Optimizing Mitigation [Calculator]

paulsimonps · July 2018

So I have been wanting to try and figure out a way to optimize my champion points for my Tank in regards to mitigation. If you know me then you know I know a lot and love my mitigation, but I have never really figured out how to best set up my CP. So to this end I created a calculator for myself, its a bit limited, frankly if I had the time I would want to make a program that figured it out for me. Regardless, I made a small calculator that will take some but not all variables into account to see what works best.

There are a few things that I have set as criteria for now:

7 Gold Heavy Armor pieces
A Gold Shield
No Reinforced or other armor increasing bonuses
The heavy armor passive Resolve
The CP Passive Bulwark
Major Ward and Resolve

One goal of mine is to make my mitigation for Physical and Spell damage be as equal as possible, for that end I have made it so I have to put as many points into Hard as I do Elemental Defender, as well I want my mitigation for DoT's to be the same for Direct Damage, so those go together as well. If you think this is a bad idea, then please let me know, I might be thinking of it in the wrong way. All in all I want to maximize it all to have my mitigation be as high as I can get it. So here is the link to said calculator(hope it works):

https://jscalc.io/calc/jJoR8DDjLV4bzuzj

I need help to see what numbers will have the best combo. So far I have managed to get around 60.8% Mitigation in both categories using 37p in Hardy and Elemental Defender, 61p in Thick Skin and Ironclad, 9 in Spell Shield and 55 in Armor Focus. This btw is with 260 CP which we will have next update. If anyone can beat that with my calculator or have suggestion for changes for it or my way of thinking around the problem do let me know, I have intent to update and upgrade it as I go, but this was all I managed to work up today.´

PS. the calculator can't limit you to 260 Cp but it does keep track of total CP used, just keep it in mind and use that to keep yourself within the actual limit of the game.

EDIT: NEWEST VERSION https://jscalc.io/calc/3OJGVPl8vmhIsek3

paulsimonps · July 2018

@Checkmath @Taylor_MB @Tasear @Waffennacht @Liofa @Woeler @Minno @Reorx_Holybeard @starkerealm

Hey people tagged, you guys are all people who I highly value the opinions and feedback from. Would greatly appreciate some feedback on my little project. Know not all of y'all are tanks but game knowledge is often not exclusive to ones role.

Gonna work on not making the calc so limited in options next I am off but I hope it can at least spark some ideas for now.

Liofa · July 2018

I tried but got the same results. Whatever I did, I couldnt bring both of mitigations above 60.8%. Any change I did after that point either made one gain/one lose or both lose. I reached those numbers with 20/21% of Ironclad btw.

For the topic of direct vs. dot, I always aim for high direct mitigation. When you think about it, most dangerous hits a tank takes are direct while dangerous DoTs can be purged like triplets in hof and zmaja dot. Obviously there are more but these are the ones I could remember while writing ^^

paulsimonps · July 2018

Liofa wrote: »

I tried but got the same results. Whatever I did, I couldnt bring both of mitigations above 60.8%. Any change I did after that point either made one gain/one lose or both lose. I reached those numbers with 20/21% of Ironclad btw.

For the topic of direct vs. dot, I always aim for high direct mitigation. When you think about it, most dangerous hits a tank takes are direct while dangerous DoTs can be purged like triplets in hof and zmaja dot. Obviously there are more but these are the ones I could remember while writing ^^

@Liofa

Tank you, I will separate them all next time I got time to edit it, both Ironclad/Thick Skin and Hardy/Elemental. Gonna make the outputs be 4 categories of Physical Direct, Physical DoT, Spell Direct and Spell DoT. See what can be come up with with that.

Liofa · July 2018

paulsimonps wrote: »

Tank you, I will separate them all next time I got time to edit it, both Ironclad/Thick Skin and Hardy/Elemental. Gonna make the outputs be 4 categories of Physical Direct, Physical DoT, Spell Direct and Spell DoT. See what can be come up with with that.

Yeah that sounds so much better ^^ This is again an amazing tool, thanks for the effort!

