PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

Ashanne · September 2018

Can anyone confirm if they are going to cap each of the shields to 40%? or stacked they can't go over 40% of health?

Maulkin · September 2018

katorga wrote: »

…. then why on earth would I play magSorc? For Streak? Or because my shield is cheaper?

To be honest. Nightblade is just better than any other class, magicka or stam. The class passives are really, really good. It has everything necessary built into the class...sustain, healing, damage, armor/spell pen debuffs, multiple Cc options, good ultimates, a class spammable, an execute. So you are not limited by either weapons, armor type, or sets to fill in the gaps.

On top of all of that you get cloak and shades, which are totally unique abilities that no other class has.

You could make the same argument on why choose a sorc over a nightblade even before the most recent PTS.

Easy question, easy answer.

Because Sorc was a more mobile version with equally good survivability mostly thanks to those 20k shields stacks. It lacked in AoE damage and ability to brawl as a trade-off but that was a trade I was happy to make in exchange for better kiting.

However Sorc's kiting ability is highly diminished with only an 8-9k total shield when it has no other defence. So survivability will dip below most other classes in fights and you'll be just a running bunny unable to live with the damage during the fights. You'll just be good at kill-stealing in Xv1s and ganging up on people, while being the weakest link in any even numbers fight.

So might as well roll Magblade now

RMerlin · September 2018

One thing I'm now confused about - is the 40% cap for the complete stack (of multiple shields), or just per shield?

katorga · September 2018

Because Sorc was a more mobile version with equally good survivability mostly thanks to those 20k shields stacks

Really, more mobile? I sure see a lot of forum posts how streak is outpaced by swift+major expedition and gap closers. Shades lets you instantly port to a known location for a longer distance, and most players actually lose you, and have visually look for you. Even stam sorc's movement speed advantage has been neutralized now that everyone can reach speed cap.

I do agree that Sorc is probably not viable, and 100% not optimal, for pvp next patch, even after backing out the cast time. They have had the same basic build/playstyle for 4 years. Between the stream of nerfs, and not synergizing well with changes to the game, they are out dated.

NBrookus · September 2018

RMerlin wrote: »

One thing I'm now confused about - is the 40% cap for the complete stack (of multiple shields), or just per shield?

We don't know yet.

Maulkin · September 2018

katorga wrote: »

Because Sorc was a more mobile version with equally good survivability mostly thanks to those 20k shields stacks

Really, more mobile? I sure see a lot of forum posts how streak is outpaced by swift+major expedition and gap closers. Shades lets you instantly port to a known location for a longer distance, and most players actually lose you, and have visually look for you. Even stam sorc's movement speed advantage has been neutralized now that everyone can reach speed cap.

I do agree that Sorc is probably not viable, and 100% not optimal, for pvp next patch, even after backing out the cast time. They have had the same basic build/playstyle for 4 years. Between the stream of nerfs, and not synergizing well with changes to the game, they are out dated.

Yes, really, more mobile. More mobile than magblades at least, which is what you asked.Is it more mobile than stambuilds on swift? No, but then stam builds are different playstyle altogether and they are generally melee builds with very few exceptions (snipers).

If I want to play a melee stam build, I'll play that. But if I want to play a ranged magicka kiting style, magBlade will be superior to magSorc from next patch, which wasn't the case till now. On top of being superior/capable melee magicka brawler, AoE damage dealer and stealth bomber.

BretonMage · September 2018

I really appreciate that ZOS listens to feedback, though of course I agree that cast time for shields was never the best idea to begin with.

I am not at end game yet, so I cannot personally corroborate that 40% of HP is too little, but it does sound too little. With max shield as it stands currently, I can get wiped out with 2 hits by some world bosses. So I can imagine that 40% HP shields will easily let us get one-shotted.

Also, if the concern is with shield-stacking, wouldn't it make more sense to deal directly with shield-stacking, instead of nerfing shields? Isn't there some kind of mechanism ZOS can implement whereby applying a shield while another shield is active will cancel the effect of the first shield?

Dutchessx · September 2018

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

Dutchessx wrote: »

Ummm... think you are missing some items under the category of sorcerer. Check out this link for your missing information.

