Faulgor wrote: »

So what's the harm in asking for both - group dungeons that can be completed by solo questers, and overland content that is engaging for more advanced players? Because as it is, advanced solo players can't meaningfully enjoy 3/3 of what they're paying for - dungeons and trials are group content, and everything else is too easy.

Probably because it "sends the wrong message?"

Tell you what, open a thread asking ZOS for overland content that's more engaging and you'll probably have a bunch of us solo questers supporting you. It's not a zero-sum game. So sure, ask for both. But holding a solo/story mode hostage to what you think advanced solo players want isn't going to get you more engaging content. Especially if advanced solo players can't agree on what we find engaging. Because I'm engaged by good music, quality voice acting, well-done visuals, and an immersive story.

Want it to be more difficult? I do too. I'd like puzzles that were actually puzzling, a crafting system that required some degree of craft, dialogue choices that were consequential, a justice system that effected your reputation, etc. But I'm just guessing that's not quite what you had in mind.

If you say that's unreasonably hard ("only available to elites") you're literally asking for them to be easier. Which is fine, I just don't understand why you would claim otherwise?

Are there players of different skill levels? Absolutely. There are some amazing players out there. But framing it as solo questers vs. advanced players isn't just insulting and wrong, it's entirely beside the point because it's not about difficulty. It's about play style.

Example: Like you, I can solo plenty of dungeons, but you know how some people click through the dialogue because they find it boring and tedious? That's pretty much how I think of trash mobs: tedious click fests. And most boss fights are just tedious click fests with added annoying mechanics that usually go on too long and add precious little to the story.

Asking for a solo/story mode to be added isn't asking for any current mode to be removed. It shouldn't effect anyone who likes slaughtering their way through dungeons.

Because in the end it's about access to story. Even if Wrathstone is "the prologue to the prologue," as was pointed out in another thread, putting story into dungeons still seems to negate the idea of a Season of the Dragon for a significant chunk of the player base who revel in the story. And if it is inconsequential in Q1, what about Q3? What story elements are we going to miss then?

As a filthy casual scrub turnip who mostly plays solo, I would support a solo story mode so I could finally enjoy dungeons. As it is, I've only done a handful of base game dungeons on normal, and I've never done a DLC dungeon. And once I finish a dungeon to get the achievement and the trophy, I'm done with it. Never done any dungeon more than once.

I stopped buying dungeon DLCs a long time ago. I currently subscribe to ESO+ and I buy the new chapters, and I feel that's enough. With all the talk of the Elsweyr having significant story elements gated in dungeons, I may skip this chapter entirely.

And in response to those who flippantly say "Go play Skyrim," if all of us casual solo players really quit ESO to go play Skyrim, ESO would be dead in a very short time. ZOS needs our money, too!

As much as I love the new dungeons, both of them are glorified fetch quests that can be considered their own independent stories. The wrathstone tablet is the only relevant connection to the main story. You can play the prologue in a way that makes it seem like you were not involved in the acquisition of the stones. So if you do not like dungeons you will not be missing out on any important plot points for the chapter.

Artim_X wrote: »

As much as I love the new dungeons, both of them are glorified fetch quests that can be considered their own independent stories. The wrathstone tablet is the only relevant connection to the main story. You can play the prologue in a way that makes it seem like you were not involved in the acquisition of the stones. So if you do not like dungeons you will not be missing out on any important plot points for the chapter.

Which is what I suspected and why I stated that this whole thing was probably more of a marketing screw up than it was anything else.

Artim_X wrote: »

As much as I love the new dungeons, both of them are glorified fetch quests that can be considered their own independent stories. The wrathstone tablet is the only relevant connection to the main story. You can play the prologue in a way that makes it seem like you were not involved in the acquisition of the stones. So if you do not like dungeons you will not be missing out on any important plot points for the chapter.

Ah...okay...

"So if you do not like dungeons you will not be missing out on any important plot points for the chapter..."