Checkmath · July 2018

Hey mate
didnt test your calculations that much, but it sounds cool. for some ingame tipps and getting the best out of your cps:
as Liofa already said, i wouldnt spend much into dot-damage-reduction, since normally big direct hits are dangerous for tanks.
my second tipp is, that the damage sources are very specific to the trials you do. i know, this sounds stupid, but in end content tanks reallocate the elemental defender and hardy cps before a specific trial or even boss fights. most bosses only use either physical or magical attacks, so cps in elemental defender are wasted when you stand in front of a boss with only physical damage (like the warrior in Hel Ra).

Btw i get higher mitigation values with 32 in hardy/ele def. , 66 in thick skin/ironclad plus 9 in spellshield and 55 in armor focus (resulting in 60.903 physical and 60.899 spell mitigation)
also 27 in hardy/ele def. and 72 in ironclad/thick scin plus 8 in spellshield and 54 in armor focus results in slihtly more after your calculator (60.932 physical and 60.877 spell mitigation).

Minno · July 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

Hey mate
didnt test your calculations that much, but it sounds cool. for some ingame tipps and getting the best out of your cps:
as Liofa already said, i wouldnt spend much into dot-damage-reduction, since normally big direct hits are dangerous for tanks.
my second tipp is, that the damage sources are very specific to the trials you do. i know, this sounds stupid, but in end content tanks reallocate the elemental defender and hardy cps before a specific trial or even boss fights. most bosses only use either physical or magical attacks, so cps in elemental defender are wasted when you stand in front of a boss with only physical damage (like the warrior in Hel Ra).

Btw i get higher mitigation values with 32 in hardy/ele def. , 66 in thick skin/ironclad plus 9 in spellshield and 55 in armor focus (resulting in 60.903 physical and 60.899 spell mitigation)
also 27 in hardy/ele def. and 72 in ironclad/thick scin plus 8 in spellshield and 54 in armor focus results in slihtly more after your calculator (60.932 physical and 60.877 spell mitigation).

I'll have to dig at this at lunch.

I'm mostly PvP oriented, but I do know off hand that running pirate Skeleton equates to about 2975 resists on the 1pc which is about 30-40 CP in armor resist.

Swapping from armor focus to things like quick recovery, if using a set with resist stats is a nice way to kinda fudge your CP allocation. (Especially if you use a set like ironblood with 3x swift and expedition sources to counter the self buffed snare.)

If you can get nice uptime on major/minor protection, then you might be able to let off the gas on ironclad in favor of things like quick recovery or bastion (if you have a nice shield or have a hot on you from yourself it your healer).

Minno · July 2018

Piggyback to my comment:
- next patch Templars will be getting additional resists while standing in their rune on top of getting their major resist buffs. I'm going to venture a guess for stationary phases, you'll want to be a Templar over DK in this scenario mostly because your resist value might be decent enough to concentrate your set selection to compensate for things that are weak for Templar tanks (no group buffs, terrible block passives, no sustain, etc).

I'd imagine your editor would need to account for that change, especially if you'll have a near easier uptime on minor protection/vitality/mending on restoring rune (something DKs are kinda missing out on, save for 12% healing received).

Here what I got for 60% on both(242):
- DK
- 10% Hardy/ele
- 20% ironclad/thick
- 42 armor
- 2 spell
- 18 points left over (around 3-5% quick recovery off hand memory)

Woeler · July 2018

Are you explicitly looking to equalize all the damage factors? An interesting case, but I do believe that investing more in direct damage reduction is more beneficial overall as direct damage tends to be more dangerous than DOTs.

As for the calculator, I seemed to be getting the same result you mentioned. Nifty tool.

Sparr0w · July 2018

Separate Iron & Thick

Tick box for Major/Minor ward/resolve.

Much better to focus direct damage than DoT damage. Hardy/Ele change depending on trial.

Checkmath · July 2018

oh just found one for 60.9% on both:
32 hardy/ele def.
72 ironclad/thick s.
5 spell shield
47 armor focus

60.960% in physical mitigation
60.979% in spell mitigation

Minno · July 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

oh just found one for 60.9% on both:
32 hardy/ele def.
72 ironclad/thick s.
5 spell shield
47 armor focus

60.960% in physical mitigation
60.979% in spell mitigation

Mines better

paulsimonps · July 2018

Updated version of the calculator:

https://jscalc.io/calc/qSJx5QKKZdfUaEXY

I separated the Champion trees so that you have to put points into them separately. As well, I took Major Ward and Resolve off from the base resistance and made it optional while also adding an option for the minor buffs.

