Red_Nine wrote: »

Everything with crowd behavior is organic.

Everything with behavior is organic.

Marcus684 wrote: »

I’d like to hear from an EP player what’s going on on their end when DC is getting run over by this mega-herd. Is AotP actively trying to round up every Pact player to join? Are any EP doing anything else, such as targeting an AD objective? The few times I’ve paused during one of these battles to check the map, I’ve never seen any indication of any significant action between AD and EP.

DC zone generals are constantly trying to get DC to faction-stack to take back our home keeps (usually Ash), but are never successful. There is ALWAYS a significant percentage of DC that seems to actively avoid fighting AD or EP, so we don’t seem capable as a faction of doing what Crow does with EP, and I’ve rarely seen AD get close to these numbers. What is it about AotP that makes this capability unique to them (from my perspective)?

When AP is playing, I'm not. Not because of them, but because by then the server performance is so dreadful I go play something else. Even if the servers could handle it, I'd likely swap to AD or DC for the period, since your own faction mega zerging is the least fun time to play. But from the early zone chat, a lot of it seems to just be willingness to pick up PUGs and be nice to them.

But yes, absolutely AD stacks those numbers in one place, especially versus Sej and BRK. Often. I don't know if it's a deliberate multi-guild stack, but I don't think so. And DC does sometimes in the afternoon, during which DC pushes EP relentlessly, and by the time those DC log off, EP is pretty irritated at DC.

P.S. I am not disparaging DC for pushing EP in the afternoons. I don't know why they do, but AD is scarcely on at that time, so pushing EP is certainly more sporting behavior.

VaranisArano wrote: »

[...] and should play ring around the resource instead? [...]

Hahahah, I lol'd

I actually Like the fact that army of the pact can be so well organised with so many people, its pretty damn impressive. I would honestly love to be able to fight them properly. It isn't their fault that the game cannot supply AvAvA combat without server issues.

In a perfect world the game would work and skills would cast however we stand there and grind our teeth and let the rage build until we log out and play fortnite pve... it was really weird a game with no lag no game breaking bugs.

VaranisArano wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I literally cannot imagine the mindset I would need to ruin the actual gaming performance/experience for a ton of people for no other reason than it's fun.

Sounds like someone who failed the incredibly unfailable ASVAB and is trying to make up for it elsewhere.

Try this on for a thought exercise. You like playing as coordinated team of 12 to 24 players, fighting other organized groups for campaign objectives. The enemy has one last emp keep and one of your scrolls.

You aren't going to bring just one raid because the enemy won't. You arent going to ignore the dethrone. You want your scroll back. Fun for you means fighting for that dethrone and the scroll against a very spirited defense, plus the other faction weighing in.

And yes, that last emp keep dethrone and scroll take turns into a fustercluck of lag and disconnects because ZOS can't happen it when its 3 raids vs 2 raids vs 1 raid all in the same location fighting for the dethrone/scroll take.

That fight is Cyrodiil's objectives working as designed, pulling in tons of players for important things like the dethrone, who defense, and a scroll now worth 10 points.

The fight is also a ton of fun for anyone who doesn't DC 5 times the second they get close to the keep. (That was me)

The lag and disconnects are ZOS hands down failing to handle something they designed into the game - players swarming to take important objectives.


It doesn't take deliberate action to produce game crippling lag anymore. All it takes is players going "look, a dethrone and a scroll! Those are important! We should go there!" Which is exactly what campaign minded players are supposed to do!

But maybe you think we shouldn't stack up on important objectives and should play ring around the resource instead? That certainly produces less lag....

I don't particularly care what you do.

I said I don't understand the mindset it takes to cripple the gameplay because of "OOOOO SHINY" and doing it willingly and knowingly.

I don't see the fun in making people Alt-F4 because ZOS has potato coding. Like it straight up doesn't register with me.

That's not how thought exercises work.

But since you have no interest in playing.

And that's the crux of my argument. I've stopped playing because I cannot play during the time I have in the day thanks to AOTP and ilk. I do not understand how anyone can even rationalize doing that to someone else where the most important resource in PVP is people playing the game.

NUKE 1 DROP.
NUKE 2 DROP.
NUKE 3 DROP!
100 NOOBBIES WIPE !