"The wrathstone tablet is the only relevant connection to the main story."

[Scratches head]

The Tablet is relevant to the main story... Okay....

The Tablet is in a dungeon that can only be done in a Group....okay...

So if someone does not like to group ....they will NOT miss out on the story of getting the tablet which is...quote "relevant" and.... miss out on.... quote "any important plot points" to the main story?

[Scratches ear]

sigh...this kind of logic is way beyond me... sigh

Good luck to us all

P.S.

"As much as I love the new dungeons, both of them are glorified fetch quests that can be considered their own independent stories.."

Okay... Why than having the tablet which is "the only relevant connection to the main story" being locked behind a "glorified fetch quest" that can only be done in a group?

If these Dungeons are truly independent stories than the Tablet should not be in these Dungeons....me thinks.

Chirru wrote: »

Artim_X wrote: »

As much as I love the new dungeons, both of them are glorified fetch quests that can be considered their own independent stories. The wrathstone tablet is the only relevant connection to the main story. You can play the prologue in a way that makes it seem like you were not involved in the acquisition of the stones. So if you do not like dungeons you will not be missing out on any important plot points for the chapter.

Ah...okay...

"So if you do not like dungeons you will not be missing out on any important plot points for the chapter..."

"The wrathstone tablet is the only relevant connection to the main story."

[Scratches head]

The Tablet is relevant to the main story... Okay....

The Tablet is in a dungeon that can only be done in a Group....okay...

So if someone does not like to group ....they will NOT miss out on the story of getting the tablet which is...quote "relevant" and.... miss out on.... quote "any important plot points" to the main story?

[Scratches ear]

sigh...this kind of logic is way beyond me... sigh

Good luck to us all

P.S.

"As much as I love the new dungeons, both of them are glorified fetch quests that can be considered their own independent stories.."

Okay... Why than having the tablet which is "the only relevant connection to the main story" being locked behind a "glorified fetch quest" that can only be done in a group?

If these Dungeons are truly independent stories than the Tablet should not be in these Dungeons....me thinks.

I am simply conveying my experience with the dungeons in relation to the primary story that players want to experience. If Abnur was present in the dungeons and talked about stuff that's going to happen in the chapter then I'd be telling you that the dungeons are very significant and it is unfortunate that they weren't designed to be like the vanilla dungeons. In the prologue (you can do it without even stepping foot in the dungeons) you don't have to interact with a particular NPC at the start. The implication of not talking to her is that someone else helped her get the tablets for Abnur. Like I said the dungeons are a fetch quest nothing more nothing less. The interesting bits are about the dungeons themselves and not the item in question. When I completed the dungeons I made sure to read all the dialogue and admire everything of note, since I actually like all the content in the game. The story of getting the tablet is only relevant if you truly wish to be a part of the fetching aspect of the story. Either way Abnur paid someone very well for the tablet, but it doesn't have to be you. The primary story starts with the prologue itself, since this is where you learn about the tablet and about future plot points.

No, the tablets are fine where they are. What's not fine is someone making a mountain out of a molehill. I like running dungeons and when someone is doing a quest I make sure to slow down so that they can enjoy the story. Sometimes it's obvious, but when it's not all one has to do is mention that they are doing the quest in chat. Dungeon runners can be quite considerate if you give them a chance. Would I be upset if there was a solo dungeon mode? No, hell no! I would primarily do it solo for the story the first time around and then with groups for the additional challenge, but such a mode does not exist and I'm not saying it shouldn't exist. All I'm saying is that you are not missing out on much in relation to the chapter (this is a matter of fact, since no chapter plot points are present in the dungeons) and some of the complaints I've been seeing pn the forums are a bit excessive.

Artim_X wrote: »

Chirru wrote: »

"The story of getting the tablet is only relevant if you truly wish to be a part of the fetching aspect of the story."

True...true...