@Woeler

yea, I did try to make all damage mitigation equalize across all forms of damage, the idea being to never have to change my CP regardless of the situation, in theory this would apply to swapping between Trial and PvE vs PvP. Obviously for each specific situation its not the best possible set up. Like @Checkmath said, a lot of end game players swap their CP to reflect the fight. I am far too lazy for that stuff and I like not losing a bunch of gold all the time.

But yea, more direct damage than damage over time is probably the best idea for my thinking as well. Something I am thinking about though is the occurrence of non-blockable direct damage effects, as well as blockable damage over time effects.

In short we all think along the lines of direct damage being blockable, but with some AoEs that is not the case, they are still considered direct damage as long as its not a persistent effect but cause of its application type it cannot be blocked. As well channeled abilities are damage over time but can be blocked(as far as I know all Player Channels can be block at least, might be missing some though). My question is how would one best prepair for and calculate around that for maximum overall mitigation for all types of damage.

One way, which is probably the more tedious way, but simple in theory, is to extend the calculator to account for all types of damage application and mitigation. Then spending a lot of time twisting those sliders to get the highest you can over all the categories, putting more emphasis one those that are more common or dangerous. But there might be a better way, if one can think of it. I have tried to do a calculator like that in the past but didn't really do a good job at it, this time my thinking is shifted and it might be worth a shot....

Anyway, for those that have read and have interest in this, more feedback would be welcomed. If I can I want this to be able to be applicable to more than just tanking in PvE, PvP and non tank as well.

PS: Want to reiterate the fact that while I know its better to change CP for the fight, the idea is to not have too. Be the best you can without constant change.

paulsimonps · July 2018

Btw, I am very glad for the feedback so far and love the help, all comments so far have been great. I love this sort of theorycrafting.

Minno · July 2018

paulsimonps wrote: »

Updated version of the calculator:

https://jscalc.io/calc/qSJx5QKKZdfUaEXY

I separated the Champion trees so that you have to put points into them separately. As well, I took Major Ward and Resolve off from the base resistance and made it optional while also adding an option for the minor buffs.

@Woeler

yea, I did try to make all damage mitigation equalize across all forms of damage, the idea being to never have to change my CP regardless of the situation, in theory this would apply to swapping between Trial and PvE vs PvP. Obviously for each specific situation its not the best possible set up. Like @Checkmath said, a lot of end game players swap their CP to reflect the fight. I am far too lazy for that stuff and I like not losing a bunch of gold all the time.

But yea, more direct damage than damage over time is probably the best idea for my thinking as well. Something I am thinking about though is the occurrence of non-blockable direct damage effects, as well as blockable damage over time effects.

In short we all think along the lines of direct damage being blockable, but with some AoEs that is not the case, they are still considered direct damage as long as its not a persistent effect but cause of its application type it cannot be blocked. As well channeled abilities are damage over time but can be blocked(as far as I know all Player Channels can be block at least, might be missing some though). My question is how would one best prepair for and calculate around that for maximum overall mitigation for all types of damage.

One way, which is probably the more tedious way, but simple in theory, is to extend the calculator to account for all types of damage application and mitigation. Then spending a lot of time twisting those sliders to get the highest you can over all the categories, putting more emphasis one those that are more common or dangerous. But there might be a better way, if one can think of it. I have tried to do a calculator like that in the past but didn't really do a good job at it, this time my thinking is shifted and it might be worth a shot....

Anyway, for those that have read and have interest in this, more feedback would be welcomed. If I can I want this to be able to be applicable to more than just tanking in PvE, PvP and non tank as well.

PS: Want to reiterate the fact that while I know its better to change CP for the fight, the idea is to not have too. Be the best you can without constant change.

CP changing should be build playstyle dependant not per fight. It's a game, not filling out your tax return to maximize your deductions lol.

