Premade groups are ruining battlegrounds...

heavier · January 2019

jcm2606 wrote: »

Richard_scottub17_ESO wrote: »

So I dont think so cause I have jumped in with all four randoms and over voice chat we figured out what to do and how to run and organized ourselves and we won against at least one premade group maybe two. Bugs is great for premade groups it's what we all wanted I never run with a big group in cyrodill and got spanked for it made me want to give up all together. In conclusion bgs is meant for premade groups

No voice chat on PC.

P-PC master-gamers r-right g-guys

CatchMeTrolling · January 2019

I think during the event premades have become a bit more toxic. Like every game there’s one.

heavier · January 2019

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I think during the event premades have become a bit more toxic. Like every game there’s one.

I swear they don't even random queue, they select deathmatch from the menu
the other gamemodes may not be balanced but at least they offer variety

Get_Packed · January 2019

Yes

Leogon wrote: »

It doesn't matter how good you are when you're queuing as a solo player because you can end up facing a premade group of 4 good players who've been playing together for a while and using discord to ask for heals, etc. Also, when you're not queuing as a premade group of 4, you sometimes end up with only 2 other players on your team instead of 3.

Speak for yourself, i que solo and beat premades all the time.

Drachenfier wrote: »

Premades that know they are queuing against pugs are bottom feeders, imo. Can't handle competition, and look for easy wins, then pat each other on the back for being so "awesome".

What's funny is that when Premades are only allowed to queue against Premades, they suddenly all disappear. Happens in every game that institutes a group vs group queue for pvp.

If you want to "group with friends" - go to Cyrodiil. Pugstomping is for carebears.

If you are in a premade with other good players your MMR will be high so that you will either match against other premades or groups of players with high MMR. I que solo, duo, trio and premade all the time, we typically are matched against other skilled premades, more often then not we will fight against the same premades in consecutive battles. Rarely do we get matched against of low skill solo ques. One observation that I have made that can cause high mmr premades to match against lower mmr teams is when one member of the group is on new character. It seems like the mmr matches the team against lower mmr opponents, maybe it selects the person with lowest mmr when match making?

Another observation that I have made is When small scalers complain about cyrodiil people say “go do bg’s”. So the small scaler goes and does bg’s and is told “go to cyrodiil if you want to group with a few buddies”. So whats it gonna be?

I bet most of these people have no problem zerging 5 players in cyrodiil with a 20 man zerg but complain in the forums when they get raked by an equal numbers team in a bg. Use your whoopins as motivation like I did to someday beat those premades with a pug group.

WTF I SWEAR I CLICKED NO ON THE POLL! Results are skewed!

ecru · January 2019

Yes

I don't remember if I posted in this thread or not but the main issue with premades is that the maximum size of a premade group is also the same size as a full team in BGs. Putting an entire team of organized players in voice against teams of disorganized players who cannot communicate very well is going to be inherently unfair, regardless of the matchmaking system in place.

Obviously this stems from the fact that teams only consist of four players, which leads us (again, like with almost every issue in BGs) to the three team system being the cause of this problem in the first place. If BGs were 8v8, premades could still be limited to a group of 4, but they wouldn't consist of an entire team and if matchmaking is working properly, their teammates won't be very good. You would never have a situation where an entire team is a premade going up against a team of pugs, and most of the balance issues surrounding premades dominating matches would disappear.

Yes, I know that the other two teams can work together to kill the premade, but they won't, because they can't communicate like the premade can. The premade consisting of better, more organized players with better communication will allow them to engage and disengage whenever they want, meaning that the team who is most likely use another team to gain a numbers advantage is the premade.

What does this all mean? ZOS probably will not remake BGs as two teams like every other game, so the only solution to the problem of premades is to force premades into their own queue, but this solution shafts players who aren't organized/who just want to play with their friends.

No matter what happens, BGs with three teams that allow a full team to queue as a premade will always, always suck for pugs. Push to change BGs to two teams like every other game and we might see some progress in this area, or until then maybe wait for the new Imperial City to be released to get your small-scale pvp fix, as that's what I'm doing.

Loves_guars · January 2019

Yes

Damn, during the event I decided to play some battlegrounds, and the first ones I got were balanced and actually fun. Then the premades showed up and remembered why I don't play them. It's a pity, there was potential for fun here.

Moonsorrow · January 2019

@Seraphayel

I think you should adapt and quit complaining about premades. All balanced and working as intended.

That is what you are saying to everyone about the racial passive changes right now. So why are you picking things that people are allowed to "complain" and here you are.. complaining. Maybe just adapt eh?

max_only · January 2019

Yes

Yes and anyone who says otherwise likes kicking sand in infants faces.

j.greenmanb16_ESO · January 2019

max_only wrote: »

Yes and anyone who says otherwise likes kicking sand in infants faces.

