PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

Cronopoly

JadonSky wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

One of my trial guilds sorc class leader has contacted me to say that if the 1s "poop-motion" shield nerf goes live, he will switch to his templar (he has already done so) and I'll have to switch to another class too (stamsorc not allowed).

Thank you ZOS, for ruining my trials career in the guild I've done most of my progressions achievements!

P.S. I have 5 PvE sorcs. Five. And 1 magblade with 10h playtime and purple gear, which also got the nerf this patch. A magblade I don't like to play. That's it. Now please tell me why I should keep playing ESO.

Yeah I already moved all my sorcs gear to my magplar and built him for pvp. Sadly my sorc's won't be played anymore.

Same, my Sorc is naked and is destined to be slotted at the bottom of the Character list. I was about to do Summerset quests on him but not worth it. I do have something in mind...I need to park him in the world somewhere. Damn there needs to be a Seppuku emote...

P.S. What is the tallest cliff drop...Wrothgar cliffs?

Dutchessx

I really wanted to provide some feedback in regards to the sorc nerf. However, I can’t download the pts for some reason. So I have been trying to work out builds on paper. I think all of us who have played sorc for a long time, I have played sorcerer since pre-launch, can come up with something but the the problem is that it isn’t viable, I speak from a pvp standpoint. I also don’t know how I am going to farm gear in pve as a sorc either. All of us can put on heavy armor or make builds with protective sets. However, in doing so we loose what makes our class special and distinctive and we lose how we want to play. I can say I did agree with the reduction of shields from 20 seconds but I thought 6 seconds was to short, I thought 10 seconds would have been better. Now we will have cast time and critable shields if these nerfs go live. Usually I main a Templar for group play and I like my sorcerer to solo on. I play mostly no cp servers and the only builds I can see might be possible are on cp servers but even then with the increased damage I don’t know if they are viable. These nerfs really sadden me I love this game it has been so fun & I have met a lot of wonderful people here. I don’t know what this game has for me in the future. I guess the advertisement of play how you want is for all classes unless you are a magic sorcerer or a magicka class that depends on the light armor shield.
Further, I know if these changes go live I do not believe magicka sorc will be viable in no cp. I encourage those in charge of making these recommendations to listen to the community and maybe take a magic sorcerer for a spin on Sotha Sil and in BG’s (make sure to simulate a decent MMR so you get premades that know how to pvp) and then go back to the drawing board and scrap these proposed changes on the pts. As things are I can do pretty well on any server I choose to play. However, I can’t tell you how many times when I come up on a player that knows how to kill a sorcerer that my shields have fractured and killed in an instance because there wasn’t time to react. With these changes I expect to be dead more often than doing any sort of damage. Thanks for reading.
- Dutchessx Out.

grannas211

MalagenR wrote: »

I honestly can't believe that after all of the comments made by the community on why these changes are awful that they haven't just admitted they were wrong and pushed off making changes till they have a more well thought out plan for execution with a different patch.

It's so ridiculous.

To be honest they dont do that. Maybe in a patch or two afterwards.

Doctordarkspawn

Keep makin' noise, folks.

Their on the fence so keep makin' noise.

ruikkarikun

Again, in my opinion there is another way to implement developers changes without cast time. That's it, I don't know how about all others, but I'm not asking them to leave all as on live server. I just want them to make their changes in other way, without cast time.

Why? I think cast time is wrong because let's face it - this game based on instant abilities, so that's why many of us enjoy it instead of other games.

Dutchessx

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Again, in my opinion there is another way to implement developers changes without cast time. That's it, I don't know how about all others, but I'm not asking them to leave all as on live server. I just want them to make their changes in other way, without cast time.

Why? I think cast time is wrong because let's face it - this game based on instant abilities, so that's why many of us enjoy it instead of other games.

What I would like to see from the developers is where are they going with the magicka version of the class. How do they see it fitting into end game play. If they are taking away my play style of being a mobile damage dealer, what is their vision for the class or is it just a mindless nerf?

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_Wrobel.

Kagukan

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Keep makin' noise, folks.

Their on the fence so keep makin' noise.