To account for the broad spectrum of attacks I think we need a rundown of what the attack is and the current counters. For example, dot DMG can be reduced via armor/CP but directly countered by HOTs.

Or another way is to categorize each DMG mitigation as it exists on the DMG mitigation calculation. Then figure out what's the point in which you'll run into heavy diminishing returns with the available sources of each. It's general consensus that most CP trails off after 30-40 points so it's better for balanced builds to stack elsewhere.

Just some ideas based on what you wrote. Might not be an exact answer to anything mentioned. Good thread!

Yakidafi · July 2018

@paulsimonps hi, thanks for all the data you put out to us.

I have some feedback on this one.

if you could put in your own phys/spell res. Because now I would have to double check to see if it actually gave me this mitigation.

If you have 60.9% you will only get 60% mitigation in my understanding and that might be what I have ingame but on here I might have 61%.

On the 2nd edition of the tool I got:
Sorc/nb: 59.4% across the board with 9,9,22,22,27,27 major ward/resolve.

Warden: 60.5% across the board same as above but with 2 winter skills.

Dk: phys 61.07% spell 61.08% with 9,7,23,23,10,42 major ward/resolve.

Templar: phys 61.008% spell 60.378% with 9,8, 23,23,6,41 major ward/resolve.

I like to keep dots high aswell as direct. I don't do trials much but the ones I did on vet it felt that the one shot mechanics were the threat before you get used to it, in 4man and solo that I know more, dots are the higher threat to me. Because direct is blocked or dodged.

Sparr0w · July 2018

Spell Resistance:
28,893
Physical Resistance:
28,254
Physical Mitigation (Direct Damage):
60.778
Pysical Mitigation (Damage over Time):
58.713
Spell Mitigation (Direct Damage):
61.440
Spell Mitigation (Damage over Time):
59.411
Total Champion Points:
250

That's what mine sits at. I run 1pc Lord Warden for extra resistances tho so would be higher, as well as a dirty 15% dodge chance

Woeler · July 2018

Don’t worry, I don’t change my cp either

Checkmath · July 2018

since ele def. and hardy are separated, you can better put points in it

paulsimonps · July 2018

Yakidafi wrote: »

@paulsimonps hi, thanks for all the data you put out to us.

I have some feedback on this one.

if you could put in your own phys/spell res. Because now I would have to double check to see if it actually gave me this mitigation.

If you have 60.9% you will only get 60% mitigation in my understanding and that might be what I have ingame but on here I might have 61%.

On the 2nd edition of the tool I got:
Sorc/nb: 59.4% across the board with 9,9,22,22,27,27 major ward/resolve.

Warden: 60.5% across the board same as above but with 2 winter skills.

Dk: phys 61.07% spell 61.08% with 9,7,23,23,10,42 major ward/resolve.

Templar: phys 61.008% spell 60.378% with 9,8, 23,23,6,41 major ward/resolve.

I like to keep dots high aswell as direct. I don't do trials much but the ones I did on vet it felt that the one shot mechanics were the threat before you get used to it, in 4man and solo that I know more, dots are the higher threat to me. Because direct is blocked or dodged.

@Yakidafi
Hmmm now you make me curious, does actual mitigation round out.... As far as I know it does not, and you can get a decimal in your actual mitigation in game, but I never like saying things like that without testing. Will try and test it later when I can.

Minno wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Updated version of the calculator:

https://jscalc.io/calc/qSJx5QKKZdfUaEXY

I separated the Champion trees so that you have to put points into them separately. As well, I took Major Ward and Resolve off from the base resistance and made it optional while also adding an option for the minor buffs.

@Woeler

yea, I did try to make all damage mitigation equalize across all forms of damage, the idea being to never have to change my CP regardless of the situation, in theory this would apply to swapping between Trial and PvE vs PvP. Obviously for each specific situation its not the best possible set up. Like @Checkmath said, a lot of end game players swap their CP to reflect the fight. I am far too lazy for that stuff and I like not losing a bunch of gold all the time.

But yea, more direct damage than damage over time is probably the best idea for my thinking as well. Something I am thinking about though is the occurrence of non-blockable direct damage effects, as well as blockable damage over time effects.

