The first version of crown crates that initially showed up on the PTS was really really bad. Totally unethical and exploitative.

They've made enough player-friendly changes to them that currently they're not that bad compared to most versions of loot boxes in other games. I still don't like them, and I'll still never spend a single penny on one, and I'll still encourage other players not to buy them, but they're not as bad as you see in a lot of other games - especially EA's big money makers.

Here's the interesting thing though. When crown store gifting was recently integrated into ESO (I'm not talking about the previous concierge service that they used to do - I'm talking about the current system where you can just select that you're buying something as a gift), I noticed that there was an option for gifting crown crate items purchased with gems. I was going to use it to use up some of the gems I've earned from free crates on my 2nd & 3rd accounts to gift things to my main account, but then I noticed that although the option is there, it can't be selected.

I wondered why that was, but didn't give it too much thought until this letter from the 16 gambling commissions came out a few days ago. The key message in there is that they consider loot boxes to violate their existing gambling regulations when it is possible for the digital items received to be somehow cashed out. They noted that it doesn't matter if the cashing out is endorsed by the game company, or whether it's facilitated by a third party. As long as ZOS keeps gifting turned off for crown crate items, they're avoiding the possibility of being lumped in with this, so I would suspect that makes them safe from being considered gambling under current laws.

In other words, I think ESO's crown crates are safe until and unless countries start changing their laws to specifically address loot boxes.

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

If gaming companies are forced to remove loot boxes then they will just use other methods to generate revenue.
Increased prices in crown store, higher sub price, move to a pay to play only structure, etc.

They are a business and they need to make money.

Exactly.

The first if is if anything actually comes of this new action that affects ESO crates.
The second if is if the crates can merely be tweaked and be in compliance.
After that it just comes down to how Zos would further monetize.

Any smart business is already looking at the next page just in case.

Blizzards WoW has 0 gambling crates, but they can get by it since they're nearly the largest company in the world

What Blizzard has is the token though.
$20 RL money. You buy a token for $20 and put on the AH so you can get in game gold.
Someone else buys the token for in game gold and uses the token to pay their sub.

So Blizzard makes $5 extra for each token used for subs cause a sub only costs $15/month.
And wow is a mandatory sub to play.

What I've never gotten is that I just won't spend real money for a mystery box. Every crate I've gotten was free and everything I've bought related to the crate store was via the resultant free gems. Yet, there are plenty of things hidden in crates I wouldn't mind buying straight up if they were in the crown store where I can see exactly what I'm getting for my money.

Guess what I'm trying to say is that putting all the crate items in the crown store would earn more money from me. Am I really the minority?

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

What I've never gotten is that I just won't spend real money for a mystery box. Every crate I've gotten was free and everything I've bought related to the crate store was via the resultant free gems. Yet, there are plenty of things hidden in crates I wouldn't mind buying straight up if they were in the crown store where I can see exactly what I'm getting for my money.

Guess what I'm trying to say is that putting all the crate items in the crown store would earn more money from me. Am I really the minority?

I can't say if you're in the minority or not, but I'm exactly the same way. I'll get things from free crates, and I'll convert things to gems and buy things with them that I want, but I'll never spend a penny on a crate. On the other hand, there are plenty of things in crates that I would have bought outright for crowns.

I know that there are a lot of people who feel the same way, but I have no clue if we're the minority or the majority.

/sigh

Far better things that the worlds governments could concern themselves with here.

Don't like the loot crate model? Don't participate.

I don't care if it's considered gambling or not, it's a totally voluntary activity.

Kuwhar wrote: »

/sigh

Far better things that the worlds governments could concern themselves with here.

Don't like the loot crate model? Don't participate.

I don't care if it's considered gambling or not, it's a totally voluntary activity.

Yes, it's certainly strange that gambling commissions would be concerned about regulating gambling, isn't it?

vamp_emily wrote: »

lol @Sevn

Why would they "shut down" if a lot of players are saying things like "I will buy if you put the item in the crown store"?

I think one thing people don't understand is it really doesn't matter if some countries are not against crown crates. If majority of EU countries change the law and make crown crates illegal then companies are going to be forced to change. Either they quit selling the game in EU or they remove the scam boxes.

Something similar happened in 2018 with General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) gaming companies had to change the way they collect user data or decide not to sell the games in EU ( this had nothing to do with U.S). If i'm not mistaken all gaming companies complied with GDPR and did not shut down or quit selling to EU.

This is a move in the right direction. No matter how smart/old you are, we all need protection.

I've never liked the thought of "We're the government and we're here to help".
Not everyone is so irresponsible that they need the government to intervene to protect them from themselves.

Turelus wrote: »

Let's wait and see what happens first before we start declaring victory.

The fact it's at least being investigated and looked into actively though is a nice start. Also remember that companies could always up the prices of items to offset the loss from loot boxes, victories could fast become defeats.