It was said that they know there are issues with the cast time and if there were to be any big changes it wouldn't happen until PTS3. I believe PTS is currently on iteration 2.

So yes, there is still hope for a reasonable change to damage shields.

Galarthor

ezio45 wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

helped 15+ players <lvl50 kill a crab world boss last night..... thats something that i wont be able to do in murkimire....

or really do anything besides craft.......

Craftmanship is really undervalued in our modern society. Everybody wants to be something fancy these days.

loool who even wants crafted sets anymore

Lots of sorcs run Shackle Breaker! Though, with all the sorcs becoming crafters, I see why it might not be a job with a lot of prospect

BalticBlues

"I used to be an adventurer like you, then I took a cast time in the shields."

Derra

A proposed change to shields that would possibly adress some/most of the issues they currently pose while keeping them as instantcast abilities.
Resistances and crits on shields would stay active as they are on the pts.

Basically the idea is making shields provide part of their strengh as instant burst mitigation and part of it as a shield over time mechanic that continues to add to the shield the caster currently has.
The rough patter i could see working would be:
50% shieldstrengh applied instantly 15% every second after that. Total value that can be stored is 125% of the previous tooltip.

I´ll try to illustrate it with hardened ward as an example:

Old HW tooltip reads:
Conjure globes of daedric energy for protection,
granting a damage shield for you and your pets
that absorbs 20000 dmg for 6s. Your own globe absorbs
23% more damage.

New proposed tooltip:
Conjure a damage shield for you and your pets that
absorbs 10000 dmg instantly and an additional 3000 dmg every second
for the next 5 seconds. Total shieldvalue that can be accumulated is 25000.
Your own shields absorb 23% more damage and the amount that can be stored is increased by 23%.
Duration: 7 seconds

What would this mean?
Firstof it would reduce the effectiveness of shieldspam by 50%. Every time you cast your ward you´d get a 10k shield instead of a 20k shield. This would reduce shield effectivity in pve (facetanking boss mechanics with shieldspam) aswell as in pvp (facetanking enemy players without other methods of counterplay).

Letting your shield run it´s full course would result in "more shield for magica invested". You´d get a total of 25k shield after 6s instead of 20k. This would promote a more active defense + counterattack pattern for sorc instead of just focusing on pure offense or defense.

It would also serve the purpose of working as a proactive defense - albeit at a higher cost. You could cast your ward 2x in a row to fill the total maximum shield value faster.

Lastly it would also make primary shields more attractive for other classes as they would work better in conjunction with healing over time abilities and be generally more useful when used on it´s duration instead of spamming them.

Proposed changes for other shields without tooltips:

Healing ward:
Reduce the duration to 3.5s - otherwise it´s healing function will never work as the ward will simply always get depleted before it runs out. Make it heal for 50% instead of 100% of the remaining shield value (halve duration halve heal).

Harness Magica:
Duration 7s. Same design as hardened ward mentioned above.
Harness magica will return 12% of it´s original cost per second while in combat - this is increased by 1% per piece of light armor equipped.
Short explanation as i think this is the most important change apart from the general suggestion. It would mean harness would refund between 102 and 109% of it´s cost - if it runs for the full duration (no refresh) - eliminating endless harness sustain from the game while making the skill better in nonCP pvp at the same time.

Dampen magica:
Duration 7s. Same design as hardened ward above.
Every piece of light armor will increase the strengh of the base and the consecutive shields by 7% and increase the total shieldvalue that can be stored by 7%.

The values in this post could be subject to change - it´s just a rough idea of what i could see working that would also promote a more fun gameplay approach to sorcs/shield builds in general.

Galarthor

That would encourage even more Shield Stacking @Derra because 10000 turns into 5000 in PvP which is far too low to even last 1 GCD. As a result sorcs will always use 2 shields (or more) to at least have around 10000 shield value. As a result, a lot of sorcs currently only running 1 shield will switch to 2 shields, therefore increasing the shield stacking rather than reducing it.

The biggest contribution ZOS can make to "balancing" shields is change how they are displayed for the opponents. Once that is fixed we can have a more objective discussion about shield strength. Until then, people will always feel like sorcs are invulnerable - unless they can burst right through those shields and directly get HP low. But if that is the case then sorcs are hopefully lost b/c they cannot constantly compensate that amount of damage to their HP.

