PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Dragonknights

The_Last_Titan

green balance restores the lesser pool, which pretty much ends up being the secondary resource.

I would say just make healing hands restore the opposite of the abilities cost.

everything's possible, lets make all skills restore the same resource they use and add an increased cost? I'm trying to work within the current parameters of what already exists in game, but sure don't let that hold them back, which i said a couple pages ago.

scipionumatia

to anyone who can answer it.
each class has two reps right? or is that out dated/mistaken info.
if thats the case is @Quantum_V stam or mag dk rep? and whos the other one?

Onefrkncrzypope

scipionumatia wrote: »

to anyone who can answer it.
each class has two reps right? or is that out dated/mistaken info.
if thats the case is @Quantum_V stam or mag dk rep? and whos the other one?

Quantum plays mDK, also the most vocal rep. I believe Tasear is the sDK rep. more reserved but is also concerned with dk.

NBrookus

scipionumatia wrote: »

to anyone who can answer it.
each class has two reps right? or is that out dated/mistaken info.
if thats the case is @ Quantum_V stam or mag dk rep? and whos the other one?

The reps are not class specific per se, but some obviously have more experience in certain classes.

Xvorg

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@cwp303b14_ESO
Mate we literally had a deletion of one skill which was changed into another i.e Flames of Oblivion.

Stone fist use to scale off of physical damage and it still was bad albeit it utilized magicka. I also doubt they'd drastically increase the damage in comparison to when it use to deal physical damage because that skill and it's morph is suppose to function as a utility skill rather than a damaging one, hence why I called for it's deletion.

I'm not for this "re-skin so my Stamina DK can use it notion" as I've stated consistently through-out the years of playing this game; Stamina DK needs it's own identity rather than being a copy pasted Magicka DK.

You're free to disagree with my notion but I'd rather there be a significant distinction between my Magicka DK and my Stamina DK (main character).

I don't understand what you are saying by asking for something that isn't a "re-skin" of mDK.

What other class has a completely different set of skills for stam?

Every stam class skill morph in the game has a mag morph as the other option.

The theme of the class as evidenced by the other skills and passives is a brawling melee fighter.

stone fist is a skill I don't see used at all by either mDK or sDK in part because it conflicts with another skill in the same tree and is conditional so it cannot be spammed.

A ranged, NO STUN, stam morph that increases damage the closer you are to the target fits:

1. The class theme
2. The context of the spell itself (this rock fist hits the hardest at point blank)
3. The addition of a semi ranged stam spammable thus useful to multiple builds
4. A great way to proc passives in Earthen Heart which is crucial to a stam playstyle
5. The creation of a unique conditional on a stam spammable that fits well with the class identity

Oh, and it sits extremely well with the new melee range passive in Draconic Power AND has a GREAT place in a movespeed meta

Honestly, it fits EVERY criteria I can think of including:

1. Ease of application
2. No potential problems that would be introduced if it had a CC component
3. Class theme
4. Skill theme
5. Easy to balance as it's just a damage number
6. Access to needed passives
7. Limited pushback from community since the skill is rarely utilized

If a skill in the earthen heart tree uses Stam and gives back Stam... Doesn't that sound strange? It probably wouldn't even return enough it would just make the Stam pool juggle a bit

Right this would be way out of whack with other classes. . .

Siphoning attacks costs magicka and gives back magicka.

Crystalized Shield costs magicka and gives back magicka.

The entire green balance tree costs magicka or stamina and restores magicka or stamina.

Restoring Aura costs magicka and returns magicka.

The entire offensive skills from the assasination tree cost magick/stamina and return magicka with a kill.

Endless Fury costs magicka and returns magicka with a kill.

Meteor costs ult and returns ult.

Clearly this mechanic is unprecedented.

I mean yeah those sustain skill are neat and all but helping hands gives a whopping 990 Stam back. To have your idea work it would need to be the cheapest spammable in the game. That's what I meant by a wiggle.

Only if you fail at basic math. Lets see we need to account for the passive stam return? I mean we couldn't just make the skill cost more, that would simply be too easy right?

Helping Hands isn't the passive you want from that line anyways. The ult return is completely underutilized by all dk's especially stam DK's because the skills cost too much magicka. Also the skills are not designed to be used at the rate to maximize the ult return passive.

Lastly its not my idea, it was never my idea. I am just pointing out the flaw in the argument that Helping Hands is what makes that idea not possible.

I made my original point that you also insulted on helping hands. So continue to just insult the opposition to your brilliant idea. Your right stam dks would love through rocks at people for their spamable. And don't mind the fact that they are using it for a healing dk. But yeah I mean totally failed basic math. Flame some more. Continue to be rude. Doesn't help your case.

