PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Dragonknights

Onefrkncrzypope · September 2018

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

I find it funny and sad, how the devs quickly reverted the changes to shields from a small complaint, yet the mDK has been suffering for nearly 4 years and still nothing done.

Just says a lot, time to move on.

Their thread has over a thousand posts. People just play them more. Sucks but welp at least they are also the first to get nerfed......

The whip was brought in line with what???? That's right it lost it's stun and now costs just like crystal frag.... Too easy

I like how ZOS wants to make DKs "in line" with Sorcs… yet they refuse to give us an execute. So a Sorc has an ability that costs extra magic... but they get a *** free passive execute.

You can not compare a melee class to a ranged one, in ZOS own words, high risk high reward. Yet the shields are rubbish, no gap closer, no execute, DOTs are heavily based on crit (does not work in pvp) and the list goes on.

Sound like a high reward to me

StShoot · September 2018

Wrobel said that their DPS is on par with other classes, but they do have to fit in more heavy attacks in their rotation (from their testing) (regarding mDK)

(From Quantums Discord post)

I hope wrobel is joking, or they have dps sets i havnt access to, the dk is nowhere near the mag/stamblade. I realy want to know how they testing it to get such results.

Onefrkncrzypope · September 2018

StShoot wrote: »

Wrobel said that their DPS is on par with other classes, but they do have to fit in more heavy attacks in their rotation (from their testing) (regarding mDK)

(From Quantums Discord post)

I hope wrobel is joking, or they have dps sets i havnt access to, the dk is nowhere near the mag/stamblade. I realy want to know how they testing it to get such results.

Probably in bounds of a standard deviation. Or they looked around fear turbos cheese parses(no offense seems like the standards of PC dps test changed) and was like boom perfect

Xvorg · September 2018

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Onefrkncrzypope , I suspect that next patch, everyone and their dog will move to absorb stamina glyph (which will be physical damage) to keep up with redguad meta.

In general, I just feel that tweaks along the line "give the class a group buff" is too little, too late. Sure, slapping on some really desired buff would enforce diversity, the truck they've pulled with warden. But as a result, it won't mean that DK will be wanted in endgame because it's a well-rounded, versatile class that performs well in all situations and is fun to play and have in the group. Instead, it will be tolerated in group because of that buff, and we'll be expected to slot and use that buff simply not to be a liability.

@Xvorg, I'd say that moving to fire won't be a solution without more fundamental rework, because our CPs won't be buffing elemental damage (and stamina doesn't currently have a choice to go all fire).

Well at least it will open a spot for a dk player. I find that small changes can be easier to swallow by ZoS. Coding would be easy and no real change for most people. To go to fire or add a Stam whip or what ever other new spamable would be a challenge.

Actually the good move when they spread the dmg types around classes was giving poison to NBs (it synergyzes well with the assassin concept) and disease to DKs (strong dots with minor defile status and 0 need to keep on spamming them)

But I insist, poison is a bad dmg type and there's no way it will ever improve.

Minor defile is only good in PvP. I run poisons for that.

And losing the oblivion glyph? It's not a good trade imho. DK has no way to get defile except on a very expensive ulti, while stamblade has defile on a very cheap one, and a chance of it in its burst skill and the chance to use weapon glyphs

LonePirate · September 2018

ZoM_Head wrote: »

You can not compare a melee class to a ranged one, in ZOS own words, high risk high reward. Yet the shields are rubbish, no gap closer, no execute, DOTs are heavily based on crit (does not work in pvp) and the list goes on.

Except there are no high rewards for DKs, well for Mag DKs in particular. No execute. No mobility. Pathetic sustain. Insufficient heals. Crowd control skills which are useless in PVP. Melee skills that commonly miss their targets and when they do hit, they deal significantly less damage than stamina melee weapon skills.

Just watch a Mag DK take on a guard. Then watch a stamina weapon user take on a guard. The DPS difference is astounding.

Onefrkncrzypope · September 2018

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

StShoot wrote: »

Wrobel said that their DPS is on par with other classes, but they do have to fit in more heavy attacks in their rotation (from their testing) (regarding mDK)

(From Quantums Discord post)

I hope wrobel is joking, or they have dps sets i havnt access to, the dk is nowhere near the mag/stamblade. I realy want to know how they testing it to get such results.

Probably in bounds of a standard deviation.

Xvorg wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Onefrkncrzypope , I suspect that next patch, everyone and their dog will move to absorb stamina glyph (which will be physical damage) to keep up with redguad meta.

In general, I just feel that tweaks along the line "give the class a group buff" is too little, too late. Sure, slapping on some really desired buff would enforce diversity, the truck they've pulled with warden. But as a result, it won't mean that DK will be wanted in endgame because it's a well-rounded, versatile class that performs well in all situations and is fun to play and have in the group. Instead, it will be tolerated in group because of that buff, and we'll be expected to slot and use that buff simply not to be a liability.

@Xvorg, I'd say that moving to fire won't be a solution without more fundamental rework, because our CPs won't be buffing elemental damage (and stamina doesn't currently have a choice to go all fire).

Well at least it will open a spot for a dk player. I find that small changes can be easier to swallow by ZoS. Coding would be easy and no real change for most people. To go to fire or add a Stam whip or what ever other new spamable would be a challenge.

Actually the good move when they spread the dmg types around classes was giving poison to NBs (it synergyzes well with the assassin concept) and disease to DKs (strong dots with minor defile status and 0 need to keep on spamming them)

But I insist, poison is a bad dmg type and there's no way it will ever improve.

Minor defile is only good in PvP. I run poisons for that.

And losing the oblivion glyph? It's not a good trade imho. DK has no way to get defile except on a very expensive ulti, while stamblade has defile on a very cheap one, and a chance of it in its burst skill and the chance to use weapon glyphs

Sword and bored reverb.

IZZEFlameLash · September 2018

LonePirate wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

You can not compare a melee class to a ranged one, in ZOS own words, high risk high reward. Yet the shields are rubbish, no gap closer, no execute, DOTs are heavily based on crit (does not work in pvp) and the list goes on.

Except there are no high rewards for DKs, well for Mag DKs in particular. No execute. No mobility. Pathetic sustain. Insufficient heals. Crowd control skills which are useless in PVP. Melee skills that commonly miss their targets and when they do hit, they deal significantly less damage than stamina melee weapon skills.

Just watch a Mag DK take on a guard. Then watch a stamina weapon user take on a guard. The DPS difference is astounding.

Yep. Melee mDK is like taking over a minute to take down resource guards nowadays while stam builds are like 'hi, eat my DBoS and spin' and bam, done. DPS difference is astounding. MDK is melee focused with really low rewards. 10k of resource spent could net a kill on stam builds but not on mDK for sure.

JinMori · September 2018

Just says a lot, time to move on.[/quote]

Their thread has over a thousand posts. People just play them more. Sucks but welp at least they are also the first to get nerfed......

The whip was brought in line with what???? That's right it lost it's stun and now costs just like crystal frag.... Too easy [/quote]

I like how ZOS wants to make DKs "in line" with Sorcs… yet they refuse to give us an execute. So a Sorc has an ability that costs extra magic... but they get a *** free passive execute.[/quote]

To be fair though, the execute itself doesn't do a lot of damage, it's just in pvp where it procs and insta kill someone.

cwp303b14_ESO · September 2018

Xvorg wrote: »

StamWhipCultist wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

StamWhipCultist wrote: »

if reduced cost in poison skills is an indicator we will get stam whip, I am glad.
Also, volatile armor could deal poison or fire damage instead of magicka, it would have synergy with DK. I hope someone from zos reads this.

Please, stop with the stam whip. It could have been an option six patches ago, now it will be utter crap.

Dodgeable, without a stun, less range. Whip was never a great skill tbh, considering how slow and clunky it is. mDKs were able to use it mainly because of the heal flame lash gave you for free through power lash.

