RedVyperOfDorne wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Kayotic wrote: »

Ya are we not gonna address that magicka sorcs are being excluded from end game content,?

Yeah. Most progression guilds demand absurd DPS parses nowadays (minimum 40-45k), which can be achieved by magblades and... that's it. Yes, there's the odd youtuber using 3M dummy, Lover stone, Zaan (!!!) and other cheese tricks that can achieve that damage, but that's an exercise of futility, no real guild lets you use cheese tricks in real content.

Stamina DPS? No, because in trials they are gimped.
Magicka? Only NBs because they set the standard.

Magsorcs? Used 1 out of 8 DPS for progression content. YAY!

Well, looking at the half full glass, in progression trials:

- 7 NBs
- 1 Magsorc
- 0 (DPS) Templar
- 0 (DPS) DK

So we should be "happier" than the last two...

There's only a few small tweaks that put magsorc, magden and magplar behind mageblade from ranged. Unfortunately its the other kit that mageblade bring. All of those toons can pull easily 45k on a 6m with no cheese, just takes practice. Unfortunately you can pick up a blade and hit that damage without much practice.

Solo magsorc 45k on 6M with no cheese? Please show me a video of that.

"Can pull easily?" NO WAY. Yesterday I've practiced 2 hours and even an heavy attack build (low DPS, high sustain build) spamming pots has a very hard time finishing a 6M dummy without double heavy attacks ( = big DPS drop) towards the end.

How do you justify the snare removal tho? Streak already pretty good escape and shields pretty good defence. With snare removal how do you catch sorc and kill?

King_Thelon wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

How do you justify the snare removal tho? Streak already pretty good escape and shields pretty good defence. With snare removal how do you catch sorc and kill?

@hakan

Prepare for itemized responses:

1 - snare removal is justified because this whole game feels like you're a 350 pound neckbeard trying to run after the hamburgler in *** tar molasses. Unless you run in a blob all day, you'd know this very well.

2 - streak is a terrible escape. It is the only skill in the game that punishes its user with stacked costs, while gap closers can be spammed endlessly, with no stacked cost, ignore the Z axis and cannot miss / be dodged

3 - shields are a "pretty good defense" until you're outnumbered by even just 1 extra person, where they become literally the worst-scaling defense in the game

4 - to catch a Sorc, you use a gap closer. To kill a Sorc, you pressure their stam bar and apply burst when shields expire. I know it's hard for new players, but they should nonetheless resist the temptation to respawn on the forums.

But streak instant gap-opener(? Lol the word) which also stuns and has a little damage? Cloak or major expedition skills dont do that. They will be still around. They wont instantly get away.

Outnumbered you say, what do you expect? Tons of damage and also ability to deal with lots of enemies with ease. You think it will be fair when you can defends against 10 men?

And wow chill mr i know everything guy. When did i say im new?

RedVyperOfDorne wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

RedVyperOfDorne wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Kayotic wrote: »

Ya are we not gonna address that magicka sorcs are being excluded from end game content,?

Yeah. Most progression guilds demand absurd DPS parses nowadays (minimum 40-45k), which can be achieved by magblades and... that's it. Yes, there's the odd youtuber using 3M dummy, Lover stone, Zaan (!!!) and other cheese tricks that can achieve that damage, but that's an exercise of futility, no real guild lets you use cheese tricks in real content.

Stamina DPS? No, because in trials they are gimped.
Magicka? Only NBs because they set the standard.

Magsorcs? Used 1 out of 8 DPS for progression content. YAY!

Well, looking at the half full glass, in progression trials:

- 7 NBs
- 1 Magsorc
- 0 (DPS) Templar
- 0 (DPS) DK

So we should be "happier" than the last two...

There's only a few small tweaks that put magsorc, magden and magplar behind mageblade from ranged. Unfortunately its the other kit that mageblade bring. All of those toons can pull easily 45k on a 6m with no cheese, just takes practice. Unfortunately you can pick up a blade and hit that damage without much practice.

Can you give me a link of a video with a Msorc pulling alone 45k with no buffs and no cheese-ing ?
What practice? Msorc is by far the easiest PVE mag spec in game lol

Can't you look yourself or jump in a discord with some end game players to see that msorcs are pulling 45-48k 6m solo, depending on crits, frag procs and vuln uptime.

ANY class is as easy as you want to make it. Every class will perform better in both DPS and sustain if you use a dynamic rotation, which closes the gap on class difficulty. Saying classes are easy is just because you play a static, dot overcast rotation.

