PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Dragonknights

John_Falstaff

Yes, we have that stigma of being tanks and nothing else of us. Hear dragonknight, think tank. Disgusting situation.

I'd be lying if I said I'm not looking forward to the upcoming (today, wasn't it?) rep meeting. I feel it's going to be a lithmus paper to tell us whether there's any point in keeping on trying.

Screamo

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Our passives and damage looks good on paper and no one plays dk on the dev team. You can tell because of how even their Nerf are quite off on the dk. Gilliam complained on the beam gets a job there and it gets fixed. It just no one has an idea to help dk. Plus we tend to be less vocal then all other classes. Sorcs thread is in the thousands and our thread is usually on the second page...

Sorc got a massive buff to deal because of people complaining. While our thread is buried under troll threads and anger threads because of shields.

ZoS thinks tanky is enough and ignores how little our DPS has grown with the power creep. Every class has damage passive but not a dk. Why because ZoS thinks "tanks" shouldn't do damage.

It another patch where temps get buff nightblades gets a slap on the wrists and sorcs get all the attention. The only thing different is wardens were finally mentioned in the patch notes.

I just want to play my main and feel like it's just not try to not die until someone else kills them.... PvP and PvE mantra is the same dks are tanks......

Quick add: If ZoS continues down this path of all class do all roles we will see dks getting pass up as the best tank to... They currently only hold ultity gen and engulfing over wardens. Two things and dks will be worthless in every role

Did i miss warden having worse ult gen than dks?

Suryoyo

Screamo wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Our passives and damage looks good on paper and no one plays dk on the dev team. You can tell because of how even their Nerf are quite off on the dk. Gilliam complained on the beam gets a job there and it gets fixed. It just no one has an idea to help dk. Plus we tend to be less vocal then all other classes. Sorcs thread is in the thousands and our thread is usually on the second page...

Sorc got a massive buff to deal because of people complaining. While our thread is buried under troll threads and anger threads because of shields.

ZoS thinks tanky is enough and ignores how little our DPS has grown with the power creep. Every class has damage passive but not a dk. Why because ZoS thinks "tanks" shouldn't do damage.

It another patch where temps get buff nightblades gets a slap on the wrists and sorcs get all the attention. The only thing different is wardens were finally mentioned in the patch notes.

I just want to play my main and feel like it's just not try to not die until someone else kills them.... PvP and PvE mantra is the same dks are tanks......

Quick add: If ZoS continues down this path of all class do all roles we will see dks getting pass up as the best tank to... They currently only hold ultity gen and engulfing over wardens. Two things and dks will be worthless in every role

Did i miss warden having worse ult gen than dks?

The big difference between DK and other classes is that other classes can time their ulti to finish off their opponents while we DK, most of the time can't, we time our ulti based on the amount of our ressources left (high cost skills ? poor sustain built-in within the class ? Worthless melee spammable that can be avoided ? DoT that can be clean forcing us to reapply them ? Overall skills that are not threatening/no high damage at all, except leap ?), indicating that we are almost dead, one/two rotation left before being a zombie, worthless.

DK's definition of ulti is at the opposite of the word ultimate itself lol...

Worth mentioning also that ZoS played with this passive like no other lol.

Maikon

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Hey all!

I'll be focused on taking a lot of feedback from this thread. Personally, I think most of the changes were in the right direction, but weren't changed fully or correctly.

As far as stamDK goes, it's good to see them starting to take small steps towards the right directions. A couple of changes to passives oriented towards stamDKs are welcome and a good indicator that ZoS is working on creating a more complete poisons synergy gameplay for stamDKs. I do feel changes were underwhelming though, few passives and the net evolution of the class isn't enough, still a decent way from giving stamDKs what they really need.

As far as mDK goes, things went both ways. Good change to burning embers range increase, nice changes regarding ash cloud for PvE DDs and healers. Removing powerlash stun is actually significant buff to mDKs, but quickly counteracted by adding a cost to the skill. MDKs are arguably the only class that runs Equilibrium for competitive sustained DPS in PvE and PvP sustain can be very tricky post battleroar nerf. I don't really understand the reasoning for this change as the only argument provided by ZoS was a sketchy magsorc comparison. Both classes behave and play very differently, using that as argumentation to implement a change like that isn't justified.

Our next meeting with ZoS is schedueled for Tuesday next week, lets do our best to test things on PTS before attacking/praising them. Please keep the feedback coming so that we can still promote more and better changes.

Thanks everyone!

If you clearly think that the stun removal from power lash is a huge buff, then you have no business being the class rep.

For a random mag dk is a nerf cause you have no idea what lining a burst means. Giving cc immunity with your spammable means you have no control over the stun, and good players need control to perform at maximum. That’s why every veteran mag dk is excited about this change while pugs complain

If you think there's any actual form of cc immunity in pvp, then you're not a pvp'er. CC immunity is almost no existent.

That stun has taken down countless sorcs and healers.

For any real vet mDK pvp'er, that stun is an actual asset, if you think otherwise then you must be a DC player.

