Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Linaleah · February 2019

just piping in. my bosmer girl is in terms of roleplay - an assassin and a thief. in terms of gameplay, she is the character I do my stealing and my back stabbing - again in pve. losing that stealth bonus for a passive that is 100% useless for me .. she is now feeling like my imperial sorc used to where i just didn't take a red diamond passive at all. I thought the goal of re-balancing in part was to make all the passives MORE useful to MORE people and playstyles? NOT fewer? did i misunderstand?

Ratzkifal · February 2019

mxxo wrote: »

Shadowasrial wrote: »

I agree. Personally I would just leave Bosmer where it is currently on live servers. Crit from stealth and detection. Woodelves unlike the khajit are not magic oriented so if you want more of a hybrid stamina magic nb use the furry race. But for us archers and stam assassins keep things as they are.

Thats not true. Only a minority of the Khajiit has an affinity to magic. And all Bosmer had always an affinity to alteration, illusion, healing and alchemy.

Apart from healing, none of these are really reflectable in the stats existing in ESO. Destruction and Conjuration are spell damage, Restoration is healing, and Alteration would be sort of a defensive/utility magic stat. Illusion could only be represented by a magical dodge chance, which already sounds ridiculous. Buffing magic overall makes them also good at destruction and conjuration, thus not separating them enough from Altmer and Dunmer imo.

Bows and agility and STEALTHINESS are a much better theme to represent Bosmer in ESO.
Personally I think Khajiit shouldn't have been buffed for magic damage, because the majority of Khajiit aren't all that magical - just like Nords - while Dunmer, Altmer, Bretons and (to an extend) Imperials are. Still it's not really that bothersome to me since unlike Nords, there does in fact exist an entire breed of magic cats other than the Alfiq.

WhyMustItBe · February 2019

max_only wrote: »

This change goes against the original vision, the established precedent, in-universe realism, and the lore within the game itself.

But it sells more race change tokens. All arguments neutralized!

Ratzkifal · February 2019

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

This change goes against the original vision, the established precedent, in-universe realism, and the lore within the game itself.

But it sells more race change tokens. All arguments neutralized!

@WhyMustItBe I don't even think that's true. If that was the case they would have kicked Redguard off the sustain throne and replaced them with Bosmer so all the meta chasers switch to Bosmer to be "BiS" again. I suspect that Bosmer mains are more likely to stop playing than to switch to Khajiit simply to keep their sneaking passive, since they would have made a Khajiit if they wanted to play one.

BlueRaven · February 2019

Linaleah wrote: »

just piping in. my bosmer girl is in terms of roleplay - an assassin and a thief. in terms of gameplay, she is the character I do my stealing and my back stabbing - again in pve. losing that stealth bonus for a passive that is 100% useless for me .. she is now feeling like my imperial sorc used to where i just didn't take a red diamond passive at all. I thought the goal of re-balancing in part was to make all the passives MORE useful to MORE people and playstyles? NOT fewer? did i misunderstand?

I have to agree. Actually if I was game designer I would have found a way to add stealth to the Dunmer and Argonians as well as Assassinations play a huge part in their cultures.

Esha76 · February 2019

My very first character, created way back during early access, is a Bosmer Nightblade. She is still my main today, and I greatly dislike losing the sneak passive. I can understand it being adjusted, and Khajiit being better at sneaking, but all out removal is rather disappointing.

All though, did I hear/see Rich Lambert say something about changes coming where people can specialize their characters in sneaking? I typically don't fabricate memories, only voices in my head.

BlueRaven · February 2019

Esha76 wrote: »

My very first character, created way back during early access, is a Bosmer Nightblade. She is still my main today, and I greatly dislike losing the sneak passive. I can understand it being adjusted, and Khajiit being better at sneaking, but all out removal is rather disappointing.

All though, did I hear/see Rich Lambert say something about changes coming where people can specialize their characters in sneaking? I typically don't fabricate memories, only voices in my head.

This is the quote;

"ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high. Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation. Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456997/class-reps-update-meeting-notes-jan-30-2019/p1

But when this is happening is not known. We may see something in Elsweyr, we may see something in year or three. We don't know.

zyk · February 2019

@ZOS_GinaBruno Do you guys not realize that the race changes are heartbreaking to many players? You really dropped the ball on this.