Yeah just Major Major Vitality per TeAlry's video at 1:09.0. I skimmed through his video since it is so long, but I think that's the only thing missing from the table?

@BaylorCorvette
My apologies I misread your post initially.

ruikkarikun · September 2018

40% is pretty low. I hope they do some tests or after next week someone on PTS will test it, and maybe they can increase it a little bit.

bardx86 · September 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

First off, thanks for at least listening. Capping shields on Max HP is pretty brutal but certainly better than having cast times.

My honest, non-sarcastic, question is:
If shield-stacking is effectively removed due to this cap on shield-size and any LA build can throw on Dampen Magic and basically hit the cap at 25k HP, then what exactly is the special defence of magSorc?

The class has terrible hots/passive heals and terrible damage mitigation or avoidance tools. Let me rephrase the question in a way it gives some perspective....

If a MagBlade can throw on Dampen Magic and get same shield size as MagSorc all the while having:
heals from many passive heals (Refreshing Path, Swallow Soul, Siphoning Attacks)

free Major Resolve/Major Ward from passives (which makes shields better)

25% AoE damage reduction from Double Take.

the ability to Cloak out, make attacks miss and suppress DoTs

high Minor Maim uptime on targets due to Fear/Shadow Image

…. then why on earth would I play magSorc? For Streak? Or because my shield is cheaper?

I'll be honest, I like the intention with this change and I don't want to overthrow it. But something needs to change with MagSorc. Make Blood Magic a much better heal, add Major Evasion to Boundless Storm, maybe remove Conjured Ward and give a different defensive skill while making "cheaper shields by x %" a passive.

Something, anything, to boost survivability without relying only on spamming shields.

good point

JadonSky · September 2018

Well good on ZOS for listening and removing the cast time. For that, as promised, my subscription has been renewed. Now i do think 40% may be too low but idk until we can test to see how it really affects the play. But I still think the sorc needs some better self healing ability.

Derra · September 2018

I feel we´re getting to a workable solution.

What´s missing now is the previously mentioned feedback on cage (it should now deal dmg when it connects - not when the stun lasts its full duration).

Other minor tweaks that would be highly desireable could be:

- Boundless storm - cost reduction and maybe increase of the range to 7m (seriously why does this ability cost 4050 magica base when templar focus costs 1890 and dragonknights spiked armor 2700 - both unarguably way stronger)
- powersurge - make it heal for half the value when not critting (this would specifically benefit nonCP sorc)

maybe:

- convert part of dark conversions healing to a hot aswell (like the resource mechanic)
- bloodmagic make it heal on any sorcerer ability hitting a target - not only dark magic (excluding pets and petabilities as that would be overpowered)

Kagukan · September 2018

For me I think the new changes will work. I feel much better now that my mag sorc will live on.

cpuScientist · September 2018

OKOKOK this is rich. So we are still stuck as shield stackers. But a weaker version. SOOOOOOO ok ok ok ok. We have a worst stun than we did during Dragon Bones, and worst shield stack... OKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOK

loving it. hopefully those mentioned "changes" happen in this PTS before Murk goes live

cause if not whoa NELLY ZOS has a hate *** for Sorc. And have done nothing but nerfed the worst sustain worst magDPS "maybe tied with magDen" class, cause what? they were somehow over-performing at under-performing...

BUT I WILL TAKE IT, atleast we are just really nerfed, and not dead up *** creak with 1 second cast times on the paddle!!!!

Ankael07 · September 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

First off, thanks for at least listening. Capping shields on Max HP is pretty brutal but certainly better than having cast times.

My honest, non-sarcastic, question is:
If shield-stacking is effectively removed due to this cap on shield-size and any LA build can throw on Dampen Magic and basically hit the cap at 25k HP, then what exactly is the special defence of magSorc?

The class has terrible hots/passive heals and terrible damage mitigation or avoidance tools. Let me rephrase the question in a way it gives some perspective....