Xvorg

scipionumatia wrote: »

@Xvorg when you say we are weaker on pts than on live is it because of the AoE mitigation that evade offers now? or is it because sustain has been tossed?

just wanna know what to expect and if I should be planning on playing mag or stam dk next patch.

Both. I think if going the sustain way would make you die less, but you won't kill anything (includin the wolves outside BRK). The other path is to go glass tank trying to do dmg on stam specs with AoEs (which include almost all DK utilities, ultis etc).

Funny thing? ZoS "buffed" Breath with the last change done in the wolves patch , and now indirectly nerfed it again.

Nuff said, the change to evasion tries to address zerging, but, as always, it will become a zerg tool. The Steelnado train has come back guys, but DKs are not allowed there...

LonePirate

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I really don't understand why the hell we're even providing feedback at this point.

This is a very good point. Why are we providing input? ZOS certainly does not listen to, let alone incorporate any feedback from regular users. Apart from maybe an entry level QA or support person, I don’t think anyone at ZOS plays a Mag DK, or even a Stam DK for that matter. The changes to the class during the past two to three years suggests ZOS has zero understanding of the class and they appear to have no intention of understanding it.

Not only that but the DKs in the class reps program have been ineffective advocates at best and outright saboteurs at worst. They have not helped the class at all and I strongly believe the DK class would be better off if DKs were NOT included in the class reps program at all. That’s a sad but true opinion, unfortunately.

In short, providing DK feedback is an absolute waste of time as there is nobody with any authority at ZOS who is willing to listen to us and incorporate our feedback.

Onefrkncrzypope

Screamo wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Our passives and damage looks good on paper and no one plays dk on the dev team. You can tell because of how even their Nerf are quite off on the dk. Gilliam complained on the beam gets a job there and it gets fixed. It just no one has an idea to help dk. Plus we tend to be less vocal then all other classes. Sorcs thread is in the thousands and our thread is usually on the second page...

Sorc got a massive buff to deal because of people complaining. While our thread is buried under troll threads and anger threads because of shields.

ZoS thinks tanky is enough and ignores how little our DPS has grown with the power creep. Every class has damage passive but not a dk. Why because ZoS thinks "tanks" shouldn't do damage.

It another patch where temps get buff nightblades gets a slap on the wrists and sorcs get all the attention. The only thing different is wardens were finally mentioned in the patch notes.

I just want to play my main and feel like it's just not try to not die until someone else kills them.... PvP and PvE mantra is the same dks are tanks......

Quick add: If ZoS continues down this path of all class do all roles we will see dks getting pass up as the best tank to... They currently only hold ultity gen and engulfing over wardens. Two things and dks will be worthless in every role

Did i miss warden having worse ult gen than dks?

I meant in pve. If no ranged attacks dks generate ult faster. PvP ye warden for sure. PvE is the only place dks have a spot at the high table for now.

Suryoyo

About the Warmth and Searing heat passive, they've been nerfed update after update, with our overall effectiveness decreasing a lot, especially with the changes to evasion, light/medium armour changes, dodge changes, snares etc.

Instead of giving range, we should get incentive to play melee, like adding one of these passives the following (or similar I don't know...):

Increase our chances (+5/10%) to deal a critical strike when being at 5-7 meters or less of our target. Yes, the fact that we play melee should makes us more precise no ? or deal higher damages ?

Also add something like the more we're close to our opponents (and based on our missing health), the more we get some skill cost reduction maybe.

These are just ideas. This is the way the class should be played imho. If we want range we already got destro skills and stone fist, enough.

Instead of nerfing flame lash range, adding cost, I just don't understand the logic/motivation...

About battle roar, right know, it just pushes us to use it to barely get some ressources back instead of using our ultimates to finish off ennemies. It should either see an increase in the ressources given back or adding an increase of the damage of our ultimates, it's a battle roar not a cry for help, I don't know...

Xvorg

Suryoyo wrote: »

About the Warmth and Searing heat passive, they've been nerfed update after update, with our overall effectiveness decreasing a lot, especially with the changes to evasion, light/medium armour changes, dodge changes, snares etc.

Instead of giving range, we should get incentive to play melee, like adding one of these passives the following (or similar I don't know...):

Increase our chances (+5/10%) to deal a critical strike when being at 5-7 meters or less of our target. Yes, the fact that we play melee should makes us more precise no ? or deal higher damages ?

Also add something like the more we're close to our opponents (and based on our missing health), the more we get some skill cost reduction maybe.

These are just ideas. This is the way the class should be played imho. If we want range we already got destro skills and stone fist, enough.

Instead of nerfing flame lash range, adding cost, I just don't understand the logic/motivation...

About battle roar, right know, it just pushes us to use it to barely get some ressources back instead of using our ultimates to finish off ennemies. It should either see an increase in the ressources given back or adding an increase of the damage of our ultimates, it's a battle roar not a cry for help, I don't know...

well, last 2 years I've been saying that the ardent flame passives are the worst of any spec in the game. Lately this has become an issue and the DK community can see it, but even if we all say the same to the development team, we won't be listened. Your ideas are great and I wish they could consider them, but to be honest I doubt it.