AP is doing good things for the EP faction. One major reason for success: raids are conducted in a cheerful fashion with no drama, optimistic, ...fun. (At least in zone chat-- I don't think they use discord)
When they wipe (yes, they wipe, it is not impossible to beat them even with 72 players) there are no recriminations, no drama, they just regroup and go somewhere else.
Crow has managed something rarely seen: running 3+ groups. This is the sort of strategy the game really needs. Each battalion can go to a different conflict, yet each force is large enough in each case to resist a large AD or DC raid. There is a reason military forces are hierarchically organized, it is more efficient from a strategic perspective.
The "zone generals" have always despaired that they couldn't get the "pugs" to do what they want. AP solves that problem.
But, of course there are strategic drawbacks, especially before they started splitting their groups to different objectives. Eg it makes no sense to see 60+ people taking an outpost. While this is happening, EP can lose unattended keeps.
AD faction routinely has 60+ players attacking an objective. This also causes huge lag. I have often disconnected at BRK when a large AD faction is there. That is a performance issue.
There is one NA sever with supposedly millions of subscribers. We don't know the exact number of players in Cyrodil, but it doesn't seem like more than 120 per side. Hard to understand why 120 players could destroy the performance like it does, when one server is housing thousands all simultaneously using abilities. CPU processors now handle 65k MIPs. Maybe the major issue is lag causing desync (Player 1 has lag of 0.1 second, player 2 0.5 second. They both fire their ability at each other at the same time. How to handle that in game play? This was solved in online Chess servers in the early 1990s, but I don't know how you could solve it with 100+ player battles)

usmcjdking wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I literally cannot imagine the mindset I would need to ruin the actual gaming performance/experience for a ton of people for no other reason than it's fun.

Sounds like someone who failed the incredibly unfailable ASVAB and is trying to make up for it elsewhere.

Try this on for a thought exercise. You like playing as coordinated team of 12 to 24 players, fighting other organized groups for campaign objectives. The enemy has one last emp keep and one of your scrolls.

You aren't going to bring just one raid because the enemy won't. You arent going to ignore the dethrone. You want your scroll back. Fun for you means fighting for that dethrone and the scroll against a very spirited defense, plus the other faction weighing in.

And yes, that last emp keep dethrone and scroll take turns into a fustercluck of lag and disconnects because ZOS can't happen it when its 3 raids vs 2 raids vs 1 raid all in the same location fighting for the dethrone/scroll take.

That fight is Cyrodiil's objectives working as designed, pulling in tons of players for important things like the dethrone, who defense, and a scroll now worth 10 points.

The fight is also a ton of fun for anyone who doesn't DC 5 times the second they get close to the keep. (That was me)

The lag and disconnects are ZOS hands down failing to handle something they designed into the game - players swarming to take important objectives.


It doesn't take deliberate action to produce game crippling lag anymore. All it takes is players going "look, a dethrone and a scroll! Those are important! We should go there!" Which is exactly what campaign minded players are supposed to do!

But maybe you think we shouldn't stack up on important objectives and should play ring around the resource instead? That certainly produces less lag....

I don't particularly care what you do.

I said I don't understand the mindset it takes to cripple the gameplay because of "OOOOO SHINY" and doing it willingly and knowingly.

I don't see the fun in making people Alt-F4 because ZOS has potato coding. Like it straight up doesn't register with me.

That's not how thought exercises work.

But since you have no interest in playing.

And that's the crux of my argument. I've stopped playing because I cannot play during the time I have in the day thanks to AOTP and ilk. I do not understand how anyone can even rationalize doing that to someone else where the most important resource in PVP is people playing the game.

And the crux of my argument is that its entirely possible to play Cyrodiil as intended and still create game breaking lag without even doing it deliberately.

I don't have to deliberately set out to break your (and my) game to unplayability. All I have to do is try to play the game as intended, showing up for important objectives that naturally and organically draw lots of players, AotP or no AotP. It happened before them and it will happen after them.

You want to be guaranteed to play? So do I. I'd dearly love to be able to dethrone an emperor versus several enemy raids without a massive laggy conflagration of misfiring skills and disconnects at the last emp keep.

Its a problem thats on ZOS to fix.

VaranisArano wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I literally cannot imagine the mindset I would need to ruin the actual gaming performance/experience for a ton of people for no other reason than it's fun.

Sounds like someone who failed the incredibly unfailable ASVAB and is trying to make up for it elsewhere.

Try this on for a thought exercise. You like playing as coordinated team of 12 to 24 players, fighting other organized groups for campaign objectives. The enemy has one last emp keep and one of your scrolls.

You aren't going to bring just one raid because the enemy won't. You arent going to ignore the dethrone. You want your scroll back. Fun for you means fighting for that dethrone and the scroll against a very spirited defense, plus the other faction weighing in.

And yes, that last emp keep dethrone and scroll take turns into a fustercluck of lag and disconnects because ZOS can't happen it when its 3 raids vs 2 raids vs 1 raid all in the same location fighting for the dethrone/scroll take.

That fight is Cyrodiil's objectives working as designed, pulling in tons of players for important things like the dethrone, who defense, and a scroll now worth 10 points.

The fight is also a ton of fun for anyone who doesn't DC 5 times the second they get close to the keep. (That was me)

The lag and disconnects are ZOS hands down failing to handle something they designed into the game - players swarming to take important objectives.


