Priyasekarssk wrote: »

RC is undodegable for a reason to counter NB cloak dodges. People initially made it for a reason to open up the counter play. Now NB sniper will snipe cloak spam with all ridiculous debuffs , without any counter play. Streak 4-5 times to get the NB and die as per your suggestion . Medium armor builds move faster than light armor. Excellent suggestion. Try it with magic sorc.

RC should be undodegeable always. Decrease range , decrease duration to 2-3 seconds. Have no damage or decrease damage. Fix the break free then.

Eveyone play NB & DK or quit playing . Thats the only solution.

Okay, step by step:

Why this change was needed (but not good):

RC was undodgeable as a counter to everyone who uses dodge as a main defense.
Those who utilize dodge a lot are usually squishy as they are in medium armor (heavy armor doesn't grant dodge cost reduction, medium does which grants just a tiny bit more armor resistance than light armor, but without the benefit of shields - trade off - kinda fair so to say) and they also have no or not much health boni (not through passives nor through most used medium armor sets). The usual damage combo (frags, curse, fury, meteor, light attack, [cage]) was usually enough to 1 shot a medium armor build.

Sounds fair since it's a huge combo, right? But here comes the issue: it being undodgeable would be okay, if it was blockable. But it isn't. This resulted in unavoidable one shot combos - if you couldn't interrupt their combo via stun (which requires them to not be cc immune - a variable you can't control) or if your own CC immunity isn't up (which can't be kept up 100% - rightfully so btw). And all that from 28-40m range. Mind that most medium armor users utilize melee stuns, even the CC from Bow is melee.

This left us with no reliable counterplay. Now you can say "but fear, but fossilize are unavoidable as well". Right, but those aren't paired with 4-5 dmg impacts in one global cooldown. I'm not gonna compare any further effects of those CCs to RC like range, debuffs etc. because it doesn't matter to the pain point.

To introduce counterplay means to make it either dodgeable or blockable. MagSorcs have a hard time against BlockTanks since they have no debuffs, no sustained pressure and only Curse is unblockable. So dropping the ability to drop block would render them even less effective against anyone who can click the right mouse button when the sorc combo comes in.

Other option was to make it dodgeable. This would mean a buff to dodgers, right, but this also takes some things into account.
1) The sorc combo with meteor means you have an undodgeable (meteor) and an unblockable (cage) CC in that combo. If the Meteor drops he can either block or dodge and most of the times he can't do both. Does that mean it can't be partly avoided? No. But it still gives options to land it.
2) Sorcs already have an undodgeable stun in streak . But here's the twist. It's stun part is "underperforming" and goes against the ranged characteristics. But if we're honest, if you fight someone that's on a melee build, you're into melee range anyway.

So making it dodgeable is, at least from my given point of view, the better choice. But here comes the part from the top, that it wasn't an allround good change. Why? Because of many reasons.

A ) RC doesn't only became dodgeable, it got it's duration shortened, it's damage effectively removed (usually they break free, and if they dont: if you can't kill them in 3.5s the also nerfed damage won't change much). + they are on to more nerfs. All that without any compensation. No DoT, no debuffs, nothing.

B ) Sorcs undodgeable stun is lackluster. Not only the mentioned melee range (which isn't an issue all the times tbf), not only the broken parts of streak/BoL (whiplash, usability on uneven terrain, cost increase) but mainly because the stun duration is so short that it doesn't open an offensive window to the magsorc. Mind that you also have to turn around and can't use it for offensive set up if the opponent is near a cliff.

What do we make of these two insights? What I got out of it was already mentioned. Compensation for Cage, fix and buffs to streak.

Why I think your proposed changes to rune cage are bad:

"RC should be undodegeable always. Decrease range , decrease duration to 2-3 seconds. Have no damage or decrease damage. Fix the break free then."

Leaving it undodgeable and unblockable causes imbalances to medium armor builds and reinforces an heavy armor meta. Ironically magsorcs have issues to kill heavy armor builds with a tad of defense, health and the knowledge when to block.

To decrease the range also means that in your snipespam scenario you, the magsorc, has to close the gap while the sniping NB has a range advantage. BTW how would you close the gap to come into the then lowered rune cage range? Sprint? Or would you streak? See, you don't really need to close the gap completely (at first), since all skills but streak are ranged.

But you're right about the stun length and the break free bug (although I don't see the bug as an specific RC issue but rather a general one).