I am shocked by the Bosmer thing, actually. ZOS could *EASILY* allow Bosmer to retain their stealth passive with no pushback from the playerbase whatsoever.

This is ZOS being stubborn, pure and simple. They clearly resent their vocal playerbase to the point where they will refuse to toss us such an easy bone.

For the record, I don't have any Bosmer characters.

Sylvermynx · February 2019

Eh.... "nice combat buff" - not for me in pve. Just as well I don't play my Bosmer as stealthy types anyway.

Ratzkifal · February 2019

Yes, but I see that really problematic.

creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race.

Why? I want to play a Bosmer normally and not need to gimp myself with a bad set that allows me to have what Khajiits have all the time. This feels like the time when ZOS didn't give us inventory space because only few people bought the 200th item slot in bank and bag.
It's not that people are afraid that ZOS is nerfing stealth. It's that people are afraid ZOS is removing a core theme from Bosmer!

mxxo · February 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

mxxo wrote: »

Shadowasrial wrote: »

I agree. Personally I would just leave Bosmer where it is currently on live servers. Crit from stealth and detection. Woodelves unlike the khajit are not magic oriented so if you want more of a hybrid stamina magic nb use the furry race. But for us archers and stam assassins keep things as they are.

Thats not true. Only a minority of the Khajiit has an affinity to magic. And all Bosmer had always an affinity to alteration, illusion, healing and alchemy.

Apart from healing, none of these are really reflectable in the stats existing in ESO. Destruction and Conjuration are spell damage, Restoration is healing, and Alteration would be sort of a defensive/utility magic stat. Illusion could only be represented by a magical dodge chance, which already sounds ridiculous. Buffing magic overall makes them also good at destruction and conjuration, thus not separating them enough from Altmer and Dunmer imo.

Bows and agility and STEALTHINESS are a much better theme to represent Bosmer in ESO.
Personally I think Khajiit shouldn't have been buffed for magic damage, because the majority of Khajiit aren't all that magical - just like Nords - while Dunmer, Altmer, Bretons and (to an extend) Imperials are. Still it's not really that bothersome to me since unlike Nords, there does in fact exist an entire breed of magic cats other than the Alfiq.

Thats a bit simple. Orcs can use a destruction staff, too. So the point that a bit Magicka makes them "good" is not valid. I didnt say give them Spell Damage.

You are right about Khajiit: its more likely that the average Bosmer is able to utilize Magic than the average Khajiit.

TheMythicDawn · February 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Why are people talking about class reps when the class reps neither have a say in these changes nor an actual authority on the matter? We don't have race reps. Sure, I think it sucks that none of them address Bosmer, but I think the reason that is is because nobody was playing Bosmer before. Certainly not class reps which are expected to play the most optimal builds, and Bosmer has never been "the most optimal" for anything.

If you take this issue seriously, then keep posting and give constructive criticism.

reps are being brought up because its entirely relevant to the discussion. they are supposed to look at feedback from EVERY aspect of the eso community and curate and present that feedback in a coherent way to the devs, of which they have direct lines of communication with.

you can be sure that they have given feedback on their preferred races, even though they aren't "race" reps.

alcast doesn't even list woodelf in any of his stam builds as a race choice lol, he'll list friggen NORD before he puts woodelf.

like you said, no current reps play woodelf. reps don't care about woodelf. Zos could completely remove hunters eye passive from woodelves and give them NOTHING in return and reps wouldn't bat an eye. they are too busy focusing on the ult gen of nord and the dps parses of orc and redguard to ever even spend one second vouching for woodelf.

so yes we are calling out the class reps.

they aren't representing our woodelf concerns properly and this is a problem

Ratzkifal · February 2019

TheMythicDawn wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Why are people talking about class reps when the class reps neither have a say in these changes nor an actual authority on the matter? We don't have race reps. Sure, I think it sucks that none of them address Bosmer, but I think the reason that is is because nobody was playing Bosmer before. Certainly not class reps which are expected to play the most optimal builds, and Bosmer has never been "the most optimal" for anything.

