapid.

Th3asiangod's stam race comparison was on a stamblade. How is that even relevant to this discussion? Stamblades don't use weapon spammables. They use a grand total of 3 weapon skills in a normal rotation.

You don't seem to understand the underlying point here: Bosmer and Redguard DPS should be the same. Since you're parroting Th3asiangod's conclusions at me, maybe you should've actually listened when he said: "Bosmer results can also be used as Redguard results". They have the same DPS passives. In a stamblade test, where Redguard/Bosmer sustain is irrelevant when you can easily solo sustain a 6mil parse on an Orc or Dunmer, Redguard and Bosmer should do exactly the same DPS because they will use exactly the same setup with exactly the same rotation with exactly the same damage passives. This is elementary.

There are scenarios where Redguards have better sustain and there are scenarios where Bosmer have better sustain. Extremely straightforward, easy to deduce just from looking at the passives, and easy to test.

The roll dodge passive is irrelevant in PvE. The poison resistance is irrelevant in PvE.

I already demonstrated the effect of the scaling of +258 stamina regen in my prior post. It still results in less net sustain than Redguards have when using a weapon spammable. The Bosmer stam regen passive is boosted by 83% in my stamsorc parses (which is about as high as it gets in PvE, with the exception of a stamblade where you'd be at 88% with Minor Endurance).

This is a simple fact and I don't have any idea how to state it more clearly: if you are using a weapon spammable, Redguards have better sustain. From a pure end-game PvE min-maxing perspective, there are builds where Redguard is a better choice.

But really, you shouldn't believe me, and you shouldn't believe Th3asiangod, and you shouldn't believe Alcast. You should test it yourself and reach your own conclusions rather than just mindlessly repeating someone else's conclusions.

Don't make me lol, the purpose of the Stam NB is that is the top Stam performer. The correlation between Stam NB and stam race performance is painfully obvious. I did listen to what Asian god said and I quoted it verbatim, you being snide won't change that. I can apply a simple understanding of scaling and game mechanics to understand in most scenarios the Wood Elf is preferable. I can think about what is provided for a mere second and realize the woof elf has more versatility and will scale better in a group. Perhaps you understand this as well and that's why you won't address anything I said.

The only way that a Bosmer will "scale better in a group" is via a Warden Healer with Enchanted Growth, which will grant Minor Endurance and boost their regen by a whopping 25.8 (which still doesn't cover the spread; a Redguard stamsorc will still have better sustain than a Bosmer stamsorc even if you add Minor Endurance).

Stamblade tests apply to stamblades. It is unbelievably stupid to extrapolate those results to some other class.

If we're talking PvE stamblades, Bosmer and Redguards are both trashcans and don't hold a candle to Orcs or Dunmer or even Khajiit. Again, totally irrelevant to this conversation, which from the very first comment I made was about builds that use weapon spammables. Stamblade is literally the worst possible PvE build for a Redguard going forward, because they have the best sustain, they use very few weapon skills, and they don't use a weapon ultimate.

What's unbelievably stupid is not realizing Stam NB is representative of Stam classes with their own skills, and as the high water mark for Stam dps. I don't believe for a second endurance buffs won't tip the favour for woof elf in a group environment, and neither do you, you are just dithering now. I am talking about wholistic racial benefit this patch will provide, in a comparitive sense. My post history is clear in that regard. For the last time your findings for this niche advantage are inconsequential. I feel completely confident trusting Alcast's analysis and so should you.

When you say "endurance buffs", are you implying that there is some other "endurance buff" you're getting from a group other than Minor Endurance from a Warden Healer? What exactly do you mean by that?

Maybe this exercise will help clarify things for me.

Here are two basically identical parses on a stamsorc from a Redguard and a Bosmer. Both using Rending Slashes as a spammable, as is "meta" for a PvE stamsorc on Live. Same gear, same CP, same rotation, same DPS. In this case, the Bosmer regen passive is boosted (as before) by 83% (Major Endurance +20%, Vampirism +10%, Medium Armor +28%, Daedric Protection +20%, CP +15%). In this case, unlike the prior CMX parses, there are no heavy attacks or other differences to confuse the issue. You can see the difference in Base Regeneration (factoring in the extra tick of base regen on the Redguard, the difference works out to exactly what it should: about +215 stam per second with buffs).