Tl;dr:

Introducing counterplay was necessary. Issue is that they didn't give something in return to deal with the dodge spammers.

E: typos and deleted some parts before this gets deleted as well.

_Salty_ wrote: »

Bottom line for me is stam sorc doesn't feel like an actual class. Every nightblade passive is usefull no matter what the spec. They should be the baseline that every class is balanced on. Ps. My main from day one console is a nightblade so im not bashing nightblades.

I've been saying this for a while now. Agree 120%. My main for 3 years is a stam sorc. After running the new dungeons last night I'm done with it. Going to magblade. I can pull the same dps with it if not higher now and I'm not the greatest magblade by any means at all. The fact that I can do just as good or better while I derp hardcore on a class I've only had since fang lair compared to a class I've played for 3 years is depressing.

Nightblades do not need a nerf. They are what the standards for other classes should strive for.

It took me a while to write all this, this may be pretty hard to understand, and yes it's complex and may never be added.

I just want to show how cool the magsorc could be ... Sadly we will stay a weaker NB copy paste.

First I will write the sorc pain points:

• Sustain on Magsorc DD. In Cyrodiil with Cp It may be possible to use dark conversion in combat, but it's a suicide without CP and nobody will ever use this skill in PVE.
• Pets, it started with Morrowind, there were some nice pet and no pet build, then they introduced clockwork city and the mechanical acuity set ... Then it became BIS for mag with DragonBones ( You could not use it on pet sorc, 4 moondancer - 2 llambris - 5 necropotence was better with pet ) and alsmost all my friends and teamates started to say pets were garbage and useless. Now, even with the mechanical acuity set nerf... pet builds are still rare in endgame ( see reasons below )
  
  There is 2 setup coming to my mind with pets: Full dot build with HA ( they buffed the LA damage) and current sorc build with scamp instead of bound aegis ( extremely hard to sustain) + keep in mind scamp take 2 bar slot, cost 3K magicka + can die + they get stuck everywhere ( behind invisible wall ect ... ) + sometimes count as a member of the group ( trigger chain lightning in VAA ... Static Lightning field AOEs under pet's feets in Vas ect ...)

- Crystal Shard
- Idea #1 Nobody hard cast frag in pve, same thing in PVP ( except overload sorcerer, and this is the only case):
Crystal frag should work differently depending on how we use it ( see below )
reducing the cast time would be a good start. We want it to be an unique ability since it's our main skill !

A few example below for Crystal Frag :

• " If you damage an enemy with a frag proc THEN hard cast a frag .. this will grab the enemy "
  While crystal blast could Aoe grab up to X enemies in the same situation or drain up to X magicka of the target.
  
• " If you hard cast a frag THEN use a frag proc on the same enemy, it will increase Blood magic passive effectiveness" it mean the passive will heals you for 40% of your max health instead of 12% - I really like this idea, you engage the fight by hard-casting a frag ... Then you choose if you want to deal increased damage( = use the proc ) or keep it for later under 30/40% of your max health.
  While Crystal Blast Could increase ( and proc ) the Persistence passive effectiveness and reduce the cost of your next skill by 30%.
  
• "[...] The next crystal fragment will be instant, deal 10% more damage, cost 50% less magicka and off balance the target.
  While crystal blast would Stun the target.
  
• "[...] If you don't use the proc, fragments will turn arround you faster and faster and deal X damage up to 5 enemies in a X meters area arround you.
  While crystal blast could turn arround you during 3 sec and absorb 1 projectile if you don't use the proc

- Idea #2 Make both morph interesting ! one should stun and the other should give utility and increased damage, maybe mix both idea?

• Crystal fragment should get the 10% increased damage back ( 10% currently, it was 20% before), also off-balance the target or deal increased damage if you are melee.
  
• Crystal Blast should also be able to proc, cost 50% less and stun the target.

one should stun, the other should give utility and increased damage. This would make both choice interesting in PVP since we would need to choose between crystal frag/clench(CC) combo and Crystal Blast(CC)/force pulse combo.

Why I think 10% increased damage on crystal frag are not enough ?
Keep in mind clench is reflectable and deal less damage than force pulse ( and more telegraphed), 10% increased damage on crystal frag would not be enough to make the crystal frag/clench combo interesting in PVP instead of crystal blast/Force pulse if you see what i mean ?

Off Balance would help with sustain ( this is what i mean by " utility" ).

Maybe frag could proc on Both bar ?