If a MagBlade can throw on Dampen Magic and get same shield size as MagSorc all the while having:
heals from many passive heals (Refreshing Path, Swallow Soul, Siphoning Attacks)

free Major Resolve/Major Ward from passives (which makes shields better)

25% AoE damage reduction from Double Take.

the ability to Cloak out, make attacks miss and suppress DoTs

high Minor Maim uptime on targets due to Fear/Shadow Image

…. then why on earth would I play magSorc? For Streak? Or because my shield is cheaper?

I'll be honest, I like the intention with this change and I don't want to overthrow it. But something needs to change with MagSorc. Make Blood Magic a much better heal, add Major Evasion to Boundless Storm, maybe remove Conjured Ward and give a different defensive skill while making "cheaper shields by x %" a passive.

Something, anything, to boost survivability without relying only on spamming shields.

That special defense was supposed to be the 3rd Overload bar but now its gone

Tonturri · September 2018

At this point, I feel it's safe to say...Sorcs have to invest more to do less.

Our skills just plain do less than other classes - both in the sense that they're just weaker than another class's option and in that they do less things overall. Crystal Frags is an RNG burst skill that has had its dmg nerfed and does literally nothing else but a medium amount of burst damage. Compared to bow, Fissure, lash, it just does LESS. Less damage, less utility. We have to morph that skill and give up the proc in order to get an AoE version.

Our armor buff is an armor buff and not much else, while other classes get their armor buff for free or have it provide sweet additional effects. We could have a unique interaction between Surge and lightning form doing small crits on melee opponents but there's no longer any room on the bars for that.

So many of our skills are budget/cheap versions of other skills it's painful. Our skills need to DO MORE. Not just more damage or more healing, as that would be nice, but more additional effects. Our supposedly unique class shield is now pretty equal with Harness.

Maulkin · September 2018

Derra wrote: »

I feel we´re getting to a workable solution.

What´s missing now is the previously mentioned feedback on cage (it should now deal dmg when it connects - not when the stun lasts its full duration).

Other minor tweaks that would be highly desireable could be:

- Boundless storm - cost reduction and maybe increase of the range to 7m (seriously why does this ability cost 4050 magica base when templar focus costs 1890 and dragonknights spiked armor 2700 - both unarguably way stronger)
- powersurge - make it heal for half the value when not critting (this would specifically benefit nonCP sorc)

maybe:

- convert part of dark conversions healing to a hot aswell (like the resource mechanic)
- bloodmagic make it heal on any sorcerer ability hitting a target - not only dark magic (excluding pets and petabilities as that would be overpowered)

Considering the complete lack of reliable Sorc HoTs (and DoTs) I disagree with that particular change to Blood Magic. On the grounds that, for PvP at least, it simply won't be good enough. The only other Sorc ability beyond Frags that you regularly hit people with is Curse, and that's once every 3.5".

We only have 2 passive heals/HoTs, Power Surge and Blood Magic. All other classes have a minimum of 4.

NB (4) -> Refreshing Path, Siphoning Attacks, Swallow Soul, Sap Essence
Warden (5) -> Trellis, Arctic Blast, Lotus Blossom, Bond With Nature, Bursting Vines
Templar (5) -> Sweeps, Total Dark, Extended Ritual, Purifying Light, Radiant Glory
DK (6!) -> Battle Roar, Inhale, Burning Embers, Power Lash, Stone Fist, Cauterize

On top of that all of these classes have defensive/healing ults and have better burst heals than Sorc, while none of those burst heals have cast-time. My point is, if you only have 2 passive heals, they better be freaking good and not weak as.

The best solution to that is a revamp of at least one morph of the Rune Prison skill to make it a decent DoT. Thus proc'ing Blood Magic basically constantly like a HoT. And they can then tune the HoT heals and cooldown accordingly, but ~2k in PvE and ~1k PvP every second would be minimum requirement to make any sort of impact.

Ideally it should also grant Major Sorcery, since our dependence on crits for our other passive heals (Power Surge). Basically what we need is a Dark Magic version of Vampires Bane.