And I would suppose that the people who are not organized enough and play only with random groups are the infants (believe me, I am one of them!)

Battlegrounds are indeed fun, even against pre-made groups because it creates a challenge, and drives your to better yourself as a player.

If you are a good player with a good setup, you on random can basically carry the whole team in a random match.

And there is the luck factor with a random BG. It isn't always going to be a fair fight, even if you eliminate premade groups simply because sometimes a bunch of really good players with great gear will all get grouped together. Sometimes, a group of unskilled players just starting on building their gear in BG's will all get grouped together. At its best, its a nice mix, but again, its random.

I have been on teams accused of being premade when it was simply just a random group put together. I have been against teams I could have sworn were premade, but one simply can not know because random just be like that!

Do you want to win BG's damn near everytime? Get a good crew together
Do want to win by chance, at the whim of the random group that was made for you? Keep going random.

max_only · January 2019

Yes

I don’t want to win every time. I’m used to a matchmaking system that shuffles teams mid-campaign when a genuine imbalance is detected.

It’s a lot more fun for me to kill my friends than for my gang to steamroll everything. Steamrolling is boring boring boring. Battlegrounds is only fun when all three teams are contenders. I say GG even if I lose when I can see we really tried and had a good chance.

Cathexis · January 2019

Yes

Definitely prefer pure pug over premade, this is the same issue that has slowly eroded cyrodiil. It has been boring to give groups the mathematical and tactical leg up over PvP in cyrodiil systematically time and time again, and is the exact same in battlegrounds.

The difference is, battlegrounds are easily made to accomodate separating pugs and premades. I think if they are going to resign themselves to keeping this abomination of balance in cyrodiil, they should at least accomodate for pug players in battlegrounds.

EDIT; I mean think about it - let's say you give the option of solo vs team, I guarantee you 95% of solo players will pick solo only, because the current system is really not fair to those players; a hypercoordinated team will predictably almost always beat out non-coordinated teams. So your only option as a solo is stick it out to sabotage the opposing team you like less of the two, or take a deserter penalty.

hesobad · January 2019

Yes

I spoke to someone after a BG match and asked him if he was in a pre made and he said yes, he has a full 4 man pre made in discord playing BGs. I can't blame him, he's having fun with his friends playing a video game. BUT my team was ALL solo ques, how are we supposed to compete? ZOS MAKE BGS FUN TO PLAY!!

THIS NEEDS TO BE 2V2, 3V3, OR 4V4 GAME MODES FOR PRE MADES! A PRE MADE GROUP SHOULD NOT BE IN THE SAME QUE SYSTEM AS SOLO QUES! PLAY YOUR OWN GAME AND SEE FOR YOURSELF WHY THIS SYSTEM IS AGGRIVATING TO YOUR PLAYER BASE WHO PAYS YOUR BILLS!!!!

hesobad · January 2019

Yes

Joy_Division wrote: »

I wonder how many people think 4 good players are "premades".

As much as people like to think ESO caters to "noobs," the combat is not forgiving at all. The better and more experienced player almost always wins.

What happens when a pre made of Mag templar, Ice Warden, Stam warden and Stam sorc, 2 of which run Dawn breaker, 1 Perma Frost with the Ice Warden spamming Time Stop, Templar guarding and popping Lights Champion like its a free ability all in comms. What Happens when they go against PUGs? Is that a Learn to play thing as you say when youre the solo quer going against them? They all drop ults at the same exact time than spam Spin to Win like its the only ability on their bar. Sounds like a fun gaming experience, no?

OrdoHermetica · January 2019

Get_Packed wrote: »

If you are in a premade with other good players your MMR will be high so that you will either match against other premades or groups of players with high MMR. I que solo, duo, trio and premade all the time, we typically are matched against other skilled premades, more often then not we will fight against the same premades in consecutive battles. Rarely do we get matched against of low skill solo ques. One observation that I have made that can cause high mmr premades to match against lower mmr teams is when one member of the group is on new character. It seems like the mmr matches the team against lower mmr opponents, maybe it selects the person with lowest mmr when match making?

WTF I SWEAR I CLICKED NO ON THE POLL! Results are skewed!

I've actually noticed the opposite, at least in 3- or 4-person premades. Two of my characters have pretty high MMRs, and if I take them into matches with guildies who are just trying out BGs for the first time, it's pretty much guaranteed to be a bad time for us. Conversely, if I'm getting a new BG toon going and go with those same people, we match against much lower MMR characters and I end up feeling bad when I literally single-handedly slaughter an entire team by myself. Repeatedly. (Seriously, this happened a couple nights ago. I got 22 kills, 16 of which came from one team. I felt terrible about it, and they probably felt even worse.)