- Power Overload

• Change it, so you could still do your rotation and swap bar, and each light attack with a weapon would deal additional damage until you run out or toggle off the ultimate. make the ultimate deplete 30/35 ultimates every 2 sec, it would reward skilful gameplay.
  Charge your fists weapons with the power of the storm, Light attacks become Lightning bolts dealing X additional damage, and your heavy attacks blast enemies in target area near the target for X additional damage. Both attacks restores 300 magicka ( this would help with sustain a bit ), after X Light/heavy attack the power of the storm become uncontrollable, you will need to toggle the ultimate off during X sec or it will restore slightly more magicka and deal more damage at the expense of your movement speed ( slow you down up to 80% of your base speed ) You lose 30/35 ultimates until you run out or the ability is toggled off. you can not gain ultimate while using this ultimate.
  
  I want it to be an ultimate you need to manage, something that reward skilful gameplay but also allow the player to do more damage at the expense of his movement speed.
  
• And keep the Energy Overload morph as it is, for those who want to play with a third bar and/or gank players, this would make both choise interresting.

- Encase
- Idea #1 make it a Dot.

• Restraining Prison: Call daedric shard from the earth under one enemy, they follow the target and deal X damage ( less than liquid ofc ) over 12 seconds.

- Idea #2 Make it an unique skill.

• Restraining Prison: You can apply this dot to 2 target at the same times, if you use your instant crystal ( crystal proc) it will create 2 crystal ( one in each hand ) and bombard both enemy at the same times.
  
  I really like the idea of a skill which change how another skill work.

- Dark Conversion
- Idea #1 make it work like a toggle.

• Dark Conversion: Bargain with darkness to restore X magicka and X health each 2 seconds until you get CC or the ability is toogled off.
  
  You could still use others skill/La/Ha while this skill drain your stamina. While magNB get their magicka and health back by doing dps ( la ) we would get it by losing stamina. ( It should not drain stamina when you are CC ).

^^^^^

This is everything!!! Lol

cpuScientist wrote: »

Ok guys cage has been Nerfed. And nothing else addressed sadly. We are now in a worst spot than Dragonbones. But this is a good thing! The forums will hopefully turn it's hateful never enough gaze at some other FOTM. Long enough for us to get the things we feel really need to be fixed.

So let's go back and list our pain points and list our wishes for the class. This fell to page 6 guys, NO! Let's get in early, things need to get better!

Let's try to get the class back on track in PvE and PvP.

Pain points PvE:
1. Sustain is really bad, our only sustain tool on long fights is Overload, which is dead and has been for a long time in PvE. Please find some way to ha e sustain either tied to a skill like critsurge or in the passives, something is badly needed.
2. Bar space. Still having to slot useless bound armor even if only one bar, it is a DPS passive ability with a crappy tank active ability. Just make it an armor skill, give it a useful active or delete it and put the max mag in a passive.

Pain points PvP:
1. Utter lack of debuffs, to deal with tankier opponents. The class is a burst class is what's always said. Well so is Nightblade and they have debuffs out the wazoo. Give something a dot or defile or something to help the Sorc deal.
2. Streak momentum loss and just general feel of this escape skill. If used offensively it should not stack cost. Something. This skill is inferior to things like cloak and at times sorint or gap closer. Yet it is hit with a penalty for spamming it. And it roots.

There is alot more but that's all for now I guess. Let's get this Sorc train ROLLING!

The problem is that the fotm controls the forum and acts like the victim. For once we had what we needed in pvp to control a fight against stamina players who have superior movement and damage just to have it stripped away with no compensation. And what do sorcs do? Roll over and play dead... like always.

usmguy1234 wrote: »

The problem is that the fotm controls the forum and acts like the victim. For once we had what we needed in pvp to control a fight against stamina players who have superior movement and damage just to have it stripped away with no compensation. And what do sorcs do? Roll over and play dead... like always.

So true, for well over a year Stam-Domination has ruled PVP excepting broken Godmode Ball groups using cheese Monster sets. Earthgore etc...

What I saw in RC was parity bringing Magsorc up to par. I would have liked to see Templars thrown a bone to compete more in PVP.

In my opinion .... The guitar hero fighters have the advantage right now. The players that spam 1 rotation the longest wins.

The psychology of balance in eso is culturally stagnant, and creatively misguided towards bias views of classes. Not to mention if ZOS is doing this on purpose, to create imbalance to give an illusion to balance.

But that's just me ... and too be honest I really don't know where the game is going anymore.
There are no goals posted anymore no vision - no real feedback from Zos.