By changing one skill alone they would accomplish so much. Basically allowing magSorcs to:
1) wear sets that proc on DoT damage
2) have some passive DoT pressure outside of burst rotation
3) get more HoTs going to reduce reliance on shield spam (given the nerfs)
4) increase their offence through Major Sorcery which has been nerfed a lot recently
5) have some more buffs, of which they have precious little

Lord_Eomer · September 2018

Galarthor wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

since the 40% health check is a greater than or equal to function it will likely be outside the brackets of the battle-spirit calculation and likely will also benefit from the additional health from battle spirit. I'd test it before too many hysterics, I'd think most reasonable people would assume that's the way the calculation would be handled, it would be weird to do a greater than or equal to check and then multiply it by .5 again.

Still at the usual 20k to 23k health that's just 8000 to 9000 shielding and the 12000 you currently get from Hardened is already not enough. Sure you could increase your HP, but sorc already have sustain issues. Decreasing your magicka pool will only make matters worse. Besides a large HP pool doesnt mean much when your resistences are low. The only way to get resistences up is through heavy armor, but when you stack heavy armor the shields will be too strong. Sets that give you resistences are also not an option due to the ever-repesent sustain issues that ZOS refuses to address.

In PVP you will get half shield strength : 4500 instead of 9000

Good luck!

Minalan · September 2018

40% health-capped critable shields on a class with light armor and zero health bonuses in the class passives, armor bonuses, or magicka races. Yeah great design there.

This is like negotiating with an ex-wife who hates you.

Maulkin · September 2018

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

since the 40% health check is a greater than or equal to function it will likely be outside the brackets of the battle-spirit calculation and likely will also benefit from the additional health from battle spirit. I'd test it before too many hysterics, I'd think most reasonable people would assume that's the way the calculation would be handled, it would be weird to do a greater than or equal to check and then multiply it by .5 again.

Still at the usual 20k to 23k health that's just 8000 to 9000 shielding and the 12000 you currently get from Hardened is already not enough. Sure you could increase your HP, but sorc already have sustain issues. Decreasing your magicka pool will only make matters worse. Besides a large HP pool doesnt mean much when your resistences are low. The only way to get resistences up is through heavy armor, but when you stack heavy armor the shields will be too strong. Sets that give you resistences are also not an option due to the ever-repesent sustain issues that ZOS refuses to address.

In PVP you will get half strength shield : 4500 instead of 9000

Good luck!

I don't think they intend for the 40% to be affected by Battle Spirit. But I guess we'll see.

The target of this change was mostly PvE builds investing nothing on HP and having 15k HP but a +22k HP Hardened Ward due to how high the shields scale with max magicka and bastion when they are not affected by Battle Spirit.

If you try to play no-CP PvP today with only one shield (a ~10k Hardened Ward) you are mince meat and the squishiest class around. If they go beyond that, then they need their heads checked.

ezio45 · September 2018

What you say warden needs better damage, QUICK NERF SORC

Lord_Eomer · September 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

since the 40% health check is a greater than or equal to function it will likely be outside the brackets of the battle-spirit calculation and likely will also benefit from the additional health from battle spirit. I'd test it before too many hysterics, I'd think most reasonable people would assume that's the way the calculation would be handled, it would be weird to do a greater than or equal to check and then multiply it by .5 again.

Still at the usual 20k to 23k health that's just 8000 to 9000 shielding and the 12000 you currently get from Hardened is already not enough. Sure you could increase your HP, but sorc already have sustain issues. Decreasing your magicka pool will only make matters worse. Besides a large HP pool doesnt mean much when your resistences are low. The only way to get resistences up is through heavy armor, but when you stack heavy armor the shields will be too strong. Sets that give you resistences are also not an option due to the ever-repesent sustain issues that ZOS refuses to address.

In PVP you will get half strength shield : 4500 instead of 9000

Good luck!

I don't think they intend for the 40% to be affected by Battle Spirit. But I guess we'll see.

The target of this change was mostly PvE builds investing nothing on HP and having 15k HP but a +22k HP Hardened Ward due to how high the shields scale with max magicka and bastion when they are not affected by Battle Spirit.

If you try to play no-CP PvP today with only once shield (~10k Hardened Ward) you are mince meat and the squishiest class around. If they go beyond that they need their heads checked.