I hope that in the next 2 years others will be able to see the necessary changes for DK. Time goes by, priorities change, and, to be honest, I'm not enjoying the game as I used to. At the end I kept on playing because I had hope that one monday, in the PTS forum I would see something that let me keep on playing. Today all that hope died when I read 0... ZERO changes to DK, despite all the input we gave them last week.

John_Falstaff

@Quantum_V , any insights on the yesterday's meeting? Share, give us some hope. ^^

Onefrkncrzypope

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Quantum_V , any insights on the yesterday's meeting? Share, give us some hope. ^^

quoted from the discord:

Hey @everyone!

Just want to quickly give you all some insight on the DK part of the meeting we had today and ask you guys for some help with a small project I'll work on tomorrow.

Firstly, about the meeting. Sadly real life got in the way and I had to go before the meeting formally finished, yet I did get the DK points across - yet not in the depth I wanted due to my irl time restriction. As far as stamDKs go I basically talked about how stamDKs felt very underwhelmed with the changes. Reducing the cost of very cheap skills doesn't really help their sustain, and the passive only works on bow abilities, which is a weapon choice that stamDKs don't go after as it doesn't fit their playstyle, specially in PvP. I talked about the general disappointment revolving noxious; still very difficult to land, damage is very low and provides a rather useless secondary effect in the stamDK aresenal. I also told them that the damage should be buffed to atleast equate its old damage before the changes to passives, but in reality this specific skill needs a lot more to be viable.

I mentioned the fact that core pain points weren't addressed at all regarding stamDKs. They still have no poison synergy and far from enough morphs to complement their kit. I asked Wrobel if we could expect some stamina skills in the near future, it seems like the questions was evaded a bit, but I picked up a 'no' from his part (might be wrong though)
.
As far as mDKs I talked about the whip change and tried to emphasize as much as I could the fact that mDKs really can't take another sustain nerf. Wrobel said that their DPS is on par with other classes, but they do have to fit in more heavy attacks in their rotation (from their testing). I brought up that whip is unreliable as it is, missing more often than not in PvP scenarios - which equates into a pretty considerable sustain nerf on whip. I told them about embers and whip still being very unreliable when it comes to hitting targets from my testing, mostly due to swift (which he confirmed is getting looked into btw). I also talked about how the core issues revolving magdk is the way they currently fit in the meta. They don't have the control to keep up with opponents, as we're in a meta that revolves around forward momentum, immov pots and very fast targets. And that we can't easily deal with bleeds and defiles in most builds - thus putting DK in general in a sort of limbo cyrodiil.
.
(I might be forgetting something, but I think I covered most of what went on in the meeting here)
.
And as far as the project goes: I'm working on sending ZoS a more detailed feedback document regarding DKs by Thrusday. I'll write up the initial document, but I plan on linking it here so everyone can read and give their input together so I can add or change things before I send it over. Your input here is very important, so we can tailor a accurate and descriptive feedback medium for the devs. I'll be linking the doc everytime I change something so that you guys can also give your opinion on everything. Then I'll be sending the document by Thursday, hopefully giving them enough time to apply some changes before PTS 3 and 4.

IZZEFlameLash

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Quantum_V , any insights on the yesterday's meeting? Share, give us some hope. ^^

quoted from the discord:

Hey @everyone!

Just want to quickly give you all some insight on the DK part of the meeting we had today and ask you guys for some help with a small project I'll work on tomorrow.

Firstly, about the meeting. Sadly real life got in the way and I had to go before the meeting formally finished, yet I did get the DK points across - yet not in the depth I wanted due to my irl time restriction. As far as stamDKs go I basically talked about how stamDKs felt very underwhelmed with the changes. Reducing the cost of very cheap skills doesn't really help their sustain, and the passive only works on bow abilities, which is a weapon choice that stamDKs don't go after as it doesn't fit their playstyle, specially in PvP. I talked about the general disappointment revolving noxious; still very difficult to land, damage is very low and provides a rather useless secondary effect in the stamDK aresenal. I also told them that the damage should be buffed to atleast equate its old damage before the changes to passives, but in reality this specific skill needs a lot more to be viable.

I mentioned the fact that core pain points weren't addressed at all regarding stamDKs. They still have no poison synergy and far from enough morphs to complement their kit. I asked Wrobel if we could expect some stamina skills in the near future, it seems like the questions was evaded a bit, but I picked up a 'no' from his part (might be wrong though)
.
As far as mDKs I talked about the whip change and tried to emphasize as much as I could the fact that mDKs really can't take another sustain nerf. Wrobel said that their DPS is on par with other classes, but they do have to fit in more heavy attacks in their rotation (from their testing). I brought up that whip is unreliable as it is, missing more often than not in PvP scenarios - which equates into a pretty considerable sustain nerf on whip. I told them about embers and whip still being very unreliable when it comes to hitting targets from my testing, mostly due to swift (which he confirmed is getting looked into btw). I also talked about how the core issues revolving magdk is the way they currently fit in the meta. They don't have the control to keep up with opponents, as we're in a meta that revolves around forward momentum, immov pots and very fast targets. And that we can't easily deal with bleeds and defiles in most builds - thus putting DK in general in a sort of limbo cyrodiil.
.
(I might be forgetting something, but I think I covered most of what went on in the meeting here)
.
And as far as the project goes: I'm working on sending ZoS a more detailed feedback document regarding DKs by Thrusday. I'll write up the initial document, but I plan on linking it here so everyone can read and give their input together so I can add or change things before I send it over. Your input here is very important, so we can tailor a accurate and descriptive feedback medium for the devs. I'll be linking the doc everytime I change something so that you guys can also give your opinion on everything. Then I'll be sending the document by Thursday, hopefully giving them enough time to apply some changes before PTS 3 and 4.