Stibbons

Macro instant cast sorc shieldstackers must stop and this is result.

Derra

Galarthor wrote: »

That would encourage even more Shield Stacking @Derra because 10000 turns into 5000 in PvP which is far too low to even last 1 GCD. As a result sorcs will always use 2 shields (or more) to at least have around 10000 shield value. As a result, a lot of sorcs currently only running 1 shield will switch to 2 shields, therefore increasing the shield stacking rather than reducing it.

The biggest contribution ZOS can make to "balancing" shields is change how they are displayed for the opponents. Once that is fixed we can have a more objective discussion about shield strength. Until then, people will always feel like sorcs are invulnerable - unless they can burst right through those shields and directly get HP low. But if that is the case then sorcs are hopefully lost b/c they cannot constantly compensate that amount of damage to their HP.

Or it would result in combining shields with hots to greater effect.

From personal experience i think it would workout just fine. Keep in mind the mentioned new mechanic would have the same result for casting 1 shield 2x as it would for casting 2 shields 1x.

waitwhat

Derra wrote: »

A proposed change to shields that would possibly adress some/most of the issues they currently pose while keeping them as instantcast abilities.
Resistances and crits on shields would stay active as they are on the pts.

Basically the idea is making shields provide part of their strengh as instant burst mitigation and part of it as a shield over time mechanic that continues to add to the shield the caster currently has.
The rough patter i could see working would be:
50% shieldstrengh applied instantly 15% every second after that. Total value that can be stored is 125% of the previous tooltip.

I´ll try to illustrate it with hardened ward as an example:

Old HW tooltip reads:
Conjure globes of daedric energy for protection,
granting a damage shield for you and your pets
that absorbs 20000 dmg for 6s. Your own globe absorbs
23% more damage.

New proposed tooltip:
Conjure a damage shield for you and your pets that
absorbs 10000 dmg instantly and an additional 3000 dmg every second
for the next 5 seconds. Total shieldvalue that can be accumulated is 25000.
Your own shields absorb 23% more damage and the amount that can be stored is increased by 23%.
Duration: 7 seconds

What would this mean?
Firstof it would reduce the effectiveness of shieldspam by 50%. Every time you cast your ward you´d get a 10k shield instead of a 20k shield. This would reduce shield effectivity in pve (facetanking boss mechanics with shieldspam) aswell as in pvp (facetanking enemy players without other methods of counterplay).

Letting your shield run it´s full course would result in "more shield for magica invested". You´d get a total of 25k shield after 6s instead of 20k. This would promote a more active defense + counterattack pattern for sorc instead of just focusing on pure offense or defense.

It would also serve the purpose of working as a proactive defense - albeit at a higher cost. You could cast your ward 2x in a row to fill the total maximum shield value faster.

Lastly it would also make primary shields more attractive for other classes as they would work better in conjunction with healing over time abilities and be generally more useful when used on it´s duration instead of spamming them.

Proposed changes for other shields without tooltips:

Healing ward:
Reduce the duration to 3.5s - otherwise it´s healing function will never work as the ward will simply always get depleted before it runs out. Make it heal for 50% instead of 100% of the remaining shield value (halve duration halve heal).

Harness Magica:
Duration 7s. Same design as hardened ward mentioned above.
Harness magica will return 12% of it´s original cost per second while in combat - this is increased by 1% per piece of light armor equipped.
Short explanation as i think this is the most important change apart from the general suggestion. It would mean harness would refund between 102 and 109% of it´s cost - if it runs for the full duration (no refresh) - eliminating endless harness sustain from the game while making the skill better in nonCP pvp at the same time.

Dampen magica:
Duration 7s. Same design as hardened ward above.
Every piece of light armor will increase the strengh of the base and the consecutive shields by 7% and increase the total shieldvalue that can be stored by 7%.

The values in this post could be subject to change - it´s just a rough idea of what i could see working that would also promote a more fun gameplay approach to sorcs/shield builds in general.