Molten whip is bad (I'm considering that's the morph that will be changed into stamina), it has always been bad (except some months after launch) and on top of that, you have to use magicka base skills to set the enemy off balance, so stamDK won't ever be able to put the enemy off balance through whip unless going S/B and using shield charge. Sure, you can try those magicka based CC like foss or talons, but it would force you to give away another magicka based utility like, mist, wings, hardened, FoO or Igneous.

If you want stamDK to be more or less relevant and with some identity in PvP, ask for something different (stone giant IS the option... a spammable that grants 100% uptime minor brutality will be quite cool). Whip would be apparently cool at the begining, but after some weeks you will realize it does less dmg than flurry, puncture or even reverse slash. If you don't believe me, just try a pelinal's build with everything into weapon dmg and magicka and slot molten whip. The numbers will be quite dissapointing

Please, try to think a bit. I know it might be very hard when you are not used to it, but practice makes perfect.

Stamina whip would have same range as magicka whip - 7 meters. Is that short? Not really.
Who said stamina whip would have same requirements as magicka one? Off balance? Using magicka skills to be able to use stam whip? You misunderstood it all.

First of all, stamina based whip would for sure be some kind of a poison based spammable. With changes to DK passives, it woulb be fairly cheap, and no matter what it would be a step in the right direction - all classes deserve class spammable no matter what resource they use to fuel their attacks. Compared to whip magicka morph noone even uses its a gigantic leap to the good stuff we might get in the future.

Also, compared to dizzying swing that a lot of DKs use atm, whip is easier to land, has no 1.1 sec channel and it will have synergy with sDK way more than any weapon based spammable we are pigeonholed in right now.

Whip doesn't give you anything. The passives that support whip are bad. The recovery in poison status is even weaker than the Battle Rush passive of 2H. No execute like DW passive, no proc... nothing. If whip is relevant for DKs is just because of the heal, nothing more.

That's why I prefer one million times a rework on Stone Giant, making it a melee hard hitting skill. The passives are just there!
Minor brutality, and extra ulti gen on a class that demands ulti gen and that recovers reso the bigger the ulti it casts. Helping hands outclasses WiR recovery by a lot and doesn't work on RGN. And what's even more interesting, you don't lose the bad passives of ardent flame if you use Claw on the combo.

It's a Wet Noodle vs Falcon Punch (or Dragon Punch if you prefer)

I think it's a great idea for a stam stone fist. You are absolutely right about the passives being much more supportive than a stam whip would have.

I think it should be a morph that:

changes the skill to stam
Drops the stun
Does more damage the closer you are to the target but keeps some range

MaxwellC · September 2018

Rather would have no stam stone fist just a new skill entirely & ofc stam whip is a no go; I do not want a copy paste for my stam counterpart. Why do I want to be on the battlefield as a re-skinned Mag DK? I want to be on the battlefield known as a Stam DK not some off-branded Mag DK.

Stam DK could have some awesome features & I've thrown around ideas since imperial city PTS which had great reception for some and others not so great. We need to heavily play on the berserker notion when regarding the Stamina DK class because that's what we should be.

cwp303b14_ESO · September 2018

MaxwellC wrote: »

Rather would have no stam stone fist just a new skill entirely & ofc stam whip is a no go; I do not want a copy paste for my stam counterpart. Why do I want to be on the battlefield as a re-skinned Mag DK? I want to be on the battlefield known as a Stam DK not some off-branded Mag DK.

Stam DK could have some awesome features & I've thrown around ideas since imperial city PTS which had great reception for some and others not so great. We need to heavily play on the berserker notion when regarding the Stamina DK class because that's what we should be.

Implementation of a new skill would mean the deletion of another and I don't see that happening.

Stone fist is a perfect place for a stam spam skill.

1. The current versions for damage conflict with another skill in the same tree(fossilize)
2. The current version is not spammable because it is conditional
3. The passives of the tree support a stamina playstyle yet both morphs are magika
4. It seems to be a skill rarely used in popular builds
5. The extra range on the damage morph conflicts with the melee skillset the rest of the dks skill lines offer
6. mDK hardest hitting spells are melee range

Kronuxx · September 2018

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

Rather would have no stam stone fist just a new skill entirely & ofc stam whip is a no go; I do not want a copy paste for my stam counterpart. Why do I want to be on the battlefield as a re-skinned Mag DK? I want to be on the battlefield known as a Stam DK not some off-branded Mag DK.

Stam DK could have some awesome features & I've thrown around ideas since imperial city PTS which had great reception for some and others not so great. We need to heavily play on the berserker notion when regarding the Stamina DK class because that's what we should be.

Implementation of a new skill would mean the deletion of another and I don't see that happening.

Stone fist is a perfect place for a stam spam skill.

1. The current versions for damage conflict with another skill in the same tree(fossilize)
2. The current version is not spammable because it is conditional
3. The passives of the tree support a stamina playstyle yet both morphs are magika
4. It seems to be a skill rarely used in popular builds
5. The extra range on the damage morph conflicts with the melee skillset the rest of the dks skill lines offer
6. mDK hardest hitting spells are melee range

I agree a short range stamina morph of stone fist seems like a better legitimate use to provide stam DK with a spammable.

Something to the effect of where stone fist morphs into Poison Fist. Poison Fist slams into the ground dealing x intial poison damage and releasing an AOE cloud of Poison damage dealing y damage over time. The aoe could be small, something to the effect of perhaps 8 m?

There are a couple of points I want to bring up.

1) ZOS needs to revert that World In Ruin change. I want back my 6% increased poison damage. That reduced poison skill cost reduction is useless. The skill are already cheap. I mean, I just can't...it's just so mind boggling and pointless to have made that change in the first place. You want to improve our sustain? Then improve the combustion passive proc to not be based on rng status effects. Period.

2) If ZOS is unlikely to add some sort of spammable, they should rework Noxious Breath. Improve its hit box significantly. Increase its initial hit damage and DOT tick, and allow it to apply one other debuff to the enemy.

Either way, reskinning the Lava Whip skill to a stamina morph is for tools who just don't want to think of another clever option. I think it's childish and asinine to just keep yelling and repeating like a bunch of herded sheep "POISON STAM WHIP!!!". A popular saying reminds of those people: Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. People who do that are not helping or doing the Stam DK class any favors. Plus, ZOS implied in the class rep notes that they wouldn't add Poison Stam Whip as a spammable.

Ragnarock41 · September 2018

Kronuxx wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

Rather would have no stam stone fist just a new skill entirely & ofc stam whip is a no go; I do not want a copy paste for my stam counterpart. Why do I want to be on the battlefield as a re-skinned Mag DK? I want to be on the battlefield known as a Stam DK not some off-branded Mag DK.

Stam DK could have some awesome features & I've thrown around ideas since imperial city PTS which had great reception for some and others not so great. We need to heavily play on the berserker notion when regarding the Stamina DK class because that's what we should be.

Implementation of a new skill would mean the deletion of another and I don't see that happening.

Stone fist is a perfect place for a stam spam skill.

1. The current versions for damage conflict with another skill in the same tree(fossilize)
2. The current version is not spammable because it is conditional
3. The passives of the tree support a stamina playstyle yet both morphs are magika
4. It seems to be a skill rarely used in popular builds
5. The extra range on the damage morph conflicts with the melee skillset the rest of the dks skill lines offer
6. mDK hardest hitting spells are melee range

I agree a short range stamina morph of stone fist seems like a better legitimate use to provide stam DK with a spammable.

Something to the effect of where stone fist morphs into Poison Fist. Poison Fist slams into the ground dealing x intial poison damage and releasing an AOE cloud of Poison damage dealing y damage over time. The aoe could be small, something to the effect of perhaps 8 m?

There are a couple of points I want to bring up.

1) ZOS needs to revert that World In Ruin change. I want back my 6% increased poison damage. That reduced poison skill cost reduction is useless. The skill are already cheap. I mean, I just can't...it's just so mind boggling and pointless to have made that change in the first place. You want to improve our sustain? Then improve the combustion passive proc to not be based on rng status effects. Period.