In short we all think along the lines of direct damage being blockable, but with some AoEs that is not the case, they are still considered direct damage as long as its not a persistent effect but cause of its application type it cannot be blocked. As well channeled abilities are damage over time but can be blocked(as far as I know all Player Channels can be block at least, might be missing some though). My question is how would one best prepair for and calculate around that for maximum overall mitigation for all types of damage.

One way, which is probably the more tedious way, but simple in theory, is to extend the calculator to account for all types of damage application and mitigation. Then spending a lot of time twisting those sliders to get the highest you can over all the categories, putting more emphasis one those that are more common or dangerous. But there might be a better way, if one can think of it. I have tried to do a calculator like that in the past but didn't really do a good job at it, this time my thinking is shifted and it might be worth a shot....

Anyway, for those that have read and have interest in this, more feedback would be welcomed. If I can I want this to be able to be applicable to more than just tanking in PvE, PvP and non tank as well.

PS: Want to reiterate the fact that while I know its better to change CP for the fight, the idea is to not have too. Be the best you can without constant change.

CP changing should be build playstyle dependant not per fight. It's a game, not filling out your tax return to maximize your deductions lol.

To account for the broad spectrum of attacks I think we need a rundown of what the attack is and the current counters. For example, dot DMG can be reduced via armor/CP but directly countered by HOTs.

Or another way is to categorize each DMG mitigation as it exists on the DMG mitigation calculation. Then figure out what's the point in which you'll run into heavy diminishing returns with the available sources of each. It's general consensus that most CP trails off after 30-40 points so it's better for balanced builds to stack elsewhere.

Just some ideas based on what you wrote. Might not be an exact answer to anything mentioned. Good thread!

@Minno

Except in your example if the DoT is a Bleed then the resistance is useless

but yea, need to add more outputs as well as add more of the mitigation sources, basically turning this into a v2.0 of my old calc... but more ideas like this is making it easier to figure out how to do this. And indeed I hate having to change my CP all the time, one playstyle is enough to do what need to be done.

Woeler wrote: »

Don’t worry, I don’t change my cp either

@Woeler

kaithuzar · July 2018

what if you had different presets that you selected based on whatever that damage type for the current meta is?

For example I put champion points into reduce damage from light and heavy attacks not only because of overloading sorcs but I remember a few people back in the day that were heading for 15k with bow heavy attacks.

right now I back bar in wizards riposte & Run 5 impreg on my melee magblade but it definitely doesn’t feel as tanky as swapping the impreg out for seducer & using 1 pirate w/ 1 chudan
( since I’m using impreg I swapped to infused traits for tri-stat glyphs)
I know it’s a giant loss of 6k+ Resist but does anyone know the ratio of how much impenetrable I would need to balance that out?

I know they’re changing sloads but does the dot cp tree lessen that? Are there other ways of lessening that in bg’s where cp isn’t counted?
Bleeds?

If bleeds & sloads are reduced by that cp tree then for this meta I wonder if it’s worth it to add more?

What about bastion? I think a decent amount of magdk also use harness magic

kaithuzar · July 2018

I guess I feel like impreg doesn’t seem worth it because the cp system scales worse at higher levels. So you get more out of using the impen tree than not using it; correct?
But this also depends on how well impen scales compared to other types of dmg mitigation after 3.3k impen

Maybe I would be better off just using impen trait & going to fortified brass/armor master/pariah?

It’s great to want to min/max cp, but I think in the situation I’m bringing up, you really have to look at the entire build to see what’s the best place to get X

paulsimonps · July 2018

@kaithuzar

You are bringing up a lot of things I am not wanting to address yet. This was made for me to test champion point set ups for PvE Tanking. While I want it to be able to do more later you are putting way to high of a bar for it at the moment. There are A LOT of variables to take into account when calculating mitigation. You build for PvP a lot more differently than you build for PvE, and damage are built differently than tanking.

Minno · July 2018

kaithuzar wrote: »

I guess I feel like impreg doesn’t seem worth it because the cp system scales worse at higher levels. So you get more out of using the impen tree than not using it; correct?
But this also depends on how well impen scales compared to other types of dmg mitigation after 3.3k impen

Maybe I would be better off just using impen trait & going to fortified brass/armor master/pariah?