@ZOS_RobGarrett

I like this idea. Very well done.

There are precedents with other abilities for a greater return for greater time investment, or "delayed-gratification" as it were, prior to recast, so the idea is not at all out of the ordinary.

bardx86

Derra wrote: »

A proposed change to shields that would possibly adress some/most of the issues they currently pose while keeping them as instantcast abilities.
Resistances and crits on shields would stay active as they are on the pts.

Basically the idea is making shields provide part of their strengh as instant burst mitigation and part of it as a shield over time mechanic that continues to add to the shield the caster currently has.
The rough patter i could see working would be:
50% shieldstrengh applied instantly 15% every second after that. Total value that can be stored is 125% of the previous tooltip.

I´ll try to illustrate it with hardened ward as an example:

Old HW tooltip reads:
Conjure globes of daedric energy for protection,
granting a damage shield for you and your pets
that absorbs 20000 dmg for 6s. Your own globe absorbs
23% more damage.

New proposed tooltip:
Conjure a damage shield for you and your pets that
absorbs 10000 dmg instantly and an additional 3000 dmg every second
for the next 5 seconds. Total shieldvalue that can be accumulated is 25000.
Your own shields absorb 23% more damage and the amount that can be stored is increased by 23%.
Duration: 7 seconds

What would this mean?
Firstof it would reduce the effectiveness of shieldspam by 50%. Every time you cast your ward you´d get a 10k shield instead of a 20k shield. This would reduce shield effectivity in pve (facetanking boss mechanics with shieldspam) aswell as in pvp (facetanking enemy players without other methods of counterplay).

Letting your shield run it´s full course would result in "more shield for magica invested". You´d get a total of 25k shield after 6s instead of 20k. This would promote a more active defense + counterattack pattern for sorc instead of just focusing on pure offense or defense.

It would also serve the purpose of working as a proactive defense - albeit at a higher cost. You could cast your ward 2x in a row to fill the total maximum shield value faster.

Lastly it would also make primary shields more attractive for other classes as they would work better in conjunction with healing over time abilities and be generally more useful when used on it´s duration instead of spamming them.

Proposed changes for other shields without tooltips:

Healing ward:
Reduce the duration to 3.5s - otherwise it´s healing function will never work as the ward will simply always get depleted before it runs out. Make it heal for 50% instead of 100% of the remaining shield value (halve duration halve heal).

Harness Magica:
Duration 7s. Same design as hardened ward mentioned above.
Harness magica will return 12% of it´s original cost per second while in combat - this is increased by 1% per piece of light armor equipped.
Short explanation as i think this is the most important change apart from the general suggestion. It would mean harness would refund between 102 and 109% of it´s cost - if it runs for the full duration (no refresh) - eliminating endless harness sustain from the game while making the skill better in nonCP pvp at the same time.

Dampen magica:
Duration 7s. Same design as hardened ward above.
Every piece of light armor will increase the strengh of the base and the consecutive shields by 7% and increase the total shieldvalue that can be stored by 7%.

The values in this post could be subject to change - it´s just a rough idea of what i could see working that would also promote a more fun gameplay approach to sorcs/shield builds in general.

Ive always said Healing ward needs it duration reduced. waiting 6 secs for a heal is to long.

Galarthor

Derra wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

That would encourage even more Shield Stacking @Derra because 10000 turns into 5000 in PvP which is far too low to even last 1 GCD. As a result sorcs will always use 2 shields (or more) to at least have around 10000 shield value. As a result, a lot of sorcs currently only running 1 shield will switch to 2 shields, therefore increasing the shield stacking rather than reducing it.

The biggest contribution ZOS can make to "balancing" shields is change how they are displayed for the opponents. Once that is fixed we can have a more objective discussion about shield strength. Until then, people will always feel like sorcs are invulnerable - unless they can burst right through those shields and directly get HP low. But if that is the case then sorcs are hopefully lost b/c they cannot constantly compensate that amount of damage to their HP.

Or it would result in combining shields with hots to greater effect.

From personal experience i think it would workout just fine. Keep in mind the mentioned new mechanic would have the same result for casting 1 shield 2x as it would for casting 2 shields 1x.