I will repeat for those who cannot read: it's not my idea, it doesn't benefit me. Crushing Weapon weaves quite nicely with the bow, lacking a spammable outside the bow line isn't a problem anymore. Spammables outside the bow line do not work well with bow/bow, dot's work fine only because you lack dots and need them to fill a rotation, spammables do not scale with Hawk Eye and are very weak because of it.

Prior to this PTS on NB snipe parse could reach 48k+, while Crushing Weapon was hitting around 43k, precisely because of Hawk Eye scaling. NB's take advantage of Crushing Weapon weave significantly better than any other class, due to weaving interaction with Relentless Focus. Making Stone Giant a ranged spammable does not benefit bows without a complete restructure of Hawk Eye or making the skill massively OP for melee.

Your original point was a misguided as your current iteration. I don't know how people leveled up DK's and ignored the fact that they had an "Earthen Heart" tree? Rocks are as much a part of being a DK as fire, it has been there from the beginning.

Where did the healing argument arise from and what does it have to do with the discussion of whether or not a spammable could fit within the Earthen Heart tree? I realize I may have come off a little harsh, but seriously this is just diverting from the subject.

Regardless of your idea or not, you took the banner and was far to aggressive in your response to expect any other type of response. The first post that you stated in sarcasm showed skills dedicated to sustain on other classes. None of them are spammables with a direct return on an attribute pool for damage. Since you choose that as you argument, I countered that in order for stonefist to return any stam it must be cheaper that the helping hands passive return of 990. Now if we are talking just to view it as a cost reduction for the skill, it is pretty convoluted as a cost reduction but sure lets go with that. Regardless you used sarcasm and insults. That caused bounce back. Be more clear and objective next time.

Most likely that any character that is lacking a relevant spammable will never receive any in the near future. ZoS thinks they solved that by introducing imbue weapon and its morphs. They are done. Everyone can use it, it hits hard, has some juicy second effects, not hard to get. They are probably done with the spammable discussion.

Honestly unfortunately with sustain as well. They believe that the sustain issues are solved with this patch. Any other issues, is just invest in sustain enchants or traits.

Finally you confusion on why everyone thinks earthen heart is a non-combative skill tree is because that definition is set by ZoS. It was defined as such awhile ago. There is already a damage skill in that line as well and putting anymore would contradict their new definition of that tree.

Ok it was my idea and I see why ZoS cannot make of a bad and unused skill something more useful.

the 990 stam return is tricky. It would act as an indirect cost reduction but only in that skill, while providing the regular return on magicka based skills. Is a cost reduction on a spammable so bad? Imho putting the skill at 3K would make it an interesting option.

Regarding the theme of the Class, do not forget that the class is called DragonKNIGHT. If you look around the class, there's little about the second part of the name. That's my main complaint against the change to poison, because poison is not a knight based dmg type (not even a Dragon based theme), but the decision was made, so we have to stick with it.

As Toc mentioned, the main spammable skills of the stamblades goes in the tanking line, one of the spammables of the mageblade goes into the healing line while the main spammable of the templar goes into the tanking line. I don't see why the spammable cannot go into the healing line based on that.

Sure, there can be an original solution for sDKs, but let's be honest, there was an original solution for NBs and Templars to replace Haste and Sparks and it took them 4 years to balance them. Do we have enough time?

Finally, if you want to make this stam punch akin the (lore breaking) identity of DK, just make it a poison based skill. That would give you a reson to use Swamp Raider without having to slot a bow as main weapon. Even better, take away it's stun and give it major defile for 4 secs, so you are not forced to run S/B or use Durok'sto get that debuff, making your dot's a little more efficient, and you will have a ranged morph that heals, and a melee morph that decreases healing.

Quantum_V

Virtually no changes to DKs on PTS 3... Worrisome

Minno

Quantum_V wrote: »

Virtually no changes to DKs on PTS 3... Worrisome

Yea doesn't look too good for you guys. Yet they decided to mess with swift and impreg set while nerfing templar blazing shield which we all said they didn't need dev resources dedicated to changing lol.

StShoot

Who would have thought more nerfs for dks !!! I love you zos we were bad boys we deserved to be punished

Ocelot9x

Still no love for stam dk... That cost reduction on two skill used every 10 seconds is HUGE damn ,everything we needed

Kanar

Trapping webs has the reduced cost now. Let's convince them to at least fix the synergy, it would be good then.

SilverPaws

Every pts patch notes released, i want to play less and less...

Suryoyo

The range buff should be reverted, they're not inline with what a DK should be: a melee class, they better implement more incentives to play melee. But no, let's give range (for what ? we have bows or staves c'mon...) nerf flame lash, add cost, reduce poison damage... Only ash cloud was welcomed but not that much but hey power lash is used in PvP so magDK sustain will be a bit worse considering that ash cloud is not that used...
Overall useless patch, only sorcs memes can influence balancing. We can suggest whatever, nothing will change.