Sigh, Wrobel is really something. Since when were mDKs on par with other classes as far as DPS goes? Are they pulling 10k on dummies on each classes or something? And since when were DKs sustain gods enough that they can take another sustain nerf? Heavy attack meta is not fun and Wrobel clearly thinks it is fun. Sigh... why even bother with this game.

Oh and, those who think mDK is a strong PvP class, just wait and see when you have played the class for a while.

Onefrkncrzypope

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Quantum_V , any insights on the yesterday's meeting? Share, give us some hope. ^^

quoted from the discord:

Hey @everyone!

Just want to quickly give you all some insight on the DK part of the meeting we had today and ask you guys for some help with a small project I'll work on tomorrow.

Firstly, about the meeting. Sadly real life got in the way and I had to go before the meeting formally finished, yet I did get the DK points across - yet not in the depth I wanted due to my irl time restriction. As far as stamDKs go I basically talked about how stamDKs felt very underwhelmed with the changes. Reducing the cost of very cheap skills doesn't really help their sustain, and the passive only works on bow abilities, which is a weapon choice that stamDKs don't go after as it doesn't fit their playstyle, specially in PvP. I talked about the general disappointment revolving noxious; still very difficult to land, damage is very low and provides a rather useless secondary effect in the stamDK aresenal. I also told them that the damage should be buffed to atleast equate its old damage before the changes to passives, but in reality this specific skill needs a lot more to be viable.

I mentioned the fact that core pain points weren't addressed at all regarding stamDKs. They still have no poison synergy and far from enough morphs to complement their kit. I asked Wrobel if we could expect some stamina skills in the near future, it seems like the questions was evaded a bit, but I picked up a 'no' from his part (might be wrong though)
.
As far as mDKs I talked about the whip change and tried to emphasize as much as I could the fact that mDKs really can't take another sustain nerf. Wrobel said that their DPS is on par with other classes, but they do have to fit in more heavy attacks in their rotation (from their testing). I brought up that whip is unreliable as it is, missing more often than not in PvP scenarios - which equates into a pretty considerable sustain nerf on whip. I told them about embers and whip still being very unreliable when it comes to hitting targets from my testing, mostly due to swift (which he confirmed is getting looked into btw). I also talked about how the core issues revolving magdk is the way they currently fit in the meta. They don't have the control to keep up with opponents, as we're in a meta that revolves around forward momentum, immov pots and very fast targets. And that we can't easily deal with bleeds and defiles in most builds - thus putting DK in general in a sort of limbo cyrodiil.
.
(I might be forgetting something, but I think I covered most of what went on in the meeting here)
.
And as far as the project goes: I'm working on sending ZoS a more detailed feedback document regarding DKs by Thrusday. I'll write up the initial document, but I plan on linking it here so everyone can read and give their input together so I can add or change things before I send it over. Your input here is very important, so we can tailor a accurate and descriptive feedback medium for the devs. I'll be linking the doc everytime I change something so that you guys can also give your opinion on everything. Then I'll be sending the document by Thursday, hopefully giving them enough time to apply some changes before PTS 3 and 4.

Sigh, Wrobel is really something. Since when were mDKs on par with other classes as far as DPS goes? Are they pulling 10k on dummies on each classes or something? And since when were DKs sustain gods enough that they can take another sustain nerf? Heavy attack meta is not fun and Wrobel clearly thinks it is fun. Sigh... why even bother with this game.

Oh and, those who think mDK is a strong PvP class, just wait and see when you have played the class for a while.

Wrobel believes if you want a light attack rotation then just spec into sustain. It doesn't matter that other classes can do both without any sacrifice.

IZZEFlameLash

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Quantum_V , any insights on the yesterday's meeting? Share, give us some hope. ^^

quoted from the discord:

Hey @everyone!

Just want to quickly give you all some insight on the DK part of the meeting we had today and ask you guys for some help with a small project I'll work on tomorrow.

Firstly, about the meeting. Sadly real life got in the way and I had to go before the meeting formally finished, yet I did get the DK points across - yet not in the depth I wanted due to my irl time restriction. As far as stamDKs go I basically talked about how stamDKs felt very underwhelmed with the changes. Reducing the cost of very cheap skills doesn't really help their sustain, and the passive only works on bow abilities, which is a weapon choice that stamDKs don't go after as it doesn't fit their playstyle, specially in PvP. I talked about the general disappointment revolving noxious; still very difficult to land, damage is very low and provides a rather useless secondary effect in the stamDK aresenal. I also told them that the damage should be buffed to atleast equate its old damage before the changes to passives, but in reality this specific skill needs a lot more to be viable.