Maybe, but it would also aggravate the problem of survivability in 1vX as only 50% of the shield strength would be available but 100% is already insufficient in these scenarios.

As for the Healing Ward, I really like the idea.
Another option would be to make the magicka morph of Dark Deal into an instant with an emphasis on healing in a way that gets you out of execute range but a large proportion of the total healing will be received over time.

Andferne

So can we get a class spammable attack?

Can we have Pets switched to having a duration instead of being a toggle. This way we don't have to waste even more precious bar space on double slotting them.

Please rework numerous passives so they are viable. (Even make them appealing the StamSorcs)

Rework implosion passive completely and then boost our execute to the level of other classes and make one of those executes a stamina morph.

BaylorCorvette

The fact that Sorc (Mag AND Stam) have the fewest number of buffs and fewest number of debuffs seems to be a bit of a problem.. Would be nice from Sorc to be brought more in line with other classes. Both the Mag and Stam variations of Sorc.

ku5h

Dont know if this idea was mentioned before but i have something I would be ok with. Make shields have bleedtrough mechanic, for exampe 20%. So all incoming dmg will be absorbed 80% and 20% will hit your HP, shields last 10sec.
It will force shield user to run some hots, but it will make us a bit more durable if done properly, which will compensate for crittable shields.

Dutchessx

https://youtu.be/24n9fYPHkfI

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

The fact that Sorc (Mag AND Stam) have the fewest number of buffs and fewest number of debuffs seems to be a bit of a problem.. Would be nice from Sorc to be brought more in line with other classes. Both the Mag and Stam variations of Sorc.

Ummm... think you are missing some items under the category of sorcerer. Check out this link for your missing information.

BaylorCorvette

What would be nice for StamSorc is to move Dark Deal to Daedric Summoning and Bound Armaments to Dark Magic. That way a lot of us StamSorc can actually make use of the Daedric Protection passive. Then, make Blood Magic passive proc when you use bound armaments, would synergize with the "tank" aspect that ZoS is trying to push with Bound Armaments.

Alaztor91

ku5h wrote: »

Dont know if this idea was mentioned before but i have something I would be ok with. Make shields have bleedtrough mechanic, for exampe 20%. So all incoming dmg will be absorbed 80% and 20% will hit your HP, shields last 10sec.
It will force shield user to run some hots, but it will make us a bit more durable if done properly, which will compensate for crittable shields.

I also agree with a bleedtrough mechanic, percentages could be adjusted, shield cost/duration/strength could also be tweaked to fit better with it. I'm convinced that the vast majority of the sorc/shieldstacking pvp nerf requests are because they don't see the sorc HP bar moving, so a bleedtrough mechanic would help with that.

Derra

Galarthor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

That would encourage even more Shield Stacking @Derra because 10000 turns into 5000 in PvP which is far too low to even last 1 GCD. As a result sorcs will always use 2 shields (or more) to at least have around 10000 shield value. As a result, a lot of sorcs currently only running 1 shield will switch to 2 shields, therefore increasing the shield stacking rather than reducing it.

The biggest contribution ZOS can make to "balancing" shields is change how they are displayed for the opponents. Once that is fixed we can have a more objective discussion about shield strength. Until then, people will always feel like sorcs are invulnerable - unless they can burst right through those shields and directly get HP low. But if that is the case then sorcs are hopefully lost b/c they cannot constantly compensate that amount of damage to their HP.

Or it would result in combining shields with hots to greater effect.

From personal experience i think it would workout just fine. Keep in mind the mentioned new mechanic would have the same result for casting 1 shield 2x as it would for casting 2 shields 1x.

Maybe, but it would also aggravate the problem of survivability in 1vX as only 50% of the shield strength would be available but 100% is already insufficient in these scenarios.

As for the Healing Ward, I really like the idea.
Another option would be to make the magicka morph of Dark Deal into an instant with an emphasis on healing in a way that gets you out of execute range but a large proportion of the total healing will be received over time.

It would definetly for situations where you´d spam your shield. However it would improve survivability for situations where you streak away/los/darkdeal/meditate or for builds utilizing dodgeroll to a greater extend.