I jumped on Discord in a progression guild and in a "slightly-less-than-progression" guild and nobody of them could produce 48k solo on 6M dummy. Magblades could. I know, ZOS made magblades as better sorcs than sorcs, minus the downsides of having to use pets, but let's not confuse them!

I also looked at a number of Summerset mag sorc builds Youtube videos. Alcast comes close to 45k, with a dynamic rotation, however he openly admits he cheesed it. Plus it's on 3M dummy (= 2k inflated DPS).
Same for ApochryphaESO, used ZAAN (2 builds) and 3M dummy (= 2k inflated DPS).
T3hasiangod => below 40k DPS, he's one of the few using 6M dummy. Unsurprisingly, damage is low. Because sorcs regen is so utterly terrible that switching to 3M to 6M kills performance more than any other class.
Xynode => 38k DPS (no pet) and 3M dummy (= 2k inflated DPS).
I've found a cheesed 47k (not "easy 48k") guy using PTS perfected everything, that is something close to nobody has in the normal game. And 3M dummy (= 2k inflated DPS).
I've also found a cheesed 48k parse using perfected Syroria + perfected vAS staff. And 3M dummy (= 2k inflated DPS).
The only guys coming even vaguely close to that, parsed on 3M dummy and use sets up that 1 in a million have (in fact they ALL do it on the PTS server).

I am fairly sure you can show me these 45-48k easy mag sorc parses done on 6M instead. I have looked several pages worth of videos but did not find them, I lack your pro research skills at finding the one guy in the world who can pull that. Compare to any magblade runt doing that and even I can find their videos.

Compare that to STATIC rotation magblade build, who can pull 43k on 6M dummy (see Gilliamtherogue doing it in his "TESO: Magicka Nightblade Beginner's Brief and Basic" video). With dynamic rotation, 49k. No perfected anything needed.
Novaris Magblade build: 50.6k DPS with actual, ingame, PURPLE gear (not perfected, of course).


I still recall WoW times, when we had endless flaming threads because one class dealt 5% more DPS than another. In ESO? 15-20% DPS differences are not an issue for ZOS, who believes trial leaders indifferently invite a magblade or a mag warden as DPS.

Ankael07 wrote: »

So its been 10 pages of feedback and what did we get in 4.1 patch ? Mage's Fury fixed to be dodgeable, Rune Cage damage reverted (which wasnt even the main issue with this skill) oh and Overload heavy attacks proc enchantments now (who even uses this outside of roleplaying as Sidius?)

Is it really necessary to have a Sorcerer representative to fix 2 bugs and revert 1 change every 4 months?

Class representatives are completely useless.

We have *1* solid and unbreachable pillar dictating game balance:

Nightblades SHALL rule undisputed in PvE and SHALL rule undisputed in PvP.

Whatever other class, whatever spec, whatever gear, are not allowed to even come close, else the NERF is fast, swift, relentless.
Why should anyone even bother playing a completely, openly, heavily, utterly biased game like this any more?

Vahrokh wrote: »

RedVyperOfDorne wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

RedVyperOfDorne wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Kayotic wrote: »

Ya are we not gonna address that magicka sorcs are being excluded from end game content,?

Yeah. Most progression guilds demand absurd DPS parses nowadays (minimum 40-45k), which can be achieved by magblades and... that's it. Yes, there's the odd youtuber using 3M dummy, Lover stone, Zaan (!!!) and other cheese tricks that can achieve that damage, but that's an exercise of futility, no real guild lets you use cheese tricks in real content.

Stamina DPS? No, because in trials they are gimped.
Magicka? Only NBs because they set the standard.

Magsorcs? Used 1 out of 8 DPS for progression content. YAY!

Well, looking at the half full glass, in progression trials:

- 7 NBs
- 1 Magsorc
- 0 (DPS) Templar
- 0 (DPS) DK

So we should be "happier" than the last two...

There's only a few small tweaks that put magsorc, magden and magplar behind mageblade from ranged. Unfortunately its the other kit that mageblade bring. All of those toons can pull easily 45k on a 6m with no cheese, just takes practice. Unfortunately you can pick up a blade and hit that damage without much practice.

Can you give me a link of a video with a Msorc pulling alone 45k with no buffs and no cheese-ing ?
What practice? Msorc is by far the easiest PVE mag spec in game lol

Can't you look yourself or jump in a discord with some end game players to see that msorcs are pulling 45-48k 6m solo, depending on crits, frag procs and vuln uptime.