They did not mention in Class Representative Notes if Battle Spirit will not affect shield so its obvious that shield is going to be ripped in half!

Maulkin · September 2018

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

since the 40% health check is a greater than or equal to function it will likely be outside the brackets of the battle-spirit calculation and likely will also benefit from the additional health from battle spirit. I'd test it before too many hysterics, I'd think most reasonable people would assume that's the way the calculation would be handled, it would be weird to do a greater than or equal to check and then multiply it by .5 again.

Still at the usual 20k to 23k health that's just 8000 to 9000 shielding and the 12000 you currently get from Hardened is already not enough. Sure you could increase your HP, but sorc already have sustain issues. Decreasing your magicka pool will only make matters worse. Besides a large HP pool doesnt mean much when your resistences are low. The only way to get resistences up is through heavy armor, but when you stack heavy armor the shields will be too strong. Sets that give you resistences are also not an option due to the ever-repesent sustain issues that ZOS refuses to address.

In PVP you will get half strength shield : 4500 instead of 9000

Good luck!

I don't think they intend for the 40% to be affected by Battle Spirit. But I guess we'll see.

The target of this change was mostly PvE builds investing nothing on HP and having 15k HP but a +22k HP Hardened Ward due to how high the shields scale with max magicka and bastion when they are not affected by Battle Spirit.

If you try to play no-CP PvP today with only once shield (~10k Hardened Ward) you are mince meat and the squishiest class around. If they go beyond that they need their heads checked.

They did not mention in Class Representative Notes if Battle Spirit will not affect shield so its obvious that shield is going to be ripped in half!

They are meeting notes, not patch notes. We'll see when we get the patch notes. It's not that obvious to me.

katorga · September 2018

Our supposedly unique class shield is now pretty equal with Harness.

it shields the pets, that is what is unique.

Everything about the class is based around the mechanics of being a pet class. I think that is why there are so many fire and forget skills like curse, wrath, liquid lightning. Free up time to micro-manage pets. The overload third bar was specifically there to provide enough skill slots with all of the triple-bar toggles sorcs have.

If they are going to persist with a 40% cap, sorc health should include pet health in the cap or change the passive for 10% health if pet is active boosted to 15% health per pet. That would keep the shields, maybe, reasonably large enough to keep pets alive, and also encourage pet use for larger shields. ZOS is perpetually trying to get sorcs to use pets.

With these changes pets also need to scale from both spell damage and magicka, scale better with CP, maybe make the now useless bastion CP specifically buff pets.

ezio45 · September 2018

katorga wrote: »

Our supposedly unique class shield is now pretty equal with Harness.

it shields the pets, that is what is unique.

Everything about the class is based around the mechanics of being a pet class. I think that is why there are so many fire and forget skills like curse, wrath, liquid lightning. Free up time to micro-manage pets. The overload third bar was specifically there to provide enough skill slots with all of the triple-bar toggles sorcs have.

If they are going to persist with a 40% cap, sorc health should include pet health in the cap or change the passive for 10% health if pet is active boosted to 15% health per pet. That would keep the shields, maybe, reasonably large enough to keep pets alive, and also encourage pet use for larger shields. ZOS is perpetually trying to get sorcs to use pets.

With these changes pets also need to scale from both spell damage and magicka, scale better with CP, maybe make the now useless bastion CP specifically buff pets.

as someone who hates pet builds good luck

there not even viable for half of eso's content

Malem_Benign · September 2018

Hello again,

After watching this interesting show for some time I've finally get the idea.

So you want to remove the comfortable-evening play from the game for at least big number of players. Make their participation in PVP areas and BGs valuable only in a few specific sets. Make Veteran Dungeons a lot more harder to win, once again in a very few specific sets. Make every boss with K.O. shots a deadend. Make Solo Dungeons unbearable in any possible way, etc. Ruin single play, force to coop with specific chars with specific sets for each specific challenge.

There is no balance intention in that, please don't lie. You're far not the first. The only reason for such toxic changes is the forcing players to spend more and more time in the game and receive less and less satisfaction from the play, always stay unsatisfied. I see that you're in the beggining of that path, but you're going exact this way.