Keep in mind the thought is to reduce the facetanking gameplay approach.

I don´t deny that sorc would need other improvements/reworks on core skills as irylia illustrates in his video. However this is purely focused on providing a hopefully vaible and fun alternatives to giving shields a casttime.

BaylorCorvette

Dutchessx wrote: »

Ummm... think you are missing some items under the category of sorcerer. Check out this link for your missing information.

Yeah just Major Major Vitality per TeAlry's video at 1:09.0. I skimmed through his video since it is so long, but I think that's the only thing missing from the table?

Galarthor

@Derra

I don't dislike the idea in general. It actually sounds interesting, hower, I think there are several issues that have to be address first in order to implement such a shield change.

1) 10000 PvE turns in 5000 PvP which is pretty much nothing.
2) 3000 each second in PvE turn into 1500 each second in PvP, which is not even worth mentioning.
3) There is no space on sorc bars for HoTs to actually suppelement the "Shield HoT".
4) 1vX / outnumbered survivability is already very bad on live and will be exorbitantly worse due to the lower inital shield.
5) Shields on live are already pretty weak where you have to recast them every 1 or 2 sec even in many 1v1 situations. Cutting shield strength in half will make the problem only worse, increasing the need to shield stack - something we want to get rid off.
6) Lack of bar space to compensate for lower shields.

A solution could be something very similar to the Warden Shields, just not only for ranged attacks - i.e. have shields have a large size, but only absorb 3 to 5 attacks. At the same time get rid off stacking Ward + Annulment.

Though I still believe, there isn't really an issue with shields other than the psychological issue of not seeing HP drop when you hit the target thus depriving the opponent of a sense of accomplishment. Sorcs stacking Ward + Annulment can be annoying, but so can be templars combinging block + BoL, DK combining block + heal, NBs combining dodge + cloak, ....
The principle is the same, these combos are even often times far stronger than stacking 2 shields, but they don't deprive the opponent of a sense of accomplishment and are thus not perceived as strong as / stronger than shields.

Dutchessx

Derra wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

That would encourage even more Shield Stacking @Derra because 10000 turns into 5000 in PvP which is far too low to even last 1 GCD. As a result sorcs will always use 2 shields (or more) to at least have around 10000 shield value. As a result, a lot of sorcs currently only running 1 shield will switch to 2 shields, therefore increasing the shield stacking rather than reducing it.

The biggest contribution ZOS can make to "balancing" shields is change how they are displayed for the opponents. Once that is fixed we can have a more objective discussion about shield strength. Until then, people will always feel like sorcs are invulnerable - unless they can burst right through those shields and directly get HP low. But if that is the case then sorcs are hopefully lost b/c they cannot constantly compensate that amount of damage to their HP.

Or it would result in combining shields with hots to greater effect.

From personal experience i think it would workout just fine. Keep in mind the mentioned new mechanic would have the same result for casting 1 shield 2x as it would for casting 2 shields 1x.

Maybe, but it would also aggravate the problem of survivability in 1vX as only 50% of the shield strength would be available but 100% is already insufficient in these scenarios.

As for the Healing Ward, I really like the idea.
Another option would be to make the magicka morph of Dark Deal into an instant with an emphasis on healing in a way that gets you out of execute range but a large proportion of the total healing will be received over time.

It would definetly for situations where you´d spam your shield. However it would improve survivability for situations where you streak away/los/darkdeal/meditate or for builds utilizing dodgeroll to a greater extend.

Keep in mind the thought is to reduce the facetanking gameplay approach.

I don´t deny that sorc would need other improvements/reworks on core skills as irylia illustrates in his video. However this is purely focused on providing a hopefully vaible and fun alternatives to giving shields a casttime.