StamWhipCultist

we must cry more, we must learn from the best crybabies of ESO! All to sorc thread and observe and learn the sorcery of crying like there is no tomorrow!

OrphanHelgen

Quantum_V wrote: »

Virtually no changes to DKs on PTS 3... Worrisome

Ye we got a bunch of changes aka nerfs

OrphanHelgen

Power Lash (morph): The Power Lash special attack is no longer free, and now costs half the amount of a regular Flame Lash.
Developer Comment:
This puts the ability on par with other types of proc abilities, such as Crystal Frags.

2 patches later:

Crystal Fragments:
Increased the damage of the proc from this ability to 20% from 10%.

Xvorg

ok, full heavy attack build with torugs + infused lit staff + oblivion glyphs + Knight slayer/Sload's + skoria

A no brain build for a no brain game.

OrphanHelgen

The venomous claw damage do not make up for the lack of stats compared to what other classes have.

Relequen still destroys other play styles.

Carbonised

Quantum_V wrote: »

Virtually no changes to DKs on PTS 3... Worrisome

I thought the same. Literally zero response to any of the class issues we have brought up in this thread, and in a billion threads before that. But oh, look, another nerf to a skill no one uses in PvP (chains) and another nerf to obsidian shield, which by now is nothing by a glorified major mending buff that procs class passives. The shield might as well be made of vapor after all the nerfs it has sustained by now.

Why is it that after years they still refuse to adress the core issues with the class, but just tweak numbers every patch?

Why is there still no compensation for magdk for neither PvE or PvP for being forced into melee range?

LonePirate

I still want to see Wroebel take a Mag DK into Cyrodiil on the live server. If he thinks the class is competitive, then by all means, let him prove it. Otherwise, he is gaslighting us with such statements.

Note: I do not think he will ever play a Mag DK in Cyrodiil on one of the live servers; but if he does, I fully anticipate many quick deaths and an inability to hold his own or stand his ground when confronted with an enemy player, especially one specced for Stamina.

Soundinfinite

I have a question.

Doesn't the Stone Giant Morph go against ZOS stance on Stuns+Damage?

I mean I get that they haven't done anything to Dizzying swing either, as it clearly goes against this rule too, so I just figured they'd get around to them...but now it seems that they aren't going to touch either one.

On my MDK I tooltip around 6,200 magic damage with the skill...which IS NOTHING, paltry, awful especially with the cost attached (3,240 Magicka...WOW).

But then there is "If you successfully stun the target deals 100% more damage."

Now my skill is getting somewhere becasue it means it does 12,400 magic damage. I've tested this and gotten it to Crit as high as 17k damage. But ONLY IF the enemy IS STUNNED.

So it deals and actual punch ONLY when stunning. Which seems to be in exact opposition to their intent on stuns with damage components.

Is it simply because the Dragonknight is forced into melee ranged builds so a RANGED attack and stun are pointless to do anything with?

Non-the-less, it bothers me.

I feel that it should read differently.

As is, the skill has no use in PVE. As the most magicka starved class in the game, using a skill that does such paltry damage for its cost its a complete loss. Especially since BOSS's can never be stunned, meaning the bonus damage cannot ever be reached when trying to burn dungeons and trials.

However, it can have use in a PVP environment. Not ideal because of the "up-close and personal" requirements of a Dragonknight, but it can be useful on targets that are escaping and out of reach of other toolkit skills. ( I mean it does at least cost less than Reach).

However, this is where you get the major issue, as now in the PVP environment-the only place the skill has true use-you are doing MORE damage while stunning.

I scratch my head....

Not only do I feel the base damage of the skill deserves a small boost...somewhere in the 10%-20% range but that the defining sentence should read:

"If the target CAN NOT be STUNNED deals 100% more damage"

This would then give it a PVE use, especially if you grant it a 10%-20% damage buff. And it means the skill does a decent job no matter what its up against.

For example, if it received the maximum 20% boost to damage my tooltip would read around 7,400 damage. Still super weak BUT that would be WITH a stun.

So in PVP when I'm trying to stop someone from escaping, I can throw the skill, stun them, and do some weak damage.

However, IF the player cannot be stunned and they keep running, I can actually take a dent out of their health as it will deal 14,800 damage (Before battlespirit) but no stun and before criting.

This puts the skill in Crystal Shard/ Shalk territory...skills where their stun was removed.

IN PVE I CAN NOW SLOT IT AS A RANGED SKILL...again with the power of Crystal SHard/SHalk...as examples. Since bosses cannot be stuned, it will always deal the 100% bonus damage against them. The cost is already in line with Shards/Shalk.....though the instant proc Crystal shard costs much less and is the skill most used and with a 10%-20% damage boost, the damage would also be in-line with these skills as well.