I mentioned the fact that core pain points weren't addressed at all regarding stamDKs. They still have no poison synergy and far from enough morphs to complement their kit. I asked Wrobel if we could expect some stamina skills in the near future, it seems like the questions was evaded a bit, but I picked up a 'no' from his part (might be wrong though)
.
As far as mDKs I talked about the whip change and tried to emphasize as much as I could the fact that mDKs really can't take another sustain nerf. Wrobel said that their DPS is on par with other classes, but they do have to fit in more heavy attacks in their rotation (from their testing). I brought up that whip is unreliable as it is, missing more often than not in PvP scenarios - which equates into a pretty considerable sustain nerf on whip. I told them about embers and whip still being very unreliable when it comes to hitting targets from my testing, mostly due to swift (which he confirmed is getting looked into btw). I also talked about how the core issues revolving magdk is the way they currently fit in the meta. They don't have the control to keep up with opponents, as we're in a meta that revolves around forward momentum, immov pots and very fast targets. And that we can't easily deal with bleeds and defiles in most builds - thus putting DK in general in a sort of limbo cyrodiil.
.
(I might be forgetting something, but I think I covered most of what went on in the meeting here)
.
And as far as the project goes: I'm working on sending ZoS a more detailed feedback document regarding DKs by Thrusday. I'll write up the initial document, but I plan on linking it here so everyone can read and give their input together so I can add or change things before I send it over. Your input here is very important, so we can tailor a accurate and descriptive feedback medium for the devs. I'll be linking the doc everytime I change something so that you guys can also give your opinion on everything. Then I'll be sending the document by Thursday, hopefully giving them enough time to apply some changes before PTS 3 and 4.

Sigh, Wrobel is really something. Since when were mDKs on par with other classes as far as DPS goes? Are they pulling 10k on dummies on each classes or something? And since when were DKs sustain gods enough that they can take another sustain nerf? Heavy attack meta is not fun and Wrobel clearly thinks it is fun. Sigh... why even bother with this game.

Oh and, those who think mDK is a strong PvP class, just wait and see when you have played the class for a while.

Wrobel believes if you want a light attack rotation then just spec into sustain. It doesn't matter that other classes can do both without any sacrifice.

... man tell me you are joking.

John_Falstaff

@Onefrkncrzypope , @Quantum_V , thank you for the information. Can't say I disagree with the points made.

The overall feeling is depressing though, and I feel like joining the choir of voices chanting that Wrobel along with the whole combat team is not qualified for the job. Maybe it's time to jump the ship; if dev team thinks all's good and dandy, there's no point waiting for any improvement and playing bleak class and handicapped race while waiting for better future.

Galalin

In my line of work I come fully prepared before a meeting not scrambling to throw something together after the fact. I understand RL issues and this is not paying position but ppl are relying on class reps to provide detailed feedback to the dev's so that they can address our concerns in time sensitive period.

Onefrkncrzypope

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Onefrkncrzypope , @Quantum_V , thank you for the information. Can't say I disagree with the points made.

The overall feeling is depressing though, and I feel like joining the choir of voices chanting that Wrobel along with the whole combat team is not qualified for the job. Maybe it's time to jump the ship; if dev team thinks all's good and dandy, there's no point waiting for any improvement and playing bleak class and handicapped race while waiting for better future.

Before joining that wagon. Try to think what would be a buff small enough to keep said class not op but large enough to please the players of class. Same goes in an opposite manner with nerfs. I mean I'm not questioning thier abilities but the game is a large complex system of equations. That a small change to one set might completely Nerf three classes and buff the crap out of one. I think they are coders and art majors, this is thier first game. They already admitted they needed help by implementing the rep system. Just understand we are all on this struggle bus together. They are just driving.

Biggest thing is that they view this game more than a job and they don't want it to end yet. When that changes, we can call foul

Onefrkncrzypope

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Quantum_V , any insights on the yesterday's meeting? Share, give us some hope. ^^

quoted from the discord:

Hey @everyone!

Just want to quickly give you all some insight on the DK part of the meeting we had today and ask you guys for some help with a small project I'll work on tomorrow.

Firstly, about the meeting. Sadly real life got in the way and I had to go before the meeting formally finished, yet I did get the DK points across - yet not in the depth I wanted due to my irl time restriction. As far as stamDKs go I basically talked about how stamDKs felt very underwhelmed with the changes. Reducing the cost of very cheap skills doesn't really help their sustain, and the passive only works on bow abilities, which is a weapon choice that stamDKs don't go after as it doesn't fit their playstyle, specially in PvP. I talked about the general disappointment revolving noxious; still very difficult to land, damage is very low and provides a rather useless secondary effect in the stamDK aresenal. I also told them that the damage should be buffed to atleast equate its old damage before the changes to passives, but in reality this specific skill needs a lot more to be viable.