I just want to state that if you are shield spamming you are already a dead sorc, you will run out of resources. There is a difference between reapplying your shields because they are severely fractured or down from an attack and the mindless shield spam people refer to on the forums. You have to learn to balance resources, which IMO has been largely forgotten do to cp. You have to know when to go on attack and when to play defensive and not all defense are shields or streak a good player knows when to use what defenses and can tell when to go offensive. Also, there are many ways to counter a magsorc and shields out there, you have to know how to use them and how to time it which IMO people forget to take into account, there are roots and stuns and shields have a special foe called Shield Breaker. I do like your idea for dark deal to be an instant cast to get you out of execute range. If it was reliable I would definitely use that instead of healing ward. I will give you shields need to be reworked but not nerfed into the ground. The only way I see for your idea to work is for Battle Spirit to be adjusted so where shields are not cut in half in pvp maybe a percentage such as 75% so that they are effective against higher damage. Also remember oblivion and bleed damage are not reduced by shields.

Tonturri

Galarthor wrote: »

@Derra

I don't dislike the idea in general. It actually sounds interesting, hower, I think there are several issues that have to be address first in order to implement such a shield change.

1) 10000 PvE turns in 5000 PvP which is pretty much nothing.
2) 3000 each second in PvE turn into 1500 each second in PvP, which is not even worth mentioning.
3) There is no space on sorc bars for HoTs to actually suppelement the "Shield HoT".
4) 1vX / outnumbered survivability is already very bad on live and will be exorbitantly worse due to the lower inital shield.
5) Shields on live are already pretty weak where you have to recast them every 1 or 2 sec even in many 1v1 situations. Cutting shield strength in half will make the problem only worse, increasing the need to shield stack - something we want to get rid off.
6) Lack of bar space to compensate for lower shields.

A solution could be something very similar to the Warden Shields, just not only for ranged attacks - i.e. have shields have a large size, but only absorb 3 to 5 attacks. At the same time get rid off stacking Ward + Annulment.

Though I still believe, there isn't really an issue with shields other than the psychological issue of not seeing HP drop when you hit the target thus depriving the opponent of a sense of accomplishment. Sorcs stacking Ward + Annulment can be annoying, but so can be templars combinging block + BoL, DK combining block + heal, NBs combining dodge + cloak, ....
The principle is the same, these combos are even often times far stronger than stacking 2 shields, but they don't deprive the opponent of a sense of accomplishment and are thus not perceived as strong as / stronger than shields.

Surely it couldn't be too hard to mess around with percentages. Discounting (not entirely - but you seem to have 'moved' on from it and built up to something else) the idea just because an extremely variable number doesn't sound reasonable is a bit premature, I think. It could just as easily be a 25% or 20% decrease, then allocate out double the 20/25% over a duration that can also be fiddled with.

Also, having the shield absorb a certain number of attacks is quite interesting, though I think it'd suffer from the same issue of having horrible scaling against multiple sources of damage. Still, I think an 'absorbs 1 attack' could easily be scattered around sorc's toolkit. Now that I think about it, they dooo have a couple useless passives that could use some love...in particular Blood Magic, which has been garbage for the longest time. It'd be cool if, instead of a heal, it was 'absorb the next direct damage ability'. That would tie in a little bit of much-needed defense to sorc's frag procs, and help a bit with the scaling issue of any health investment on a magsorc being near totally pointless.

So, I think it would be a nice supplementary defense, but would not suffice as a primary. ZOS could really do some nice stuff with Rebate and Expert Summoner, too. Sorcs could really use passives that actually interact with skills they slot, due to the - as you said - issue with bar space that has been exacerbated by the removal of the Overload bar.

Could even fiddle about with having some passives add a 'on shield expiration' effect or something.

Edit: Really, I don't think anything is wrong with shields at the moment either, but they could definitely be made a bit more...flexible, or have more interesting interactions with other defenses available (as previously they didn't benefit from armor res, prompting magicka builds - sorcs in particular - to ignore armor res for the most part in favor of other bonuses, so it's nice to at least have that option now). ZOS seems intent on flat-out nerfing shields, where they should be focusing on changing them mechanically but not outright nerfing.

jarydf

The bit I don't get is I would have thought the problem with shields is the stacking part.

I would have thought they would make a change that means shields don't stack at all rather than the cast time would have been a more direct way to achieve their desired outcome.

When you only have 10 skill slots having to apply up to 3 shields over and over again seems like a pretty stupid way to have to protect yourself. Especially considering they also seem to be pushing pets that take up 2 slots each.