2) If ZOS is unlikely to add some sort of spammable, they should rework Noxious Breath. Improve its hit box significantly. Increase its initial hit damage and DOT tick, and allow it to apply one other debuff to the enemy.

Either way, reskinning the Lava Whip skill to a stamina morph is for tools who just don't want to think of another clever option. I think it's childish and asinine to just keep yelling and repeating like a bunch of herded sheep "POISON STAM WHIP!!!". A popular saying reminds of those people: Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. People who do that are not helping or doing the Stam DK class any favors. Plus, ZOS implied in the class rep notes that they wouldn't add Poison Stam Whip as a spammable.

To be real both of those ideas are trash simply because it is not enough to diversify the class from magicka Dks nor stamdens.

To hell with both stamwhip or stamfist really for this reason.. What happened to creativity? Can't we really imagine something unique for the class anyways? Why does it have to be a freaking whip or a dumb fist(which even magDks don't like to begin with) as a spammable, which makes absolutely no sense for a warrior/fighter type of class I don't even know.

Would stonefist make a good CC ability to stam? With a good secondary effect, hell yeah. Make it melee ranged and it would be used by who exactly? The secondary benefits from it needs to be really good to beat petrify or reverb bash in all honesty. Still better idea than making it a spammable.

I think all that is agreed on is the fact that something fresh , unique and powerful is needed to make a unique feeling to the class.

Maybe something like a cone spammable similar to cleave but with better damage, with a secondary effect that increase its damage taken on targets with poison dots on them. Does this sound of a dream spammable? I don't think so, does it sound more unique than a stamina convertion for whip or stonefist though? Absolutely 10 times better.

Sooo yeah , lets aim for something creative instead of a green discount magDk.

MaxwellC · September 2018

@cwp303b14_ESO
Mate we literally had a deletion of one skill which was changed into another i.e Flames of Oblivion.

Stone fist use to scale off of physical damage and it still was bad albeit it utilized magicka. I also doubt they'd drastically increase the damage in comparison to when it use to deal physical damage because that skill and it's morph is suppose to function as a utility skill rather than a damaging one, hence why I called for it's deletion.

I'm not for this "re-skin so my Stamina DK can use it notion" as I've stated consistently through-out the years of playing this game; Stamina DK needs it's own identity rather than being a copy pasted Magicka DK.

You're free to disagree with my notion but I'd rather there be a significant distinction between my Magicka DK and my Stamina DK (main character).

Kronuxx · September 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Kronuxx wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

Rather would have no stam stone fist just a new skill entirely & ofc stam whip is a no go; I do not want a copy paste for my stam counterpart. Why do I want to be on the battlefield as a re-skinned Mag DK? I want to be on the battlefield known as a Stam DK not some off-branded Mag DK.

Stam DK could have some awesome features & I've thrown around ideas since imperial city PTS which had great reception for some and others not so great. We need to heavily play on the berserker notion when regarding the Stamina DK class because that's what we should be.

Implementation of a new skill would mean the deletion of another and I don't see that happening.

Stone fist is a perfect place for a stam spam skill.

1. The current versions for damage conflict with another skill in the same tree(fossilize)
2. The current version is not spammable because it is conditional
3. The passives of the tree support a stamina playstyle yet both morphs are magika
4. It seems to be a skill rarely used in popular builds
5. The extra range on the damage morph conflicts with the melee skillset the rest of the dks skill lines offer
6. mDK hardest hitting spells are melee range

I agree a short range stamina morph of stone fist seems like a better legitimate use to provide stam DK with a spammable.

Something to the effect of where stone fist morphs into Poison Fist. Poison Fist slams into the ground dealing x intial poison damage and releasing an AOE cloud of Poison damage dealing y damage over time. The aoe could be small, something to the effect of perhaps 8 m?

There are a couple of points I want to bring up.

1) ZOS needs to revert that World In Ruin change. I want back my 6% increased poison damage. That reduced poison skill cost reduction is useless. The skill are already cheap. I mean, I just can't...it's just so mind boggling and pointless to have made that change in the first place. You want to improve our sustain? Then improve the combustion passive proc to not be based on rng status effects. Period.

2) If ZOS is unlikely to add some sort of spammable, they should rework Noxious Breath. Improve its hit box significantly. Increase its initial hit damage and DOT tick, and allow it to apply one other debuff to the enemy.

Either way, reskinning the Lava Whip skill to a stamina morph is for tools who just don't want to think of another clever option. I think it's childish and asinine to just keep yelling and repeating like a bunch of herded sheep "POISON STAM WHIP!!!". A popular saying reminds of those people: Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. People who do that are not helping or doing the Stam DK class any favors. Plus, ZOS implied in the class rep notes that they wouldn't add Poison Stam Whip as a spammable.

To be real both of those ideas are trash simply because it is not enough to diversify the class from magicka Dks nor stamdens.

To hell with both stamwhip or stamfist really for this reason.. What happened to creativity? Can't we really imagine something unique for the class anyways? Why does it have to be a freaking whip or a dumb fist(which even magDks don't like to begin with) as a spammable, which makes absolutely no sense for a warrior/fighter type of class I don't even know.

Would stonefist make a good CC ability to stam? With a good secondary effect, hell yeah. Make it melee ranged and it would be used by who exactly? The secondary benefits from it needs to be really good to beat petrify or reverb bash in all honesty. Still better idea than making it a spammable.

I think all that is agreed on is the fact that something fresh , unique and powerful is needed to make a unique feeling to the class.

Maybe something like a cone spammable similar to cleave but with better damage, with a secondary effect that increase its damage taken on targets with poison dots on them. Does this sound of a dream spammable? I don't think so, does it sound more unique than a stamina convertion for whip or stonefist though? Absolutely 10 times better.

Sooo yeah , lets aim for something creative instead of a green discount magDk.

I agree with something unique and fresh. That's a given. But, regardless of whether a spammable is introduced for Stam DK or not, still doesn't dispute the fact about my two points. That both noxious breath and the world in ruin passive (as it is in PTS currently) need to be fixed/changed and reverted, respectively. I don't want some useless poison cost reduction.

cwp303b14_ESO · September 2018

MaxwellC wrote: »

@cwp303b14_ESO
Mate we literally had a deletion of one skill which was changed into another i.e Flames of Oblivion.

Stone fist use to scale off of physical damage and it still was bad albeit it utilized magicka. I also doubt they'd drastically increase the damage in comparison to when it use to deal physical damage because that skill and it's morph is suppose to function as a utility skill rather than a damaging one, hence why I called for it's deletion.

I'm not for this "re-skin so my Stamina DK can use it notion" as I've stated consistently through-out the years of playing this game; Stamina DK needs it's own identity rather than being a copy pasted Magicka DK.

You're free to disagree with my notion but I'd rather there be a significant distinction between my Magicka DK and my Stamina DK (main character).

I don't understand what you are saying by asking for something that isn't a "re-skin" of mDK.

What other class has a completely different set of skills for stam?

Every stam class skill morph in the game has a mag morph as the other option.

The theme of the class as evidenced by the other skills and passives is a brawling melee fighter.

stone fist is a skill I don't see used at all by either mDK or sDK in part because it conflicts with another skill in the same tree and is conditional so it cannot be spammed.

A ranged, NO STUN, stam morph that increases damage the closer you are to the target fits:

1. The class theme
2. The context of the spell itself (this rock fist hits the hardest at point blank)
3. The addition of a semi ranged stam spammable thus useful to multiple builds
4. A great way to proc passives in Earthen Heart which is crucial to a stam playstyle
5. The creation of a unique conditional on a stam spammable that fits well with the class identity

Oh, and it sits extremely well with the new melee range passive in Draconic Power AND has a GREAT place in a movespeed meta

Honestly, it fits EVERY criteria I can think of including:

1. Ease of application
2. No potential problems that would be introduced if it had a CC component
3. Class theme
4. Skill theme
5. Easy to balance as it's just a damage number
6. Access to needed passives
7. Limited pushback from community since the skill is rarely utilized

Onefrkncrzypope · September 2018

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@cwp303b14_ESO
Mate we literally had a deletion of one skill which was changed into another i.e Flames of Oblivion.