The only thing that is left - is to monetize in a proper way this constant dissatisfaction.

The idea is clear - the game considered too easy and comfotable for players and this affects in a bad way ZoS financial plans. That would be fixed.

Maulkin · September 2018

katorga wrote: »

Our supposedly unique class shield is now pretty equal with Harness.

it shields the pets, that is what is unique.

Everything about the class is based around the mechanics of being a pet class. I think that is why there are so many fire and forget skills like curse, wrath, liquid lightning. Free up time to micro-manage pets. The overload third bar was specifically there to provide enough skill slots with all of the triple-bar toggles sorcs have.

If they are going to persist with a 40% cap, sorc health should include pet health in the cap or change the passive for 10% health if pet is active boosted to 15% health per pet. That would keep the shields, maybe, reasonably large enough to keep pets alive, and also encourage pet use for larger shields. ZOS is perpetually trying to get sorcs to use pets.

With these changes pets also need to scale from both spell damage and magicka, scale better with CP, maybe make the now useless bastion CP specifically buff pets.

Trying to make Sorcs use pets in PvP only achieves making them reroll magblades.

The vast, vast majority of magSorcs hate them. They hate that they need to be double barred, they hate the fact that they get stuck in obstacles, they hate that they can be easily killed (easier now with shield nerfs), they hate that they have cast-time to be re-spawned, they hate that they take 2-3 seconds to run up to targets before they start damaging. They hate them.

If the design was entirely different then maybe. But if my nana had nuts she'd be my grandad.

Vahrokh · September 2018

Cronopoly wrote: »

Today, In Light Armor on Live, Swift Stamblades are wrecking everyone with Bleeds, Dawnbreaker, Spin to Win. Hard to target them with very fast Sonic play and as soon as you do, "smoke", they dissappear. Kudos to them for their awesome tools. I just want to compete a little.

Crittable shields, 40% and scalable off Health..., which I think was the goal all along. Negotiating 101, initially propose something ridiculous, then settle on what you wanted , and have it seen like a compromise. Meanwhile the other side gets screwed.

This whole scalable off health, which is interesting that LA gets nothing that synergises with Health unlike Heavy.
Why run Light Armor and Magicka at all in PVP for any class? What is the upside I'm missing.

The upside is that you can roleplay being a mage!

grannas211 · September 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Our supposedly unique class shield is now pretty equal with Harness.

it shields the pets, that is what is unique.

Everything about the class is based around the mechanics of being a pet class. I think that is why there are so many fire and forget skills like curse, wrath, liquid lightning. Free up time to micro-manage pets. The overload third bar was specifically there to provide enough skill slots with all of the triple-bar toggles sorcs have.

If they are going to persist with a 40% cap, sorc health should include pet health in the cap or change the passive for 10% health if pet is active boosted to 15% health per pet. That would keep the shields, maybe, reasonably large enough to keep pets alive, and also encourage pet use for larger shields. ZOS is perpetually trying to get sorcs to use pets.

With these changes pets also need to scale from both spell damage and magicka, scale better with CP, maybe make the now useless bastion CP specifically buff pets.

Trying to make Sorcs use pets in PvP only achieves making them reroll magblades.

The vast, vast majority of magSorcs hate them. They hate that they need to be double barred, they hate the fact that they get stuck in obstacles, they hate that they can be easily killed (easier now with shield nerfs), they hate that they have cast-time to be re-spawned, they hate that they take 2-3 seconds to run up to targets before they start damaging. They hate them.

If the design was entirely different then maybe. But if my nana had nuts she'd be my grandad.

did you just assume your Nana's gender?

Vahrokh · September 2018

ezio45 wrote: »

Honestly I dont know what to do at this point. We have been over this for weeks and their answer is this. This is as bad if not worse than the cast time

Don't be so negative!

We could have been completely trounched and only unsub-worthy OR be borderline worthless as a DPS class.

With the current development team, we are "lucky" we have "just" been steered towards borderline worthless instead of being steered towards unsub-worthy!