I wish to be a part of the relevant story of getting the two parts of Tablet

I know others wish to be a part of the relevant story of getting the Tablet

And yet the selfsame relevant story of getting the parts of the Tablet are locked behind two 4 player Dungeons, which (from the indication of what I can discern on this forum) a substantial part of the Players (for various reasons) does not appreciate at all.

Since my Char went solo through the Main Plot...and went face to face with Baal... why so suddenly hide plot items in four player dungeons? What minds spawned that sort of mischief....and what minds defend it?

DId you know that there are important plot points for the main story in the Imperial City DLC. Not only in the dungeons, but also in the city itself. I'm sure many players have yet to complete that content. What about Craglorn? The overland story can be done solo, but IMO to truly complete the story one must complete all the trials. The game is full of content. Some are relevant to other pieces of content in varying degrees and some stand on their own.

The only thing stopping you from completing these dungeons seems to be your inability to queue up for them. If you really want to be a part of the fetch quest then become a DPS, a healer, or a tank. No one is forcing you to do it on vet. If you put in a bit of effort I'm sure you'll be able to clear them at a desired pace and you might actually end up enjoying the experience.

So "find friends", "find a guild", and "learn to play."

OP laid out why those aren't good answers and others have added even more. And I think what you're hitting at is why people have asked to make Cyrodiil PVE. Why so many dislike Craglorn. Precisely because so much of the content in the game, a game built upon a foundation of rich storytelling, is inaccessible to casual players, players who don't want to group up, players who can't group up, players who just want to make pretty pictures, etc.

We're being sold a year-long story. What you're saying is that the first part of it isn't really significant. Will ZOS do the same for the Q3 Dungeon DLC, make up some insignificant and uncessary part of the story that we should be happy someone else completed for us? You can maybe do that in the prologue to the prologue, but it doesn't seem nearly as good an idea to do that in the middle of rising tension.

Season of the Dragon is being sold as a "massive, interconnected story." What you're suggesting is that it's not interconnected. That's a shame. If nothing changes, they'll have to do the same for Q3 that they're doing with Wrathstone. But, ZOS could make the upcoming Q3 Dungeon DLC truly interconnected if they could be confidant that people would play through the content— a solo/story mode is one possible way to do just that.

I’m two months into playing this game and have loved every minute of it. Recently I hit cp160 and decided to try and work on a build and do some dungeons and group content. Now at the moment i’m not good enough to do some things in groups but that’s okay! I’m willing to learn. I love the group experience and hope that one day I can participate in all of it!

The dungeons, in particular, are really interesting for me, with the cool bosses and all their mechanics. The one thing I still don’t know about in any of the dungeons i’ve been in, though, is the story. I get some vague hints here and there but if I want to keep up with a group I can’t read it all.

And just going and finding a group in my guilds to go slowly would honestly stress me out a lot - I worry a ton that I’m wasting others’ time if i’m not keeping up with them, even if they’re very kind and say they’re willing to wait for me. Because of that, I know none of the stories in these places.

In short, a solo dungeon mode is a brilliant idea and one I absolutely support. I agree with what others have said - leisurely quest and skill point are reward enough for me for these potential solo ones, as I’m looking forward to running dungeons for gear and the like once I get a bit stronger!

Disclaimer: I could care less if a solo mode was included. Personally, I think it should only reward gold and experience, and should only drop the regular trash green and blues. I.E., no set gear, and not even a skill point or skyshard (see below).

That said, I think the reason you won't see a solo mode is evident throughout how the game is designed.

Whether an individual player likes it or not, a frequent design choice is to get players to have to sample outside their comfort zone. Whether it be PVP, PVE, grouping, fishing, housing ... if you want EVERYTHING, you have to play more than just your niche.

I do not think a solo dungeon mode should award a skyshard or skill point simply because there are a number of them that require sampling outside your niche. As the best example: there are skyshards that can only be accessed in PVP whilst the enemy faction's gates are open.