Stone fist use to scale off of physical damage and it still was bad albeit it utilized magicka. I also doubt they'd drastically increase the damage in comparison to when it use to deal physical damage because that skill and it's morph is suppose to function as a utility skill rather than a damaging one, hence why I called for it's deletion.

I'm not for this "re-skin so my Stamina DK can use it notion" as I've stated consistently through-out the years of playing this game; Stamina DK needs it's own identity rather than being a copy pasted Magicka DK.

You're free to disagree with my notion but I'd rather there be a significant distinction between my Magicka DK and my Stamina DK (main character).

I don't understand what you are saying by asking for something that isn't a "re-skin" of mDK.

What other class has a completely different set of skills for stam?

Every stam class skill morph in the game has a mag morph as the other option.

The theme of the class as evidenced by the other skills and passives is a brawling melee fighter.

stone fist is a skill I don't see used at all by either mDK or sDK in part because it conflicts with another skill in the same tree and is conditional so it cannot be spammed.

A ranged, NO STUN, stam morph that increases damage the closer you are to the target fits:

1. The class theme
2. The context of the spell itself (this rock fist hits the hardest at point blank)
3. The addition of a semi ranged stam spammable thus useful to multiple builds
4. A great way to proc passives in Earthen Heart which is crucial to a stam playstyle
5. The creation of a unique conditional on a stam spammable that fits well with the class identity

Oh, and it sits extremely well with the new melee range passive in Draconic Power AND has a GREAT place in a movespeed meta

Honestly, it fits EVERY criteria I can think of including:

1. Ease of application
2. No potential problems that would be introduced if it had a CC component
3. Class theme
4. Skill theme
5. Easy to balance as it's just a damage number
6. Access to needed passives
7. Limited pushback from community since the skill is rarely utilized

If a skill in the earthen heart tree uses Stam and gives back Stam... Doesn't that sound strange? It probably wouldn't even return enough it would just make the Stam pool juggle a bit

Toc de Malsvi · September 2018

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@cwp303b14_ESO
Mate we literally had a deletion of one skill which was changed into another i.e Flames of Oblivion.

Stone fist use to scale off of physical damage and it still was bad albeit it utilized magicka. I also doubt they'd drastically increase the damage in comparison to when it use to deal physical damage because that skill and it's morph is suppose to function as a utility skill rather than a damaging one, hence why I called for it's deletion.

I'm not for this "re-skin so my Stamina DK can use it notion" as I've stated consistently through-out the years of playing this game; Stamina DK needs it's own identity rather than being a copy pasted Magicka DK.

You're free to disagree with my notion but I'd rather there be a significant distinction between my Magicka DK and my Stamina DK (main character).

I don't understand what you are saying by asking for something that isn't a "re-skin" of mDK.

What other class has a completely different set of skills for stam?

Every stam class skill morph in the game has a mag morph as the other option.

The theme of the class as evidenced by the other skills and passives is a brawling melee fighter.

stone fist is a skill I don't see used at all by either mDK or sDK in part because it conflicts with another skill in the same tree and is conditional so it cannot be spammed.

A ranged, NO STUN, stam morph that increases damage the closer you are to the target fits:

1. The class theme
2. The context of the spell itself (this rock fist hits the hardest at point blank)
3. The addition of a semi ranged stam spammable thus useful to multiple builds
4. A great way to proc passives in Earthen Heart which is crucial to a stam playstyle
5. The creation of a unique conditional on a stam spammable that fits well with the class identity

Oh, and it sits extremely well with the new melee range passive in Draconic Power AND has a GREAT place in a movespeed meta

Honestly, it fits EVERY criteria I can think of including:

1. Ease of application
2. No potential problems that would be introduced if it had a CC component
3. Class theme
4. Skill theme
5. Easy to balance as it's just a damage number
6. Access to needed passives
7. Limited pushback from community since the skill is rarely utilized

If a skill in the earthen heart tree uses Stam and gives back Stam... Doesn't that sound strange? It probably wouldn't even return enough it would just make the Stam pool juggle a bit

Right this would be way out of whack with other classes. . .

Siphoning attacks costs magicka and gives back magicka.

Crystalized Shield costs magicka and gives back magicka.

The entire green balance tree costs magicka or stamina and restores magicka or stamina.

Restoring Aura costs magicka and returns magicka.

The entire offensive skills from the assasination tree cost magick/stamina and return magicka with a kill.

Endless Fury costs magicka and returns magicka with a kill.

Meteor costs ult and returns ult.

Clearly this mechanic is unprecedented.

zParallaxz · September 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@cwp303b14_ESO
Mate we literally had a deletion of one skill which was changed into another i.e Flames of Oblivion.

Stone fist use to scale off of physical damage and it still was bad albeit it utilized magicka. I also doubt they'd drastically increase the damage in comparison to when it use to deal physical damage because that skill and it's morph is suppose to function as a utility skill rather than a damaging one, hence why I called for it's deletion.

I'm not for this "re-skin so my Stamina DK can use it notion" as I've stated consistently through-out the years of playing this game; Stamina DK needs it's own identity rather than being a copy pasted Magicka DK.

You're free to disagree with my notion but I'd rather there be a significant distinction between my Magicka DK and my Stamina DK (main character).

I don't understand what you are saying by asking for something that isn't a "re-skin" of mDK.

What other class has a completely different set of skills for stam?

Every stam class skill morph in the game has a mag morph as the other option.

The theme of the class as evidenced by the other skills and passives is a brawling melee fighter.

stone fist is a skill I don't see used at all by either mDK or sDK in part because it conflicts with another skill in the same tree and is conditional so it cannot be spammed.

A ranged, NO STUN, stam morph that increases damage the closer you are to the target fits:

1. The class theme
2. The context of the spell itself (this rock fist hits the hardest at point blank)
3. The addition of a semi ranged stam spammable thus useful to multiple builds
4. A great way to proc passives in Earthen Heart which is crucial to a stam playstyle
5. The creation of a unique conditional on a stam spammable that fits well with the class identity

Oh, and it sits extremely well with the new melee range passive in Draconic Power AND has a GREAT place in a movespeed meta

Honestly, it fits EVERY criteria I can think of including:

1. Ease of application
2. No potential problems that would be introduced if it had a CC component
3. Class theme
4. Skill theme
5. Easy to balance as it's just a damage number
6. Access to needed passives
7. Limited pushback from community since the skill is rarely utilized

If a skill in the earthen heart tree uses Stam and gives back Stam... Doesn't that sound strange? It probably wouldn't even return enough it would just make the Stam pool juggle a bit

Right this would be way out of whack with other classes. . .

Siphoning attacks costs magicka and gives back magicka.

Crystalized Shield costs magicka and gives back magicka.

The entire green balance tree costs magicka or stamina and restores magicka or stamina.

Restoring Aura costs magicka and returns magicka.

The entire offensive skills from the assasination tree cost magick/stamina and return magicka with a kill.

Endless Fury costs magicka and returns magicka with a kill.

Meteor costs ult and returns ult.

Clearly this mechanic is unprecedented.

😂 lol

The_Last_Titan · September 2018

i mean with all those examples there is a hit/kill/etc that gives back, not just a cost and at the same moment returns, cept meteor i guess but that's reliant on enemies hit

Ragnarock41 · September 2018

Kronuxx wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Kronuxx wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

Rather would have no stam stone fist just a new skill entirely & ofc stam whip is a no go; I do not want a copy paste for my stam counterpart. Why do I want to be on the battlefield as a re-skinned Mag DK? I want to be on the battlefield known as a Stam DK not some off-branded Mag DK.