ANY class is as easy as you want to make it. Every class will perform better in both DPS and sustain if you use a dynamic rotation, which closes the gap on class difficulty. Saying classes are easy is just because you play a static, dot overcast rotation.

I jumped on Discord in a progression guild and in a "slightly-less-than-progression" guild and nobody of them could produce 48k solo on 6M dummy. Magblades could. I know, ZOS made magblades as better sorcs than sorcs, minus the downsides of having to use pets, but let's not confuse them!

I also looked at a number of Summerset mag sorc builds Youtube videos. Alcast comes close to 45k, with a dynamic rotation, however he openly admits he cheesed it. Plus it's on 3M dummy (= 2k inflated DPS).
Same for ApochryphaESO, used ZAAN (2 builds) and 3M dummy (= 2k inflated DPS).
T3hasiangod => below 40k DPS, he's one of the few using 6M dummy. Unsurprisingly, damage is low. Because sorcs regen is so utterly terrible that switching to 3M to 6M kills performance more than any other class.
Xynode => 38k DPS (no pet) and 3M dummy (= 2k inflated DPS).
I've found a cheesed 47k (not "easy 48k") guy using PTS perfected everything, that is something close to nobody has in the normal game. And 3M dummy (= 2k inflated DPS).
I've also found a cheesed 48k parse using perfected Syroria + perfected vAS staff. And 3M dummy (= 2k inflated DPS).
The only guys coming even vaguely close to that, parsed on 3M dummy and use sets up that 1 in a million have (in fact they ALL do it on the PTS server).

I am fairly sure you can show me these 45-48k easy mag sorc parses done on 6M instead. I have looked several pages worth of videos but did not find them, I lack your pro research skills at finding the one guy in the world who can pull that. Compare to any magblade runt doing that and even I can find their videos.

Compare that to STATIC rotation magblade build, who can pull 43k on 6M dummy (see Gilliamtherogue doing it in his "TESO: Magicka Nightblade Beginner's Brief and Basic" video). With dynamic rotation, 49k. No perfected anything needed.
Novaris Magblade build: 50.6k DPS with actual, ingame, PURPLE gear (not perfected, of course).


I still recall WoW times, when we had endless flaming threads because one class dealt 5% more DPS than another. In ESO? 15-20% DPS differences are not an issue for ZOS, who believes trial leaders indifferently invite a magblade or a mag warden as DPS.

Hard part about dummy humping, is anyone can decide their own rules on what a 'cheese' is, when in reality the purpose is to test different setups with some sort of consistency.

If I'm testing max DPS solo on a mag sorc, I'm doing all perfect gear on the PTS, with trap beast and zaan, raid CP and thief.

Then to compare DPS I would manipulate CP's, enchants (excluding vuln) and dot prioritization in a dynamic parse (e.g prioritizing frag over curse or wall over liquid.)

I'm also using spell sym as a pseudo bubble to sustain (again, testing for a raid environment where bubbles would usually be offered).

Is this a cheese for some? Maybe? Is this a cheese for others? No way because it's testing single target damage capacity consistently. I parse anywhere from 45-47 solo on a 6m and I'm not as good as others who play this game.

Vahrokh wrote: »

Cheese is actually quite standard.

Cheese, for a mag sorc, is one or more of the following:

- Using Lover Mundus Stone
- Using Zaan
- Using another player to provide "globes" or penetration or any kind of sustain buff / dummy debuff.
- Using ultimate glitches (like Alcast did with atronach in one of his last parses)

Not strictly considered cheese, but still a known way to "pump up" DPS:

- using a 3M dummy
- using PTS to access gear nobody will have anytime soon, except maybe Hodor and little else.

Yeah I mean if you’re not using zaan on a mag sorc when you can, you’re doing it wrong lol. Which is more often than you think.

I haven't read anything in this thread at all but I just wanted to say I hope nobody is suggesting changing Overload ultimate to something else because that would ruin the Sorcerer for me. I only want it inspected and any problems rectified.

Thanks

hakan wrote: »

King_Thelon wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

How do you justify the snare removal tho? Streak already pretty good escape and shields pretty good defence. With snare removal how do you catch sorc and kill?

@hakan

Prepare for itemized responses:

1 - snare removal is justified because this whole game feels like you're a 350 pound neckbeard trying to run after the hamburgler in *** tar molasses. Unless you run in a blob all day, you'd know this very well.