I kinda feel like MMR should be tied to account, not character. While that does mean learning the ropes on a new character will be a bit difficult, I do think it might be a bit more balanced overall. And assuming the population is up for it, it'd be great if it tried to get a mix of MMRs that are roughly equivalent between each team... maybe average it out?

Cathexis · January 2019

Yes

hesobad wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I wonder how many people think 4 good players are "premades".

As much as people like to think ESO caters to "noobs," the combat is not forgiving at all. The better and more experienced player almost always wins.

What happens when a pre made of Mag templar, Ice Warden, Stam warden and Stam sorc, 2 of which run Dawn breaker, 1 Perma Frost with the Ice Warden spamming Time Stop, Templar guarding and popping Lights Champion like its a free ability all in comms. What Happens when they go against PUGs? Is that a Learn to play thing as you say when youre the solo quer going against them? They all drop ults at the same exact time than spam Spin to Win like its the only ability on their bar. Sounds like a fun gaming experience, no?

^^ IMO I agree its dumb. There is nothing wrong with team play, but just because you play on a team shouldn't entitle you to have a decisive mathematical advantage that is absolute, and this is why ungrouped players should be able to queue separately.

Get_Packed · January 2019

Yes

Small scaler: Cries about cyrodiil
Zergling: GO DO BGS!
Small scaler: goes and does bg’s.
Zergling without a zerg: PREMADES SHOULDNT BE A THING!
Small scaler: but you said go to....

StarOfElyon · January 2019

Yes

I sure do enjoy giving premades a hard time though. When they start focusing me I can tell they're getting frustrated at the solos putting up a fight. Must make them feel like a weaker squad.

Anethum · January 2019

Yes

Get_Packed wrote: »

Small scaler: Cries about cyrodiil
Zergling: GO DO BGS!
Small scaler: goes and does bg’s.
Zergling without a zerg: PREMADES SHOULDNT BE A THING!
Small scaler: but you said go to....

u've forgot solo players here

Anethum · January 2019

Yes

4 players with previously prepared voice-coordinated teamfunctions
vs
4 or often 3 randoms, who may be strong, but without any support guys in team...this is just ridiculous.

there is no balance and can't be until random ones can't choose if they wan't or not to play without premade ones there.
no reason to play battlegrounds until this will be implemented - no challenge, no competition, to go solo there it's like to go with knifes against guys with rifles and transmitters.
Also what should feel healthy person equipped with gun vs opponent with knife only.
The goal here is interesting fight and challenge, not the win itself

@ZOS_Wrobel mmr only system dosn't provide expected balance. It should be also choice for players to fight or not vs organized groups in battlegrounds. Quality of life..

KhajiitFelix · January 2019

Yes

Horse but hole

max_only · January 2019

Yes

Anethum wrote: »

4 players with previously prepared voice-coordinated teamfunctions
vs
4 or often 3 randoms, who may be strong, but without any support guys in team...this is just ridiculous.

there is no balance and can't be until random ones can't choose if they wan't or not to play without premade ones there.
no reason to play battlegrounds until this will be implemented - no challenge, no competition, to go solo there it's like to go with knifes against guys with rifles and transmitters.
Also what should feel healthy person equipped with gun vs opponent with knife only.
The goal here is interesting fight and challenge, not the win itself

@ZOS_Wrobel mmr only system dosn't provide expected balance. It should be also choice for players to fight or not vs organized groups in battlegrounds. Quality of life..

Alas Wrobel doesn’t work here anymore

IzzyStardust · January 2019

No

I realllly do not agree with the idea that we should limit 4 players from grouping up and playing just because they’re better or more experienced.

I’m not on the leaderboards as I never go often enough on any given week but I am Ava 21; mostly from BG so I’m not talking out my backside, either.

Sometimes you’re just going to get owned. Too bad, try again.

It sucks sometimes to lose and lose and lose because you get teamed up with whomever; but sometimes - you win and that feels amazing!

People need to just get a bit thicker skin and stop worrying about whether it’s a premade, what they’re using or wearing or whatever and just go fight.

People hanging slack spamming chat about what killed them or because someone is using a bow, or wings or whatever - just get in.

You’ll have way more fun that way - for dk wings just get a lightning staff and heavy attack right in their face and just pressure them down and 2 shot em.