Stam DK could have some awesome features & I've thrown around ideas since imperial city PTS which had great reception for some and others not so great. We need to heavily play on the berserker notion when regarding the Stamina DK class because that's what we should be.

Implementation of a new skill would mean the deletion of another and I don't see that happening.

Stone fist is a perfect place for a stam spam skill.

1. The current versions for damage conflict with another skill in the same tree(fossilize)
2. The current version is not spammable because it is conditional
3. The passives of the tree support a stamina playstyle yet both morphs are magika
4. It seems to be a skill rarely used in popular builds
5. The extra range on the damage morph conflicts with the melee skillset the rest of the dks skill lines offer
6. mDK hardest hitting spells are melee range

I agree a short range stamina morph of stone fist seems like a better legitimate use to provide stam DK with a spammable.

Something to the effect of where stone fist morphs into Poison Fist. Poison Fist slams into the ground dealing x intial poison damage and releasing an AOE cloud of Poison damage dealing y damage over time. The aoe could be small, something to the effect of perhaps 8 m?

There are a couple of points I want to bring up.

1) ZOS needs to revert that World In Ruin change. I want back my 6% increased poison damage. That reduced poison skill cost reduction is useless. The skill are already cheap. I mean, I just can't...it's just so mind boggling and pointless to have made that change in the first place. You want to improve our sustain? Then improve the combustion passive proc to not be based on rng status effects. Period.

2) If ZOS is unlikely to add some sort of spammable, they should rework Noxious Breath. Improve its hit box significantly. Increase its initial hit damage and DOT tick, and allow it to apply one other debuff to the enemy.

Either way, reskinning the Lava Whip skill to a stamina morph is for tools who just don't want to think of another clever option. I think it's childish and asinine to just keep yelling and repeating like a bunch of herded sheep "POISON STAM WHIP!!!". A popular saying reminds of those people: Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. People who do that are not helping or doing the Stam DK class any favors. Plus, ZOS implied in the class rep notes that they wouldn't add Poison Stam Whip as a spammable.

To be real both of those ideas are trash simply because it is not enough to diversify the class from magicka Dks nor stamdens.

To hell with both stamwhip or stamfist really for this reason.. What happened to creativity? Can't we really imagine something unique for the class anyways? Why does it have to be a freaking whip or a dumb fist(which even magDks don't like to begin with) as a spammable, which makes absolutely no sense for a warrior/fighter type of class I don't even know.

Would stonefist make a good CC ability to stam? With a good secondary effect, hell yeah. Make it melee ranged and it would be used by who exactly? The secondary benefits from it needs to be really good to beat petrify or reverb bash in all honesty. Still better idea than making it a spammable.

I think all that is agreed on is the fact that something fresh , unique and powerful is needed to make a unique feeling to the class.

Maybe something like a cone spammable similar to cleave but with better damage, with a secondary effect that increase its damage taken on targets with poison dots on them. Does this sound of a dream spammable? I don't think so, does it sound more unique than a stamina convertion for whip or stonefist though? Absolutely 10 times better.

Sooo yeah , lets aim for something creative instead of a green discount magDk.

I agree with something unique and fresh. That's a given. But, regardless of whether a spammable is introduced for Stam DK or not, still doesn't dispute the fact about my two points. That both noxious breath and the world in ruin passive (as it is in PTS currently) need to be fixed/changed and reverted, respectively. I don't want some useless poison cost reduction.

I agree. and lets not forget hardened/volatile armor is a dead skill slot for stamDk. I can't believe they didn't made hardened armor scale from poison. It was such a no-brainer change and they ruined it.

Onefrkncrzypope · September 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@cwp303b14_ESO
Mate we literally had a deletion of one skill which was changed into another i.e Flames of Oblivion.

Stone fist use to scale off of physical damage and it still was bad albeit it utilized magicka. I also doubt they'd drastically increase the damage in comparison to when it use to deal physical damage because that skill and it's morph is suppose to function as a utility skill rather than a damaging one, hence why I called for it's deletion.

I'm not for this "re-skin so my Stamina DK can use it notion" as I've stated consistently through-out the years of playing this game; Stamina DK needs it's own identity rather than being a copy pasted Magicka DK.

You're free to disagree with my notion but I'd rather there be a significant distinction between my Magicka DK and my Stamina DK (main character).

I don't understand what you are saying by asking for something that isn't a "re-skin" of mDK.

What other class has a completely different set of skills for stam?

Every stam class skill morph in the game has a mag morph as the other option.

The theme of the class as evidenced by the other skills and passives is a brawling melee fighter.

stone fist is a skill I don't see used at all by either mDK or sDK in part because it conflicts with another skill in the same tree and is conditional so it cannot be spammed.

A ranged, NO STUN, stam morph that increases damage the closer you are to the target fits:

1. The class theme
2. The context of the spell itself (this rock fist hits the hardest at point blank)
3. The addition of a semi ranged stam spammable thus useful to multiple builds
4. A great way to proc passives in Earthen Heart which is crucial to a stam playstyle
5. The creation of a unique conditional on a stam spammable that fits well with the class identity

Oh, and it sits extremely well with the new melee range passive in Draconic Power AND has a GREAT place in a movespeed meta

Honestly, it fits EVERY criteria I can think of including:

1. Ease of application
2. No potential problems that would be introduced if it had a CC component
3. Class theme
4. Skill theme
5. Easy to balance as it's just a damage number
6. Access to needed passives
7. Limited pushback from community since the skill is rarely utilized

If a skill in the earthen heart tree uses Stam and gives back Stam... Doesn't that sound strange? It probably wouldn't even return enough it would just make the Stam pool juggle a bit

Right this would be way out of whack with other classes. . .

Siphoning attacks costs magicka and gives back magicka.

Crystalized Shield costs magicka and gives back magicka.

The entire green balance tree costs magicka or stamina and restores magicka or stamina.

Restoring Aura costs magicka and returns magicka.

The entire offensive skills from the assasination tree cost magick/stamina and return magicka with a kill.

Endless Fury costs magicka and returns magicka with a kill.

Meteor costs ult and returns ult.

Clearly this mechanic is unprecedented.

I mean yeah those sustain skill are neat and all but helping hands gives a whopping 990 Stam back. To have your idea work it would need to be the cheapest spammable in the game. That's what I meant by a wiggle.

Toc de Malsvi · September 2018

The_Last_Titan wrote: »

i mean with all those examples there is a hit/kill/etc that gives back, not just a cost and at the same moment returns, cept meteor i guess but that's reliant on enemies hit

The large magicka return from Syphoning Attacks does not have a hit requirement. You get it when the buff expires.

I would like to see you use Shooting Star without hitting something.

The green balance passive activates when you heal, the skills heal so it activates on use.

Toc de Malsvi · September 2018

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@cwp303b14_ESO
Mate we literally had a deletion of one skill which was changed into another i.e Flames of Oblivion.

Stone fist use to scale off of physical damage and it still was bad albeit it utilized magicka. I also doubt they'd drastically increase the damage in comparison to when it use to deal physical damage because that skill and it's morph is suppose to function as a utility skill rather than a damaging one, hence why I called for it's deletion.

I'm not for this "re-skin so my Stamina DK can use it notion" as I've stated consistently through-out the years of playing this game; Stamina DK needs it's own identity rather than being a copy pasted Magicka DK.

You're free to disagree with my notion but I'd rather there be a significant distinction between my Magicka DK and my Stamina DK (main character).

I don't understand what you are saying by asking for something that isn't a "re-skin" of mDK.

What other class has a completely different set of skills for stam?

Every stam class skill morph in the game has a mag morph as the other option.

The theme of the class as evidenced by the other skills and passives is a brawling melee fighter.

stone fist is a skill I don't see used at all by either mDK or sDK in part because it conflicts with another skill in the same tree and is conditional so it cannot be spammed.