If you take this issue seriously, then keep posting and give constructive criticism.

reps are being brought up because its entirely relevant to the discussion. they are supposed to look at feedback from EVERY aspect of the eso community and curate and present that feedback in a coherent way to the devs, of which they have direct lines of communication with.

you can be sure that they have given feedback on their preferred races, even though they aren't "race" reps.

alcast doesn't even list woodelf in any of his stam builds as a race choice lol, he'll list friggen NORD before he puts woodelf.

like you said, no current reps play woodelf. reps don't care about woodelf. Zos could completely remove hunters eye passive from woodelves and give them NOTHING in return and reps wouldn't bat an eye. they are too busy focusing on the ult gen of nord and the dps parses of orc and redguard to ever even spend one second vouching for woodelf.

so yes we are calling out the class reps.

they aren't representing our woodelf concerns properly and this is a problem

@TheMythicDawn I don't get why you are saying that when the class reps did mention concern about the Bosmer stealth change. They are doing their job properly.

BlueRaven wrote: »

This is the quote;

"Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456997/class-reps-update-meeting-notes-jan-30-2019/p1

Besides, the class reps are really the wrong target here. ZOS is the ones making the changes and whether Alcast recommends Bosmer or not has nothing to do with the current PTS. They don't write the patch notes, they just discuss them and make suggestions.

MartiniDaniels · February 2019

TheMythicDawn wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Why are people talking about class reps when the class reps neither have a say in these changes nor an actual authority on the matter? We don't have race reps. Sure, I think it sucks that none of them address Bosmer, but I think the reason that is is because nobody was playing Bosmer before. Certainly not class reps which are expected to play the most optimal builds, and Bosmer has never been "the most optimal" for anything.

If you take this issue seriously, then keep posting and give constructive criticism.

reps are being brought up because its entirely relevant to the discussion. they are supposed to look at feedback from EVERY aspect of the eso community and curate and present that feedback in a coherent way to the devs, of which they have direct lines of communication with.

you can be sure that they have given feedback on their preferred races, even though they aren't "race" reps.

alcast doesn't even list woodelf in any of his stam builds as a race choice lol, he'll list friggen NORD before he puts woodelf.

like you said, no current reps play woodelf. reps don't care about woodelf. Zos could completely remove hunters eye passive from woodelves and give them NOTHING in return and reps wouldn't bat an eye. they are too busy focusing on the ult gen of nord and the dps parses of orc and redguard to ever even spend one second vouching for woodelf.

so yes we are calling out the class reps.

they aren't representing our woodelf concerns properly and this is a problem

Well, alcast actually had one ganker build where bosmer was a preferable race due to extra damage from stealth. But even that is gone now, bosmer is one of the races which are good for nothing, same as khajiits and argonians at 4.3.3.
And at this point I don't expect nothing good from 4.3.4.

And this removal of stealth is absurd, similar to how warhorn was nerfed to give warden "a signature class ability", phew. I mean nobody was suffering from stealth radius, people in pvp were suffering from increased damage from stealth, not from stealth radius.

Ratzkifal · February 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

And this removal of stealth is absurd, similar to how warhorn was nerfed to give warden "a signature class ability", phew. I mean nobody was suffering from stealth radius, people in pvp were suffering from increased damage from stealth, not from stealth radius.

@MartiniDaniels I find it even more absurd. At least making minor toughness exclusive to Wardens gave raids a reason to have Wardens with them at all and made alternatives to Warhorn slightly more appealing without hurting the damage. This change to Bosmer is just absurdity at it's finest.

ZOS: "Look, we made Bosmer have nice sustain!"
player: "Oh? Is it better than Redguard?"
Z: "No!"
P:"Why pick Bosmer then?"
Z:"They got an offensive boost too!"
P:"Is it on par with Orc?"
Z:"No and it ruins your sustain by draining your stamina!"
P: "..."
Z: "Oh and by the way, their only redeeming quality - stealth - was removed too.
P flips table

mxxo · February 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

TheMythicDawn wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Why are people talking about class reps when the class reps neither have a say in these changes nor an actual authority on the matter? We don't have race reps. Sure, I think it sucks that none of them address Bosmer, but I think the reason that is is because nobody was playing Bosmer before. Certainly not class reps which are expected to play the most optimal builds, and Bosmer has never been "the most optimal" for anything.