Finally, I think people are over exaggerating the impact upon them of this year's arch. ZOS has made it clear there is no Wrathstone story in the DLC dungeons. Therefore, frankly, players who don't do dungeons for their own story already do not miss out on not doing the Wrathstone DLC's individual stories. E.g., I am pretty sure they are comfortable knowing the Fighter Guild's storyline without having experienced what happened to the expedition in Spindleclutch.

And, yes, my point of view affects me too. As an example, I wouldn't fish in real life, let alone in a video game. But, if for some reason, I wanted those achievements, or if some thing came of it, I'd either have to fish or pass. And I am happy to accept that.

Artim_X wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Artim_X wrote: »

You don't need friends or a guild. I run normal dungeons with randoms all the time via the dungeon finder. I wouldn't say l2p, but rather learn a bit about the roles that you can queue for, you don't need trial sets and a crazy high parse for normal mode. If ZOS one day adds a solo story mode for dungeons that'd be cool as I said before I would use it myself, but for now that isn't an option. Giving other players a chance is always an option.

Pugging DLC dungeons is just an exercise in frustration. Even when/if someone knows the mechanics they tend to be uncommunicative.

I'm sorry your experience has been negative, but I'm pretty sure you've never pugged with me. If it's clear the team does not know the mechanics I explain it as briefly as possible. Ex: "when Dranos becomes red he takes no damage till all his shades are dead and if he locks someone down interrupt the shades to save them." Sometimes when I know the dungeon has newbies I'll say "one sec" before a mechanic heavy fight starts so that I can explain the mechanics. There are other players like me who are willing to help others get better and have comfortable runs.

here is the thing and something you all keep missing.

you

and

players

like

you

can compensate

for the rest of the group

because its not just about mechanics.

when you have a group where at least one person does high damage and can explain mechanics? sure it goes smoothly. you still rarely get to actualy enjoy the story in a pug, but at least you get to finish a dungeon.

but when you have a group of 4 and ALL of you are not high performers? YES its a frustrating experience. you are doing fine, becasue YOU are the one compensating and that's nice and all, but that doesn't guarantee (not even close) that those of us who cannot compensate for the rest of the group will always, or even often get someone like you in our normal dungeons.

and herein lays part of the problem.

but as far as skill point. again. and I will state it again and again. unless they rework it so that you do not depend on luck in that you either get another person who also needs to do the quest, or you luck out and get someone considerate enough not to leave the group until you finished turning in your quest? there should be a skill point in solo version. however, again, its fine if its not part of it AS LONG AS GETTING IT WHILE IN A PUG GROUP IS FIXED. whether its by attaching it to dungeon completion achievement, or extending the 30 second kick timer and making sure that quest progresses even if you don't do all the out of the way steps that pug groups happily run past, while also separating it from solo story , so you can do both the story in solo mode, and group mode skill point version - SOME sort of fix is necessary.

Linaleah wrote: »

Artim_X wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Artim_X wrote: »

You don't need friends or a guild. I run normal dungeons with randoms all the time via the dungeon finder. I wouldn't say l2p, but rather learn a bit about the roles that you can queue for, you don't need trial sets and a crazy high parse for normal mode. If ZOS one day adds a solo story mode for dungeons that'd be cool as I said before I would use it myself, but for now that isn't an option. Giving other players a chance is always an option.

Pugging DLC dungeons is just an exercise in frustration. Even when/if someone knows the mechanics they tend to be uncommunicative.