A ranged, NO STUN, stam morph that increases damage the closer you are to the target fits:

1. The class theme
2. The context of the spell itself (this rock fist hits the hardest at point blank)
3. The addition of a semi ranged stam spammable thus useful to multiple builds
4. A great way to proc passives in Earthen Heart which is crucial to a stam playstyle
5. The creation of a unique conditional on a stam spammable that fits well with the class identity

Oh, and it sits extremely well with the new melee range passive in Draconic Power AND has a GREAT place in a movespeed meta

Honestly, it fits EVERY criteria I can think of including:

1. Ease of application
2. No potential problems that would be introduced if it had a CC component
3. Class theme
4. Skill theme
5. Easy to balance as it's just a damage number
6. Access to needed passives
7. Limited pushback from community since the skill is rarely utilized

If a skill in the earthen heart tree uses Stam and gives back Stam... Doesn't that sound strange? It probably wouldn't even return enough it would just make the Stam pool juggle a bit

Right this would be way out of whack with other classes. . .

Siphoning attacks costs magicka and gives back magicka.

Crystalized Shield costs magicka and gives back magicka.

The entire green balance tree costs magicka or stamina and restores magicka or stamina.

Restoring Aura costs magicka and returns magicka.

The entire offensive skills from the assasination tree cost magick/stamina and return magicka with a kill.

Endless Fury costs magicka and returns magicka with a kill.

Meteor costs ult and returns ult.

Clearly this mechanic is unprecedented.

I mean yeah those sustain skill are neat and all but helping hands gives a whopping 990 Stam back. To have your idea work it would need to be the cheapest spammable in the game. That's what I meant by a wiggle.

Only if you fail at basic math. Lets see we need to account for the passive stam return? I mean we couldn't just make the skill cost more, that would simply be too easy right?

Helping Hands isn't the passive you want from that line anyways. The ult return is completely underutilized by all dk's especially stam DK's because the skills cost too much magicka. Also the skills are not designed to be used at the rate to maximize the ult return passive.

Lastly its not my idea, it was never my idea. I am just pointing out the flaw in the argument that Helping Hands is what makes that idea not possible.

Ragnarock41 · October 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@cwp303b14_ESO
Mate we literally had a deletion of one skill which was changed into another i.e Flames of Oblivion.

Stone fist use to scale off of physical damage and it still was bad albeit it utilized magicka. I also doubt they'd drastically increase the damage in comparison to when it use to deal physical damage because that skill and it's morph is suppose to function as a utility skill rather than a damaging one, hence why I called for it's deletion.

I'm not for this "re-skin so my Stamina DK can use it notion" as I've stated consistently through-out the years of playing this game; Stamina DK needs it's own identity rather than being a copy pasted Magicka DK.

You're free to disagree with my notion but I'd rather there be a significant distinction between my Magicka DK and my Stamina DK (main character).

I don't understand what you are saying by asking for something that isn't a "re-skin" of mDK.

What other class has a completely different set of skills for stam?

Every stam class skill morph in the game has a mag morph as the other option.

The theme of the class as evidenced by the other skills and passives is a brawling melee fighter.

stone fist is a skill I don't see used at all by either mDK or sDK in part because it conflicts with another skill in the same tree and is conditional so it cannot be spammed.

A ranged, NO STUN, stam morph that increases damage the closer you are to the target fits:

1. The class theme
2. The context of the spell itself (this rock fist hits the hardest at point blank)
3. The addition of a semi ranged stam spammable thus useful to multiple builds
4. A great way to proc passives in Earthen Heart which is crucial to a stam playstyle
5. The creation of a unique conditional on a stam spammable that fits well with the class identity

Oh, and it sits extremely well with the new melee range passive in Draconic Power AND has a GREAT place in a movespeed meta

Honestly, it fits EVERY criteria I can think of including:

1. Ease of application
2. No potential problems that would be introduced if it had a CC component
3. Class theme
4. Skill theme
5. Easy to balance as it's just a damage number
6. Access to needed passives
7. Limited pushback from community since the skill is rarely utilized

If a skill in the earthen heart tree uses Stam and gives back Stam... Doesn't that sound strange? It probably wouldn't even return enough it would just make the Stam pool juggle a bit

Right this would be way out of whack with other classes. . .

Siphoning attacks costs magicka and gives back magicka.

Crystalized Shield costs magicka and gives back magicka.

The entire green balance tree costs magicka or stamina and restores magicka or stamina.

Restoring Aura costs magicka and returns magicka.

The entire offensive skills from the assasination tree cost magick/stamina and return magicka with a kill.

Endless Fury costs magicka and returns magicka with a kill.

Meteor costs ult and returns ult.

Clearly this mechanic is unprecedented.

I mean yeah those sustain skill are neat and all but helping hands gives a whopping 990 Stam back. To have your idea work it would need to be the cheapest spammable in the game. That's what I meant by a wiggle.

Only if you fail at basic math. Lets see we need to account for the passive stam return? I mean we couldn't just make the skill cost more, that would simply be too easy right?

Helping Hands isn't the passive you want from that line anyways. The ult return is completely underutilized by all dk's especially stam DK's because the skills cost too much magicka. Also the skills are not designed to be used at the rate to maximize the ult return passive.

Lastly its not my idea, it was never my idea. I am just pointing out the flaw in the argument that Helping Hands is what makes that idea not possible.

You would end up with a spammable that costs about 4k just to be balanced because cost reduction is a thing.

More importantly earthen hearth is an utility tree, all the abilities in there are for tanking, utility or sustain. A spammable simply does not belong in there.

And even more importantly stonefist is not unique nor it fits the class theme at all.

Onefrkncrzypope · October 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@cwp303b14_ESO
Mate we literally had a deletion of one skill which was changed into another i.e Flames of Oblivion.

Stone fist use to scale off of physical damage and it still was bad albeit it utilized magicka. I also doubt they'd drastically increase the damage in comparison to when it use to deal physical damage because that skill and it's morph is suppose to function as a utility skill rather than a damaging one, hence why I called for it's deletion.

I'm not for this "re-skin so my Stamina DK can use it notion" as I've stated consistently through-out the years of playing this game; Stamina DK needs it's own identity rather than being a copy pasted Magicka DK.

You're free to disagree with my notion but I'd rather there be a significant distinction between my Magicka DK and my Stamina DK (main character).

I don't understand what you are saying by asking for something that isn't a "re-skin" of mDK.

What other class has a completely different set of skills for stam?

Every stam class skill morph in the game has a mag morph as the other option.

The theme of the class as evidenced by the other skills and passives is a brawling melee fighter.

stone fist is a skill I don't see used at all by either mDK or sDK in part because it conflicts with another skill in the same tree and is conditional so it cannot be spammed.

A ranged, NO STUN, stam morph that increases damage the closer you are to the target fits:

1. The class theme
2. The context of the spell itself (this rock fist hits the hardest at point blank)
3. The addition of a semi ranged stam spammable thus useful to multiple builds
4. A great way to proc passives in Earthen Heart which is crucial to a stam playstyle
5. The creation of a unique conditional on a stam spammable that fits well with the class identity

Oh, and it sits extremely well with the new melee range passive in Draconic Power AND has a GREAT place in a movespeed meta

Honestly, it fits EVERY criteria I can think of including:

1. Ease of application
2. No potential problems that would be introduced if it had a CC component
3. Class theme
4. Skill theme
5. Easy to balance as it's just a damage number
6. Access to needed passives
7. Limited pushback from community since the skill is rarely utilized

If a skill in the earthen heart tree uses Stam and gives back Stam... Doesn't that sound strange? It probably wouldn't even return enough it would just make the Stam pool juggle a bit

Right this would be way out of whack with other classes. . .

Siphoning attacks costs magicka and gives back magicka.

Crystalized Shield costs magicka and gives back magicka.

The entire green balance tree costs magicka or stamina and restores magicka or stamina.

Restoring Aura costs magicka and returns magicka.