For bow guys; that’s hard (I am now and have always been a 1 shield only, no resto, non pet sorc)- I either stay away, and let them focus someone else, use the defensive thingy that stuns when they attack and when I see where they are, I stealth over and just jack them up - close and personal (even though I fight ranged usually). Make sure you have enough crit resist and resistance (1500 crit resist/impen min - and I’m on my phone - so idk exactly how much physical/spell resist I have but under and over 20k ish - respectively) and be willing to swap weapons to lightning staff, ice, use poisons if you have werewolves, have spare weapons with prismatics, etc. I find the best thing to do is to always keep up pressure.

It’s scary at first because you want to hang back if you’re a staff user - but I find getting right in other players’ faces and just keep coming is best.

Sometimes I die a LOT but I kill and assist a lot more.

I used to have far more deaths than kills; but it really does get better once you learn to use the right counterplay; and are willing to bring multiple weapons and change them depending...

ecru · January 2019

Yes

max_only wrote: »

Anethum wrote: »

4 players with previously prepared voice-coordinated teamfunctions
vs
4 or often 3 randoms, who may be strong, but without any support guys in team...this is just ridiculous.

there is no balance and can't be until random ones can't choose if they wan't or not to play without premade ones there.
no reason to play battlegrounds until this will be implemented - no challenge, no competition, to go solo there it's like to go with knifes against guys with rifles and transmitters.
Also what should feel healthy person equipped with gun vs opponent with knife only.
The goal here is interesting fight and challenge, not the win itself

@ZOS_Wrobel mmr only system dosn't provide expected balance. It should be also choice for players to fight or not vs organized groups in battlegrounds. Quality of life..

Alas Wrobel doesn’t work here anymore

TBH I hope he was the one responsible for the long string of very bad decisions in regards to BGs/pvp in general.

jcm2606 · January 2019

Yes

IzzyStardust wrote: »

I realllly do not agree with the idea that we should limit 4 players from grouping up and playing just because they’re better or more experienced.

I’m not on the leaderboards as I never go often enough on any given week but I am Ava 21; mostly from BG so I’m not talking out my backside, either.

Sometimes you’re just going to get owned. Too bad, try again.

It sucks sometimes to lose and lose and lose because you get teamed up with whomever; but sometimes - you win and that feels amazing!

People need to just get a bit thicker skin and stop worrying about whether it’s a premade, what they’re using or wearing or whatever and just go fight.

People hanging slack spamming chat about what killed them or because someone is using a bow, or wings or whatever - just get in.

You’ll have way more fun that way - for dk wings just get a lightning staff and heavy attack right in their face and just pressure them down and 2 shot em.

For bow guys; that’s hard (I am now and have always been a 1 shield only, no resto, non pet sorc)- I either stay away, and let them focus someone else, use the defensive thingy that stuns when they attack and when I see where they are, I stealth over and just jack them up - close and personal (even though I fight ranged usually). Make sure you have enough crit resist and resistance (1500 crit resist/impen min - and I’m on my phone - so idk exactly how much physical/spell resist I have but under and over 20k ish - respectively) and be willing to swap weapons to lightning staff, ice, use poisons if you have werewolves, have spare weapons with prismatics, etc. I find the best thing to do is to always keep up pressure.

It’s scary at first because you want to hang back if you’re a staff user - but I find getting right in other players’ faces and just keep coming is best.

Sometimes I die a LOT but I kill and assist a lot more.

I used to have far more deaths than kills; but it really does get better once you learn to use the right counterplay; and are willing to bring multiple weapons and change them depending...

1. The thing is, this isn't just a one-off, at least for me. Due to the way MMR works, and due to the fact that premade-versus-premade matching is tacked onto MMR, my stamDK, who I've played for over half a year on, now gets matched against them consistently, because they are now the only players my stamDK can match against. This isn't an occasional thing, this isn't something that you'll find once then never see again. For a lot of players, this is something that their mains will get matched against almost every single time, and consistently. Sometimes it gets so bad that I have to outright stop playing that character for a while, because I see the exact same premade half a dozen times in a row.

2. At this point, it has transcended from being owned over and over, to the fights just not being fun. I don't mind fighting a fair premade, where its just friends hanging out together, because the fights are generally good, and you generally stand at least a tiny bit of a chance. Fighting a premade who have stacked meta builds? Fighting a premade with a frost mage, a guardplar, a werewolf, and a control DK? Or really any premade with a frost mage? Not only is that not fun, that actively sucks the fun out of the game. My enjoyment flickers away as I fight them, because there's literally nothing you can do. You get into combat, you're instantly chained, snared, then stunned, then have some DPS just burst you down within less than 3 seconds. No counterplay, no escape, nothing. That isn't fun.