I mentioned the fact that core pain points weren't addressed at all regarding stamDKs. They still have no poison synergy and far from enough morphs to complement their kit. I asked Wrobel if we could expect some stamina skills in the near future, it seems like the questions was evaded a bit, but I picked up a 'no' from his part (might be wrong though)
.
As far as mDKs I talked about the whip change and tried to emphasize as much as I could the fact that mDKs really can't take another sustain nerf. Wrobel said that their DPS is on par with other classes, but they do have to fit in more heavy attacks in their rotation (from their testing). I brought up that whip is unreliable as it is, missing more often than not in PvP scenarios - which equates into a pretty considerable sustain nerf on whip. I told them about embers and whip still being very unreliable when it comes to hitting targets from my testing, mostly due to swift (which he confirmed is getting looked into btw). I also talked about how the core issues revolving magdk is the way they currently fit in the meta. They don't have the control to keep up with opponents, as we're in a meta that revolves around forward momentum, immov pots and very fast targets. And that we can't easily deal with bleeds and defiles in most builds - thus putting DK in general in a sort of limbo cyrodiil.
.
(I might be forgetting something, but I think I covered most of what went on in the meeting here)
.
And as far as the project goes: I'm working on sending ZoS a more detailed feedback document regarding DKs by Thrusday. I'll write up the initial document, but I plan on linking it here so everyone can read and give their input together so I can add or change things before I send it over. Your input here is very important, so we can tailor a accurate and descriptive feedback medium for the devs. I'll be linking the doc everytime I change something so that you guys can also give your opinion on everything. Then I'll be sending the document by Thursday, hopefully giving them enough time to apply some changes before PTS 3 and 4.

Sigh, Wrobel is really something. Since when were mDKs on par with other classes as far as DPS goes? Are they pulling 10k on dummies on each classes or something? And since when were DKs sustain gods enough that they can take another sustain nerf? Heavy attack meta is not fun and Wrobel clearly thinks it is fun. Sigh... why even bother with this game.

Oh and, those who think mDK is a strong PvP class, just wait and see when you have played the class for a while.

Wrobel believes if you want a light attack rotation then just spec into sustain. It doesn't matter that other classes can do both without any sacrifice.

... man tell me you are joking.

That's the rumor train yes. Grain of salt.

Quantum_V

Galalin wrote: »

In my line of work I come fully prepared before a meeting not scrambling to throw something together after the fact. I understand RL issues and this is not paying position but ppl are relying on class reps to provide detailed feedback to the dev's so that they can address our concerns in time sensitive period.

Hey, man!

I did come prepared in the sense of having a document near me with the subjects I wanted to talk about. I simply had to ask to talk a little bit earlier so I could get my points across.

I did have to stop, which meant that I couldnt go into as much detail as I hoped, hence the reason im working on that document I talked about.

Have a good one!

Carbonised

Quantum_V wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

In my line of work I come fully prepared before a meeting not scrambling to throw something together after the fact. I understand RL issues and this is not paying position but ppl are relying on class reps to provide detailed feedback to the dev's so that they can address our concerns in time sensitive period.

Hey, man!

I did come prepared in the sense of having a document near me with the subjects I wanted to talk about. I simply had to ask to talk a little bit earlier so I could get my points across.

I did have to stop, which meant that I couldnt go into as much detail as I hoped, hence the reason im working on that document I talked about.

Have a good one!

@Quantum_V

With all the stamdks having made a lot of posts about their issues, that doesn't mean the magdk side is "fine", or anywhere near to it. What with all the many, many nerfs to DK CCs and power lash in particular, there's still loads to work on regarding magdks, in pvp and pve both. In PvE particularly, there's still absolutely zero compensation to magdks for taking up melee spots, and having to deal with all the difficulties of being a melee based pve spec. Which makes it even more tragicomic and hillarious when the devs clearly try and balance powerlash against ranged classes procs (merciless/frags) that not only are far ranged and also ten times easier to proc than lash, and have no cooldown, and I could just go on and on ..

Onefrkncrzypope

Carbonised wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

In my line of work I come fully prepared before a meeting not scrambling to throw something together after the fact. I understand RL issues and this is not paying position but ppl are relying on class reps to provide detailed feedback to the dev's so that they can address our concerns in time sensitive period.

Hey, man!

I did come prepared in the sense of having a document near me with the subjects I wanted to talk about. I simply had to ask to talk a little bit earlier so I could get my points across.

I did have to stop, which meant that I couldnt go into as much detail as I hoped, hence the reason im working on that document I talked about.

Have a good one!

@Quantum_V

With all the stamdks having made a lot of posts about their issues, that doesn't mean the magdk side is "fine", or anywhere near to it. What with all the many, many nerfs to DK CCs and power lash in particular, there's still loads to work on regarding magdks, in pvp and pve both. In PvE particularly, there's still absolutely zero compensation to magdks for taking up melee spots, and having to deal with all the difficulties of being a melee based pve spec. Which makes it even more tragicomic and hillarious when the devs clearly try and balance powerlash against ranged classes procs (merciless/frags) that not only are far ranged and also ten times easier to proc than lash, and have no cooldown, and I could just go on and on ..