The entire offensive skills from the assasination tree cost magick/stamina and return magicka with a kill.

Endless Fury costs magicka and returns magicka with a kill.

Meteor costs ult and returns ult.

Clearly this mechanic is unprecedented.

I mean yeah those sustain skill are neat and all but helping hands gives a whopping 990 Stam back. To have your idea work it would need to be the cheapest spammable in the game. That's what I meant by a wiggle.

Only if you fail at basic math. Lets see we need to account for the passive stam return? I mean we couldn't just make the skill cost more, that would simply be too easy right?

Helping Hands isn't the passive you want from that line anyways. The ult return is completely underutilized by all dk's especially stam DK's because the skills cost too much magicka. Also the skills are not designed to be used at the rate to maximize the ult return passive.

Lastly its not my idea, it was never my idea. I am just pointing out the flaw in the argument that Helping Hands is what makes that idea not possible.

I made my original point that you also insulted on helping hands. So continue to just insult the opposition to your brilliant idea. Your right stam dks would love through rocks at people for their spamable. And don't mind the fact that they are using it for a healing dk. But yeah I mean totally failed basic math. Flame some more. Continue to be rude. Doesn't help your case.

Toc de Malsvi · October 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@cwp303b14_ESO
Mate we literally had a deletion of one skill which was changed into another i.e Flames of Oblivion.

Stone fist use to scale off of physical damage and it still was bad albeit it utilized magicka. I also doubt they'd drastically increase the damage in comparison to when it use to deal physical damage because that skill and it's morph is suppose to function as a utility skill rather than a damaging one, hence why I called for it's deletion.

I'm not for this "re-skin so my Stamina DK can use it notion" as I've stated consistently through-out the years of playing this game; Stamina DK needs it's own identity rather than being a copy pasted Magicka DK.

You're free to disagree with my notion but I'd rather there be a significant distinction between my Magicka DK and my Stamina DK (main character).

I don't understand what you are saying by asking for something that isn't a "re-skin" of mDK.

What other class has a completely different set of skills for stam?

Every stam class skill morph in the game has a mag morph as the other option.

The theme of the class as evidenced by the other skills and passives is a brawling melee fighter.

stone fist is a skill I don't see used at all by either mDK or sDK in part because it conflicts with another skill in the same tree and is conditional so it cannot be spammed.

A ranged, NO STUN, stam morph that increases damage the closer you are to the target fits:

1. The class theme
2. The context of the spell itself (this rock fist hits the hardest at point blank)
3. The addition of a semi ranged stam spammable thus useful to multiple builds
4. A great way to proc passives in Earthen Heart which is crucial to a stam playstyle
5. The creation of a unique conditional on a stam spammable that fits well with the class identity

Oh, and it sits extremely well with the new melee range passive in Draconic Power AND has a GREAT place in a movespeed meta

Honestly, it fits EVERY criteria I can think of including:

1. Ease of application
2. No potential problems that would be introduced if it had a CC component
3. Class theme
4. Skill theme
5. Easy to balance as it's just a damage number
6. Access to needed passives
7. Limited pushback from community since the skill is rarely utilized

If a skill in the earthen heart tree uses Stam and gives back Stam... Doesn't that sound strange? It probably wouldn't even return enough it would just make the Stam pool juggle a bit

Right this would be way out of whack with other classes. . .

Siphoning attacks costs magicka and gives back magicka.

Crystalized Shield costs magicka and gives back magicka.

The entire green balance tree costs magicka or stamina and restores magicka or stamina.

Restoring Aura costs magicka and returns magicka.

The entire offensive skills from the assasination tree cost magick/stamina and return magicka with a kill.

Endless Fury costs magicka and returns magicka with a kill.

Meteor costs ult and returns ult.

Clearly this mechanic is unprecedented.

I mean yeah those sustain skill are neat and all but helping hands gives a whopping 990 Stam back. To have your idea work it would need to be the cheapest spammable in the game. That's what I meant by a wiggle.

Only if you fail at basic math. Lets see we need to account for the passive stam return? I mean we couldn't just make the skill cost more, that would simply be too easy right?

Helping Hands isn't the passive you want from that line anyways. The ult return is completely underutilized by all dk's especially stam DK's because the skills cost too much magicka. Also the skills are not designed to be used at the rate to maximize the ult return passive.

Lastly its not my idea, it was never my idea. I am just pointing out the flaw in the argument that Helping Hands is what makes that idea not possible.

You would end up with a spammable that costs about 4k just to be balanced because cost reduction is a thing.

More importantly earthen hearth is an utility tree, all the abilities in there are for tanking, utility or sustain. A spammable simply does not belong in there.

And even more importantly stonefist is not unique nor it fits the class theme at all.

Yes it would be about 4k, but that wouldn't matter because of the passives. In the same way that the cost of Flurry is not accounted without the passive Controlled Fury.

As to whether a spammable belongs in the skill line, I would direct you to Surprise Attack in the Shadow skill line for NB's. I will agree that a spammable in the Earthen Heart skill line would really only take advantage of Mountains Blessing. From that perspective I could see an argument against it.

Stonefist is absolutely unique there are not other stone/fist themed skills, whether it fits the class or not is a matter of perspective. If it doesn't fit the class because it appears to be less dragon themed, then the skill tree itself doesn't fit the class.

Toc de Malsvi · October 2018

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@cwp303b14_ESO
Mate we literally had a deletion of one skill which was changed into another i.e Flames of Oblivion.

Stone fist use to scale off of physical damage and it still was bad albeit it utilized magicka. I also doubt they'd drastically increase the damage in comparison to when it use to deal physical damage because that skill and it's morph is suppose to function as a utility skill rather than a damaging one, hence why I called for it's deletion.

I'm not for this "re-skin so my Stamina DK can use it notion" as I've stated consistently through-out the years of playing this game; Stamina DK needs it's own identity rather than being a copy pasted Magicka DK.

You're free to disagree with my notion but I'd rather there be a significant distinction between my Magicka DK and my Stamina DK (main character).

I don't understand what you are saying by asking for something that isn't a "re-skin" of mDK.

What other class has a completely different set of skills for stam?

Every stam class skill morph in the game has a mag morph as the other option.

The theme of the class as evidenced by the other skills and passives is a brawling melee fighter.

stone fist is a skill I don't see used at all by either mDK or sDK in part because it conflicts with another skill in the same tree and is conditional so it cannot be spammed.

A ranged, NO STUN, stam morph that increases damage the closer you are to the target fits:

1. The class theme
2. The context of the spell itself (this rock fist hits the hardest at point blank)
3. The addition of a semi ranged stam spammable thus useful to multiple builds
4. A great way to proc passives in Earthen Heart which is crucial to a stam playstyle
5. The creation of a unique conditional on a stam spammable that fits well with the class identity

Oh, and it sits extremely well with the new melee range passive in Draconic Power AND has a GREAT place in a movespeed meta

Honestly, it fits EVERY criteria I can think of including:

1. Ease of application
2. No potential problems that would be introduced if it had a CC component
3. Class theme
4. Skill theme
5. Easy to balance as it's just a damage number
6. Access to needed passives
7. Limited pushback from community since the skill is rarely utilized

If a skill in the earthen heart tree uses Stam and gives back Stam... Doesn't that sound strange? It probably wouldn't even return enough it would just make the Stam pool juggle a bit

Right this would be way out of whack with other classes. . .

Siphoning attacks costs magicka and gives back magicka.

Crystalized Shield costs magicka and gives back magicka.

The entire green balance tree costs magicka or stamina and restores magicka or stamina.

Restoring Aura costs magicka and returns magicka.

The entire offensive skills from the assasination tree cost magick/stamina and return magicka with a kill.

Endless Fury costs magicka and returns magicka with a kill.

Meteor costs ult and returns ult.

Clearly this mechanic is unprecedented.

I mean yeah those sustain skill are neat and all but helping hands gives a whopping 990 Stam back. To have your idea work it would need to be the cheapest spammable in the game. That's what I meant by a wiggle.