2 - streak is a terrible escape. It is the only skill in the game that punishes its user with stacked costs, while gap closers can be spammed endlessly, with no stacked cost, ignore the Z axis and cannot miss / be dodged

3 - shields are a "pretty good defense" until you're outnumbered by even just 1 extra person, where they become literally the worst-scaling defense in the game

4 - to catch a Sorc, you use a gap closer. To kill a Sorc, you pressure their stam bar and apply burst when shields expire. I know it's hard for new players, but they should nonetheless resist the temptation to respawn on the forums.

But streak instant gap-opener(? Lol the word) which also stuns and has a little damage? Cloak or major expedition skills dont do that. They will be still around. They wont instantly get away.

Outnumbered you say, what do you expect? Tons of damage and also ability to deal with lots of enemies with ease. You think it will be fair when you can defends against 10 men?

And wow chill mr i know everything guy. When did i say im new?

Sorry, but if you can't catch a sorc that was in your melee range via gap closers or simply sprinting + maj expedition, the issue is on you.

This shows a rather big issue with the community on how they depict a sorc should be. They should not be able to run away (therefor your no to snare removal), they should not be able to tank outside of 1v1 and they should obviously not have lined up burst. Taken into consideration that they already have neither a good class heal nor harmonize in any way with heavy armor - what should sorcs be allowed to do? What should be it's way to defend or deal damage?

Take away the shield and they need mobility even more. But you won't give them that.
Take away the mobility and they need shields even more. But people already complain about that.
Take away the delayed burst and you have a weaker NB.

What shall it be?

hakan wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

King_Thelon wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

How do you justify the snare removal tho? Streak already pretty good escape and shields pretty good defence. With snare removal how do you catch sorc and kill?

@hakan

Prepare for itemized responses:

1 - snare removal is justified because this whole game feels like you're a 350 pound neckbeard trying to run after the hamburgler in *** tar molasses. Unless you run in a blob all day, you'd know this very well.

2 - streak is a terrible escape. It is the only skill in the game that punishes its user with stacked costs, while gap closers can be spammed endlessly, with no stacked cost, ignore the Z axis and cannot miss / be dodged

3 - shields are a "pretty good defense" until you're outnumbered by even just 1 extra person, where they become literally the worst-scaling defense in the game

4 - to catch a Sorc, you use a gap closer. To kill a Sorc, you pressure their stam bar and apply burst when shields expire. I know it's hard for new players, but they should nonetheless resist the temptation to respawn on the forums.

But streak instant gap-opener(? Lol the word) which also stuns and has a little damage? Cloak or major expedition skills dont do that. They will be still around. They wont instantly get away.

Outnumbered you say, what do you expect? Tons of damage and also ability to deal with lots of enemies with ease. You think it will be fair when you can defends against 10 men?

And wow chill mr i know everything guy. When did i say im new?

Sorry, but if you can't catch a sorc that was in your melee range via gap closers or simply sprinting + maj expedition, the issue is on you.

This shows a rather big issue with the community on how they depict a sorc should be. They should not be able to run away (therefor your no to snare removal), they should not be able to tank outside of 1v1 and they should obviously not have lined up burst. Taken into consideration that they already have neither a good class heal nor harmonize in any way with heavy armor - what should sorcs be allowed to do? What should be it's way to defend or deal damage?

Take away the shield and they need mobility even more. But you won't give them that.
Take away the mobility and they need shields even more. But people already complain about that.
Take away the delayed burst and you have a weaker NB.

What shall it be?

Always exagerrate this much? i didnt say i cant catch. You have streak you have shields and stuns and range add this a snare removal yeah so fair.

How do you people say " shields cant take on ten people so it sucks"? if its useless against one or two enemies okay im fine buff it. but to expect to tank 5 people successfully.. wow you want everything.

Funny tho.. acting like a victim. Like sorc doesnt have anything.
Second edit: yeah streaking thru bumpy roads sucks. They should fix that. But no way that it is a terrible escape.

And exactly this is what makes it a terrible escape. That and the whiplash effect.

BTW there are other ranged stuns. Don't know what you're up to with mentioning that. Plus there are snares and stuns added to gap closers.

But if you can catch a sorc, what's the issue here? What is the purpose of an escape skill that can
a ) be outsprinted
b ) can easily be nullified via gap closers ?

And also, has it ever occured to you that there is also a large section of sorcerer-players that can't rely on shields? You know, those with no use for their class skills, except 3-4 (in which one is only there for passive use)?