NyxWrench

There's been a few good ideas proposed. Some meandering thoughts on them.

1) Splitting up shields like Dark Exchange was: partial up front, and then a refresh over time.

As a larger concept, it's interesting, but I'm not entirely sure on the implementation. It does sound like a heal-over-time effect that's healing your 'fake' health instead of your real health.

An alternative take would be a damage-reduction shield. Rather than temporary hit points that get eaten up as you take damage, have it be a defense that just reduces damage taken by a flat amount — with the flat amount decaying over time.

2) If shields are to be used proactively for defense, they need to provide support for a complementary offense. A proactive defense without the ability to combine it with other tools is empty and useless. It only works if you can combine it with other prepared mechanisms (offense being an easy route, but certain support or debuff actions would also be useful). That would turn sorc into a 'planning' class instead of a reactive class.


3) An alternative that came to mind (sort of combining both of the above ideas) when reading Derra's post was making a stun-shield. For example, a 'shield' that creates an electric field around you that stuns anyone that hits you. That would be something that fits in the cast-time mold, because it's setting up an opportunity to counterattack. (And might even obsolete Rune Prison.)

You cast a shield that provides a flat reduction in damage taken that decays over time (ie: not temporary hit points that go away as soon as you get hit), but that has an increasing chance of stunning the opponent when it hits you. For example:

0 seconds: 5000 damage reduction, 10% chance of stun
1 second: 4000 damage reduction, 20% chance of stun
2 seconds: 3000 damage reduction, 30% chance of stun
3 seconds: 2000 damage reduction, 40% chance of stun
4 seconds: 1000 damage reduction, 50% chance of stun

And no, those numbers are not in any way balanced; they're just to illustrate the idea. You likely want the duration to be decently long, too. 10 seconds would be minimum; probably want at least 20 seconds.

Anyway, from a PVP perspective, your opponent would have to choose between attacking you early when there's a low chance of stun, but having to penetrate a ton of damage resistance, or attacking you late when their damage can more easily get through, but more likely getting stunned themselves and opening themselves up for a counterattack.

In PVE, when you're not the tank, it's a strong defense early on, but you won't really get much benefit from the stun side. If you are the tank, it's a fantastic defense against lesser mobs (probably giving sorcs a solid off-tank role), and a pretty solid defense against larger opponents (up to a point).

I would probably also say that this sort of defense would go 'under' normal shields (like resistance pre-Murkmire), so you can't stack it with shields if you want to gain the effect. Shields remain a reactive defense, while this becomes a more considered proactive defense.

Anyway, that's the sort of thing I could see being worth a cast time, because it's not something you need to be re-casting constantly. Letting its full duration run gives you more benefits in other ways, providing opportunities that you can capitalize on.

Maybe add a passive that gives a damage boost to enemies that have been stunned by this ability, or at least have another ability that does so, or provide some other bonus effect. It would probably be better to have different abilities each have different bonus effects when applied to enemies affected by this shield, giving you more opportunity for planned counterattacks, rather than just flat bonus damage.


Looking at how I've built this... It's sort of a combination of Lightning Form and Defensive Rune. Hmmm. Part of the importance of Conjured Ward was that it applied to pets as well. It would be interesting to make it a combination effect. Something like:

• Lightning Form: Defense, small lightning damage.
• Defensive Rune: Stuns next person that attacks you. If cast while Lightning Form is active, it lasts as long as Lightning Form, but has a percent chance to stun based on duration (increasing as Lightning Form's remaining duration drops), rather than be guaranteed for the next attack.
• Conjured Ward: Apply personal buffs to your pet while this is slotted. Activating this gives an HP shield. If cast while Lightning Form is active, turns this into a damage reduction effect that lasts as long as Lightning Form is up, with its strength determined by Lightning Form's remaining duration.

Idea definitely needs refinement, I'm kinda liking it. If it was split into the combination effect version, it wouldn't need the cast time, because you'd be dealing with casting multiple abilities to get the full effect, which in essence creates its own cast time.

Drdeath20

I love the buffs we got. Stronger longer lasting shields!