Redguard:


Bosmer:


The Bosmer has a stamina drain differential of -132. The Redguard has a stamina drain differential of -78. So the Redguard has +54 stam per second, the equivalent of +108 buffed effective stam regen.

So what group buffs are there that are going to boost the Bosmer's sustain past the Redguard's? I'm all ears, because if I'm going to get better sustain on my Live stamsorc with a Bosmer then I'll gladly change it from Redguard to Bosmer.

Minor Endurance (Increase stamina recovery by 10%)
Spoiler
Fighters Guild Ability: Circle of Protection+Morphs
Templar Restorning Light Ability: Restoring Aura+Morphs
Nightblade Assassination Ability: Relentless Focus (Morph of Grim Focus)
Warden Green Balance Ability: Enchanted Growth (Morph of Fungal Growth)

Those are your minor endurance sources.

Of course major endurance source is potions.

I could've sworn there was a templar synergy that bestowed Stam endurance? Maybe I'm wrong. Regardless it doesn't make a difference.

There is also synergy for wood elves with vampirism, which you mentioned.

You may as well switch your Bosmer over for the extra passives. He will perform just as well as your Redguard Stamsorc next patch. That dodge roll speed buff with the poison defense will be noticeable in PvP as well.

Again, I'm concerned about wholistic racial benefit, not niche sustain advantage. You do realize you just illustrated the best case scenario for Redguards in Wraithstone and you achieved the same results with Woodelf? Show me your nightblade and templar parses between these two races.

So ... in the end, exactly what I said. The only buff in play here is Minor Endurance, and it still doesn't cover the gap.

There is no good reason to switch a PvE build using a weapon spammable on Live from Redguard to Bosmer. It doesn't make sense. I'm not giving up 100 stam regen for some superfluous poison resistance that will have a negligible impact in 1% of the PvE game.

And yes, as I've said again and again and again, the Redguard advantage does not apply to builds that don't use weapon spammables. On a stamblade, Bosmer and Redguard hit the same numbers. On a stamden, Bosmer and Redguard hit the same numbers. Stamplar is an interesting case because, as far as what the "meta" is in PvE, it's the only stam build that normally uses a weapon ultimate. So Bosmer will have slightly better sustain, but Redguard will have cheaper Ballista.

Stamblade, stamden = Bosmer preferred
Stamsorc, stamDK (assuming weapon spammable) = Redguard preferred
Stamplar = open to interpretation

There's nothing unbalanced about this. The two stam sustain races have different specialties when it comes to PvE and you can choose either one in most cases and not see a significant difference.

Neither race is preferred when we're talking about absolute min-maxing of DPS, so if holistic racial benefit is really your concern, then you're barking up the wrong tree because Bosmer and Redguard are both going to be afterthoughts while Orcs are going to dominate stam race selection in basically all aspects of the game.

My quam was never with Bosmers per se, and yes that is my concern. I don't even care about PvE, I'm mad because I'm going to feel disadvtaged in PVP. My point was Bosmers aren't pigeon holed like Redguards are and you aren't providing anything to the contrary. I just gave you a list of synergistic benefits for Stam that Redguard passives won't enjoy. Outside of those minor endurance buffs, Wood elves have more synergistic opportunities with class passives (NB %15 Stam Regen and vamp comes to mind), with Stam Regen sets. My only point in RG vs WE is that Bosmer is more versatile and will have
synergistic benefits, that their flavour passives are more useful. This is an unimpeachable fact Pony. Liked Alcast said, Redguard needs more. And for the record, I don't believe for a second a Redguard would keep up to a Bosmer in nightblade parses. No one is going to be able to justify running Redguard unless they are a Stamsorc, even then the diff between the more versatile Bosmer is immaterial. The Bosmer does have speed and poison defense, just because you don't care about it doesn't make Redguard vs Bosmer a net 0 comparison.

I'm really curious as to why you "don't believe for a second" that a Redguard and a Bosmer would parse the same on a stamblade. They have exactly the same damage bonuses and neither one will have any issue sustaining the parse.

Can you explain?

Redguard


Bosmer