Still it would give ranged DK something to fold into the rotation for more DPS output while also changing the skill to work in the ZOS current thinking of low damage+Stun vs High Damage no stun they claim to be designing around.

What do people think on the topic...if at all?

Xvorg

LonePirate wrote: »

I still want to see Wroebel take a Mag DK into Cyrodiil on the live server. If he thinks the class is competitive, then by all means, let him prove it. Otherwise, he is gaslighting us with such statements.

Note: I do not think he will ever play a Mag DK in Cyrodiil on one of the live servers; but if he does, I fully anticipate many quick deaths and an inability to hold his own or stand his ground when confronted with an enemy player, especially one specced for Stamina.

I think if he does that, he will go duelling, losing anyway xD

No idea what are they doing with the class, but the PTS cycle is quite annoying. Week one, a "buff" and a nerf, week 2 nothing, week 3 a nerf. No compensation, no explanation, nothing. Just hate.

Quantum_V

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Power Lash (morph): The Power Lash special attack is no longer free, and now costs half the amount of a regular Flame Lash.
Developer Comment:
This puts the ability on par with other types of proc abilities, such as Crystal Frags.

2 patches later:

Crystal Fragments:
Increased the damage of the proc from this ability to 20% from 10%.

Thanks for this.

I told them in PTS 1 that adding a cost to whip and justifying it with an argument that originates in another class (magsorc) makes no sense. Both classes and skills work completely different and one shouldn't be used to balance the other.

Yet, if that's the way they want to approach changes, then this is only fair. Taking this to them rn.

OrphanHelgen

Quantum_V wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Power Lash (morph): The Power Lash special attack is no longer free, and now costs half the amount of a regular Flame Lash.
Developer Comment:
This puts the ability on par with other types of proc abilities, such as Crystal Frags.

2 patches later:

Crystal Fragments:
Increased the damage of the proc from this ability to 20% from 10%.

Thanks for this.

I told them in PTS 1 that adding a cost to whip and justifying it with an argument that originates in another class (magsorc) makes no sense. Both classes and skills work completely different and one shouldn't be used to balance the other.

Yet, if that's the way they want to approach changes, then this is only fair. Taking this to them rn.

Knowing the devs correct, solution to this would be to not add dev comments

Carbonised

Quantum_V wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Power Lash (morph): The Power Lash special attack is no longer free, and now costs half the amount of a regular Flame Lash.
Developer Comment:
This puts the ability on par with other types of proc abilities, such as Crystal Frags.

2 patches later:

Crystal Fragments:
Increased the damage of the proc from this ability to 20% from 10%.

Thanks for this.

I told them in PTS 1 that adding a cost to whip and justifying it with an argument that originates in another class (magsorc) makes no sense. Both classes and skills work completely different and one shouldn't be used to balance the other.

Yet, if that's the way they want to approach changes, then this is only fair. Taking this to them rn.

Or how about the fact that proc'ing frags is infinitely easier than proc'ing lash, not to mention frags can be cast from afar while lash is melee only and I could just keep on going ..

NBrookus

Quantum_V wrote: »

Virtually no changes to DKs on PTS 3... Worrisome

Indeed. Nerf to Lash sustain, nerf to Obsidian, nerf to chains. Because magDKs had such awesome sustain and mobility, those needed to be nerfed. /s

Microscopic buff to stamDK. And no fixes for the interaction between Armor and Eclipse or useless passives.

Onefrkncrzypope

One more week.... the last week usually is just a waste of a read. Welp see y'all in December for yet another 3 weeks of wasted words.

Quantum_V

There will be 2 more PTS from what i've heard...

IZZEFlameLash

Quantum_V wrote: »

There will be 2 more PTS from what i've heard...

And there won't be a DK changes from now on... really, I am not sure what this vendetta against defense against absurdly high burst and classes like DK that are far more oriented toward defense is really.

zParallaxz

Quantum_V wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Power Lash (morph): The Power Lash special attack is no longer free, and now costs half the amount of a regular Flame Lash.
Developer Comment:
This puts the ability on par with other types of proc abilities, such as Crystal Frags.

2 patches later:

Crystal Fragments:
Increased the damage of the proc from this ability to 20% from 10%.

Thanks for this.

I told them in PTS 1 that adding a cost to whip and justifying it with an argument that originates in another class (magsorc) makes no sense. Both classes and skills work completely different and one shouldn't be used to balance the other.

Yet, if that's the way they want to approach changes, then this is only fair. Taking this to them rn.

So what happens if they don’t add the damage to compensate.

TrinityBreaker

Yo can we get Wrobel fired? Or at least demoted? Cause I swear to god his decisions may one day kill this game.