A company called Games Workshop tried that. For over 10 years prices just kept going up and up. While still making millions in profits, year after year profits were going down. So while profit was in the millions it wasn't where they were before. Funny the company did a 180, profits are in the tens of millions now and more people are playing.

So if Zenimax is just going to raise prices instead of fixing what is wrong and making an awesome game, it will not go well. While they can still be profitable, just like the other company I mentioned is also a publicly traded company they will have to answer why millions are being made instead of tens of millions.

Also what is the business of Zenimax Online Studios? Is it video games or gambling?

DanteYoda wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

they can't ban the gambling in games, that way they should close all types of casinos or slot games. They will just add one more row at the game's description: "contains gambling"

Slots and casinos are not aiming at children and under age minors.. Game companies are.

Funny because the vast majority of games out there with loot boxes are rated T or M games not intended for child audiences.

I have yet to see a kid's game offer this feature.

Its not the beginning of the end, its the End of The Beginning!

As soon as the crates were available without purchase, as a log-in reward or leveling reward, it was sorted from a legal standpoint.

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

I honestly will never understand how anyone can be addicted to gambling and need regulation to protect themselves from it. I really won't.

I don’t either-

they hard wired their brain to deliver 'euphoria' on command, but have to keep upping the stakes
because dopamine is the gift your brain makes!

Runs wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Premature to think ESO will have to ditch crates. If anything, smart companies will make adjustments if needed. Cash shop will still be strong revenue regardless.

Not premature to think this. Belgium is charging EA with criminal misconduct for not complying. The fact that EA pushed harder has caused 15 other countries to follow suite.

How are EA's loot boxes sold?

Our crates are sold as crates full of consumables where you have a chance to get something of greater value in addition to the consumables that you are buying. 100% of the time you will get the consumables that you are technically paying for.

Matt Firor wrote:

The concept of Crown Crates is pretty easy: for a 400 crown purchase, you get a crate full of consumables as well as a chance at customization and convenience items. Crown Crates are obtainable exclusively in the Crown Store, and the consumables they contain are the same ones that you are probably already purchasing directly in the Crown Store. The difference is that you have a chance to get additional items in a Crown Crate – the same items that are on sale in the Crown Store. There is also a rarer chance to receive a discontinued limited-time-offer Crown Store item. The rarest items are Crown-Crate only items that we will cycle out every quarter or so for a new set.

If you do receive a special premium item in a Crate that you have already purchased from the Crown Store, instead of a duplicate, you will be given Crown Gems. These Crown Gems can then be spent on a (new) section of the Crown Store to purchase another item.

So, in a nutshell: you purchase a crate of consumables, and you get the chance for cool gear that was once on the store but was discontinued – and a really rare chance of unique customization and convenience items.

Thank you for posting this. Thing is, I don't see this. When I see the "flashy" apex mounts I am buying crates to try and get them, not any consumables.

Also how come the ratio is so poor? I mean it would take say 5 crowns to buy something but you only get one crown for exchanging it? If this really wasn't gambling shouldn't it be a one to one ratio in return of something we don't want?

People need to be careful what they wish for. Those who live in states or countries that don't allow crown crates won't just be unable to buy them if and when they want them, they will very likely be excluded from the free offers too. Meanwhile any fall in revenue from lower sales will be made up somewhere else and there may not be any choice about that.

All of which is premature speculation as has already been pointed out. Not only is there no substantial ban on lootboxes yet but the sort of gambling boxes the lawmakers are going after are very different to the model used by ZOS with crown crates.

JJBoomer wrote: »

why would anyone here DEFEND loot/premium crates such as this? There is literally no positive for the player. They are literally specifically designed to get your money that you would other wise save or invest wisely. I don't see how anyone in this community could defend their existence in any kind of valid way.

There's this thing called "disposable income"...money not needed for necessities.
Some people like to buy clothes, some like to travel, others buy books & movies.
And then there are some that like to buy gaming loot boxes.

There are plenty of people that can enjoy gambling responsibly. Take a look at Vegas..not all those people have gambling addictions. And not everyone has this urge to go to Vegas to gamble.

Loot boxes are no different. They are in the store..buy them or not.

And I am not defending loot boxes. What I am defending is the right for a gaming company to offer them.

Juju_beans wrote: »

JJBoomer wrote: »

why would anyone here DEFEND loot/premium crates such as this? There is literally no positive for the player. They are literally specifically designed to get your money that you would other wise save or invest wisely. I don't see how anyone in this community could defend their existence in any kind of valid way.

There's this thing called "disposable income"...money not needed for necessities.
Some people like to buy clothes, some like to travel, others buy books & movies.
And then there are some that like to buy gaming loot boxes.

There are plenty of people that can enjoy gambling responsibly. Take a look at Vegas..not all those people have gambling addictions. And not everyone has this urge to go to Vegas to gamble. I don't hear anyone crying about regulating casinos because people spend too much money there.

Loot boxes are no different. They are in the store..buy them or not.

And I am not defending loot boxes. What I am defending is the right for a gaming company to offer them.