OrdoHermetica · January 2019

jcm2606 wrote: »

1. The thing is, this isn't just a one-off, at least for me. Due to the way MMR works, and due to the fact that premade-versus-premade matching is tacked onto MMR, my stamDK, who I've played for over half a year on, now gets matched against them consistently, because they are now the only players my stamDK can match against. This isn't an occasional thing, this isn't something that you'll find once then never see again. For a lot of players, this is something that their mains will get matched against almost every single time, and consistently. Sometimes it gets so bad that I have to outright stop playing that character for a while, because I see the exact same premade half a dozen times in a row.

Agreed. I've actually started coming up with BG builds for my long-time PvE builds just so I can actually face something other than premades with my dedicated BG toons, because yeah, at this point that's almost all I ever see, and I don't have enough skilled BG buddies to be consistently going in with a premade of my own.

Fake Remedy · January 2019

No

Battlegrounds is a 4v4v4 arena.

Anethum · January 2019

Yes

IzzyStardust wrote: »

I realllly do not agree with the idea that we should limit 4 players from grouping up and playing just because they’re better or more experienced.

I’m not on the leaderboards as I never go often enough on any given week but I am Ava 21; mostly from BG so I’m not talking out my backside, either.

Sometimes you’re just going to get owned. Too bad, try again.

It sucks sometimes to lose and lose and lose because you get teamed up with whomever; but sometimes - you win and that feels amazing!

People need to just get a bit thicker skin and stop worrying about whether it’s a premade, what they’re using or wearing or whatever and just go fight.

People hanging slack spamming chat about what killed them or because someone is using a bow, or wings or whatever - just get in.

You’ll have way more fun that way - for dk wings just get a lightning staff and heavy attack right in their face and just pressure them down and 2 shot em.

For bow guys; that’s hard (I am now and have always been a 1 shield only, no resto, non pet sorc)- I either stay away, and let them focus someone else, use the defensive thingy that stuns when they attack and when I see where they are, I stealth over and just jack them up - close and personal (even though I fight ranged usually). Make sure you have enough crit resist and resistance (1500 crit resist/impen min - and I’m on my phone - so idk exactly how much physical/spell resist I have but under and over 20k ish - respectively) and be willing to swap weapons to lightning staff, ice, use poisons if you have werewolves, have spare weapons with prismatics, etc. I find the best thing to do is to always keep up pressure.

It’s scary at first because you want to hang back if you’re a staff user - but I find getting right in other players’ faces and just keep coming is best.

Sometimes I die a LOT but I kill and assist a lot more.

I used to have far more deaths than kills; but it really does get better once you learn to use the right counterplay; and are willing to bring multiple weapons and change them depending...

do u really understand what u defend here?

Anethum · January 2019

Yes

max_only wrote: »

Anethum wrote: »

4 players with previously prepared voice-coordinated teamfunctions
vs
4 or often 3 randoms, who may be strong, but without any support guys in team...this is just ridiculous.

there is no balance and can't be until random ones can't choose if they wan't or not to play without premade ones there.
no reason to play battlegrounds until this will be implemented - no challenge, no competition, to go solo there it's like to go with knifes against guys with rifles and transmitters.
Also what should feel healthy person equipped with gun vs opponent with knife only.
The goal here is interesting fight and challenge, not the win itself

@ZOS_Wrobel mmr only system dosn't provide expected balance. It should be also choice for players to fight or not vs organized groups in battlegrounds. Quality of life..

Alas Wrobel doesn’t work here anymore

what u mean? he's fired? when? who's responcible for fighting system now?

StarOfElyon · January 2019

Yes

Anethum wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Anethum wrote: »

4 players with previously prepared voice-coordinated teamfunctions
vs
4 or often 3 randoms, who may be strong, but without any support guys in team...this is just ridiculous.

there is no balance and can't be until random ones can't choose if they wan't or not to play without premade ones there.
no reason to play battlegrounds until this will be implemented - no challenge, no competition, to go solo there it's like to go with knifes against guys with rifles and transmitters.
Also what should feel healthy person equipped with gun vs opponent with knife only.
The goal here is interesting fight and challenge, not the win itself

@ZOS_Wrobel mmr only system dosn't provide expected balance. It should be also choice for players to fight or not vs organized groups in battlegrounds. Quality of life..

Alas Wrobel doesn’t work here anymore

what u mean? he's fired? when? who's responcible for fighting system now?

GilliamTheRogue, I believe.

StarOfElyon · January 2019

Yes

I swear Battlegrounds feels like eating a block of cheese sometimes.

(I don't know why I can't upload a screenshot)