@Crixus8000 And what part of that would be powerful ? Already it does 2-4k damage in PvP gives minor expedition and last for 15 sec seems basic. Reducing the damage to half and 1 to 2k and removing a negative effect every 3 seconds or removing 5 negative effects at the end of the 15 sec duration ?

What would you do ?

My Current Pain Points:

Overload:
-Cannot access the bar if you have less than the minimum ultimate
-Casting an ability while on the Overload bar locks you out of the 'barswap', due to the nature of the 'barswap' being a GCD.
-The 'barswap' animation into the OL bar is too long.

Crystal Fragments:
-Cannot proc while casting on another bar (given the Sorcs need for multiple bars, this really hampers the ability) (should be more like the NB merciless in that it doesn't matter what bar you're on, you just need to be on the bar to cast the empower)
-No audio cue to better give the player an indication that the ability proc is ready. (the glowing hands is barely anything, especially when your char is filled with VFX already)

Ozazz wrote: »

its really depressing how this class has been regressing for years now while people still have the miss conception of being the best and truly undermine the player skill it takes to have success in pvp! Any stam class in pvp will treat you better in outnumbered situations modernly speaking. its pretty evident that zos had no regard for the skillful game play frag cc implemented in the game, so much of open world success and dueling revolved around it, not to mention if you were on a magic sorcerer vs another, the entire fight revolved around the cc. the skill has taken a 30% damage reduction, with might of the guild and they still deny us our cc mean while they debuff our only other reliable cc. there's a reason more people play stam sorc then magic lets be honest here . my 2 points would have to be frag cc and some type of snare removal thank you for your time.

More people play stamsorc over magsorc? Are you mad? All i see in pvp is magsorcs.

IAVITNI wrote: »

_Salty_ wrote: »

Ozazz wrote: »

its really depressing how this class has been regressing for years now while people still have the miss conception of being the best and truly undermine the player skill it takes to have success in pvp! Any stam class in pvp will treat you better in outnumbered situations modernly speaking. its pretty evident that zos had no regard for the skillful game play frag cc implemented in the game, so much of open world success and dueling revolved around it, not to mention if you were on a magic sorcerer vs another, the entire fight revolved around the cc. the skill has taken a 30% damage reduction, with might of the guild and they still deny us our cc mean while they debuff our only other reliable cc. there's a reason more people play stam sorc then magic lets be honest here . my 2 points would have to be frag cc and some type of snare removal thank you for your time.

More people play stamsorc over magsorc? Are you mad? All i see in pvp is magsorcs.

Pretty sure this is coming from a solo/small scale perspective. More and more of these players have been switching from mag to stam. Even towards the end of SS as everyone knew a nerf was coming.

Solo/small scale is the best indicator of individual class health relative to other classes because players are almost entirely relying on their own character to play. Even in small scale. To clarify, small scale is really groups of 4 or less where MAYBE 1 skill/set is changed but for the most part, those players can detach from the group and perform nearly as well as if they were built for solo.

Zerg and co-ordinated play is a weaker indicator of overall class health and is better at highlighting overperforming mechanics of the class since those players are usually specialized to optimize the use of said broken mechanics.

Dueling hightlights the best cheese in the game.

All I see is nightblades in PvP

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

_Salty_ wrote: »

Ozazz wrote: »

its really depressing how this class has been regressing for years now while people still have the miss conception of being the best and truly undermine the player skill it takes to have success in pvp! Any stam class in pvp will treat you better in outnumbered situations modernly speaking. its pretty evident that zos had no regard for the skillful game play frag cc implemented in the game, so much of open world success and dueling revolved around it, not to mention if you were on a magic sorcerer vs another, the entire fight revolved around the cc. the skill has taken a 30% damage reduction, with might of the guild and they still deny us our cc mean while they debuff our only other reliable cc. there's a reason more people play stam sorc then magic lets be honest here . my 2 points would have to be frag cc and some type of snare removal thank you for your time.

More people play stamsorc over magsorc? Are you mad? All i see in pvp is magsorcs.

Pretty sure this is coming from a solo/small scale perspective. More and more of these players have been switching from mag to stam. Even towards the end of SS as everyone knew a nerf was coming.

Solo/small scale is the best indicator of individual class health relative to other classes because players are almost entirely relying on their own character to play. Even in small scale. To clarify, small scale is really groups of 4 or less where MAYBE 1 skill/set is changed but for the most part, those players can detach from the group and perform nearly as well as if they were built for solo.