Here is another thing about mag dks. So currently ZoS put forward that they want a representation of all classes in trials but "not required". We have 8 spots and 10 specs of DDs. The way I saw what they mean(before the warhorn rework) is that they want every legacy class to have a spot and have the warden to be an adequate fill in. Makes sense, right? Here is the problem. Melee mag. Melee is cramped and has all the mechs(usually) and reserved for the highest dps(stamblade usually). With the shield change and melee mag will be in a lot more "danger" than before. They hit for less, they are squishier, no execute, sustain problems(so bad that Spell sym is in the rotation), and doesn't add anything special to the group.

This is the same problem with the warden. Lets look at how they are trying to include a warden into groups. Currently warden are mostly welcome as tanks as templars, in my opinion, has a better healing kit. The OT will be warden and run vines and place it on MT and that will be the end of the inclusion of warden just like how engulfing flame is slotted by a tank to replace the utility of a mDK DD in group.

One skill in both cases completely remove the need of a mDK DD or a warden healer.

Quantum_V

Carbonised wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

In my line of work I come fully prepared before a meeting not scrambling to throw something together after the fact. I understand RL issues and this is not paying position but ppl are relying on class reps to provide detailed feedback to the dev's so that they can address our concerns in time sensitive period.

Hey, man!

I did come prepared in the sense of having a document near me with the subjects I wanted to talk about. I simply had to ask to talk a little bit earlier so I could get my points across.

I did have to stop, which meant that I couldnt go into as much detail as I hoped, hence the reason im working on that document I talked about.

Have a good one!

@Quantum_V

With all the stamdks having made a lot of posts about their issues, that doesn't mean the magdk side is "fine", or anywhere near to it. What with all the many, many nerfs to DK CCs and power lash in particular, there's still loads to work on regarding magdks, in pvp and pve both. In PvE particularly, there's still absolutely zero compensation to magdks for taking up melee spots, and having to deal with all the difficulties of being a melee based pve spec. Which makes it even more tragicomic and hillarious when the devs clearly try and balance powerlash against ranged classes procs (merciless/frags) that not only are far ranged and also ten times easier to proc than lash, and have no cooldown, and I could just go on and on ..

Yeah, man, I totally agree. I mean, most of what you said was addressed in the meeting.. I did make a comparison between the different procs. Are you following the DK discord?

Thanks for your concern!

Savos_Saren

Quantum_V wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

In my line of work I come fully prepared before a meeting not scrambling to throw something together after the fact. I understand RL issues and this is not paying position but ppl are relying on class reps to provide detailed feedback to the dev's so that they can address our concerns in time sensitive period.

Hey, man!

I did come prepared in the sense of having a document near me with the subjects I wanted to talk about. I simply had to ask to talk a little bit earlier so I could get my points across.

I did have to stop, which meant that I couldnt go into as much detail as I hoped, hence the reason im working on that document I talked about.

Have a good one!

I could be wrong- but I don't think ESO (a recreational video game) is @Quantum_V 's "line of work". He's just another player who's been chosen to be our class representative. Cut him some slack.

Edited: I needed to leave out stuff about how some players can be basement dwelling neckbeards who think this game is life.

devilsTear

Quantum_V wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

In my line of work I come fully prepared before a meeting not scrambling to throw something together after the fact. I understand RL issues and this is not paying position but ppl are relying on class reps to provide detailed feedback to the dev's so that they can address our concerns in time sensitive period.

Hey, man!

I did come prepared in the sense of having a document near me with the subjects I wanted to talk about. I simply had to ask to talk a little bit earlier so I could get my points across.

I did have to stop, which meant that I couldnt go into as much detail as I hoped, hence the reason im working on that document I talked about.

Have a good one!

@Quantum_V

With all the stamdks having made a lot of posts about their issues, that doesn't mean the magdk side is "fine", or anywhere near to it. What with all the many, many nerfs to DK CCs and power lash in particular, there's still loads to work on regarding magdks, in pvp and pve both. In PvE particularly, there's still absolutely zero compensation to magdks for taking up melee spots, and having to deal with all the difficulties of being a melee based pve spec. Which makes it even more tragicomic and hillarious when the devs clearly try and balance powerlash against ranged classes procs (merciless/frags) that not only are far ranged and also ten times easier to proc than lash, and have no cooldown, and I could just go on and on ..

Yeah, man, I totally agree. I mean, most of what you said was addressed in the meeting.. I did make a comparison between the different procs. Are you following the DK discord?

Thanks for your concern!

Is this discord available for everyone?

Onefrkncrzypope

devilsTear wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

In my line of work I come fully prepared before a meeting not scrambling to throw something together after the fact. I understand RL issues and this is not paying position but ppl are relying on class reps to provide detailed feedback to the dev's so that they can address our concerns in time sensitive period.

Hey, man!

I did come prepared in the sense of having a document near me with the subjects I wanted to talk about. I simply had to ask to talk a little bit earlier so I could get my points across.

I did have to stop, which meant that I couldnt go into as much detail as I hoped, hence the reason im working on that document I talked about.

Have a good one!