If you take this issue seriously, then keep posting and give constructive criticism.

reps are being brought up because its entirely relevant to the discussion. they are supposed to look at feedback from EVERY aspect of the eso community and curate and present that feedback in a coherent way to the devs, of which they have direct lines of communication with.

you can be sure that they have given feedback on their preferred races, even though they aren't "race" reps.

alcast doesn't even list woodelf in any of his stam builds as a race choice lol, he'll list friggen NORD before he puts woodelf.

like you said, no current reps play woodelf. reps don't care about woodelf. Zos could completely remove hunters eye passive from woodelves and give them NOTHING in return and reps wouldn't bat an eye. they are too busy focusing on the ult gen of nord and the dps parses of orc and redguard to ever even spend one second vouching for woodelf.

so yes we are calling out the class reps.

they aren't representing our woodelf concerns properly and this is a problem

Well, alcast actually had one ganker build where bosmer was a preferable race due to extra damage from stealth. But even that is gone now, bosmer is one of the races which are good for nothing, same as khajiits and argonians at 4.3.3.
And at this point I don't expect nothing good from 4.3.4.

And this removal of stealth is absurd, similar to how warhorn was nerfed to give warden "a signature class ability", phew. I mean nobody was suffering from stealth radius, people in pvp were suffering from increased damage from stealth, not from stealth radius.

Ye, i felt the same way. I love Bosmer and always when i created one, i asked myself: and what to with that char? They end up too easily as mere fun chars. Bosmer needs more love.

TheMythicDawn · February 2019

yes, thats about the only thing the reps have gotten ZOS to comment about, taking away woodelf stealth and saying they will offer it as gear in the future lol

what about the absolutely useless stealth DETECTION component that it was replaced with?

what about the penetration and movespeed bonus that are only active for a few seconds after clunky roll dodge?

why aren;t the reps bringing that part of the passive up to zos? and who else can we appeal to? zos is ignoring weeks of players voicing very strong feedback about this passive.

the reps should be telling zos how bad this passive is and offering reasonable suggestions like a smaller permanent pen bonus, reduced roll dodge cost... things like that

Ratzkifal · February 2019

TheMythicDawn wrote: »

why aren;t the reps bringing that part of the passive up to zos? and who else can we appeal to? zos is ignoring weeks of players voicing very strong feedback about this passive.

@TheMythicDawn

[...] community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs [...]

Dude, they talked about it. The concerns of the community about Bosmer losing stealth for different buffs nobody wants. You can call them incompetent if you want but it's not like they didn't bring it up at all. Also I suspect that ZOS is just being stubborn because they thought of something "super cool" that may not be cool in our eyes at all. Like more nerfs.

Kiralyn2000 · February 2019

I'm pretty sure the Bosmer stealth bonus is the only racial I've ever really noticed/thought about on the characters I've created - I pick races by appearance & theme, what seems to 'fit' the character I'm making. So, yeah, it's kind of disappointing to lose it on my PvE stealth character.

I'm not race-changing any of my characters, regardless of what happens to racials. Again, because the race is part of the characters' design, thematically.

BlueRaven · February 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

TheMythicDawn wrote: »

why aren;t the reps bringing that part of the passive up to zos? and who else can we appeal to? zos is ignoring weeks of players voicing very strong feedback about this passive.

@TheMythicDawn

[...] community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs [...]

Dude, they talked about it. The concerns of the community about Bosmer losing stealth for different buffs nobody wants. You can call them incompetent if you want but it's not like they didn't bring it up at all. Also I suspect that ZOS is just being stubborn because they thought of something "super cool" that may not be cool in our eyes at all. Like more nerfs.

There is bringing up the point and stressing the point. We don't really know what the conversation was like. And I think if the reps bring it up again (and again), that the community is really unhappy with the passive, maybe it will go somewhere. But right now it really feels like they are narrow focusing on a few races and are letting the others slide.

Hunters Eye feels really half-assed, like they were in a rush and they had to write something down. Then they said " good enough" and moved on to the "important" races.