Zerg and co-ordinated play is a weaker indicator of overall class health and is better at highlighting overperforming mechanics of the class since those players are usually specialized to optimize the use of said broken mechanics.

Dueling hightlights the best cheese in the game.

All I see is nightblades in PvP

Most of the time, I can't see them. ;-)

No but really. I've read now a couple of times that "stamsorc is the new beast". It always gives me a good laugh bc nearly nothing changed for them this year in a good and useful way. Okay, bound armaments and the block passive but that's it. *

But I begin to see where this is coming from. If you nerf the counterpart (magSorc) to a point where there isn't any reason to play them over, say magblade, it's only natural that some players abandon the spec. Even @Biro123 says he switched to NB, still hope he's joking. However, this means a relative increase of a spec (stamsorc) that formerly flew under the radar of recognition because they were neither at the top nor the bottom.

I have no doubt that once the nerf-train has succesfully slaughtered what's left of magsorcs (shieldstacking OP, anyone?), they will set full speed ahead at stamsorcs. In the "Sorcgrounds" thread some guy already claims them being untargetable due to swift jewelry while dealing constant damage with their one class damage ability. We all know where this might end.

* That being said, I still think stamsorc is in an okay spot but it misses what I deem vital: a soul, a purpose, a theme or simply class identity. It benfits only from half the passives and has one single class damage ability. The utility part is great in surge, dark deal and streak, although it's well know that streak has it's issues that should be fixed.

The buff to Bound Armor showed good intentions but it's still nothing but an utility skill that effectively needs to be double slotted. Sure, you can only one-bar it, but still it's a dead spot you won't use often in both PvE and PvP. Obviously it's meant for tanks but somehow it's passive parts scream damage. So maybe make this skill and both morphs more useful and add a snare removal (maybe a short immunity too) to it's active component? For a class designed to be mobile or to kite it's strange they got nothing in their toolkit to deal with snares. This could elevate the skill to be more than just a dead spot on the bar that never get's activated.

Hey! Don't be tagging me in a sorc thread! I don't play the class anymore!!

To be honest, I've dabbled in other classes over the last year or so.. stamplar/stamblade/magblade//stamsorc - but always mained magsorc.
But now I'm simply no longer playing sorc - Playing stamblade now, mostly. I suck at it - still don't have half the weapons passives unlocked that I need, nor undaunted mettle, nor a fully-honed build(workable - but not honed) - but do just as well as I did on my sorc... It's pretty sad, really.

IAVITNI wrote: »

Pretty sure this is coming from a solo/small scale perspective. More and more of these players have been switching from mag to stam. Even towards the end of SS as everyone knew a nerf was coming.

Solo/small scale is the best indicator of individual class health relative to other classes because players are almost entirely relying on their own character to play. Even in small scale. To clarify, small scale is really groups of 4 or less where MAYBE 1 skill/set is changed but for the most part, those players can detach from the group and perform nearly as well as if they were built for solo.

Zerg and co-ordinated play is a weaker indicator of overall class health and is better at highlighting overperforming mechanics of the class since those players are usually specialized to optimize the use of said broken mechanics.

Dueling hightlights the best cheese in the game.

Nice post. That pretty much sums it up. Not sure ZOS understands that though.

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

All I see is nightblades in PvP

What the hell are you talking about? NBs are by far the weakest class in this game. They have 0 damage, no survivability, no utility. Only b/c there are some god-like players around you occasionally can see a NB.

StamSorc Pain Points:
1. Hurricane is tickle damage even at max capacity.
2. Utter lack of useful passives.
3. Utter lack of useful skills.
4. Utter lack of class identity.

Ideas for stamSorc:
1. Buff hurricane damage, remove the defense component. Give a snare removal 2 second immunity. Now because we want the damage to build we have to give that up to remove snares balanced I'd say...
2. Crystal Blast melee proc slam the ground for smallish AOE or just whallop somebody with a fist of diamonds.
3. Bound armament, the active is useless throw the defense buff here let our eyes glow like the mag one.
4. Redo passives puhlease.
5. Stam wind based overload
6. Stam wind based atronach
7. THIS IS NOT SORC SPECIFIC, Make wrecking blow morph instant cast, reduce the damage to be more in line with other Stam instant abilities of course. Leave dizzy with the cast time whatever.

Thank you. MAKE SORCS GREAT AGAIN!