I'm sorry your experience has been negative, but I'm pretty sure you've never pugged with me. If it's clear the team does not know the mechanics I explain it as briefly as possible. Ex: "when Dranos becomes red he takes no damage till all his shades are dead and if he locks someone down interrupt the shades to save them." Sometimes when I know the dungeon has newbies I'll say "one sec" before a mechanic heavy fight starts so that I can explain the mechanics. There are other players like me who are willing to help others get better and have comfortable runs.

here is the thing and something you all keep missing.

you

and

players

like

you

can compensate

for the rest of the group

because its not just about mechanics.

when you have a group where at least one person does high damage and can explain mechanics? sure it goes smoothly. you still rarely get to actualy enjoy the story in a pug, but at least you get to finish a dungeon.

but when you have a group of 4 and ALL of you are not high performers? YES its a frustrating experience. you are doing fine, becasue YOU are the one compensating and that's nice and all, but that doesn't guarantee (not even close) that those of us who cannot compensate for the rest of the group will always, or even often get someone like you in our normal dungeons.

and herein lays part of the problem.

but as far as skill point. again. and I will state it again and again. unless they rework it so that you do not depend on luck in that you either get another person who also needs to do the quest, or you luck out and get someone considerate enough not to leave the group until you finished turning in your quest? there should be a skill point in solo version. however, again, its fine if its not part of it AS LONG AS GETTING IT WHILE IN A PUG GROUP IS FIXED. whether its by attaching it to dungeon completion achievement, or extending the 30 second kick timer and making sure that quest progresses even if you don't do all the out of the way steps that pug groups happily run past, while also separating it from solo story , so you can do both the story in solo mode, and group mode skill point version - SOME sort of fix is necessary.

When I play a healer I do my lowest damage output and I can keep everyone alive while they are the stars of the show. The damage may be low, but for the most part no one dies and the run is still smooth. Also they can enjoy the story even if I run as a damage dealer cause I can simply slow my roll, which is something I do often.

I do understand your point of having bad luck where you have no one in the group that can keep the group afloat. That's why I like running random normals cause no matter what even if I have to switch roles on the spot I can help get everyone through at their desired pace. If someone is clearly doing the quest I wait until they're finished. If you mention it in chat someone is likely to volunteer to wait afterwards. Although I do agree that you shouldn't be removed from the dungeon till you leave manually. My point is the group finder isn't just filled with jerks and inconsiderate speed demons.

Mr_Walker wrote: »

One more point in relation to the above... I was in a group that tried nMHK. We couldn't get past the first boss. We moved to nICP, and they absolutely blitzed it. I mean steamrolled it. OK, it;s the easiest of the DLC dungeons, but these guys carved it apart like the bosses were trash mobs. Is there a problem in the new DLC dungeons? Are they over the top for even an above average pug group?

Who knows. A one-off story is a one-off incident.

They did ICP enough to be comfortable?

Weren't paying attention in MHK? The first boss has a mechanic that if ignored will wipe the group.

Mr_Walker wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

One more point in relation to the above... I was in a group that tried nMHK. We couldn't get past the first boss. We moved to nICP, and they absolutely blitzed it. I mean steamrolled it. OK, it;s the easiest of the DLC dungeons, but these guys carved it apart like the bosses were trash mobs. Is there a problem in the new DLC dungeons? Are they over the top for even an above average pug group?

Who knows. A one-off story is a one-off incident.

They did ICP enough to be comfortable?

Weren't paying attention in MHK? The first boss has a mechanic that if ignored will wipe the group.

It wiped the group 10 times, and when you're laying down enough damage to cheerfully faceroll ICP, you'd expect some goodness in MHK, right? At the end of the day the core is tank tanks, healer heals, and deeps deep. I don't care anymore. I've given up on the DLC dungeons. I've tried pugging half of them, and all I ever got was frustration with zero finishes (apart from icp and wgt). I play these games for fun, not aggravation. If I want that I deal with the numptys at work.

I'd be happy with baby mode, where I just to run around poking stuff and get the story.

That's the point, though. The newer DLCs cannot be brute-forced. There is a mechanic, a heavy to be dodged IIRC, that if not, will set a wipe in motion.

So that's why the group failed: it didn't read the cues and perform the mechanic.

EDIT to add: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/425002/moon-hunter-keep-walkthrough-and-guide-spoilers/p1