Bladewizard · February 2019

I only know that i have been playing sneaky little wood elves since elder scrolls started, played one in 1, (only sneaky race in 1) Played one in 2, morrowind, oblivion, and still have a level 73 i play now and again in skyrim. Taking stealth from wood elves makes no sense at all, and if the decision to do so goes live it will cost zos $400 a year from me, at the least. I will continue to play this game, I have spent too much money not to, but I will not spend another dime on it.
I have built sneaky dark elves trying to make a drizt and without the racial passive sneaking is no fun. I tried twice. Both were deleted. Just not the same when you do your thieves guild and dark brotherhood dailies. I have a sneaky cat, love him, but the second one got turned into a wood elf, could not get used to the tail. The last thing I want to do is make them all cats to keep playing sneaky.
Stealth is obviously not a problem in pvp or they would not be giving the cats an improved version of it, so why take it from the only other race that has it. Limit two full dlcs to nothing but cats... why?
There are entire npc conversations in this game, hostile npcs with scripted, voice acted dialog, that can only be heard while sneaking around.
Stealth is a part of this game and taking it away from wood elves like this feels like zos telling everyone that plays them to take a hike, we are not wanted in thier game anymore. I am being dramatic I know but if everyone would imagine thier favorite race having the reason they love to play it removed from said race, they might understand what this feels like to those of us who love sneaky little wood elves.
Just my 2 cents.

BlueRaven · February 2019

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the Bosmer stealth bonus is the only racial I've ever really noticed/thought about on the characters I've created - I pick races by appearance & theme, what seems to 'fit' the character I'm making. So, yeah, it's kind of disappointing to lose it on my PvE stealth character.

I'm not race-changing any of my characters, regardless of what happens to racials. Again, because the race is part of the characters' design, thematically.

That is my thoughts on almost all of my races. The only exception I might do is with my Nord Warden healer (Nords like cold, wardens have frost spells, a nord frost caster! Brilliant!), the sustain is just annoying and I might as well switch to breton... Maybe.

Ratzkifal · February 2019

@BlueRaven

BlueRaven wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the Bosmer stealth bonus is the only racial I've ever really noticed/thought about on the characters I've created - I pick races by appearance & theme, what seems to 'fit' the character I'm making. So, yeah, it's kind of disappointing to lose it on my PvE stealth character.

I'm not race-changing any of my characters, regardless of what happens to racials. Again, because the race is part of the characters' design, thematically.

That is my thoughts on almost all of my races. The only exception I might do is with my Nord Warden healer (Nords like cold, wardens have frost spells, a nord frost caster! Brilliant!), the sustain is just annoying and I might as well switch to breton... Maybe.

You could try running Alteration Mastery on your Nord Warden before you switch. The 6% cost reduction helps with your sustain but also applies to your ultimate, so your group will appreciate the higher number of warhorns you can provide.

Ri_Khan · February 2019

I'd just like to add if it hasn't been already... from a lore perspective, wood elves being sneaky to damn near invisible in their natural habitat isn't something that started with Elder Scrolls. It's been one of their defining characteristics in every single fantasy setting and mythology they've been a part of. Ever.

This change makes no sense.

Left4Daud · February 2019

I know right? ZOS is like “we want races to be different from each other so wood elf and Khajiit can’t share a stealth bonus”... meanwhile multiple races are sharing max stat, damage, and sustain bonuses.

But oh no! Let’s forbid two races share a simple stealth bonus.

What an awful joke.

Ratzkifal · February 2019

Well, tomorrow we'll get new patch notes. Let's keep hoping hahahahaha...haha... ha...

Alucardmike · February 2019

I am training for my new life in game...

https://xboxclips.com/Alucardmike/f6c86321-ff73-47d3-b710-ab9906258a0f

The last part is a little bit buggy but works after a few seconds.

MartiniDaniels · February 2019

Alucardmike wrote: »

I am training for my new life in game...

https://xboxclips.com/Alucardmike/f6c86321-ff73-47d3-b710-ab9906258a0f

The last part is a little bit buggy but works after a few seconds.

Ahaha, that's amazing.

Ratzkifal · February 2019

Alucardmike wrote: »

I am training for my new life in game...

https://xboxclips.com/Alucardmike/f6c86321-ff73-47d3-b710-ab9906258a0f

The last part is a little bit buggy but works after a few seconds.

Lol! I dressed my Bosmer in rags (slave outfit style) and beg for money sometimes but nobody actually ever gave me something. Maybe after the patch goes live my 810CP won't fool anyone anymore as the sight of a Bosmer alone is pitiful enough to donate?

BlueRaven · February 2019

(Sorry, I had to make these.)