At last a quote from a thread about nightblade escape skills, a response that got good agreements:

Killset wrote: »

I think everyone is missing the actual point. You feel you are entitled to “secure the kill against a competent NB player.” You are not. There are a lot of powerful escape mechanics in this game and I for one am glad for it. PvP would suck if death were a forgone conclusion the split second a bigger group, better player, better build, whatever, layed eyes on you.

Why shouldn't that count for other classes too?

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

RedVyperOfDorne wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

RedVyperOfDorne wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Kayotic wrote: »

Ya are we not gonna address that magicka sorcs are being excluded from end game content,?

Yeah. Most progression guilds demand absurd DPS parses nowadays (minimum 40-45k), which can be achieved by magblades and... that's it. Yes, there's the odd youtuber using 3M dummy, Lover stone, Zaan (!!!) and other cheese tricks that can achieve that damage, but that's an exercise of futility, no real guild lets you use cheese tricks in real content.

Stamina DPS? No, because in trials they are gimped.
Magicka? Only NBs because they set the standard.

Magsorcs? Used 1 out of 8 DPS for progression content. YAY!

Well, looking at the half full glass, in progression trials:

- 7 NBs
- 1 Magsorc
- 0 (DPS) Templar
- 0 (DPS) DK

So we should be "happier" than the last two...

There's only a few small tweaks that put magsorc, magden and magplar behind mageblade from ranged. Unfortunately its the other kit that mageblade bring. All of those toons can pull easily 45k on a 6m with no cheese, just takes practice. Unfortunately you can pick up a blade and hit that damage without much practice.

Can you give me a link of a video with a Msorc pulling alone 45k with no buffs and no cheese-ing ?
What practice? Msorc is by far the easiest PVE mag spec in game lol

Can't you look yourself or jump in a discord with some end game players to see that msorcs are pulling 45-48k 6m solo, depending on crits, frag procs and vuln uptime.

ANY class is as easy as you want to make it. Every class will perform better in both DPS and sustain if you use a dynamic rotation, which closes the gap on class difficulty. Saying classes are easy is just because you play a static, dot overcast rotation.

I insist, paste us here a vid of your claimings so we can ALL learn from you and him.
Dont tell me there's no vid of such performance but only logs on disc..

I have only found a very ancient video of him. But it did not show anything relevant to here.

RedVyperOfDorne wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

RedVyperOfDorne wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

RedVyperOfDorne wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Kayotic wrote: »

Ya are we not gonna address that magicka sorcs are being excluded from end game content,?

Yeah. Most progression guilds demand absurd DPS parses nowadays (minimum 40-45k), which can be achieved by magblades and... that's it. Yes, there's the odd youtuber using 3M dummy, Lover stone, Zaan (!!!) and other cheese tricks that can achieve that damage, but that's an exercise of futility, no real guild lets you use cheese tricks in real content.

Stamina DPS? No, because in trials they are gimped.
Magicka? Only NBs because they set the standard.

Magsorcs? Used 1 out of 8 DPS for progression content. YAY!

Well, looking at the half full glass, in progression trials:

- 7 NBs
- 1 Magsorc
- 0 (DPS) Templar
- 0 (DPS) DK

So we should be "happier" than the last two...

There's only a few small tweaks that put magsorc, magden and magplar behind mageblade from ranged. Unfortunately its the other kit that mageblade bring. All of those toons can pull easily 45k on a 6m with no cheese, just takes practice. Unfortunately you can pick up a blade and hit that damage without much practice.

Can you give me a link of a video with a Msorc pulling alone 45k with no buffs and no cheese-ing ?
What practice? Msorc is by far the easiest PVE mag spec in game lol

Can't you look yourself or jump in a discord with some end game players to see that msorcs are pulling 45-48k 6m solo, depending on crits, frag procs and vuln uptime.

ANY class is as easy as you want to make it. Every class will perform better in both DPS and sustain if you use a dynamic rotation, which closes the gap on class difficulty. Saying classes are easy is just because you play a static, dot overcast rotation.

I insist, paste us here a vid of your claimings so we can ALL learn from you and him.
Dont tell me there's no vid of such performance but only logs on disc..

I have only found a very ancient video of him. But it did not show anything relevant to here.

Lol, you think me posting a video of a dummy hump is going to make you feel better about yourself? What about a CMX post, saves me wasting my time.

I don't even have the best magsorc dummy parses but they are certainly over 45k.

Then it shouldn’t be an issue to share a combat metrics shot with us.