It doesn't take deliberate action to produce game crippling lag anymore. All it takes is players going "look, a dethrone and a scroll! Those are important! We should go there!" Which is exactly what campaign minded players are supposed to do!

But maybe you think we shouldn't stack up on important objectives and should play ring around the resource instead? That certainly produces less lag....

I don't particularly care what you do.

I said I don't understand the mindset it takes to cripple the gameplay because of "OOOOO SHINY" and doing it willingly and knowingly.

I don't see the fun in making people Alt-F4 because ZOS has potato coding. Like it straight up doesn't register with me.

That's not how thought exercises work.

But since you have no interest in playing.

And that's the crux of my argument. I've stopped playing because I cannot play during the time I have in the day thanks to AOTP and ilk. I do not understand how anyone can even rationalize doing that to someone else where the most important resource in PVP is people playing the game.

And the crux of my argument is that its entirely possible to play Cyrodiil as intended and still create game breaking lag without even doing it deliberately.

I don't have to deliberately set out to break your (and my) game to unplayability. All I have to do is try to play the game as intended, showing up for important objectives that naturally and organically draw lots of players, AotP or no AotP. It happened before them and it will happen after them.

You want to be guaranteed to play? So do I. I'd dearly love to be able to dethrone an emperor versus several enemy raids without a massive laggy conflagration of misfiring skills and disconnects at the last emp keep.

Its a problem thats on ZOS to fix.

What Varanis said.

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

I was on later than usual last night and one player in zone chat said they were fighting AotP for 4 hours . That is a huge time share taken out of prime-time.

I don't think DC really bothers with Ash anymore. It used to be Chal bad Ash good but the buffer Chal gives is almost imperative. And the huge laggy battles between AotP(AP) and DC militia does give AD a free hand to do what they want. The 80 man blob battles when met head on are a coin flip because of lag and disconnects. If you are not presently in a battle sphere you will disconnect on approach. If you fire 80 man blob enough times eventually you will win enough coin flips to gate a faction and take a scroll. There is no sport to this however. No marginal battles. I doubt AotP(AP) walks away from a 40 minute siege on ales saying woo-whee that was one hell of a battle. On the other hand when the DC-AD lane opens up 40 minute sieges on Ash/Nikel/Roe do happen and they are humdingers.

Impossible as AP ran from 7pm to about 9:30pm Central time last night. That's only 2.5 hours. The "one player in zone" is rarely a reliable source of information.

2.5 hours is a small time share taken out of prime-time then.

Red_Nine wrote: »

Just want to remind that nothing said here will stop AP from enjoying AvA as it is promoted to be played, so maybe this thread's run its course. Plus lately we've been splitting up almost every time we run and we only stack our raid groups when it becomes strategically necessary. So this is a lot of huffing and puffing about nothing.

Theignson wrote: »

AP is doing good things for the EP faction. One major reason for success: raids are conducted in a cheerful fashion with no drama, optimistic, ...fun. (At least in zone chat-- I don't think they use discord)
When they wipe (yes, they wipe, it is not impossible to beat them even with 72 players) there are no recriminations, no drama, they just regroup and go somewhere else.

I can vouch for the above, and go even further and say our voice chat is low-drama as well. The most drama is introduced by outsiders, such as this whiny forum topic and zone chat trolls form other factions, tbh.

Is 7pm-9:30pm CST AP's standard raiding schedule?

Hexquisite wrote: »

To boot, both small scale guilds I am in, have pretty much quit pvping, mostly because where ever you go on the map, no matter how small the objective, you get 2 raids on you. Good small scale groups can pull some pressure off. I haven't seen many on lately.

That's not a DC thing. If you try to small scale on EP, you either get nothing or all of DC/AD because people expect a zerg. It's the state of the game.

To continue to expand on the OP because somethings I glossed over such as why DC has the solution it does(back capping). When a 100 man army arrives at a keep and say 40 defenders happen to be there(because DC is splitting forces in both lanes); once the battle begins DC cannot reinforce that keep. If they come near that keep they get disconnected. If anyone who specializes in IT or server engineering/maintenance can give us a clue how we can solve this directly instead of using the work around we currently use that would be helpful and a big step towards making PC NA Vivec more meaningful. Presently the army that arrives with a 100 man force has a huge initiative and is indefensible. Besides hard counters not working because of lag DC could not field an army unless they anticipate what keep this 100 man army is going to. If they anticipate wrong then 100 DC are standing around in a keep twiddling their thumbs.

gabriebe wrote: »

I wouldn't mind so much AotP if it was all EP had. In the current state of Vivec, most of the better guilds in the game are also on EP's side.

Not so much anymore. Could you give some examples? Many of the EP guilds that were running a few months ago have disbanded or faded away. I think many of those players found a new home at AP.