Only if you fail at basic math. Lets see we need to account for the passive stam return? I mean we couldn't just make the skill cost more, that would simply be too easy right?

Helping Hands isn't the passive you want from that line anyways. The ult return is completely underutilized by all dk's especially stam DK's because the skills cost too much magicka. Also the skills are not designed to be used at the rate to maximize the ult return passive.

Lastly its not my idea, it was never my idea. I am just pointing out the flaw in the argument that Helping Hands is what makes that idea not possible.

I made my original point that you also insulted on helping hands. So continue to just insult the opposition to your brilliant idea. Your right stam dks would love through rocks at people for their spamable. And don't mind the fact that they are using it for a healing dk. But yeah I mean totally failed basic math. Flame some more. Continue to be rude. Doesn't help your case.

I will repeat for those who cannot read: it's not my idea, it doesn't benefit me. Crushing Weapon weaves quite nicely with the bow, lacking a spammable outside the bow line isn't a problem anymore. Spammables outside the bow line do not work well with bow/bow, dot's work fine only because you lack dots and need them to fill a rotation, spammables do not scale with Hawk Eye and are very weak because of it.

Prior to this PTS on NB snipe parse could reach 48k+, while Crushing Weapon was hitting around 43k, precisely because of Hawk Eye scaling. NB's take advantage of Crushing Weapon weave significantly better than any other class, due to weaving interaction with Relentless Focus. Making Stone Giant a ranged spammable does not benefit bows without a complete restructure of Hawk Eye or making the skill massively OP for melee.

Your original point was a misguided as your current iteration. I don't know how people leveled up DK's and ignored the fact that they had an "Earthen Heart" tree? Rocks are as much a part of being a DK as fire, it has been there from the beginning.

Where did the healing argument arise from and what does it have to do with the discussion of whether or not a spammable could fit within the Earthen Heart tree? I realize I may have come off a little harsh, but seriously this is just diverting from the subject.

Mettaricana · October 2018

I wanna like zos but i dont think I've ever seen more clueless developers nor have i ever found so many useless classes in a game for the sake of balance....

Onefrkncrzypope · October 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@cwp303b14_ESO
Mate we literally had a deletion of one skill which was changed into another i.e Flames of Oblivion.

Stone fist use to scale off of physical damage and it still was bad albeit it utilized magicka. I also doubt they'd drastically increase the damage in comparison to when it use to deal physical damage because that skill and it's morph is suppose to function as a utility skill rather than a damaging one, hence why I called for it's deletion.

I'm not for this "re-skin so my Stamina DK can use it notion" as I've stated consistently through-out the years of playing this game; Stamina DK needs it's own identity rather than being a copy pasted Magicka DK.

You're free to disagree with my notion but I'd rather there be a significant distinction between my Magicka DK and my Stamina DK (main character).

I don't understand what you are saying by asking for something that isn't a "re-skin" of mDK.

What other class has a completely different set of skills for stam?

Every stam class skill morph in the game has a mag morph as the other option.

The theme of the class as evidenced by the other skills and passives is a brawling melee fighter.

stone fist is a skill I don't see used at all by either mDK or sDK in part because it conflicts with another skill in the same tree and is conditional so it cannot be spammed.

A ranged, NO STUN, stam morph that increases damage the closer you are to the target fits:

1. The class theme
2. The context of the spell itself (this rock fist hits the hardest at point blank)
3. The addition of a semi ranged stam spammable thus useful to multiple builds
4. A great way to proc passives in Earthen Heart which is crucial to a stam playstyle
5. The creation of a unique conditional on a stam spammable that fits well with the class identity

Oh, and it sits extremely well with the new melee range passive in Draconic Power AND has a GREAT place in a movespeed meta

Honestly, it fits EVERY criteria I can think of including:

1. Ease of application
2. No potential problems that would be introduced if it had a CC component
3. Class theme
4. Skill theme
5. Easy to balance as it's just a damage number
6. Access to needed passives
7. Limited pushback from community since the skill is rarely utilized

If a skill in the earthen heart tree uses Stam and gives back Stam... Doesn't that sound strange? It probably wouldn't even return enough it would just make the Stam pool juggle a bit

Right this would be way out of whack with other classes. . .

Siphoning attacks costs magicka and gives back magicka.

Crystalized Shield costs magicka and gives back magicka.

The entire green balance tree costs magicka or stamina and restores magicka or stamina.

Restoring Aura costs magicka and returns magicka.

The entire offensive skills from the assasination tree cost magick/stamina and return magicka with a kill.

Endless Fury costs magicka and returns magicka with a kill.

Meteor costs ult and returns ult.

Clearly this mechanic is unprecedented.

I mean yeah those sustain skill are neat and all but helping hands gives a whopping 990 Stam back. To have your idea work it would need to be the cheapest spammable in the game. That's what I meant by a wiggle.

Only if you fail at basic math. Lets see we need to account for the passive stam return? I mean we couldn't just make the skill cost more, that would simply be too easy right?

Helping Hands isn't the passive you want from that line anyways. The ult return is completely underutilized by all dk's especially stam DK's because the skills cost too much magicka. Also the skills are not designed to be used at the rate to maximize the ult return passive.

Lastly its not my idea, it was never my idea. I am just pointing out the flaw in the argument that Helping Hands is what makes that idea not possible.

I made my original point that you also insulted on helping hands. So continue to just insult the opposition to your brilliant idea. Your right stam dks would love through rocks at people for their spamable. And don't mind the fact that they are using it for a healing dk. But yeah I mean totally failed basic math. Flame some more. Continue to be rude. Doesn't help your case.

I will repeat for those who cannot read: it's not my idea, it doesn't benefit me. Crushing Weapon weaves quite nicely with the bow, lacking a spammable outside the bow line isn't a problem anymore. Spammables outside the bow line do not work well with bow/bow, dot's work fine only because you lack dots and need them to fill a rotation, spammables do not scale with Hawk Eye and are very weak because of it.

Prior to this PTS on NB snipe parse could reach 48k+, while Crushing Weapon was hitting around 43k, precisely because of Hawk Eye scaling. NB's take advantage of Crushing Weapon weave significantly better than any other class, due to weaving interaction with Relentless Focus. Making Stone Giant a ranged spammable does not benefit bows without a complete restructure of Hawk Eye or making the skill massively OP for melee.

Your original point was a misguided as your current iteration. I don't know how people leveled up DK's and ignored the fact that they had an "Earthen Heart" tree? Rocks are as much a part of being a DK as fire, it has been there from the beginning.

Where did the healing argument arise from and what does it have to do with the discussion of whether or not a spammable could fit within the Earthen Heart tree? I realize I may have come off a little harsh, but seriously this is just diverting from the subject.

Regardless of your idea or not, you took the banner and was far to aggressive in your response to expect any other type of response. The first post that you stated in sarcasm showed skills dedicated to sustain on other classes. None of them are spammables with a direct return on an attribute pool for damage. Since you choose that as you argument, I countered that in order for stonefist to return any stam it must be cheaper that the helping hands passive return of 990. Now if we are talking just to view it as a cost reduction for the skill, it is pretty convoluted as a cost reduction but sure lets go with that. Regardless you used sarcasm and insults. That caused bounce back. Be more clear and objective next time.

Most likely that any character that is lacking a relevant spammable will never receive any in the near future. ZoS thinks they solved that by introducing imbue weapon and its morphs. They are done. Everyone can use it, it hits hard, has some juicy second effects, not hard to get. They are probably done with the spammable discussion.

Honestly unfortunately with sustain as well. They believe that the sustain issues are solved with this patch. Any other issues, is just invest in sustain enchants or traits.

Finally you confusion on why everyone thinks earthen heart is a non-combative skill tree is because that definition is set by ZoS. It was defined as such awhile ago. There is already a damage skill in that line as well and putting anymore would contradict their new definition of that tree.