@Quantum_V

With all the stamdks having made a lot of posts about their issues, that doesn't mean the magdk side is "fine", or anywhere near to it. What with all the many, many nerfs to DK CCs and power lash in particular, there's still loads to work on regarding magdks, in pvp and pve both. In PvE particularly, there's still absolutely zero compensation to magdks for taking up melee spots, and having to deal with all the difficulties of being a melee based pve spec. Which makes it even more tragicomic and hillarious when the devs clearly try and balance powerlash against ranged classes procs (merciless/frags) that not only are far ranged and also ten times easier to proc than lash, and have no cooldown, and I could just go on and on ..

Yeah, man, I totally agree. I mean, most of what you said was addressed in the meeting.. I did make a comparison between the different procs. Are you following the DK discord?

Thanks for your concern!

Is this discord available for everyone?

yes

LonePirate

Wow! There are not enough face palm gifs available that can adequately reflect those Wroebel comments. I am surprised he made them in the company of people who do not work for ZOS given how shockingly embarrassing they are for him. He clearly has no grasp of the issues confronted by DKs and certainly has never taken a Mag DK into Cyrodiil or Battlegrounds. I honestly don’t know how ZOS has not transferred him to a position more befitting his skill set, whatever it happens to be because it sure does not include combat. My boss would fire me for incompetence if I made an equivalent statement to Wroebel’s in my line of work.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom I beg you. Please use ESO Live to send Wroebel into PVP situations on the live servers with a Mag DK. Prove me wrong when I say he knows NOTHING about the class and its mountain of challenges. If he is going to make monstrously uninformed statements like that, then he should be given the opportunity to prove they are true. Otherwise it is just insulting how ZOS has treated its DK players.

Onefrkncrzypope

LonePirate wrote: »

Wow! There are not enough face palm gifs available that can adequately reflect those Wroebel comments. I am surprised he made them in the company of people who do not work for ZOS given how shockingly embarrassing they are for him. He clearly has no grasp of the issues confronted by DKs and certainly has never taken a Mag DK into Cyrodiil or Battlegrounds. I honestly don’t know how ZOS has not transferred him to a position more befitting his skill set, whatever it happens to be because it sure does not include combat. My boss would fire me for incompetence if I made an equivalent statement to Wroebel’s in my line of work.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom I beg you. Please use ESO Live to send Wroebel into PVP situations on the live servers with a Mag DK. Prove me wrong when I say he knows NOTHING about the class and its mountain of challenges. If he is going to make monstrously uninformed statements like that, then he should be given the opportunity to prove they are true. Otherwise it is just insulting how ZOS has treated its DK players.

what is the gem in those quotes is that he said a NB tank can tank a lot of enemies because of the change to mirage..... alot of enemies =/= AOEs. Again just a rumor but dang.

Suryoyo

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Quantum_V , any insights on the yesterday's meeting? Share, give us some hope. ^^

quoted from the discord:

As far as mDKs I talked about the whip change and tried to emphasize as much as I could the fact that mDKs really can't take another sustain nerf. Wrobel said that their DPS is on par with other classes, but they do have to fit in more heavy attacks in their rotation (from their testing). I brought up that whip is unreliable as it is, missing more often than not in PvP scenarios - which equates into a pretty considerable sustain nerf on whip. I told them about embers and whip still being very unreliable when it comes to hitting targets from my testing, mostly due to swift (which he confirmed is getting looked into btw). I also talked about how the core issues revolving magdk is the way they currently fit in the meta. They don't have the control to keep up with opponents, as we're in a meta that revolves around forward momentum, immov pots and very fast targets. And that we can't easily deal with bleeds and defiles in most builds - thus putting DK in general in a sort of limbo cyrodiil.
.

If magDK should incorporate more heavy attack, then why buff Ash cloud ?We'll do even less HA with this buff. So I guess by PTS 3 or 4, or next update, we'll see additional nerf ?

Forcing HA meta si disgusting, nothing more, nothing less. It should be in par with LA meta, but forcing it, I just don't have words.

Onefrkncrzypope

Suryoyo wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Quantum_V , any insights on the yesterday's meeting? Share, give us some hope. ^^

quoted from the discord:

As far as mDKs I talked about the whip change and tried to emphasize as much as I could the fact that mDKs really can't take another sustain nerf. Wrobel said that their DPS is on par with other classes, but they do have to fit in more heavy attacks in their rotation (from their testing). I brought up that whip is unreliable as it is, missing more often than not in PvP scenarios - which equates into a pretty considerable sustain nerf on whip. I told them about embers and whip still being very unreliable when it comes to hitting targets from my testing, mostly due to swift (which he confirmed is getting looked into btw). I also talked about how the core issues revolving magdk is the way they currently fit in the meta. They don't have the control to keep up with opponents, as we're in a meta that revolves around forward momentum, immov pots and very fast targets. And that we can't easily deal with bleeds and defiles in most builds - thus putting DK in general in a sort of limbo cyrodiil.
.

If magDK should incorporate more heavy attack, then why buff Ash cloud ?We'll do even less HA with this buff. So I guess by PTS 3 or 4, or next update, we'll see additional nerf ?

Forcing HA meta si disgusting, nothing more, nothing less. It should be in par with LA meta, but forcing it, I just don't have words.

They will just tell you to invest in sustain

i.e sustain enchants and stuff

scipionumatia

@Quantum_V can you please link the discord channel invite? id love to join there and give assistance in your document