It’s great to want to min/max cp, but I think in the situation I’m bringing up, you really have to look at the entire build to see what’s the best place to get X

Like OP said it's for pve tanking.

Though crit resists are important for 2 reasons:
- it reduces your enemy crit before your other forms of mitigation are taken into effect
- impen is only as useful if you can reduce their crit DMG modifier (66 crit resist = 1% crit DMG reduction).

Therefore there are moments you'll still get hit by a heavy crit and moments where your crit resists are higher than the targets crit DMG resulting in wasted stats (similar like when you over penetrate in pve).

Either way it all comes down to how efficient you can get your defense without ruining your DMG/sustain and everything is subject to some form of diminishing return.

Yakidafi · July 2018

paulsimonps wrote: »

Yakidafi wrote: »

@paulsimonps hi, thanks for all the data you put out to us.

I have some feedback on this one.

if you could put in your own phys/spell res. Because now I would have to double check to see if it actually gave me this mitigation.

If you have 60.9% you will only get 60% mitigation in my understanding and that might be what I have ingame but on here I might have 61%.

On the 2nd edition of the tool I got:
Sorc/nb: 59.4% across the board with 9,9,22,22,27,27 major ward/resolve.

Warden: 60.5% across the board same as above but with 2 winter skills.

Dk: phys 61.07% spell 61.08% with 9,7,23,23,10,42 major ward/resolve.

Templar: phys 61.008% spell 60.378% with 9,8, 23,23,6,41 major ward/resolve.

I like to keep dots high aswell as direct. I don't do trials much but the ones I did on vet it felt that the one shot mechanics were the threat before you get used to it, in 4man and solo that I know more, dots are the higher threat to me. Because direct is blocked or dodged.

@Yakidafi
Hmmm now you make me curious, does actual mitigation round out.... As far as I know it does not, and you can get a decimal in your actual mitigation in game, but I never like saying things like that without testing. Will try and test it later when I can.

I have not done testing myself on that myself , I merely figured that whole % numbers is the zos way since cp work like that. But that was added later in the game though.

If it is so, on you first calc (there are different versions on your first and 2nd post

) I got as a dk phys 60.941%, spell 61.079% with 37hardy/ele,72 iron/thick, 2spell and 40 armor.

Taylor_MB · July 2018

Well done Luna, another awesome calculator

!

I defer to others judgement on PvE, but if a PvP'er happens to stumble into this thread....

If you play a tanky PvP build that doesn't rely on a group/healer to be effective and unable to run a cleanse/purge, then you definitely want to put significant points into DoT damage reduction. You can block direct damage, but DoT's from multiple opponents will east you up.

Yakidafi · July 2018

Tested now and ye I did not need to reach a whole number to get more mitigation, so decimal numbers give more mitigation too.

paulsimonps · July 2018

Yakidafi wrote: »

Tested now and ye I did not need to reach a whole number to get more mitigation, so decimal numbers give more mitigation too.

That's what I thought, thanks for testing though, greatly appreciated.

Also will be working on this all of tomorrow since I'm off work. If you want something added let me know and I will try to incorporate it.

paulsimonps · August 2018

So I am trying to figure out all the different application of damage that we have, I know most of them but if anyone can spot one that might be missing or wrong I would love to know. As far as I know this is what we got:

Damage types:

Poison
Disease
Physical
Flame
Frost
Shock
Magick
Oblivion

Application type:

Direct Melee
Direct Projectile
Direct Area of Effect
Damage over Time Melee
Damage over Time Projectile
Damage over Time Area of Effect
Damage over Time Ranged

So if anyone can tell me if they can think of a reason for some of these being untrue or if I missed one I would love to know. I intend to incorporate this into the calculator late if no one can find a fault in it.

Liofa · August 2018

Bleed. It ignores resistances but still can be reduced with Thick Skinned. So that should be calculated differently right?

paulsimonps · August 2018

Liofa wrote: »

Bleed. It ignores resistances but still can be reduced with Thick Skinned. So that should be calculated differently right?

That is true. Good point, got to love exceptions.